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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Anyone want www.darkbasichelp.co.uk?

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Kenjar
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Posted: 28th Dec 2006 18:28
Does anyone want www.darkbasichelp.co.uk? dcforeman80@aol.com if you are interesed.

Chris Franklin_
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Posted: 28th Dec 2006 18:42
Will you be paying for the domain after it's been handed over? We NEED more info

I've got a new account because all my order's go to my new e-mail.
Kenjar
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Posted: 28th Dec 2006 19:25
Nope, once you own it, it's you're responsibility. I've sold DarkBASIC and it's plugins, I've bought Microsoft Visual C++ and about a dozen books on the subject. I'm closing down all my websites, though I still own the domain names for the next two years. So if anyone wants it, they'll have to sign up with a new DNS provider, and e-mail me the details.

Darth Vader
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Location: Adelaide SA, I am the only DB user here!
Posted: 29th Dec 2006 03:40
You giving up Dark Basic Kenjar?


Kenjar
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 04:01
After that crap with Indi and a few other projects falling though I stopped and reassessed my goals. I've since decided it's better to move onto a language where there's a chance of actually getting employment, and a viable team together. It'll take me a few years to learn C++, I'm under no illusions there, but I'm still young, and I've spent about 2 years learning DarkBASIC Pro, so, rather than sticking with this failed language, I'll move onto a vastly more acceptable language that will allow me to produce be-spoke applications of any type, from databases to word processors to advanced 3D applications, and even operating systems. In addition there are a large number of open source graphics libary's such as crystal space, and ogre to draw on, as well as several well known open source physics engines. It also allows me to develope cross platform software independant of Direct X, which given microsofts future plans, leaves me more and more despondant in reguards to it. I'd rather support the Open GL graphics libary.

But what this really boils down to is that DarkBASIC Professional isn't professional, it's a hobbiest langauge with no industry support, no sucessful games or non-game projects that haven't been developed by TGC, and no commerical groups working with the language. I'm not really interested in simply being a hobbiest, and the simple fact is that my time is better spent with a widely accepted langauge that offers real job prospects.

Steve J
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Location: Vancouver, Washington
Posted: 29th Dec 2006 04:24
whatever you say kenjar, I lost respect for you a long time ago, when you started acting up...

Happiness is like peeing your pants.
Everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth.
Frozen Flame
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 04:33
I emailed you.

-Frozen Flame
Cian Rice
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 05:04
Quote: "so, rather than sticking with this failed language,"


This is why I never respected you in the first place.

FredP
Retired Moderator
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Location: Indiana
Posted: 29th Dec 2006 05:40
Don't blame DarkBasic for your own failings.
If you continue to have the attitude that you do the next language you learn won't help.
As far as I am concerned if you have a problem with a mod it is with me and no one else.
If you leave the TGC community that is your choice not ours.
Don't slam TGC's products while you are doing so.

Lucifer
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 05:55
Quote: "if you have a problem with a mod it is with me and no one else."


erm.. i thought he said he had problems with indi not you? ... i love indi very very much...

but i can well understand what kenjar means even though i dont agree with some of that stuff he said, but i dont think learning db was a waste of time kenjar. you learned all the basics of programming like do loops, for loops and the if and end if thingys. And probably got a lot more skillz using it to..


i like furry jesus and sódóma just more than anything else..
Jeku
Moderator
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Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 29th Dec 2006 05:56 Edited at: 29th Dec 2006 05:57
Kenjar - Too bad you choose to mix your personal quips with a forum mod with your hobby. You are right in saying DBP is a hobby language, but there have been commercial projects made with it.

If you're going to C++ full-time, then nobody here would think negatively about you, but to call DBP "failed", which it isn't in any meaning of the word, is ignorant at best.

Good luck with your plans though, and make sure to let us know how your cross-platform word processors, OS', and databases turn out

Darth Vader
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Location: Adelaide SA, I am the only DB user here!
Posted: 29th Dec 2006 06:01
I went through a few of your posts. A majority of them were locked by indi, so I guess that why you have something agisnt him...
Good luck with C++, but if you ever join the Jerks at Game Dev! Then you shall feel my wrath!

Ditto Steve J


Crazy Ninja
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 06:01
Quote: "i love indi very very much..."


