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Geek Culture / Possibility of being sued?

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 24th Sep 2006 12:18
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If I got some music put it into a Dark BASIC game that I am making and then publish the game for free on my website and here could I be sued for using there music?


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Scraggle
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Posted: 24th Sep 2006 12:27 Edited at: 24th Sep 2006 12:28
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Not it the music was royalty free but if the music has a copyright the yes, of course you could!

There is some links to royalty free music on the Free Media thread.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th Sep 2006 12:54
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If its copyrighted, contact the makers/label or whoever is in charge, and try to get permission to use it and perhaps offer a small royalties fee, if they say no, well hard luck.

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adr
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Posted: 24th Sep 2006 12:59
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While it's technically possible that they could sue (although, unless he sells the game, what would they be claiming for?) the amount of hassle required to bring a bedroom programmer to court wouldn't be worth the costs.

Their first step would be to send you a very official sounding letter called a "Cease and Desist". It asks you in a very legally binding way to stop using their copyrighted music, or they'll take you to court. You reply (using a solicitor of course) saying you've complied, and then you hang their Cease and Desist on your wall, as a badge of honour.

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BatVink
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Posted: 24th Sep 2006 14:21
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Quote: "(although, unless he sells the game, what would they be claiming for?) "


lost revenue! Otherwise peer to peer networks wouldn't be an issue.
Putting somebody elses music into your game would be treated just the same. Otherwise I could make a freeware game and load it with as much music as I liked.

Take an example of a Sony artist. What may happen is that they pick a nominal fee - say £100,000 - and they bill you. Then you have to go to court to defend your reluctance to pay it, and come to an agreement to pay a couple of thousand quid, or settle out of court for something similar.



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Philip
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Posted: 24th Sep 2006 15:27
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ADR is right on a practical level. Its good to see that someone has read the posts I have drafted on this subject previously.

Cheer if you like bears! Cheer if you like jam sandwiches!
"I highly recommend Philip's Vector Tutorials" (RiiDii)
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Dave J
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Posted: 24th Sep 2006 15:36
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Quote: "Otherwise I could make a freeware game and load it with as much music as I liked."


I'm planning a similar game, essentially it will consist of you selecting which song to play, and then allowing you to play it. Since this game's free, I'm going to include all the music in the world, free of charge.


"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers."
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Hawkeye
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Posted: 24th Sep 2006 17:51
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Quote: "just credit the band in the credits"

And how is that supposed to help, hmm?

I'd be rather ticked off if somebody put one of my songs into a game without asking my permission, although I freely admit I'd be perfectly willing to give permission if they asked...

It's easy to say, "oh, they won't sue dear little old me..." But ask yourself - is it the right thing to do?

No.


I am but mad north north-west; when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw - Hamlet, Hamlet
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th Sep 2006 20:41
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Quote: "like im really going to contact killswitch engage if i wanted to use one of their songs in a crappy little freeware game i made that a few people might play online, seriously"


I was going to contact Nothing Records (Nine inch nails record label) to use songs from one of their albums and to name my project The Downward Sprial, although the project is only in its planning stages, its going to have my own music and has been renamed to Abeyance.

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Saikoro
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Posted: 24th Sep 2006 20:44
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Quote: "
I was going to contact Nothing Records (Nine inch nails record label) to use songs from one of their albums and to name my project The Downward Sprial"

Best album ever.


[url="http://www.phoenixophelia.com"]PhOp[/url]
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Gamedesign er20
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Posted: 24th Sep 2006 21:02
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has anyone on this forum actually ever asked a company for permission to use their copyrighted material? I'm just curious because that topic seems to go around everytime someone mentions if they would be sued.

Cocacola and Pepsi aren't that differnt. Deal with it.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th Sep 2006 22:13
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Quote: "Best album ever."


