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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Orwellian? You decide.

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Steve J
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 23:34
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They shouldn't have had access to the plane, but they did.

http://www.milkpaton.com/
http://phoenixophelia.com
SteveJ, less, and less Controversial!
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Saikoro
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 23:34
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Quote: "Steve, terrorists (foreign ones with boxcutters) wouldn't have access to the building would they?"

Right, in the same way terrorists wouldn't have access to a plane!! Oh wait...


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 9th Sep 2006 23:36 Edited at: 9th Sep 2006 23:49
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how so? they are not on the flight manifests, or in any autopsy reports. all of which I submit are fake anyway. A plane hits the pentagon, vaporizes into thin air, yet they found human dna of all the people?

There were no terrorists, don't you get it? Its a FEAR machine for your consumption

and

Quote: "But please, tell me the key missing ingredient."

Steve, dont answer me?

Its 9/11 - but its FAKE 9/11 Ts=SQRT(Df/16)
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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 00:40
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@CR - Did you even take a look at the debunking sites that were posted? Or are you more keen to believe what you want to believe, rather than what may be the truth? Many of these so-called facts are just coincidence IMHO--- and yes, I looked at the information from both sides here.


http://www.codercafe.com - My blog
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Grandma
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 00:45
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There is one thing though that i find interesting, why does everyone that doesn't believe there is a conspiracy DEMAND overwhelming evidence to support it when they seemingly demand little to nothing from the official explanation of the events?

Where is YOUR evidence? <--- I like that question, one of my favorites.....never been answered though. I'm hoping for a convincing answer and the "confession" tape is hardly convincing for three main reasons.

1. Terrorists are know to take responsibility for just about everything in order to gain "respect".

2. May be a fake, even how they recovered it seemed suspicius. The tape was found in the city of Jalalabad and when did soldiers get the task of watching every single tape the would come across? Even so, the tape had horrible quality and if it came straight from the original tape the quality should be better.

3. Bin Laden was a known CIA asset in the 80's, who's to say he doesn't work for CIA anymore?

point 2 and 3 are more or less irrelevant because point 1 is conclusive enough to make the tape not very convincing.

But all-in-all i don't think this debate is really going anywhere. Most people here have made up their minds and there is nothing to change it except some uber hard new evidence like the release of the 84 tapes the pentagon quickly snatched or the recovery of the 7 allegedly broken black boxes (wich are red).

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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 00:59
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Ok, if you American guys are so adamant that your own government has no ethical qualms about killing 3000 of its own people, why are you still there? Why don't you move? Especially those of you in New York. How do you know it won't happen again?


http://www.codercafe.com - My blog
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Izzy545
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 01:28
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Jeku> That's a great point, I for one if I did believe it was the governments fault, feel that as a citizen of America it's my responsibility not to run away when things start going wrong with the government. It's our duty to stay and fix it, because the U.S.A. has potential to be the best country in the world.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 01:28
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To be honest, we can certianly say the story isn't of the greatest truth, and what we see to us only can be linked to the US government, it could be the second Reichstag and USA could be doomed to a Nazi clone...Or there could be something else, keep a wide eye open and you'll see what smells funny, but not make the exact conclusions, I believe it has something to do with the US government, but I could be wrong. But the laws of physics/science there are clear to me, a plane suddenly vapourising, the remains of the building more of a cruise missle damage, than an Aeroplane, what is most likely thermite being detonated in the building making it collapse, rather than the image of the plane.

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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 01:32
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@Musashi - Why don't you watch Loose Change again and read http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html at the same time. That's what I'm doing now.

It goes over every single scene in the film and how a lot of it is garbage. Interesting


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 01:40 Edited at: 10th Sep 2006 01:40
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I started reading it, but its a bit late and I've got the flu (I doubt the computer is helping the migrane either ) so I'm gonna look later, I know Loose Change is 100%, it was mentioned in this thread, lets hope that link shows what is true and what isn't. Hopefully a whole 100% true story will emerge from somewhere .

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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 02:06
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This is great---- I've been following the movie and reading from this site, up around nearly the half-mark spot in the film (which is 1 hour 30 minutes). The thing I like about this "guide" to Loose Change is how the author isn't of the stereotypical conservative, Fox News lover that the conspiracy theorists like to call the people who don't believe in the theory. It's great so far.