I find that greatly disturbing.

Michael S
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Location: Why do you ask?
Posted: 29th Dec 2006 07:37
Ken I don't understand why your so mad at indi for locking that syndrome thread. It got out of hand and he did what he had to do. I noticed he locked your Ghosts and the Supernatural thread not much later. Now you have been here since Jun 17th 2005 you know by now that those types of threads are not allowed because of religion. So dont you think you are blowing things a bit out of proportion? I mean come on don't attack indi for doing what he is supposed to do.

In memory of James Joseph Brown, Jr. (May 3, 1933 – December 25, 2006)
indi
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 09:18
good luck in what ever you do kenjar.

Zotoaster
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 16:18
I wouldn't call it a failed language, atleast give it some respect, because now that your starting C++, you're going to be reading about variables, loops, functions, and you'll know exactly what they all are

Anyway, good luck *thumbs up*

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 17:17
Good luck Kenjar. I think that once in the land of C++, you'll realize the strength of Dark Basic. It is a tool, and a very useful one. I feel that you have misused and mislabeled it, projecting personal complaints where they do not belong.


Come see the WIP!
David R
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 17:30
Yeah - DBP is not a 'failed language' - it's just the most infuriatingly frustrating, and most bug-infested hobby-orientated language I've ever had the 'pleasure' of using

I learnt DBP purely to move on from my previous language, which was a strictly 2d-only affair. And I was at first, impressed. But, now, a few years later, I detest the entire language:

DBC is ok-ish, but DBP is so full of bugs, it literally kills me to use it. And yeah, I know I'm going to get a barrage of 'Veteran DBP'ers' saying "It's you not the bugs": But that's complete and utter crud. For instance, around last year (when I still used DBP) I suffered with the following bugs, which definitely cannot be attributed to me:

a) You couldn't delete and recreate a terrain
b) You can't play an audio CD from anything other than the first alphabetical CD drive (this one is still unfixed in fact)
c) Alpha glitches, with partial visibility
d) Slow, memory leak-causing deletion of objects. The first part of that seems to still be around: no idea way though - deletion should be a list removal or pointer change at the most.

Fine, you may say that these aren't really serious as such, but put them together and you have a hell on earth situation.

That's why I moved to C++. At least with C++, if you use an open source lib, you can correct bugs within 3rd party stuff - and the IDE's are usually fantastic, and the core language is solid, dependable, and completely bug free.

So, good luck Kenjar, and if you suffered the same myriad of annoyance caused by DBP (especially in regards to content creation)
that I did, then switching to a rock-solid language like C++ will be the best thing you ever did.

And before anyone asks:
a) I do C++ and I have completed 4 game projects (in 2d) with a 5th being my first 3d one, which I am working on now

b) I started C++ last year. Most DBP'ers love to blow out of proportion how complex C++ is. Once you understand it, you'll have a hard time understanding why you didn't know it before.

It is difficult, but as with most things You get what you pay for, especially in regards to creation time and ease of use. You put a little bit of time into DBP, you get a little back. You put a lot of time into C++, you get a lot back.

And finally, I would say C++ is far far far more rewarding than DBP. Your first 2d sprite, or first 3d model in C++ will be a much more rewarding experience than the same thing in DBP.

Good luck Kenjar and enjoy the freedom that C++ brings you!


"History shall be kind to me, for I intend to write it" - Winston Churchill
Zotoaster
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 17:37
Quote: "Most DBP'ers love to blow out of proportion how complex C++ is"


It's not complex, just more structed

I have to admit, C++ is much more solid, and more flexible, and I do prefer the syntax, and it is free. But I don't really want to move on to it properly yet because my ideas dont last long, and when there's something I want to make, I want it quick. Maybe I should buy DGDK

Kenjar
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 17:54
I'm not going to waste any more time trying to convince anyone of anything. This is my opinion, it's been generated as the result of three open source projects, including Blackout, and two commerical attempts. I've got no reason to change it when so few here can claim the same level of experiance. You want a hobby language, great choice. Commerically, and mostly because of this community, it is totally unsuitable.

Frozen Flame the domain name is yours, just e-mail me your DNS server settings and I'll have it transfered to you. I hope you find it useful than I did, and the community more greatful of you're efforts.

