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Geek Culture / Will any RTS ever match up to Starcraft?

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 15th Aug 2006 17:54
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Kind of my opinion here, but has anyone noticed the lack of good RTS games nowadays. You would think that there would have been some great advances in the Genre, and admittedly the graphics have gotten nicer, but gameplay seems to be lacking. I still play online all the time and have to admit that for a game from 1998 I was suprised to see over 60,000 players online for Starcraft. Heck there are MMORPG's that came out in the last few years that don't have that many people on. I guess there is a reason it's the #3 best seller all time for the PC and #1 for RTS's.

Some I have liked but don't quite match up.

Warcraft III- good game but the units mean nothing, first to a lvlv 6 hero wins.

1602- Brilliant game but the computer is not very bright and online no existant.

Pharoah - good game but way to slow to make good multiplayer.

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indi
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Posted: 15th Aug 2006 17:56
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starcraft in koreaaaaaaaaaaaa pk pk pk pk pk attracts one of the highest competition prizes still today in the yearly gaming competition they have.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 15th Aug 2006 17:58 Edited at: 15th Aug 2006 17:58
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Starcraft is largely the reason that Korea computerized so quickly.

[Edit]
Funny coincidence indi


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 15th Aug 2006 17:59
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Yeah I know it is credited for stabilizing their economy, there was a book written called Starconomics on the subject, which I am yet to read.

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Hawkeye
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Posted: 15th Aug 2006 18:03
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I dunno, I'd rather play AoE2:C rather than starcraft, but that's just me...


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Fallout
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Posted: 15th Aug 2006 18:17
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Were there any expansion packs or cool things for Starcraft? When I played it I remember it being quite good, but nothing worth shouting about. I think the next biggest RTS will be that one written by the dude who made Total Annihilation. Looks pretty hardcore. Can't remember what it is. hehe. I still find the RTS genre pretty dull, with its mathematically pre-defined combat (unit A beats unit B).

Hopefully one day someone will put together and RTS that puts the strategy back into the genre. The Total War series, although not really pure RTSs are still the only RTS type game I can think of where strategy is everything. In my opinion, much better than games like Starcraft.

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Hawkeye
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Posted: 15th Aug 2006 18:20
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There was Broodwars, which added two or three units per species and some tilesets (?) Didn't really think it was worth it.


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 15th Aug 2006 18:36
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Quote: "Hopefully one day someone will put together and RTS that puts the strategy back into the genre. The Total War series, although not really pure RTSs are still the only RTS type game I can think of where strategy is everything. In my opinion, much better than games like Starcraft."


I loved the Total War series, but did not include it as I think of it as a turn based strategy though combat can be real time.



Quote: "There was Broodwars, which added two or three units per species and some tilesets (?) Didn't really think it was worth it."


Broodwars was OK, but most people online still play classic as Brood unbalanced the game with the Lurker and the medic.

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John Y
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Posted: 15th Aug 2006 19:49
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Dawn of War is better than StarCraft! 5 playable races (soon to be 7) all different, and beautfully rendered. Although, I still reserve a piece of my for WarCraft 2, Cossacks 2 Back to War and Age of Empires 2.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 15th Aug 2006 19:58
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You can't make a game "better" then StarCraft because then you'd just be using the same formula. But you can make a game that's "different" from StarCraft.

And yeah Cossacks kicks ass.
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 15th Aug 2006 20:01
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Quote: "Dawn of War is better than StarCraft! 5 playable races (soon to be 7) all different, and beautfully rendered. Although, I still reserve a piece of my for WarCraft 2, Cossacks 2 Back to War and Age of Empires 2."


Ill have to find a demo of DoW thanks, though the number of races means nothing it all comes down to balance and gameplay. I played AoE 1 and 2 a bit but never found them up to snuff with Starcraft. Another game I really liked that was a mix was Savage, a team based game where someone is the commander playing a RTS and the others are in a 1st/3rd person game where they can attack enemies or buildings, collect resources as an extra "drone" for the commander. The commander is responsible for putting up defenses and advancing tech for the other players to use in the melee.

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Lucifer
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Posted: 15th Aug 2006 21:28
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I think generals is one of the best rts games, it's fun to play it on lan

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Phaelax
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Posted: 15th Aug 2006 22:08
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Quote: "Will any RTS ever match up to Starcraft?"

yes, because starcraft sucks. There's rumors going around right now about Blizzard working on a new rts game, possible starcraft 2.

Quote: "I dunno, I'd rather play AoE2:C rather than starcraft, but that's just me..."

aoe2 was my favorite. though you can never replace the amusement of warcraft 2.