Best NIN album ever, but not the best album ever, there are a lot of albums I like better, but I did fall in love with The Download Spiral

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Steve J
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Posted: 24th Sep 2006 22:23
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Best album ever. NIN is teh god of music. THat was the best album from any band. Every song was good=)

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Steve J, less, and less Controversial!
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 24th Sep 2006 22:29
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Quote: "has anyone on this forum actually ever asked a company for permission to use their copyrighted material? I'm just curious because that topic seems to go around everytime someone mentions if they would be sued."


Yes I wrote to EA to ask permission to do a remake of Mail Order Monsters for the retro-remake competition and got a C&D

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th Sep 2006 22:29
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Wait half an hour and read me sig, 'Opeth' freaking awesome stuff, I think their album deliverance is better, I mean come on, freaking Master's Apprentice, no industrial music can hit that level without turning back into metal.

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Steve J
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Posted: 24th Sep 2006 22:31
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I asked Adrian Farnsworth, the creator of a scene in vue 5, if I could use a rendered version of his scene in a small movie production, and he let me. Nice guys, artists are.=D

http://phoenixophelia.com
Steve J, less, and less Controversial!
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Zappo
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Posted: 24th Sep 2006 23:49
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Using someone elses work without their permission is wrong and illegal. Simple as that.

I have mentioned this before in a post, but I have requested Web sites to stop publishing my work previously. Some of the work I do is paid for by customers. If someone else copies that work and uses it for their own purposes I will defend its copyright. Afterall, someone else has paid good money for it so why should others get it for free? I have never had to resort to legal C&D orders yet, a simple email explaining the situation has sufficed (so far).
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Dazzag
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Posted: 24th Sep 2006 23:56 Edited at: 24th Sep 2006 23:57
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Wrong, yes. But how old are you exactly? Don't answer that; forum rules don't allow it. But realistically if you are a kid with, probably, a little freeware game or whatever, then c'mon, can anyone here say, with complete conviction, he will be sued? Perhaps get an email saying to stop it, if it becomes popular enough. But sued?

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Zappo
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Posted: 25th Sep 2006 00:31 Edited at: 25th Sep 2006 00:35
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Erm... milk isn't copyrighted. If you share the same CD or DVD then I don't see it being much of a problem. Only one person can use it at once. If you were to copy that CD or DVD and give copies to your mates or even worse stick it online for anyone to download, then you have done something illegal and wrong.
Quote: "But realistically if you are a kid with, probably, a little freeware game or whatever, then c'mon, can anyone here say, with complete conviction, he will be sued?"

I am afraid being a kid is no excuse. You know its wrong. You know its illegal. Why risk it? He probably wouldn't get sued but what happens if the service provider that hosts the game gets sued? Do you think the Web host will grin and bare the costs or say "but he's just a kid"? Nope.
EDIT: Actually, you will probably find that all Web hosting businesses have a statement in their terms and conditions to prevent anyone hosting copyright material without the owners permission.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Sep 2006 00:56
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if its copyrighted get permission, simple, if you don't get permission, a sudden court order/sue isn't a smart thing to do, and companies general won't do it, because they'd have the hassle of paying for lawers etc. and then as a lot of people will most likely use their music in some kind of publication, whether its a home movie or an indie game and then they're gonna have the hassle of those if they discover them. So why not try the, 'would you stop using our music approach' and there done, sorted, if they continue, then considering sueing would be an option, if a company/artist does immediately sue, then they're dumb.

The simple option, if you're going to release some game on the net for free, although it wouldn't be in the interest of companies, but they can sue if they wanted to, but its not wise as they would be making a big deal over something not worth making a deal out of. Like some one drunk a bit of beer out of your glass you would kick up a huge fuss over it. They can just say stop, like telling the guy not to drink your beer. (And if he continues you hit him between the eyes )

But to be on the safe side, ask if you can have a sip of his beer before taking it.

