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Geek Culture / considering new game system

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Zaibatsu
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 18:18
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I would like to open this by stating that i have been using an N64 for the last 5 years and I'm considering upgrading. I been looking on eBay, and with the release of the ps3, the prices of ps2's are dropping. Would it be worth it if i could buy a ps2 with a few controllers and a game of two for $80-$100. I'm not about to fork over $400 and up for a ps3.

So basically I'm asking if it would be a good idea to buy a ps2. there a few games that have caught my interest, such as T3: Rise of The Machines and Gauntlet Dark Legacy. would it be a good or wise idea to get one?

"I admire its purity, a survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse, delusions of morality"

"Once again you've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory!"
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David R
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 18:19
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Quote: "Would it be worth it if i could buy a ps2 with a few controllers and a game of two for $80-$100"


No, it's an obsolete machine, and Sony and others are simply trying to make their final bucks off of it. It'll lose all support quite soon


"History shall be kind to me, for I intend to write it" - Winston Churchill
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Saikoro
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 18:27
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WHAT?! PS2 is by far one of the best consoles with the largest selections out there, and you can pick up most games for $20 and under. Granted, what you see is going to be what you get, since they wont be developing much more for it, but there are soooo many great games for it that it won't really matter. There are many hours and hours of fun to be had with the vast catalog of games out there, and it'll more than pay for itself with fun.


My band Phoenix Ophelia : http://www.myspace.com/phoenixophelia
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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 18:30
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If the price is right, then IMO it is definately worth it. PS2 has such a huge library of games, you could keep yourself busy forever if you are willing to play previous generation games. The price on the games are only going to drop also (although you really can't count on much more new stuff being produced). Really, the answer is dependant on what you are looking for and what you are willing to pay. Only you could answer that for yourself.

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Zaibatsu
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 18:32
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Quote: "I would like to open this by stating that i have been using an N64 for the last 5 years"


I'm used to new games not being released.

Quote: "if you are willing to play previous generation games."


been playing an N64 for 5 years, this will seem new to me.

"I admire its purity, a survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse, delusions of morality"

"Once again you've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory!"
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Josh
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 18:43
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The PS2 will be great value for money now that its previous gen, I would seriously consider a Wii or X360 as these are another step up again from the PS2 gen.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 18:53
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If an N64 lasted you 5 years, a PS2 should last you the rest of your life!

If you can get a modded one then so much the better, the whole 'import' world will be opened up to you (and thus ebay buys will be easier). Games are everywhere, REALLY cheap, and there are thousands and thousands of them, covering all genres you could ever possibly want - no other console offers this, no matter what price.

Heavy on the Magick
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jasonhtml
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 18:59 Edited at: 15th Jan 2007 19:00
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eh... dont get PS2, get a 360 its amazing. and you'll love xbox live

Quote: "I'm not about to fork over $400 and up for a ps3."


even if $400 is a lot, you could spent that on the premium xbox360. you get 1 wireless controller, 1 mic, the xbox360(of course), a harddrive(which you pretty much need to play games, and this doesnt come with the $300 core version), and xbox live silver(which lets you have an account and you can talk to friends, but u cant play online unless u upgrade to gold)

now an xbox360 is what will last you the rest of your life!


forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=78971&b=8&p=0
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 19:04
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If an N64 lasted five years, then a 360 most likely won't last 5 minutes - it just doesn't have the same kind of games. Not even close infact. If you're not a gun-head, petrol-head or sports-freak you can count the number of appealing 360 games on one hand.

Heavy on the Magick
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Saikoro
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 19:04
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The Xbox 360 has such a small percentage of the library of games the PS2 has, jasonhtml.. how will it last the rest of his life? lol


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Zaibatsu
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 19:16
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I mulled it over, and I probably will but a ps2, but i have a few questions.

1. I've heard that it can play ps1 games, is this correct? there are some classic ps1 games i want.

2. how heavy is it? would it be light enough to travel with?

3. How much are the games on average?

4. How sturdy and long-lasting is the system? can i expect it to work in 5-7 years?

"I admire its purity, a survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse, delusions of morality"

"Once again you've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory!"
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alex 1337
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 19:24
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1. Yes thats true

2. Depends if you get the light version or the original, but its probably twice more weight than an n64.

3. If you get the games off ebay, the can be anywhere from $1-$30

4. I have had mine for about 4 years so far with no problems at all.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 19:26
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1) Yes, although SOME games won't work - they are in the minority.
2) Get the newer slim-line version and you can easily travel with it.
3) 2nd hand games are dirt cheap. I've seen them from 50p (about $0.70)
4) I've had mine since official release (6 years ago iirc), and never a problem.