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Mattman
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Posted: 15th Aug 2006 22:57
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Yeah, Blizzard put up a job position for someone well versed in Warcraft and Starcraft series.

I have Warcraft 3 and Starcraft, with expansions, and never got the hang of starcraft. I prefer warcraft, although I lost my TFT disc and haven't played in months

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 15th Aug 2006 23:40
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Quote: "I still find the RTS genre pretty dull, with its mathematically pre-defined combat (unit A beats unit B)."

I may have not played an RTS in a long time, but I do remeber how not true that was, at least for some of the warcraft series. There are IDEAS behind RTS's, I remember taking down strongholds with only a handful of people by manuvering them in such a fashion to increase their usefulness.

The point is that an RTS is not just a beats b combat, it is the fight to survive with less then perfect forces. Yes, you can play the massive army tactics, but you can also play the defensive, you can play in a covert fashion, and those that employ such tactics are much harder to deal with then those with a massive army.

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Xenocythe
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Posted: 16th Aug 2006 02:59
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No.

Starcraft Broodwar is the pwnsinator. I have it. My bro has it. My bro's freinds have it. My freinds have it. The basic point, its a good game.

Broodwar was a great adition to Starcraft. They added lurkers. And ghosts (I think they added them in broodwar, those are the guys who nuke and go invisible).



Starcraft is amazing for its uniqueness and quality.

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Dave J
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Posted: 16th Aug 2006 03:13
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Quote: "Starcraft is amazing for its uniqueness and quality."


Or more importantly, lastability. It's one of the only games I can go back to and play again every couple of months.


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indi
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Posted: 16th Aug 2006 03:45
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cash thats trippy

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 16th Aug 2006 03:56
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Quote: "Broodwar was a great adition to Starcraft. They added lurkers. And ghosts (I think they added them in broodwar, those are the guys who nuke and go invisible)."


Ghosts are in the core game, I like brood wars but the Lurkers and combat medics put the protoss at a huge disadvantage as these pieces are easily explotied especially the medic.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 16th Aug 2006 06:47
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It's quite fun playing Starship Troopers-like mods too online...Zerg bugs vs marines!
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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 16th Aug 2006 08:35
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I like Warcraft 2 a lot and Warcraft 3 is pretty good. They all bother me with their build orders though. What was particularly fun was C&C Red Alert and Red Alert 2 before EA raped the series by closing Westwood. Just for kicks my friend and I would set up an online game and build like 500,000 conscripts. It lagged so bad and we actually found a limit for unit selection in a C&C game, it was amazing.

Dawn of War is cool too. I've always wanted to try Armies of Exigo.

Speaking of Warcraft 2, who remembers teh Disco?


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Van B
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Posted: 16th Aug 2006 09:27
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I think what makes Starcraft so good is the balance, the balance is just perfect. Like you can keep your money and go for spaceships while an opponent buys all ground troups, then still have a decent battle. You don't get that balance in C&C games, there's always one tank that owns everything, or a particular tactic that never fails. I'd say it was a bit more like the original Warcraft, that had great balance too because the units were all pretty much the same - but you always had really long battles.

Some of the old 2D RTS's were great, what was that mad one with the wizards and tetris style bridge building? - about the same time as starcraft, you had to utilize certain elements like wind or fire.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 16th Aug 2006 09:43
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One thing that never seemed to fail in Warcraft was 9 catapults with some ground troop protection. Their range was greater than any enemy unit and I could obliterate an entire orc village without them ever really noticing.

I could do a similar thing with Battleships (the big flying ones) in Starcraft. Once I had 9 of those, and some ground to air protection, I could take out pretty much anything. Once again, their range and power was so great that I couldn't go wrong.

Mind you, this is only against the computer. I still saw it as an AI weakness.


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indi
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Posted: 16th Aug 2006 11:03
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another great starcraft, warcraft trick.

amass a lot of flying ships and bundle them into one area.
take one and patrol it along a line within your base.
connect it to a shortcut key so you can grab it again.
connect all flying troops to this patrolled ship.


Here is the tricky bit.
Send the patrolled ship into the enemy. what happens is the rest of your ships bundle behind them.
when your front ship is killed the linking is broken and the rest of the ships start attacking.
It allows you to micromanage about 30 - 40 ships very tightly, the downfall is ranged attacks, but hardly anything survives after an attack like this.

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Saikoro
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Posted: 16th Aug 2006 11:10
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I love starcraft. i also found a nice strategy using massive armies of Dark Templars to charge and destroy invisible seeing units, then destroying production facilities and tearing away an entire headquarters. A "friend" stole my SC CD's, but the game was so worth it I went and bought it again, and it's definitely one of the funnest games of all time. Huge lastability.