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Zappo
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Posted: 25th Sep 2006 01:16
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Sips of beer? Bizarre
So I guess I could make a fan game based on the Matrix, use all of the audio tracks from the movie, put the entire movie itself as a cut scene at the start of the game, stick it up on the net for everybody to download and as long as it was available for free I wouldn't get sued? Naaaa.
Why are free torrent sites being shut down because they link to copyrighted movies? They don't even host them but they are being threatened with law suits. Why are peoples home pages being removed because they link to illegal MP3's? Just don't do it.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Sep 2006 01:24
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Quote: "So I guess I could make a fan game based on the Matrix, use all of the audio tracks from the movie, put the entire movie itself as a cut scene at the start of the game, stick it up on the net for everybody to download and as long as it was available for free I wouldn't get sued? Naaaa."


No you wouldn't, unless you were asked to cease and refused. Think how many Zelda, Final Fantasy, Sonic and other free fan games laying around on the net basically do the same thing, a lot aren't shut down, I don't know which ones have, but I've never heard of anyone getting sued for it.

Quote: "Why are free torrent sites being shut down because they link to copyrighted movies? They don't even host them but they are being threatened with law suits."


Because they are pirating items you buy, its exactly like walking into a store a taking it off of the shelf and walking out, not the same as using it in your own works. People use copyrighted material in showreels for their animations/movies all of the time, they haven't stolen anything. There is a differance.

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Zappo
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Posted: 25th Sep 2006 01:34 Edited at: 25th Sep 2006 01:35
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Quote: "Because they are pirating items you buy, its exactly like walking into a store a taking it off of the shelf and walking out, not the same as using it in your own works."

How is that different? You take a music track that you would normally buy and stick it in different packaging (e.g. a game). Same thing.
Quote: "People use copyrighted material in showreels for their animations/movies all of the time, they haven't stolen anything. There is a differance."

They have stolen it if they haven't got permission and are distributing those materials. Its not a different thing at all. You are providing people with something that they should have paid for, therefore you are as good as distributing stolen goods.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Sep 2006 01:52
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Quote: "How is that different? You take a music track that you would normally buy and stick it in different packaging (e.g. a game). Same thing."


So I'd play a game to hear one or two tracks off of someones online game, or watch parts of a movie in someone's fan game? It wouldn't be the same. So buying GTA :SA is the same as buying a Gun's and Roses album, soundgarden's album and Rage against the machine's album, because they have the song, no, if I wanted to use that material, I would get the material, therefore, not the same as piracy, all you are doing is using copyrighted material, although companies are entitled to sue, they wouldn't and haven't because they would say 'hang on a minute, stop that, you're using something thats mine with out permission'. Not, 'Hey that dudes got my tunes in his game, I'm calling my lawyer'.

Quote: "They have stolen it if they haven't got permission and are distributing those materials. Its not a different thing at all. You are providing people with something that they should have paid for, therefore you are as good as distributing stolen goods. "


Not really...

See the differance between these situations.

"I walk into a shop, I look around to check if no one is watching, I slip Stone Sour's new album into my jacket and walk out, when I get home, I listen to the whole album, saved me £15"

"I am running Limewire on my computer, I found Stone Sours new album zipped up nicely, I click download, later I am going to listen to it, saved me £15 and a ride into town"

"I just bought Stone Sour's new album, it would go great with the video I just made, heck it would go awesome with my CV when applying for video jobs, gotta edit that one in."

The first two are stealing, the second one is using it, okay maybe he should contact the artist/label for permission, but it isn't stealing, it isn't distributing to people who won't buy it. If you would rather look it at this way, he would be breaking the liscence with his terms of purchase, assuming there is a written liscence that is, by doing that, the 'company' would ask them to cease, if they refuse they would take legal actions, and not the legal actions straight away, like if I were to break my torque liscence my hosting an edited version of one of the source files for someone to help me, they would tell me to remove it. f he was stealing they would take legal action straight away, there is a differance.