Best of luck to you all, this is my last post. If someone prooves me wrong then send an e-mail, you'll have full gloating rites. Until then, ONWARDS AND UPWARDS!

Cian Rice
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 18:00
Quote: "mostly because of this community, it is totally unsuitable."


You're one to talk.

CattleRustler
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Location: case modding at overclock.net
Posted: 29th Dec 2006 18:08
Quote: "Maybe I should buy DGDK "

Thats also a option that usually overlooked.

you can learn c++ and avoid the innards of dx by using the original dgk, or now there is available the dgdk.net for us .NET'ers out there (VB.NET & C#, with any of the free IDE's for .net, or Visual Studio 2003 and 2005).

My biggest beefs with DBP were with the IDE and the cheesy, non-oop, procedural basic language, not so much DBP's core itself. I stopped using DBP almost two years ago. Since I am a .NET programmer, the dgdk.net was a no brainer for me. It might be worth a look for some people, before they take the often fruitless plank-walk towards c++.

either way, good luck

David R
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 18:14
Quote: "It might be worth a look for some people, before they take the often fruitless plank-walk towards c++."


Yes, but doesn't the DGDK suffer the same aliments as DBP? It seems that, if anything, it is overlooked more so than DGDK, in regards to bugs and issues.


"History shall be kind to me, for I intend to write it" - Winston Churchill
Benjamin
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 19:17 Edited at: 29th Dec 2006 19:21
Quote: "and mostly because of this community, it is totally unsuitable."

DBP is unsuitable because of the community? What?

@David R: So, what have you actually made in C++ that so rivals the output of DBP?

Tempest - P2P UDP Multiplayer Plugin (DBP/DBCe)
Download the free version
CattleRustler
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 19:37
DavidR, while that is true, the dgk's are in the process of coming inline with dbp latest release (6.3?) and it was just a general suggestion, for those who may find themselves wanting to leave dbp due to other reasons than the actual core/bugs etc.

Also, on the issue of learning C++ now, I would think people would consider C# first at this juncture, considering where everything is heading anyway (.NET) but to each his own.

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 19:41
Kenjar, I sent you an e-mail. Hope you get it.

Your problem here has not been the community, it has been you. People that are most capable, you have alienated. Such limited, you have no hope of anything. Expressing that frustration is pointless at best.


Come see the WIP!
Frozen Flame
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 20:48 Edited at: 29th Dec 2006 20:48
[double post]
Frozen Flame
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 20:48
ns1.vaulthosting.net
ns2.vaulthosting.net

Thanks kenjar ill make good use of it

but im guessing theres no way you can give me the registrar details so in the future i can continue with more years of it?

-Frozen Flame
Kenjar
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 20:54
I'll find out for you, I should have a letter laying around here somewhere.

Cian Rice
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 21:55
Quote: "**** all. You're just 1 more compo entry that will achive nothing, wake up and smell your own ****."


This is from an email I received from Kenjar's listed email adress.


Thanks Kenjar. I appreciate the 'wake up' call.

Jeku
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 21:58 Edited at: 29th Dec 2006 21:59
Guys, it doesn't have to be C++ or DBP, why not both?

Many of us have already been using C++ for years (myself, going on 10 years now ), but have used DBP as an awesome RAD prototype tool. If any of us are at a point where we need something *technically* better than DBP, then I applaud him/her. Many of us complain about DBP's bugs, but don't realize that even the DirectX SDK has its bugs too. It's just MS has a small army of software engineers who fix them.

Anyways, why not use both? If you have a cool idea for a puzzle game, for example, just mock it up with DBP to see if it's fun. You'll waste tons of time on C++ mocking up a game just to find out it's not fun. I know I've done that too many times to count.

Plus, some of us use C++ every day at work and it's nice to cozy up to a BASIC language at night with a cup of coffee. You can just get so much more done, faster. You can't do Halo 3, but you *can* make a damn impressive indie title, well stacked up with even the best indie games out there.

FredP
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 22:17
Quote: "This is from an email I received from Kenjar's listed email adress."


That is why I have a spam filter.

Quote: "Guys, it doesn't have to be C++ or DBP, why not both?"


Agreed.
Whatever it takes to get the job done.There is room for all of this in the world of game development.