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 03:17 Edited at: 10th Sep 2006 05:40
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Quote: "@CR - Did you even take a look at the debunking sites that were posted? Or are you more keen to believe what you want to believe, rather than what may be the truth?"

Yes and Im still looking at all sites of both types - go back and read all of your posts in this thread, and tell me what type of sites you are looking at only. I have already stated way above that I dont claim to know what indeed did happen, but that I know what didnt.

Quote: "Ok, if you American guys are so adamant that your own government has no ethical qualms about killing 3000 of its own people, why are you still there? Why don't you move? Especially those of you in New York. How do you know it won't happen again?"

I have often thought of that, but I come back to the same conclusion: No where is safe. Their plan is world domination, so what good would it do to run. Pardon my french, but f*ck that, yeah? I was born in NYC and I'll frigging die in NYC if I have to - these bastards arent taking sh*t without a fight. Make fun of that statement if you like, but I swear on all thats sacred, including my 6 month old daughter's life, I'll fight these scum until my last breath - for my daughter, and for my country's sake.

LOOSE CHANGE IS ONE OF 300 MILLION Web pages on the topic. I have already stated I have issues with aspects of that film. Go watch any of the countless others in the link set I posted.

http://www.mod2software.com/911/911rsk.zip

EDIT: In order to understand me, and my mindset, if you care, 9/11 is merely a stepping stone towards world domination (the US Empire). Please watch Alex Jones' films TerrorStorm, and 911 martial law - to get an understanding of where I am coming from. We can debate the particulars until we are all blue in the face but there is a bigger picture here - and its not only an American issue, its A WORLD ISSUE. The talk of nuking Iran is already going on, and it sounds alot like the Iraqui bullshit "they got nukes" "they got wmd's" etc etc. What if that happens? WWIII? Russia and China get involved? What then? We all lob nukes at one another? Then what? F*ck sake.

Its 9/11 - but its FAKE 9/11 Ts=SQRT(Df/16)
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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 03:43
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So what are you doing to fight it? You said you'll fight until your last breath. Posting links on a game dev forum doesn't seem like the best way to "fight the power" so to speak.

Quote: "go back and read all of your posts in this thread, and tell me what type of sites you are looking at only."


Okay I just did, and I am very clearly looking at sites from both sides of the story. Hell, I even sat through the 1.5 hour "documentary" that had errors every 10 seconds.

I haven't made up my mind yet, dude, so just chill. I'd rather take into account different versions and polar opposites first.


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 04:04
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Quote: "So what are you doing to fight it? You said you'll fight until your last breath. Posting links on a game dev forum doesn't seem like the best way to "fight the power" so to speak."

Lets see, I have been spreading the word to everyone I know and meet that "hey, there is a problem here with this story, go and investigate for yourself". A game dev website is but one place to do so, and recall, and recall clearly, I didnt start the 9/11 convo in this thread, lest anyone forget.

Quote: "Okay I just did, and I am very clearly looking at sites from both sides of the story. Hell, I even sat through the 1.5 hour "documentary" that had errors every 10 seconds."

which docum would that be? I dont hink anyone on either side of any discussion would describe the other side's info as "errors every 10 seconds" unless of course they were biased and had no intention of hearing anything other than their own predetermined rhetoric.

Quote: "I haven't made up my mind yet, dude, so just chill. I'd rather take into account different versions and polar opposites first."

I am quite chill, and if I was emotional at all it wasnt directed at anyone except the outter situation. Are you attempting to raise a false sense of chaos or flamebait in this thread? If so that'd be highly telling of the lack of confidence in your position, wouldn't it?

Its 9/11 - but its FAKE 9/11 Ts=SQRT(Df/16)
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Saikoro
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 04:26
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AUP:
Quote: " *
3.1 Do not upload, post, transmit or otherwise make available any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortuous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy (up to, but not excluding any address, email, phone number, or any other contact information without the written consent of the owner of such information), hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable


Due to continuous problems the following subjects are also banned from discussion on all of our forums:
#
3.8 Talk about any form of pro or anti government sentiments, irrespective of which government"



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CattleRustler
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 05:01 Edited at: 10th Sep 2006 05:10
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Saikoro

Quote: "3.1 Do not upload, post, transmit or otherwise make available any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortuous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy (up to, but not excluding any address, email, phone number, or any other contact information without the written consent of the owner of such information), hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable"

was not done by anyone in this thread

Quote: "Due to continuous problems the following subjects are also banned from discussion on all of our forums:
3.8 Talk about any form of pro or anti government sentiments, irrespective of which government""

no one in this thread spoke about any particular government. the illuminati, bohemian grove, skull and bones 322, and the New World Order are not governments

Nice try tho. Go back and try to find another way to suspend the laws of physics for a day.

looking back on your post history in this thread I have but one comment: Pathetic.

