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Geek Culture / What do you think of Vista?

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BluEarth Software
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 13:16 Edited at: 23rd Jan 2007 00:50
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Overall, it looks like MS wants to be like Apple...Vista's Sidebar is the same as Mac OSX 10's dashboard....The user interfacing may be cool, but it has a apple feel to it... Plus it takes 512MB just for installing Vista!!!-probably because they have all that nice imaging in MS-DOS....

For those of you who don't know about vista goto:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/default.aspx



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indi
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 13:43
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Im not sure if i like the "feature" that prevents you from changing hardware a few times before it collapses into a pile of crud. its my machine ill change if i want to.
windows have always copied mac. your claiming that only vista has copied it? afraid not.

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Lukas W
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 13:53
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Quote: "Im not sure if i like the "feature" that prevents you from changing hardware a few times before it collapses into a pile of crud."

tell me more about this. i don't think i've heard of that.

so this means that each computer is required to have its own unique copy of Vista? even if i change my hardware i need to purchase a new license?

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_Nemesis_
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 14:37
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Quote: "all that nice imaging in MS-DOS...."

What nice imaging in MS-DOS?

Anyway, think of it like this. It's been 6 years since XP was released. You can hardly expect it to run on the same spec as XP did. Even that required a PC two to three times as fast as 98 did.

Quote: "so this means that each computer is required to have its own unique copy of Vista? even if i change my hardware i need to purchase a new license?"


From what I understand, the licensing software takes a snapshot of your system when Windows is installed and basically forms an ID from it. If you change your hardware so much that this ID differs from the ID at installation, you'll get caught up in it. What I think is happening though, if the upgrades are incremental then this won't occur - it mainly just applies to a huge upgrade all at once - when the ID will share little, if any resemblance to the initial ID it creates from the hardware. - That's just my understanding anyway, I'm sure MS will release more soon.

And you're right indi, Microsoft have copied Apple in the same way that Apple has copied Microsoft - it's just not generally noticed as much. Hell, anyway - I think OSX won't last much longer than a few years, what with the coming of bootcamp.

I think the release of Vista will cause a lot of confusion and disruption amongst PC users - I know for sure however much I love Vista, I'll still be dual booting with XP until things like drivers and software compatibility are sorted.

Some say that Microsoft are sort of "forcing" (used loosely) people to upgrade, but like I say - it's been six years since we've had a Windows RTM and things change... with the rate that technology is advancing and the rate at which the cost of a computer system has dropped I think more and more people will be upgrading to Vista via the purchase of a new computer which will probably in turn make more people develop software solely for Vista to make use of these advancements.

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indi
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 14:41
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My whole business is based on unix now with OSX, no virii, no malware, nothing yet, im sure there will be one day. I doubt your statement regarding OSX will die soon.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 14:46
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It's blatantly obvious that Microsoft have some sort of deal with hardware makers, most recently with some of the graphics car makers. While vista is pretty, it doesn't introduce anything that I see warrants such specs. Does anyone remember old DOS games with decent 2D graphics? That ran on a 286? And now, you need a half-decent system to even run some games' menus without it being jerky, even though visually there's no difference.
I just think there is a worrying trend for inneficiency among software makers nowadays. Take a look at QNX, it's a realtime operation system, with a GUI that's arguably better than Windows95's. And it fits on a floppy. No fancy hardware acceleration, yet its faster too. Point made

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_Nemesis_
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 15:09
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Quote: "My whole business is based on unix now with OSX, no virii, no malware, nothing yet, im sure there will be one day. I doubt your statement regarding OSX will die soon.
"


I'm going based on what I've seen. All of the people I know who have Intel Macs (ok, granted there's only about 8 of them) have scapped OSX and gone with XP for it's "practicality, speed and support". I just don't think there'll the evidently already low demand for Mac applications will continue to decrease - I mean, just look at software such as Adobe Premier - If I recall, that used to be a hit for the Mac.