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Van B
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Posted: 16th Aug 2006 11:29 Edited at: 16th Aug 2006 11:36
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They should make a StarcraftDS - that would be awesome, online 4-player skirmishes ahoy!, it'd be bigger than Elvis.

It's bound to happen eventually, the DS is the exact handheld for 2D RTS games, it annoys the teeth out of me when I have £29.99 waiting to pay for a game that nobody's into making just because Diablo on Playstation didn't make Blizzard millionaires, boo-freakin-hoo. Advance Wars DS is great, but it's not Starcraft, it's not even C&C.

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Van B
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Posted: 16th Aug 2006 11:34
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Great minds and all that!

This is a spoof mockup, but if Blizzard want my kidney they better start taking notice (there's quite a bit of demand for StarcraftDS it seems).



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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 16th Aug 2006 15:54
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Quote: "i also found a nice strategy using massive armies of Dark Templars"


That is one of the best things about Starcraft, you can choose any unit and build a strategy around it from an SCV rush to Goon march all the way to Mutalisk waves and still win if your strategy is sound. If your strategy stinks 15 battlecruisers will delay your defeat for about 30 seconds.

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Dot Merix
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 08:40
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LOTR: Battle for middle earth isnt bad, but it aint no starcraft.. I love starcraft, nothing will ever match up to it's greatness in my opinion..

I wish companies would start realizing the potential in releasing new versions of older games, a starcraft remake would be fantastic, a final fantasy 7 remake would be amazing and a chrono trigger remake would make me pee my pants with excitement...

They could be making lots of money, no idea why they wont do it.. I'm so dissapointed that square-enix sent that cease and decist order to those guys who were trying to make a chrono trigger remake, especially considering so far square enix has no plans on recreating it..

You just watch though.. Bill gates saying halo 3 will help destroy the ps3, and then square enix will come along and release final fantasy 7 and chrono trigger remakes for the ps3, which in my opinion would DEFINATELY make the ps3 a very strong contender in these next gen wars.

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Van B
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 09:33
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FF7 and ChronoTrigger are not that well known, not amongst casual gamers, games like Halo3, the next GTA games, Farcry - and all those driving games, really the PS3 needs to get the next gen GTA game as soon as possible - it's the best chance it has to wipe the smirking smirky face of Gates.

Not that I care, I'll be too busy playing tennis on the Wii to worry about which next gen console is gonna win the war .

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 14:32
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I LOVED Chrono Trigger. I downloaded a SNES emulator when I lived in Korea and played that game to DEATH. I must have played it all the way through 5 times, keeping my same characters each time.


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Dark Eternity
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 14:43
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Quote: "FF7 and ChronoTrigger are not that well known, not amongst casual gamers, games like Halo3, the next GTA games, Farcry - and all those driving games, really the PS3 needs to get the next gen GTA game as soon as possible - it's the best chance it has to wipe the smirking smirky face of Gates.

Not that I care, I'll be too busy playing tennis on the Wii to worry about which next gen console is gonna win the war"


FF7 is an amazing game and would be the only reason for me to get a ps3. GTA IV is coming out on xbox 360 on the same day as for the ps3 so Gates will still be laughing.

I agree though i wont care, i will be either on red steel, LoZ or Metroid Prime 3 at the time

anyway back to RTS has anybody tried company of heroes beta or Empire Earth?

Scorched Skies is waiting,can you help

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 15:16
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It's funny, I played Starcraft last night for a few hours and it still amazes me just how good it still is, and the graphics are still quality in my opinion. I happened to take a look at the case and had a laugh at (minimum 90 Mhz) to run the game I think we could run that on a watch now.

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Van B
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 18:19
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FFIII on DS looks great, just what people are looking for on a handheld... But really I've never been a big fan of turn based combat so tend not to bother with them.

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Dark Eternity
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 20:17
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yeah FFIII does look incredible, i reckon that beats the PSP for graphics there. but back to RTS: when is the next starcraft meant to be coming out? it kept getting delay after delay didnt it?

Scorched Skies is waiting,can you help

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 21:36
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Quote: "it kept getting delay after delay didnt it?"

As far as I know there has never actually been a Starcraft II in the works. There was a game called Ghost a FPS but I think Blizzard pulled the license for the people developing it.

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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Aug 2006 01:42
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Blizzard can only let people down if they make a StarCraft II. How can they fill the shoes of the most successful RTS in history? They can't--- the fans WILL be letdown, even if the sequel is superior.

That's too bad really.