Your latest attempt is the worst yet. seriously, have you no shame? Either COME WITH FACT - OR - GET THE F*CK LOST!

Its 9/11 - but its FAKE 9/11 Ts=SQRT(Df/16)
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Oddmind
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 05:11 Edited at: 10th Sep 2006 05:14
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Cattle I agree with the use of a physics equation but exactly what point are you measuring on the tower? The very top never even really touched the ground, as the rubble was hundreds of feet high.

I believe the equation for time your using would also need to include the negative gravity of 9.81 m/s squared

With this coming in to play (assuming gravity was active on 9/11)

The final velocity would be much greater, and assuming velocity at second 0 was indeed 0, final velocity would be 98.1 metres/second.

the equation you shouldve used was T(s)= (Vf - Vi)/ a (m/s^2)

I'm getting almost exactly 10 seconds, though the initial velocity was most likely not 0 when the started measuring from the footage. Parts were already moving inside building up energy, the speed in a vacuum could've been much lower.

then given the amount of air taken out by the fire there well couldve been a "controlled demolition" effect in parts of the building.

Steel frame my ass, i definately dont agree, but I also disagree with your choice of equation... By forgetting the simple rule of acceleration due to gravity in any freefall situation quite scared me. I hope someone else caught this.

the collapse of a building has many other forces at work, some cancel out each other, despite the fact that this really wasn't much of a freefall problem, as forces under the building were also acting against the top.

I'd say consult a demolition expert and ask him how to go about proving your statement.

Don't get me wrong I think 9/11 has much more to know but this was a lousy attempt at turning people.

take a look at this, i count to 16 before smoke from the bottom rizes up. I dont think the top had even stopped falling yet.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6654185579912355350&q=towers%2C+collapse%2C+footage

formerly KrazyJimmy

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Saikoro
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 05:11
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Quote: "was not done by anyone in this thread"

I wish i could quote it but there are kiddies around. But I'm sure vulgarity is alright for you?

Quote: "
looking back on your post history in this thread I have but one comment: Pathetic."

If you want to start accusing me of being pathetic, go ahead and prove it. If you don't like being questioned, then don't bring your opinions to the table. I have nothing against you or your beliefs or anyone elses, but if you can't think about it logically then dont think about it at all.


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 05:21 Edited at: 10th Sep 2006 05:22
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to answer saikoro first

Quote: "I wish i could quote it but there are kiddies around. But I'm sure vulgarity is alright for you?"

Oh, you meant curses? Ill fix those then.

Quote: "If you want to start accusing me of being pathetic, go ahead and prove it. "

I have. you question my facts, and ask me how, etc. I tell you to look at post X. The next we hear from you is lame aup quotes, no response of your own to fatcs whatsoever - that to me is lame and pathetic. I have nothing against you or your beliefs or anyone elses, but if you can't think about it logically then dont think about it at all.

Its 9/11 - but its FAKE 9/11 Ts=SQRT(Df/16)
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 05:25
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Quote: "the equation you shouldve used was T(s)= (Vf - Vi)/ a (m/s^2)"

its the same if you use my equation or yours

when you say
Quote: "I'm getting almost exactly 10 seconds"


thats because youre using 1368 as the height/distance, correct?

Its 9/11 - but its FAKE 9/11 Ts=SQRT(Df/16)
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Saikoro
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 05:26
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Quote: "I have. you question my facts, and ask me how, etc. I tell you to look at post X. The next we hear from you is lame aup quotes, no response of your own to fatcs whatsoever - that to me is lame and pathetic. I have nothing against you or your beliefs or anyone elses, but if you can't think about it logically then dont think about it at all."

So I saw your point and you wanted me to debate against you? I don't see where you're going with this.

And those "lame AUP quotes" are from the AUP YOU volunteered to uphold.