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Peter H
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 15:37
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Quote: "I just think there is a worrying trend for inneficiency among software makers nowadays"

yeah, this is my biggest worry about Vista...

i have this bad feeling that when i buy a computer they're all going to have vista on them... if they do, i think i'm going to go buy myself a copy of xp

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Benjamin
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 16:03
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Quote: "yeah, this is my biggest worry about Vista..."

Mine also. Faster processors doesn't mean you should code less efficiently.

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David R
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 16:08 Edited at: 9th Nov 2006 16:09
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I'm rather unimpressed by it, mainly. It inexplicably doesn't support alot of hardware, most of which is legacy and was supported by XP

I mean, I know that MS are 'force-feeding' a very much overdue upgrading of our hardware, but not even my C-Media PCI soundcard from 2003 is natively supported; yet is in XP.

Its truly ridiculous. I Don't expect Vista to take-off at all; mainly due to the insane reinstallation/hardware change activation stuff. Do they seriously think that stuff like that is going to help [curb] piracy?! Of course it isn't; if my version is past its reactivation quota, I'd just torrent a 'cracked' copy without the ridiculous activations

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spooky
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 16:15
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Windows XP has had all this activation stuff for years so don't understand peoples problems with it. You need to do a hell of a lot of hardware changes before it forces you to contact MS. I've changed graphics cards, hard drives, etc and never have a activation problem and yes, I am using a fully legit version.

There was some talk a couple of weeks ago that MS was to limit number of reinstalls of Vista to only ONE reinstall, but they climbed down on that rule last week ( http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/11/03/ms_vista_climb-down/ )

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David R
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 16:19
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Quote: "You need to do a hell of a lot of hardware changes before it forces you to contact MS. "


For Vista, that will be 2 major changes. And I alter the innards of my PC fairly regularly, so that's a really pathetic amount of alterations to justify reactivation.

And even with more than 1 reinstall, I reformat my main rig quite frequently too, to keep it clean of crap and running fast.

People who do similar things with their machines (which probably applies to quite a lot of 'hardcore' PC users) are going to hate this aspect of Vista; But they won't simply hate it and ignore it. They will find ways around it. This is what MS fails to realise. An unpopular policy results in a popular resolve.

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spooky
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 16:28
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Oooh, didn't know that. Done a bit of googling and came across this which explains it well;

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2006/10/26/Microsoft_clarifies_Vista_activation_to_bit-tech/

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_Nemesis_
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 16:59
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Quote: "I'm rather unimpressed by it, mainly. It inexplicably doesn't support alot of hardware, most of which is legacy and was supported by XP
"


That sounds alien to me. All of my hardware works - even without having to install the drivers. A bluetooth dongle that I couldn't for the life of my find drivers for in XP works, onboard sound works without specifying drivers - to name a few.

Also, legacy hardware is supported - you can hardly blame Microsoft for not writing drivers for EVERY piece of your hardware though.
That's the companies job!



Quote: "Quote: "I just think there is a worrying trend for inneficiency among software makers nowadays"
yeah, this is my biggest worry about Vista..."


So it's purely coincidence that it runs faster than a clean XP install for me? I don't think so...

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David R
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 17:30 Edited at: 9th Nov 2006 17:31
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Quote: "All of my hardware works - even without having to install the drivers."


Yeah, that's great 'n all, but irrelevant; my point was, hardware support on common devices that were supported under XP has inexplicably disappeared

EDIT: And I mean Out-of-the-box too, not just that the drivers don't work on Vista; the drivers aren't with Vista

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Lukas W
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 17:42
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thanks spooky for that link.

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_Nemesis_
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 17:51
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Quote: "Hardware support on common devices that were supported under XP has inexplicably disappeared
"


Well, it's unfortunate that some devices aren't going to work. All of my devices that worked out of the box on XP, work out of the box on Vista too. Apart from sound - it had to download those via Windows Update.. but that's hardly a chore and it's not exactly vital.