Cian Rice
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 22:19
Well spam filter will be going on now Fred, I didn't really think he'd try to 'attack' me via email.

Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 22:51
Sounds like it's best not to email him.

It's not the language that has failed you but your expectations of other peoples ability to stay on a project till it's finished. This will happen with any language you choose. That's why many programmers are halfway decent at 2D graphics, modeling, music, and soundfx... so we can do everything ourselves. If the project fails when everything is done by one person there's only one person to blame.

I hope C++ brings you what you desire.
Chris K
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 23:17 Edited at: 30th Dec 2006 20:22
Jeku's nailed it - it's clearly not DBPro vs. C++

DBPro is so No swearing, even with stars awesome. I couldn't love it more, but if you want a job (as a programmer) in the industry, you are going to be using a C language. DBPro is for fun, and for making games that are all your own.

What I program at work couldn't be done in DBPro, but I would have a very hard time matching the games I've made in DBPro, in C++.

Something that should be explained to people who are 'jumping ship' to C++, is that most of these 'bugs' are going to be there as well. Alpha sorting? 1. That was fixed in DBPro, 2. You'll get that in C++ (or anything - it's not a language thing)

Also, DBPro can (can't) play stuff from CDs??? To be honest that is a useless feature and might as well be cut from the features list rather than fixed...

Quote: "it literally kills me to use it"


Literally?

I would encourage everyone to learn C++ or C# when they feel they are up to it, but don't forget your first love.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
David R
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 23:44
Quote: "Something that should be explained to people who are 'jumping ship' to C++, is that most of these 'bugs' are going to be there as well. Alpha sorting? 1. That was fixed in DBPro, 2. You'll get that in C++ (or anything - it's not a language thing)"


Umm what..? I don't get alpha sorting issues in my current 3d project at all

And most of these bugs are not shared by C++ at all. I can play an Audio CD-ROM from any CD drive, I can delete objects without stalling the entire game for a second or more, and I can delete and recreate terrains without crashing.


"History shall be kind to me, for I intend to write it" - Winston Churchill
Chris K
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 23:58 Edited at: 29th Dec 2006 23:59
Unless you have written some kind of per-pixel zsorting shader (which would be completely impractical with current hardware), there are definitely situations where you will get zsorting trouble, at least as far as I know.

This situation is one of them:



Where those polys have randomly fading alpha levels across them.

Also, how are you managing your objects in the memory? Because it is pretty hard to keep memory in order and fast when dumping stuff in and out of it (deleting/loading objects). I mean, even very experienced engine leads have trouble with that. Are you using some free indie game dev engine?

On a side note, what kind of game are you making? Screenies?

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-

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Jeku
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Posted: 30th Dec 2006 03:33
I would imagine he's using another graphics engine, Direct3D, or OpenGL.

indi
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Posted: 30th Dec 2006 04:48
He sent me a hate letter as well, I never banned him which made it all the worse for his tude towards me.

Most other programming forums have far less tact then TGC's and wont tolerate the nonsense he created, anyway good luck, your going to need it.

Now we can get back to making some cool games.

Lucifer
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Posted: 30th Dec 2006 05:06 Edited at: 30th Dec 2006 05:24
Indi, i'm not sure if this is the right time or place to tell you this... but.. i.. i think i'm falling in love with you


Me+indi... yes...
indi
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Posted: 30th Dec 2006 05:09
aww how cute creepy but cute...

LD52
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Posted: 30th Dec 2006 05:30
Quote: "Now we can get back to making some cool games.
"


I hear ya. Lets GO
Crazy Ninja
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Posted: 30th Dec 2006 06:46
Quote: "aww how cute creepy but cute..."


i'm thinking along more creepy than cute. Check your closets before you go to bed at night, and under the bed.

indi
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Posted: 30th Dec 2006 07:00
Share the love man yeah
Be comfortable in your own skin to accept that some people like/ love you regardless of gender.

Frozen Flame
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Posted: 30th Dec 2006 08:29
lol
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 30th Dec 2006 08:41
Yuck


Come see the WIP!
Grandma
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Posted: 30th Dec 2006 13:34 Edited at: 30th Dec 2006 13:35
lol, yeah indi is a great moderator, you seem have this habit of sorting out the weak from the strong and send them away so they wont bother us.