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CodemanV
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 05:30
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Quote: "the illuminati, bohemian grove, skull and bones 322, and the New World Order are not governments"


They will be governments (or is that a One World Governement?) if people don't wake up to their agenda.

There's also the "Statement of Principles" document from 1997 which was a manifesto for PNAC (Project For The New American Century) which is the Illuminati blueprint for global dictatorship.

Quote: "In September 2000, PNAC issued a statement "Rebuilding America's Defenses" calling for a "process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change" in US foreign policy, but fretted that domestic political conditions would not permit such a convulsion "absent some catastrophic and catalysing event - like a new Pearl Harbour". One year later, the "new Pearl Harbour" - the September 11 terrorist attacks - provided the casus belli for the "revolutionary" upheaval of US policy under Bush."


I could go on about this topic forever but this really isn't the place for me to go on a rant about the unfolding global dictatorship agenda.

Each individual needs to do their own research and come to their own individual conclusions, otherwise, by forcing an opinion on someone, we become no better than the dictators themselves.
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 05:32
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Quote: "then given the amount of air taken out by the fire there well couldve been a "controlled demolition" effect in parts of the building."

you mean in the giant gaping hole section?

Quote: "Steel frame my ass, i definately dont agree, but I also disagree with your choice of equation... By forgetting the simple rule of acceleration due to gravity in any freefall situation quite scared me. I hope someone else caught this."

This equation accounts for gravity and acceleration, its Newtons law, remember?

Quote: "I'd say consult a demolition expert and ask him how to go about proving your statement"

I'd say consult a high school intro-to-physics teacher, and ask him. This info comes from Physics doctorates, not me. I'm merely the thorn in everyones side

Quote: "Don't get me wrong I think 9/11 has much more to know but this was a lousy attempt at turning people."

your opinion. im not trying to turn anyone really, most people dont know anything other than what their gv tell them

regarding the link I will look, and get back

Its 9/11 - but its FAKE 9/11 Ts=SQRT(Df/16)
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Saikoro
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 05:34
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Quote: "most people dont know anything other than what their gv tell them"

No, most people dont even know what their gov tells them
The ignorance of America.


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 05:35 Edited at: 10th Sep 2006 06:01
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CodemanV
EXACTLY! (regarding NWO agenda)
The PNAC doc quote, while polarizing, is actually not as dastardly as it may seem, out of context. Altho I agree, it means what it says, if one reads prior to that quote, and after, its not as ominous as it sounds regarding 9/11...

Quote: "
Any serious effort at transformation
must occur within the larger framework of
U.S. national security strategy, military
missions and defense budgets. The United
States cannot
simply declare a
“strategic pause”
while
experimenting
with new
technologies and
operational
concepts. Nor
can it choose to
pursue a
transformation
strategy that
would decouple
American and
allied interests.
A transformation strategy that solely
pursued capabilities for projecting force
from the United States, for example, and
sacrificed forward basing and presence,
would be at odds with larger American
policy goals and would trouble American
allies.
Further, the process of transformation,
even if it brings revolutionary change, is
likely to be a long one, absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a
new Pearl Harbor. Domestic politics and
industrial policy will shape the pace and
content of transformation as much as the
requirements of current missions. A
decision to suspend or terminate aircraft
carrier production, as recommended by this
report and as justified by the clear direction
of military technology, will cause great
upheaval. Likewise, systems entering
production today – the F-22 fighter, for
example – will be in service inventories for
decades to come. Wise management of this
process will consist in large measure of
figuring out the right moments to halt
production of current-paradigm weapons
and shift to radically new designs. The
expense associated with some programs can
make them roadblocks to the larger process
of transformation – the Joint Strike Fighter
program, at a total of approximately $200
billion, seems an unwise investment. Thus,
this report advocates a two-stage process of
change – transition and transformation –
over the coming decades.
"



Edit:
Saikoro, I have edited my vulgarities
I do uphold the AUP. "Lame" described not the aup, but other things

Its 9/11 - but its FAKE 9/11 Ts=SQRT(Df/16)
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 05:38
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I think all of us who have questions regarding 9/11 - REGARDLESS of what side or mindset we fall on, need to join forces and do something - together. To get at the truth, whatever it may be

Its 9/11 - but its FAKE 9/11 Ts=SQRT(Df/16)
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Oddmind
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 06:30
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I had a feeling that our equations would get the same answer but of course there are different ways around the same problem.

the real question now is what to do? What could we shoot for even if it seems out of reach? What would be ourmain goal if we were to get something accomplished...