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Big Man
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 19:02
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Quote: "windows have always copied mac. your claiming that only vista has copied it? afraid not."


microsft probably have many times but mac users only say it loads because they are bitter about the fact that windows makes more money than make does and that windows is more popular lol

BM

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Me!
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 19:22
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I thought it was common knowledge

Intel giveth and Microsoft taketh away, I mean, half a gig ram, one gig HD, 1ghz min and 3d acceleration to run the bluddy OS??????

helloooo....sanity check? ...this a OS we are talking about, NOT the latest killer application, just the teeny (er...ok...in MS`s case ... humungus) bit of software that allows your system to provide a gui and pointer so you can click on your applications and run the odd bit of hardware THE DRIVERS FOR WHICH COME WITH THE HARDWARE...NOT THE OS , Winderz in all its incarnations does no more than what Palm OS does for example, and that doesnt need a supercomputer to run on, there have been dozens of operating systems that can run in next to nothing , GEM, Workbench, Symbian, Linux, Psion, Syllable, Palm etc, it just annoys the backside off me that every time the PC specs get half decent some idiot brings out an OS that reduces it to a crawl again, what is this? " international decade of the stunnningly overloaded computer" or something?



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David R
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 19:25
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Quote: "THE DRIVERS FOR WHICH COME WITH THE HARDWARE...NOT THE OS"


Umm.. no. When was the last time you had to install the NIC chip for a latop manually?

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Kentaree
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 19:41
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Nemesis, look at QNX, then tell me that Vista is efficicent. Most of Aero's stuff has been done for ages by Mac, and it's quite possible to do in linux aswell. Using CURRENT hardware, not using what's deemed to be next gen hardware.

Yes, it will run faster, on newer PCs, but only because it's made for that (minimum spec anyone) so it doesnt have to support older hardware. Still, what is it, 512meg for running an operating system? Don't make me laugh

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Me!
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 19:49
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umm! lemmee see!, Intel motherboard driver disk? nope thats the desktop, Acer driver updates (downloaded from their website)April 2005, ah! there you go, just cos Microbrain stick some basic default drivers and a few of the more common ones onto the disk along with winderz does not mean that they are

A...up to date
B...stable
C...correct for your MOBO

in fact if you have a older version of XP for eg and a newer motherboard then you can do yourself a huge favour by installing the drivers off the disk supplied with the mobo or the makers website if they post updates, MS ones tend to older (ie slower) "safe" default drivers when it can`t work out what it wants exactly, like I said, Saitek, Intel, Nvidia or whoever make the MOBO (or its chips) provide the drivers, NOT MicroSofty, the point being ANY OS can provide the functionality of Winedows in a fraction of the space and with far less CPU load, stop trying to invalidate a post by nit-picking.



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_Nemesis_
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 19:57 Edited at: 9th Nov 2006 20:15
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Quote: "Nemesis, look at QNX, then tell me that Vista is efficicent."


I didn't imply that it was efficient, far from it. When you see what resources can be stretched to now then it makes modern operating systems look like s**t. My point is that efficiency isn't really a problem considering for me, it performs better than XP.. an improvement.

Quote: "in fact if you have a older version of XP for eg and a newer motherboard then you can do yourself a huge favour by installing the drivers off the disk supplied with the mobo or the makers website if they post updates, MS ones tend to older (ie slower) "safe" default drivers when it can`t work out what it wants exactly, like I said, Saitek, Intel, Nvidia or whoever make the MOBO (or its chips) provide the drivers, NOT MicroSofty, the point being ANY OS can provide the functionality of Winedows in a fraction of the space and with far less CPU load, stop trying to invalidate a post by nit-picking."


I can very well see your point, but remember that it's not final yet. Drivers haven't yet been created for a lot of hardware - for example, as of about 2 weeks, the drivers bundled with Vista were more recent and better than those on the ATI site! Granted, that comment you made would be valid if Vista was final and had been released for a couple of months, but I think it applies more to the current situation that XP is in.