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Gowmars
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have any of you guys seen this video for starcraft 2? It shows starcraft gameplay in 3D. Do you think its real?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3980165796053569246&q=starcraft+2

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Hobgoblin Lord
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It's a mod being made with the warcraft III engine I believe, I have read a few things on it but first vid I have seen. Certainly not up to blizzard snuff and alot of the art and sounds are just ripped right from regular starcraft. I would like to give it a go however looks neat but there is nothing new in there.

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Steve J
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I don't know why star craft is so popular. I preferred c&c.

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Drew G
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Posted: 24th Aug 2006 07:15
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One game that never gets old on single player would be Red Alert 2. That game rocks offline, online, and lan.

I'd buy it, it's only $10. It came out 6 years ago, and the graphics are still good.
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 24th Aug 2006 17:18 Edited at: 24th Aug 2006 17:19
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Quote: "best rts ever"


How the heck can you call a game the best RTS ever from a cinematic. Graphics are great and all, but gameplay makes an RTS exceptional not tanks rendered with 4096x4096 images, and though I liked C&C it has never been on the same level as Starcraft in my opinion. Since this video does not show me anything but cool graphics I shall withold judgement as to where it fits in the RTS Echelon till after I play it.

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Xenocythe
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Posted: 24th Aug 2006 17:23
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The 3D Starcraft is the new Starcraft. Personally, I think its a rather bad idea. Its a whole new style of playing.

There will never be a better RTS, Warcraft was alright, actually, Warcraft was freakin amazing, but Warcraft Multiplayer does not compare to Starcraft.


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Medieval Coder
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Posted: 24th Aug 2006 17:28 Edited at: 24th Aug 2006 17:29
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It does have a pretty good plot from what I can tell from the movie...looks a little like a mix of starcraft and halo 2/3. There was a bug in there eating crystals which made me instantly think of starcraft. However...i doubt it will have online play....

Edit: Warcraft is no where near being as good as starcraft!


What would be cool is if everyone here helped to create a RTS remake of starcraft in 3d!

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 24th Aug 2006 18:06
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Quote: "The 3D Starcraft is the new Starcraft."


Where did you find this information? link please. Blizzard posted a release before saying it was a fan based work using the Warcraft III engine, but they were letting it progress. Heck that's how we actually got Starcraft was operation Can't Wait Any Longer, a fan group that pushed starcraft along and was later honored with a cheat code.

Quote: "Edit: Warcraft is no where near being as good as starcraft!"


Depends on the Warcraft I, no way. II was pretty good and the building block for Starcraft. III looks great but the heroes make the game so overpowered that it loses one of the best aspects of Starcraft, game balance.

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Medieval Coder
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Posted: 24th Aug 2006 18:57 Edited at: 24th Aug 2006 18:58
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I think we may be interested in this!!!

http://www.blizzard.com/inblizz/contests/artcontest2006/

I wasnt able to really read it but its a contest that ends on september 12 2006

Edit
"Submissions will be accepted until 11:59 PM PST September 17, 2006. "

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Steve J
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haha, you guys don't know the c&c storyline. Not only does c&c pwn all other games, this new version pwns to the extremes. Trust me, I am pre-ordering the collector version=D

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Jeku
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Posted: 24th Aug 2006 22:11
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Did you get the C&C Decades anthology that was released this year? It was cool--- had all of the C&C games and all their expansion packs in a single package. Great deal.


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 24th Aug 2006 22:19
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Quote: "haha, you guys don't know the c&c storyline. Not only does c&c pwn all other games, this new version pwns to the extremes. Trust me, I am pre-ordering the collector version=D"


Actually yes I do know the storyline, RTS games are my favorite genre and I buy almost all of them from pieces of crap like Swarog, to masterpieces like Starcraft. While a good storyline can make things interesting, I don't think they are the core component of a RTS they are the core of an RPG.

Quote: "Did you get the C&C Decades anthology that was released this year? It was cool--- had all of the C&C games and all their expansion packs in a single package. Great deal."


Did it include the Dune games that used their engine? I realy liked Dune 2000 I think it had a better balance then regular C&C.

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Steve J
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Joined: 22nd Apr 2006
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Posted: 25th Aug 2006 00:01
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I got it twice actually. I didnt know that EA had bought out Westwood until after I bought both those, so I bought 2 to support Westwood's endeavors, but alas evil EA bought them out.

@Hobgoblin: I was referring to Medieval Coder actually.

Quote: "It does have a pretty good plot from what I can tell from the movie...looks a little like a mix of starcraft and halo 2/3. There was a bug in there eating crystals which made me instantly think of starcraft. However...i doubt it will have online play...."


Besides, I am pretty sure that C&C came out before starcraft.

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