We already know who was behind it, I dont think knowing the gritty details will help anyone. More violence and finger pointing is it.

Are you saying we should get ourselves out of iraq? Keep going? I don't get what you think we should do.

formerly KrazyJimmy

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 07:05
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Quote: "There were no terrorists, don't you get it? Its a FEAR machine for your consumption"


Alot of things I can agree with, and all things I am willing to debate/research, but this seems a little far fetched.

Unless.

Al Queda and our government planned this together, this would be a planning at the top levels and have to include both Bush and Clinton given the prep time for the event. The reason I say this is as follows, though the terrorists would look good for the attack, if they are truly out to destroy us they could do much more damage to the country by saying it was not them and pointing the finger at our own government. Do I think we knew more about the attack then has been let on, yes. Could there have been explosives in the trade center, yes. Do aliens abduct people and insert probes in unwanted places, Nah even I don't buy that one.

Previous post I lost track of; Musashi. Yes the media should not be biased but it is, years ago news went from public service to ratings whore, now they spin whatever they can to get you to watch and try to outdo one another. Half the time I think the tabloids are more accurate then the junk we accept as news, that is why I said look to all sources especially those of thee far right and left because if you sift out the few points they agree on you usually have the truth their basing their story on.

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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 07:59
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Quote: "I'd say consult a demolition expert and ask him how to go about proving your statement."


Funny, this is a quote from: http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html

Quote: "he Loiseaux family, owners of Controlled Demolitions, Inc., which is widely considered to be the worlds top explosive-demolition firm, calls the idea that the WTC buildings were brought down by explosives "Ludicrous.""


Seems they already have.

Of course, a "high-school physics teacher" would know better


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 08:18
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CDI cleared the wtc and oklahoma city sites, odd, aint it?

Ill be back tomr to discuss the other points above

Its 9/11 - but its FAKE 9/11 Ts=SQRT(Df/16)
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Saikoro
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 08:26
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I wonder if CR even actually read the LooseChangeGuide, haha. It not only disproves just about all theories stated in Loose Change II, but it disproves them with actual proof.

Quote: "Errors of fact: 81
Post hoc ergo prompter hoc fallacies: 92
Assumptions and conjectures not supported by evidence: 92
Photo & video images that do not support statements being made: 48
Non sequiturs: 24
Opinions expressed on technical subjects by non-experts: 22
Anonymous sources: 19
"Straw man" arguments: 10
Overgeneralizations: 10
Arguments to authority: 3
Similes or metaphors taken as literal statements: 12
Statements misleading because incomplete quotes used: 25

Total flubs: 426"



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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 08:57
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Well, seeing as how his main argument that the US Government orchestrated the 9/11 attacks is a math formula, I'd say he hasn't looked at that site.

Here's a great audio podcast by the editors at Popular Mechanics: http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

Just hit Play on the flash thingie about halfways down the page.


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Grandma
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 11:53 Edited at: 10th Sep 2006 16:20
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Oh my, is this discussion still going?

Quote: "CDI cleared the wtc and oklahoma city sites, odd, aint it? "
lol, that instantly makes Controlled Demolitions Inc. not very trustworthy.

I just came over this 8 minute video. "Al-quaeda doesn't exist"
http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/al_qaeda_doesnt_exist.htm

@ jeku

I heard the podcast and they started with some outrageous claims without any sort of proof or examples, how am i supposed to believe what they say? They always brought forward the most crappy and loosely theories that most -real- truth seekers (or whatever i'm gonna call them) try to distance themselfes from like the airphones thing and ironically THEY said conspiracy theorists took things out of context....well so did these guys because he said airphones work while never mentioning WHEN or even how high.......yes, they do work now, but did they work back in 2001 before the net-something was buildt and at the reported altitude? They then LIED because they said (@ 10:10) and i quote "They [conspiracy theorists] are focusing on the heat of the fuel that burned from the plane and they...temperatures wich steel melts" .....Excuse me? Most focus on insider trading, WTC7, NORAD standdown, pentagon and the speed of the towers falling NOT the melting point of steel. They continued to claim that atleast 10 of the 47 inner columns were destroyed by the plane in the second tower....as Loose change guide said it *Speculation* No way of prooving that. They then continued with : "the flyffy spray-on retarding on the steel was scraped off and was actually falling off"....He was there? *speculation*. Fun fact : he mentioned "fluffy" 5 times. "If you repeat a lie often enough people will believe it"

What they said next made them not very credible to say the least, it was shere Bull. They were talking about the fameous "pull it" and they asked "a number of controlled demolision experts and companies and none of them said that "pull" was even a term used in controlled demolision"......whaaaa? Is this one even worth commenting?