I'd like to know the system requirements for the Home Basic version of Vista also, I imagine they're considerably less than the ultimate version without Aero etc. In the end, you pick the version of Windows you need and your system can handle - if you can handle the "rediculous" specs that Ultimate requires - get it, but if you can't, that's what the basic version is for.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 20:08
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Considering Bill Gates nicked half his ideas from apple (he worked for them directly at one point I beleive) is it really supprising that vista is apple like?

Personally with Vista and XP the first damn thing I do is turn all that rubbish off and go back to the windows classic interface. Speeds things up alot. I prefere the windows 95/ 2000 way of doing things. All this dashboard stuff is usless clutter.

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soapyfish
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 20:09
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Quote: "microsft probably have many times but mac users only say it loads because they are bitter about the fact that windows makes more money than make does and that windows is more popular lol"


Any chance of some proof to back up that ridiculous claim Big Man?

It would appear I've been bitten by the coding bug yet again...
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Kenjar
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 20:22
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lol, windows is so popular that Apple have started using intel x86 chips so their machines can operate with windows. I think that says something.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 20:31
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I was starting to like Vista and even considering to upgrade once it was available, but then I found out how restricted an admin account is. I can't even save files to the directories I want. I tried to save a temporary image to the root of C drive(its easier for me to find in the FTP for uploading that way) and it said I don't have permission to save a file there. But it did ask if I wanted to save to My Documents instead. NO!
Same thing happened when I tried to create a blank text file in a program's project folder under Program Files. I don't like being told where I can and cannot store MY files on MY drive.


Quote: "When was the last time you had to install the NIC chip for a latop manually?"

I've always had to, windows never finds it.


Bill Gates does own part of Apple himself, not as MS. I think he's one of the largest share holders, but I'm not positive.

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_Nemesis_
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 20:32
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Quote: "I was starting to like Vista and even considering to upgrade once it was available, but then I found out how restricted an admin account is. I can't even save files to the directories I want. I tried to save a temporary image to the root of C drive(its easier for me to find in the FTP for uploading that way) and it said I don't have permission to save a file there. But it did ask if I wanted to save to My Documents instead. NO!
Same thing happened when I tried to create a blank text file in a program's project folder under Program Files. I don't like being told where I can and cannot store MY files on MY drive."


Disable UAC - that'll solve that problem. It should ask you for permissions unless you set it to run the program as an administrator, or like I say, disable UAC.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 9th Nov 2006 20:36
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Thanx, I'll try that if I ever manage to get back into Vista. After installing win2k the boot sector got screwed up.

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Codelike
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Posted: 10th Nov 2006 02:39 Edited at: 10th Nov 2006 03:34
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Quote: "Faster processors doesn't mean you should code less efficiently."


I don't think they have. I think they've coded for a computing capability that's two years ahead of what hardware everyone's got - ergo apparent Vista slowness. A hybrid SATA2 SSD/HDD is going to be necessary, as is DDR2-800 or higher & quadcore (or better) & nVidia 8 or 9 series GPUs with a WUXGA (or better) screen.

As Spooky rightly pointed out the EULA/WPA issue has now been favourably solved.

@Phaelax - the restrictive admin doesn't sound much different to *nix (not used Vista yet), as you have to 'sudo bash' in to get some stuff done, even on admin. This makes your system much less prone to infection as the kernel is fully locked down.

DX10 screenies for Alan Wake & FSX, & here

Well....! What can you say! The only reason you'll need

n.b. Vista is going to be licensed by socket rather than the amount of cores & is released on 30th January 2007. Home Premium OEM looks like the best version for me & probably most others too, if you're not planning on running a webserver on it - let your old XP or a copy of *nix take the webserver's load.

I have an XP3000+, 1.5gb DDR333, a 6600GT and I'm programming 3k text-based exe's?!
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The dude guy
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Posted: 10th Nov 2006 02:59
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I downloaded the beta, but I couldn't install it, how are you supposed to install it?
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Codelike
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I think it's an ISO download, in which case you'll need to burn it to disk or mount it on a software drive first.