Comp : 1024mb Ram, 3.0ghz, GeforceFX 5800, 1,1TB storage
Chris Franklin_
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Posted: 30th Dec 2006 14:20
Quote: "Share the love man yeah
Be comfortable in your own skin to accept that some people like/ love you regardless of gender."


rofl

I've got a new account because all my order's go to my new e-mail.
David R
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Posted: 30th Dec 2006 15:38
Quote: "Unless you have written some kind of per-pixel zsorting shader (which would be completely impractical with current hardware), there are definitely situations where you will get zsorting trouble, at least as far as I know.
"


Yeah, the example you have given would probably give even my game a run for it's money, and I didn't think of that example per se.

The alpha issue I was mainly having with in DBP, was that objects with alpha transparency on them could not be seen behind other objects with alpha transparency on them also. As you say, these issues are fixed, and aren't terribly serious, but being a perfectionist, this problem caused me enough grief (last year) to 'jump ship' to C++.

The real killer with DBP (for me at least) is definitely the CD player bug. It isn't a bug per se, but a lack of functionality. Lee stated that it is caused by ancient MCI technology, but really, for a DX9 based product on XP, is should be using something much beyond that - so the function doesn't really do 'what it says on the tin' and that was effectively the last straw for me.

The bug is here by the way: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=59702&b=15

Quote: "Also, how are you managing your objects in the memory? Because it is pretty hard to keep memory in order and fast when dumping stuff in and out of it (deleting/loading objects). I mean, even very experienced engine leads have trouble with that. Are you using some free indie game dev engine?
"


For 3d I'm using Irrlicht. Irrlicht is definitely pretty speedy at allocations/deletion, but I have written a pretty simple memory manager for my game as a whole (mainly to take care of each OOP object which owns a 3d node). The memory manager has definitely helped in terms of speed of allocations etc, since the CRT is really not up to the pace of new's and delete's in most games.

Quote: "On a side note, what kind of game are you making? Screenies?"


My current game is pretty simple (in terms of design) - its an arcade-style space game, where you pretty much just shoot stuff. But the levels will be much 'deeper' as such, and I hope to really push out the boat in terms of visuals, now that I'm apt enough to start using shaders etc. It's also using real time physics with Newton (which is a first time for me altogether, since I've never bothered with physics before).

As for screen-shots, there aren't many. I'm definitely not an artist, and recently I also 'restarted' the entire project from scratch: before I was coding a very 'This game only-centric' approach, which meant that practically everything was glued to the game. This taught me a lesson when it came to coding the level editor though, so I've started a new 'framework', separate from the actual game, called "Tuono" (Italian for Thunder).

Lots of my time has been spent coding the underlying stuff so far, namely the physics. I've also been coding the level editor - in which I'm using the main engine C++ code, with a managed C++ front end (so I can use .NET's pretty UI + designer).

But yeah, actual screen shots. They're pretty crud at the moment, as I haven't really done anything besides test objects. This project was started pretty recently, so most of the work is on the low levels rather than the high (visible) level.

(Old) Pre-rewrite in-game editor (with crummy 'tube' test object)


Current (WIP) level editor, with Irrlicht rendering into the main GUI.


So yeah, quite lacklustre in terms of screenies unfortunately, as the editor is the only thing worth looking at, at the moment. Once the level editor can put segments together, then content creation can begin, and I can start doing pretty in-game stuff. Not as pretty (yet) or as easy as DBP, no. But far more rewarding, and I've learnt tons more


"History shall be kind to me, for I intend to write it" - Winston Churchill
Grandma
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Posted: 30th Dec 2006 16:09 Edited at: 30th Dec 2006 16:09
@ David R

ooh that's nice, i'm learning C++ myself atm, but i wont quit DBP for atleast another year or two.....when i'm done with my first dbp project.

I felt that the usual excersize (pong) was to booring so i started a pretty far fetched project ( for a semi-noob ).

That "tube" texture.......Unreal 1?

Also can you please care to explain in a little detail of you wish, how you made the GUI? I'm currently moving from the DOS window to the GUI stage in terms of C++ coding and would love to know some random info about it that would be helpfull.

Comp : 1024mb Ram, 3.0ghz, GeforceFX 5800, 1,1TB storage

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