Did you see what i just did? I did a loose change guide form of debunking. This podcast is just as bad as loose change is. Full of misleading comments, out of context info, lies and enormous amounts of speculation. And that was only based on a quick analysis of the first part. If i had the time and boredom i could probably do the whole podcast. *speculation*

If you hate Loose change for it's innacuracies then you should especially dislike this podcast and if popular mechanics is based of the "facts" discussed in the podcast then i'm sorry to say popular mechanics is just as bad as any of the crazy conspiracy sites.

You (Jeku) are probably an alright guy and want the truth as most people do, but as you called this podcast "great" when it is just as bad as loose change (wich you did not call great), it seems to me you are either in denial-mode or you just haven't heard the podcast with critical thinking mode -on- wich is very necessary to have -on- if you ever want to get closer to the truth.

Ofcourse i don't claim to know the full truth, but my BS detector read 80% when i listened to the podcast.

Flame me if you want, but i was just trying to point out my newly discovered facts about PM.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 13:03
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One of the science teachers I know is interested in finding the truths behind government acts, I think I will get his advice on the scientifics on 9/11 as for the rest of it, it seems we cannot clarify which is true or not because of both sides, I believe one side, but am leaving my ideas open for the other, strongly believing one side is harmful to you if it turns out you're wrong. In America you do get the 'oh the government is great and propaganda to that' sort of people and the 'Government conspiracy, the government are evil and propaganda to that' sort of people (Heck you get them everywhere), which is harmful to the truth, which is why an open mind at all times is a good strength, its when you find undeniable evidence when you can make claims about it, I think some of the loose change contain that kind of evidence and some from the site, the rest, I myself am not a 100% sure on and well, its nice to blame the government, even if it looks so damn likely, theres always the possibility of another, I know how crap Bush is, but it doesn't necessarily mean anything here. I just say keep an equal balance to both sides of the arguments and then once you have looked at enough, you should find the facts and the fiction.

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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 17:49 Edited at: 10th Sep 2006 17:56
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Oddmind, I don't know what we do next. I know Iraq and all of the excuses for it are just more lies. There's been 5 different reasons for that occupation, and meanwhile Brittish Parliament minutes show the US was going to invade iraq regardless and it was stated and quoted in early 2002. 9/11 is nothing but the pretext to all of this chaos. It's a stepping stone to invade iraq, to put inplace the "Patriot Act" (that title makes me vomit), and now they are sabre-rattling for Iran, and what next? Syria? N. Korea? Entire control of the middle east and eastern asia? Where does it end?

Jeku, how many times have I said that a)I don't buy everything in LC2, and b)that LC2 is merely 1 of countless documentaries and could be used as a starting point for reasearch? Then you say that my whole argument rests on one mathematical formula - no. It's simply one of many impossibilities and implausabilities about the official staory of 9/11. It isn't my job to put forth ALL of the evidence here, if that were the case I'd just make my own documentary. And apparently this one math formula is all that is needed because no one has yet been able to explain how a 1368 foot tower hits the ground, straight down, in 10 secs, creates a pyroclastic flow, has molten pools of metal in the bottom of the piles for a month after 9/11, without the use of Thermate and/or explosives. I don't know why you have such disdain for the opposition to the official line, but I am not here to try and force you or anyone away from their beliefs. I am simply trying to show that there are a lot of questionable issues with the official story, and that we (all of the people in the world) should not so readily accept what the power elite, the people in charge, tell us.

I think we should all remember that this is not about politics, its not about left or right or middle. Its about what the heck really happened. The US g could go a long way to dispelling all of this (as I have said before) by releasing a few videos, or giving independent scientists steel samples, couldn't they? Why havent they? There is just too much wrong with every step of this story. I don't know what happened. We can all have our theories until my cows come home, but that will get us no where. I believe its time for the DeusEx, don't you?