I have an XP3000+, 1.5gb DDR333, a 6600GT and I'm programming 3k text-based exe's?!
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The dude guy
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Posted: 10th Nov 2006 03:04
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Ok, and how would I install it then? Reformat my computer and use that disk instead?
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Codelike
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Posted: 10th Nov 2006 03:09
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You should use a spare scrubbed hard disk (don't trash XP or whatever just yet!) & then install from the CD or DVD.

Note: it's an ISO so you can't just copy & paste it to the disk, you have to use a program that recognises how to burn an ISO.

I have an XP3000+, 1.5gb DDR333, a 6600GT and I'm programming 3k text-based exe's?!
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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Nov 2006 04:06
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Quote: "It inexplicably doesn't support alot of hardware"


That was how it was when Win2k was introduced. It's always been like that, until the hardware guys catch up.

Also, you can't compare something like QNX to Vista. Come on, get serious. There's a crapload more under the hood of an OS like Vista compared to an OS that fits on a floppy--- just logically speaking for one. Anyone who has taken an OS course would know this. It's like comparing an apple to one of those wax display fruits

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Oddmind
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Posted: 10th Nov 2006 04:10
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vista is like a bad girlfriend, only instead of money, it taked RAM... alot of it....

formerly KrazyJimmy

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Kentaree
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Posted: 10th Nov 2006 10:41
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Quote: "I don't think they have. I think they've coded for a computing capability that's two years ahead of what hardware everyone's got"


And that's exactly the problem. While vista introduces a lot of new stuff, what of that hasn't been done on other OS'es, which will run on current-day PCs? Sure, the graphics are pretty, and then look at what Mac have been like for the last few years. Sure, there's an extra layer of security, linux/unix anyone? The problem is it's just so bloated, it wouldn't surprise me if there's 10 year-old code in some places that no one will dare touch because they're not 100% sure what it does (ASM blocks anyone?)
Also, the main problem is the massive backward compatibility, there's APPLICATION SPECIFIC CODE (I'll find the article later) in the kernel for compatibility, one example that comes to mind is the original simcity, which wouldnt run so they put code in there to detect if that's being run, and then workaround problems. While this is all very admirable in a way, at this day in age, wouldnt it make more sense to recommend to people to install Virtual PC and run a copy of DOS on it to play games? Then people who don't want to run really old (useless, if you don't play games at all) software wouldn't have to suffer.

</rant>

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Kentaree
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Posted: 10th Nov 2006 15:52
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Just to add fuel to the fire, look at MacOs:

http://toastytech.com/guis/macos1.html

running on 128k... Sure, it's black and white, but still better than anything windows ever did

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Torrey
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Posted: 10th Nov 2006 16:40
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I'm part of Vista's beta program. Personally, I think the user interface they came up with for this release is God awful. The development teams that worked on the OS did an excellent job improving the underlying code. The kernel is a lot more stable, and they've worked on a framework that makes coding drivers a lot easier then in the past. One thing I didn't want to hear was that during the development of Vista, Microsoft decided (probably was decided before) that some years down the road they plan on taking out the win32 api layer and replacing it with .net. It kind of stinks that I spent so many years using that api layer and improving my skills in various languages to see it all going down the drain.

If it weren't for major computer manufacturing companies pre-installing this to their machines, I believe Microsoft would hit a brick wall with users. I plan on keeping my XP for a while.

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_Nemesis_
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Posted: 10th Nov 2006 16:57
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Torrey, since you're a Connect (I assume, although you could be a subscriber) participant, remember back to about build 1000-2000 before they had Aero implemented. The ISO we had to download used to be about 4.5gb and the UI was horrible. Was like a mutated bulky XP theme - so well, when you consider how Aero has evolved from THAT, it all of a sudden doesn't look that bad Anyhow, I personally like it

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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Nov 2006 19:43
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Quote: "Sure, it's black and white, but still better than anything windows ever did"


Fanboy alert

Seriously, I don't see how you can compare a B&W version of Mac to Windows. No matter how you see it, the current OS' would not be as advanced today if Windows had never been made.