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Zappo
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Posted: 25th Sep 2006 02:13
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Quote: "So I'd play a game to hear one or two tracks off of someones online game, or watch parts of a movie in someone's fan game?"

You're not getting the point here at all. You would be using something that didn't belong to you without permission. Illegal.
Quote: "all you are doing is using copyrighted material, although companies are entitled to sue, they wouldn't and haven't because they would say 'hang on a minute, stop that, you're using something thats mine with out permission'. Not, 'Hey that dudes got my tunes in his game, I'm calling my lawyer'."

Who do you think they get to send the C&D orders? Yep - the lawyers.
Quote: "the second one is using it, okay maybe he should contact the artist/label for permission, but it isn't stealing"

You are so wrong its not funny. Its stealing. Its illegal. Its no different to buying pirate DVDs.
Your third example is still illegal. Even if you own the CD it does not give you ownership of the music. You cannot use it in any way you want to. Whether you would eventually get sued or not, its still illegal. You cannot go round saying "don't worry about doing that illegal thing as you probably won't be punished for it". Thats rediculous.
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 25th Sep 2006 02:19
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Quote: "The first two are stealing, the second one is using it, okay maybe he should contact the artist/label for permission, but it isn't stealing, it isn't distributing to people who won't buy it. If you would rather look it at this way, he would be breaking the liscence with his terms of purchase, assuming there is a written liscence that is, by doing that, the 'company' would ask them to cease, if they refuse they would take legal actions, and not the legal actions straight away, like if I were to break my torque liscence my hosting an edited version of one of the source files for someone to help me, they would tell me to remove it. f he was stealing they would take legal action straight away, there is a differance."


No they are all stealing, perhaps said company may not choose to pursue someone who used their sound/art/whatever in a presentation style video but it is no less illegal. By the way a company has no requirement to first send a C&D letter they can sue you right out of the gate if they want you.

@Darth Vader
Contact the artist or rights owner to the material you want to use, if you are not willing to do that then you have no real desire to include the song to begin with. No matter what anyone tells you about you may or may not get sued it is still wrong to use assets you did not create or don't have permission to use. You put many people at risk besides yourself, were you to say post the game on this board TGC could be sued for YOUR criminal act, so remember there is more at stake then just what might happen to YOU.

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Jeku
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Posted: 25th Sep 2006 02:54
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I don't understand the confusion. Technically if you take someone's work without permission and use it in yours, you *can* get sued. There are no exceptions for freeware, etc.

It's pretty black & white, really.


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Darth Vader
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Posted: 25th Sep 2006 03:29
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WOW I post this message go to bed wake up and find 30 posts! Amazing...

Thanks for all the replies, I am contacting the owner of the music to get permission!
Thanks again!


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Sep 2006 19:03
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Quote: "You're not getting the point here at all. You would be using something that didn't belong to you without permission. Illegal."


I think you've missed the point, yes it illegal to use someones work without permission, as you CAN can sued, as the company is entitled to, which I have agreed with, but companies generally don't sue when they can just tell the to stop it, also, when I say cease, I don't mean a C&D order, but just to stop what they're doing.

Quote: "You are so wrong its not funny. Its stealing. Its illegal. Its no different to buying pirate DVDs."


Oops, I meant third The third one is just using them, the second is stealing.

Again, no point in my argument said that any of it wasn't illegal, but something you're not likely to get sued unless you continued after being asked to stop, I don't know why people have taken that assumption...

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Dazzag
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Posted: 25th Sep 2006 19:27
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I didn't say it was right, or doing it wouldn't be wrong. Just answering the question of possibility of being sued. And c'mon, we all know there is no way in hell a company will sue a kid for some little thing they made. Otherwise schools would be full of lawyers I'm not saying to do it, I'm just saying I don't think he would be sued (if he is a kid). If you really think that (as in going to an actual court where a judge says the kid has to pay the company money, or perhaps football stickers ) then you take yourself very seriously.