I turn my focus now to the wtc site today and tomorrow. I hope everything remains peaceful and calm, for the sake of this city. I highly doubt the pwnd media will cover anything other than the tight shot of the ceremonies etc. Hopefully there will be webcasts of the event by independent media, or c-span. If anyone knows about any web casts of the events this weekend please post a link. thanks.

Here is my research starter kit, in case anyone missed it:
http://www.mod2software.com/911/911rsk.zip

And yes, I have been looking at, a will still be looking at, the the "debunking" material.

Its 9/11 - but its FAKE 9/11 Ts=SQRT(Df/16)
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 19:10
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Quote: "Here is my research starter kit, in case anyone missed it:"


Cheers dude, I'll use that.

I think this is a good place to end it, lock it if you must, I say to be honest, out of all of the religious/political/'big' discussion threads I've seen, this is probaly the most sucessful, as people were mostly sensible and more open minded .

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 19:39
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yes, I think everyone realizes that this issue transcends politics, and I think everyone here has conducted themselves as such (aside from my valgarities which have been edited).

I have been reading the "debunking" sites and I have to say, it seems both sides, the opponents of the official story, and the opponents of the opponents of the official story, both put lots of time and effort and weight into heresay. I think both sides are guilty of "well if this guy said it, then it must be true". It's again why I have issue with lc2 and have stated as such many times. I don't think anyone hangs their hat on one viewpoint, nor should they. Maybe a better way to persue this whole mess is to stick to what can be seen and measured, like videographic evidence, as opposed to what people have said. I for one still have too many doubts in the official story to ever accept it, in its present form. But thats just mho.

I will lock this thread, but not until others here have their final say. I don't want to be accused of "having the last word and locking the thread"

feel free to speak your peace if you havent done so

Its 9/11 - but its FAKE 9/11 Ts=SQRT(Df/16)
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 20:03 Edited at: 10th Sep 2006 20:07
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I would like Jeku to respond to my comment before you lock this thread please. That way i know where Jeku stands or else i will wonder about that for the rest of the day, maybe even tomorrow....tormenting me. All i want to know is if he thought my response to the podcast was fair. If not we can just agree to disagree.

Maybe we can have a version 2.0 of this thread in january 2007 when loose change 3 comes out. That way the loose change 2 debunking won't hijack the thread and we can discuss version 3 as adults and collaberate to find mistakes. See how many we can find. That would be fun since there would be no "guide" that early after release.

It's basically the one subject all 3 siden can agree with as being inaccurate [CT's, Gov's and neutral's]

@ Seppuku Arts

Yeah, as i mentioned, i have been on some gazillion debates and i have to agree that this was by far the "cleanest" one.

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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 22:05 Edited at: 10th Sep 2006 22:06
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@Grandma - Your thing about the airphones isn't an issue, as they even said that most of the calls were made with the phones in the airplane seats, which we all know work.

And the melting heat issue--- almost all of the conspiracy sites I've come across make that a main issue. The other issues you're referring to are also high as well.

Quote: "He was there? *speculation*"


Honestly. The thermite is speculation, too. I don't really see where you're going with this

Quote: "They were talking about the fameous "pull it" and they asked "a number of controlled demolision experts and companies and none of them said that "pull" was even a term used in controlled demolision"......whaaaa? Is this one even worth commenting?"


ROFL - Are you serious? That is a big deal. No offense but you should get a little more educated about both sides before attempting to argue this.

I'm sure you're a good person too, I just don't see the mountains of evidence that proves the GOVERNMENT demolished the building. Especially considering the number of people that would have to be in on it. Even if the Bushter didn't know, do you realize how many insiders there would be? Hundreds if not thousands.

If they're intelligent enough to pull this off (the greatest con history has ever known) then why are they dumb enough to slip up in interviews and pull stock stunts days before? It's just not feasible. You have to take into account LOGIC, and seriously you're on a game dev forum so you should have some idea of logic

@CR - I'm glad you're taking a look at both sides before making a judgement. I would hate to have stories told to the new generation of kids that are not backed up by conclusive proof.


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 10th Sep 2006 22:32
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cool beans people.
Ill lock this now.

Maybe we can have a "physical-evidence-only" discussion in another thread at some point.

cheers people

Its 9/11 - but its FAKE 9/11 Ts=SQRT(Df/16)
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