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David R
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Posted: 10th Nov 2006 20:06
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Quote: "No matter how you see it, the current OS' would not be as advanced today if Windows had never been made."


Why do people say stuff like that? Not just with OS'es, but in regards to most 'historical' things - if it weren't made, it's obvious something would of been made in its place.

The statement is also generally useless, since we have no idea what could of happened without Windows (and Microsoft)

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Kentaree
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Posted: 10th Nov 2006 20:50
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@Jeku: I'm not a Mac fanboy by any means, never owned one. All I'm saying is that that interface was in use more than 15 years ago, using 128k of RAM, and does most of what windows's windows can do today

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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Nov 2006 21:25
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Quote: "does most of what windows's windows can do today"


How so? This is a serious question. How does the 128k OS do "most" of what Windows does today? I am just not following along.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 10th Nov 2006 21:28
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Amiga rules them all!

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Kentaree
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Posted: 10th Nov 2006 21:34
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Right, you're correct, let me rephrase, what the windows interface does today

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Codelike
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Posted: 10th Nov 2006 22:47 Edited at: 10th Nov 2006 23:32
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Quote: "While vista introduces a lot of new stuff, what of that hasn't been done on other OS'es, which will run on current-day PCs?"


I'd like to play (&, possibly, program) newer games - I've only one clear choice (DX10) & it'll require better, faster hardware than I have at present, OpenGL development on Linux aside (which I still think holds more potential than DX for the very long term). If Vista has a 'killer app' (one which isn't being done on other OSes & their supported hardware) it'll be it's broader support for uber-quality 3D rendering/games & general cross-compatibility between 3D apps & Physics than any other platform. Even if the main OS is somewhat bloated we'll all be running 8-16gb of DDR2-1000+ on multicore soon enough.

Quote: "Amiga rules them all!"


Y'not wrong there - Sequencer One Plus on my A500+ was the dog's nethers.

That said, it couldn't do 16-bit 44.1khz or 8+ port MIDI i/o too well. Not the fault of the OS, but the hardware that was available to it. I suppose that's the point with each OS development, it's developed specifically to take advantage of newer hardware technologies...

Quote: "something...made in its place"


Indeed, a gap would've been available in the market that someone else would've taken commercial advantage of with a similar (though not identical) product. Each different OS brings something new to the table. In a sense, they're all symbiotic in their competition. Without Windows, Linux may not have upped the ante on it's 'desktop'. Vice versa, without Linux, Microsoft may not have found a need to introduce better kernel security, for instance. In the end, all OSes are somehow beneficial to the end user, one way or another. All, together, will take us to one eventual end result - whatever that result is!

I have an XP3000+, 1.5gb DDR333, a 6600GT and I'm programming 3k text-based exe's?!
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Kentaree
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Posted: 10th Nov 2006 23:02
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Quote: "I've only one clear choice (DX10) & it'll require better, faster hardware than I have at present"


True about this, but why should the rest of the OS need faster hardware just to run?

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The dude guy
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Posted: 10th Nov 2006 23:08
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omg it's closed, is there any way I can download it?
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Codelike
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Posted: 10th Nov 2006 23:23 Edited at: 10th Nov 2006 23:29
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Quote: "why should the rest of the OS need faster hardware just to run?"


AFAIK, Vista Basic (comparable to XP as all the 3D goodies are turned off) is pretty fast & slim!

The 'bloat' is on the 3D side of things, I think, which I'd fully expect for newer technology that hasn't had the time to be completely streamlined.

I have an XP3000+, 1.5gb DDR333, a 6600GT and I'm programming 3k text-based exe's?!
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