Cheers

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Philip
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 00:46
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Companies have better things to spend money on than lawyers sueing people with no money. Besides, companies worry a lot about reputation and being seen as the goliath to some little guy's david is not good reputationally speaking.

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Zappo
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 01:19 Edited at: 26th Sep 2006 01:24
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Okay, to start with many big companies have their own legal departments or lawyers on retainers. It wouldn't take any effort or cost for them to send out legal threats.

Secondly, your third point was still stealing. Whether you get caught, are asked to stop, or are hauled straight into court doesn't change that. The defense "but other people do it" won't work.

Thirdly, I am kind of shocked that people would argue that its okay for someone to use material they don't own or have permission to use. You have obviously never spent a long time creating something only to see it pirated or copied in some way. So he might not get sued, does that make it okay to break the law? To steal someones work? I have got to say, the advice stinks.

I think you also need to think about why people make freeware games. Perhaps its for the fame of it. Perhaps its in the hope that people will like them and then purchase another game by the same people/person in the future. Perhaps its to make your Web site popular and sell advertising on it. Perhaps its to put into your portfolio to get a game related job. All of these result in gains for yourself. I am not saying that Darth is making his game for any of these reasons, but most people do. Any form of personal gain aided by the inclusion of someone elses work without permission is wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
Quote: "Besides, companies worry a lot about reputation and being seen as the goliath to some little guy's david is not good reputationally speaking."

This hasn't stopped the music industry taking the parents of children to court who happen to be running P2P software on their PCs.
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BatVink
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 01:23 Edited at: 26th Sep 2006 01:26
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Quote: "has anyone on this forum actually ever asked a company for permission to use their copyrighted material?"


Yes, I got no reply, so I found some other Royalty Free music. It was a shame, but at least I know my game is legit.

Using the showreel example is a bad example! If someone sent me a reel with commercial music on it, one of my interview questions would be "Hey, you managed to work a Leo Sayer track into your reel, that's cool! Tell me how you went about authorising it?". The last thing I would want is a loose canon working for me.

The other thing you have to consider is branding, which is often more valuable than the track itself. If you put a Janet Jackson track in a zombie bloodfest of a game, they ain't going to be happy! Despite you being a teenage coder with no pocket money to spare, they may still hunt you down for a serious ticking off.

The most sound advice here is from Zappo. At the end of the day, it's stealing, no matter how you dress it up. Whether or not you get caught should be totally irrelevant. You wouldn't (I hope) nick an Xbox from Game because someone says it's only stealing if you get caught.



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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 01:58
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Quote: "Secondly, your third point was still stealing. Whether you get caught, are asked to stop, or are hauled straight into court doesn't change that. The defense "but other people do it" won't work.
"


Well, I would call it something else, I would agree that the material essentially is being used illegally, but my point wasn't to do with that...

Quote: "Thirdly, I am kind of shocked that people would argue that its okay for someone to use material they don't own or have permission to use. You have obviously never spent a long time creating something only to see it pirated or copied in some way. So he might not get sued, does that make it okay to break the law? To steal someones work? I have got to say, the advice stinks."


No one has said 'It is okay', but rather 'People don't get sued for it, even though the artists/companies are in that positon' basically answering the question.

You have said to me, I have missed that point, but to me it seems things that haven't been said are there, or you have taken what has been said entirely in a differant way, missing the point people are saying...

So, I'll come out with the point I am putting across...

"You are not likely, as it wouldn't be in the best interest of the artist/company, to get sued for using content, if they wish for you to stop using their content, not wasting money or time they can simply contact them and tell them to stop, if they were to continue, legal actions would be taken. Although you are making illegal use of their content and is considered wrong, doesn't change that the chances of getting sued straight away are the slimmest"

And if they did sue on first sight, we would hear a lot more about it, kicking up a lot of fuss, and would eventually become an issue, where artists would be sueing people left right and center for illegal use of their content, I mean they've sued sites etc. for giving away their music and thats got a huge fuss, heck Metallica shut down Napster because of it, if they were sueing people using it in products, then we'd hear more about it. However of course if something is commercial where they are making money from their content, well I'm sure the legal option would be more common to hit head on, depending on the situation effects how likely for it to be.

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Zappo
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 04:00
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I understand what you are saying and it may well be true that few people actually get sued over these things, but why say it? Why give the impression to newcomers that you can get away with it? I guess thats what I find most disagreeable.

Plus, what happens if you get a letter saying to stop using a music track? You can take it off your site, but what about all the other sites which are now hosting it? Do you have to contact all of those (some of which may be in different languages) and ask for your software to be removed? What if they don't reply, don't remove the software or you haven't found them all? You could still be held responsible for its distribution because it was illegal to begin with, and you haven't stopped it being downloaded. Like I said before, there is also the chance that site providers could have legal action against them and they sure as hell won't go down without holding on to you.

In response to your last paragraph there is good reason why you don't hear about people being sued over copyright infringements. The big companies and big organisations like those in the music industry know that the little people cannot afford to fight things in court, so they offer a way out - an out of court settlement. Its easier for everyone and still serves its purpose but without the bad publicity as the little people have basically admitted their guilt. They can no longer fight it or go to the press. Simple, not nice, but effective.
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Darth Vader
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Location: Adelaide SA, I am the only DB user here!
Posted: 26th Sep 2006 04:37
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Okay settle down everyone I didn't mean for this to become a flame war! lol!
I am going to ask the company/artist if I can use there music, and thats all there is to it! They say yes great! They say no It royalty free music for me!


http://ideal-entertainment.galekus.com
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Dave J
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 09:05
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Quote: "Besides, companies worry a lot about reputation and being seen as the goliath to some little guy's david is not good reputationally speaking."


RIAA


"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers."
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Dazzag
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Location: Cyprus
Posted: 26th Sep 2006 11:46
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God some people are so uppety. Should he use copyrighted material without consent? No. Would he get slapped on the wrist if he did? Maybe. Probably only if it became popular. Would he be sued? Again, considering I am guessing he is a kid, then c'mon. Not a chance. The other side of the coin is how hard is it to ask, plus surely the music isn't that important for your game. Dig up some royalty free.

I was just answering the question asked. "Will I get sued?". Most funny though how people get all outraged. Also very funny how we get a lot of people here seemingly with full licences of products like 3D studio max and asking simple questions about it. While still in school.... aha...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Zappo
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 12:05
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I guess its just a touchy subject for me. There has been a myth about "not getting sued if you give your software away for free" for a long time. I just didn't want people to get the wrong information. There is certainly enough of that on here
Personally I believe that people using copyrighted media without permission needs to be stopped right now. The more people that get away with it, the more people think that its okay. Then, when the big companies realise its got out of hand they come down hard on anybody and everybody. This is when people start jumping up and down complaining that "its been going on for years" and "they have suddenly changed their minds".

I am glad you are doing the right thing Darth. Let us know how you get on.
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Dazzag
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Posted: 26th Sep 2006 14:27
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Quote: "Personally I believe that people using copyrighted media without permission needs to be stopped right now"
Fair enough, and I am not arguing with that. Just voicing my opinion of how likely he would be to be sued is all.

Cheers

Ps. Nice Monkey avatar BTW

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Seppuku Arts
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Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 26th Sep 2006 18:41
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Quote: "Why give the impression to newcomers that you can get away with it? I guess thats what I find most disagreeable."


Which is why I advised that it would be best to contact the company, as thats what I would do in the situation, the reason I said it, incase any read the thread and suddenly though 'Oh crap a game I hosted has got Stairway to Heaven' essentially and also answering his question .

Quote: "Okay settle down everyone I didn't mean for this to become a flame war! lol!"


I'm calm, not much of an aggressive arguer. But you have a point, its your thread, I won't say anything more to provoke discussion.

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