Heavy on the Magick
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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 19:33
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...and you can use the PS2 as a DVD player. I didn't bother buying a DVD player until my PS2 died. For the last year (or so) that I had it, I don't think I used the PS2 to play any games at all.

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Zaibatsu
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 19:37
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I'm guessing i should listen to the majority of you and ignore David R...

"I admire its purity, a survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse, delusions of morality"

"Once again you've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory!"
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PowerSoft
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 19:54
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What he said was accurate, most likely going to be the case.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 20:13
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It still has fantastic games, and tons of them. It's a great price for all of the entertainment it will provide.


Come see the WIP!
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 21:36
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For that price it is more than worth it, not quite as portable as a gamecube (which you can find for about $40 used with a controller and game), but it all depends on the titles you like.

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=73324&b=8
My RPG WIP, check it out
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Zaibatsu
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 23:10
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I will be buying a PS2, but am keeping my N64, which I have grown emotionally attached too. I am selling some of my N64 games which i no longer use though. i don't use a lot of my N64 games, but have become emotionally attached to them as well...

"I admire its purity, a survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse, delusions of morality"

"Once again you've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory!"
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Black Mesa
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 23:24
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Quote: "4. How sturdy and long-lasting is the system? can i expect it to work in 5-7 years?"



It is but for the love of god dont stand it vertically. I badly damaged 2 discs doing that.

Your mod has been erased by a signature
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Raven
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 23:30
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It's all down to peoples opinions on the console.
Although sure it's true there are thousands of games, plus nearly the entire library of Playstation titles available for the Playstation2 the real question is will you play many of them?

Personally I find myself with a larger GameCube library, and often find myself playing my old N64 games quite a bit.

imo (no doubt be shot down for this) is that you save your money until you can afford a Nintendo Wii.

You get this generation, as well as a constantly expanding title library (from WiiShop) of each of the previous generation console games. (i.e. NES, SNES, N64, and GameCube. As well as Mega Drive, Saturn and PC games. GameCub gamese are able to physically be played directly on the console not just by purchase and download, as it reads the GC Discs and is 100% compatible with the old peripherals.)

This to me would probably be your best option, as you won't have to give up all of the N64 games you still currently play.

It is extremely portable (size of carrying 3 DVD games), light, and automatically detects to any television. Although a small side issue with it is you have to use a 60Hz television, but you can still connect via RF using your N64 RF-Connector; so this provides support for a huge range of older TVs.

I'd say for the price it is, honestly it is a very good option. While the Playstation 2 has a library of ~5000 titles (majority of which you will never play) the Nintendo Wii has a library of over 1million set to come to the console within the next 12months.

But that said it is £180 not £100, so the price difference to get it in the first place is a little steeper. That said you do have WiFi built-in, Bluetooth built-in, and SD-Flash compatibility for connecting to the internet, mobile phones, Nintendo-DS, etc.

I mean it's up to you, but if it was up to me; I'd say the extra price is more than worth what you get.

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Zaibatsu
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 03:33
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I'm just gonna stick with buying the ps2, but I have a few more questions.

I am looking for some good games for it,

1. Is Red Faction a good game to get for it?

2. would the ps2 version of Half-Life 1 be a good idea?

3. is AVP: Extinction a good game?

4. Do the ps1 games Duke Nukem and Alien Trilogy work on it?

5. Should I buy Predator: Concrete Jungle?

"I admire its purity, a survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse, delusions of morality"

"Once again you've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory!"
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Saikoro
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 05:09
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1. It was fun, but the replay value wasn't anything great.

2. No.

3-5. No idea.

Theres still loads of games for rent still, so splurge on getting quite a few games before they take them off of shelves


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Raven
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 05:23
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1. Not unless you enjoy being lost for hours in poor graphics
2. No, PC version (Blue Shift) is better
3. No
4. Yes
5. Sweet jesus NO!

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Zaibatsu
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 05:56
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Quote: ". Not unless you enjoy being lost for hours in poor graphics"


is the gameplay good?

Quote: "No, PC version (Blue Shift) is better"


I have all of the PC ones, is there anything new in the ps2 version?

Quote: "No"

Whats wrong with it? I love the Alien Series.

Quote: "Sweet jesus NO!"


whats so bad about it?

while we're on the topic, how is Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines, and Gauntlet Dark Legacy? I've played them both on different systems and loved them. Can you suggest any good games?

"I admire its purity, a survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse, delusions of morality"

"Once again you've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory!"
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Raven
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 06:13
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Quote: "is the gameplay good?"


To give you a little insight, I'm the kinda gamer who will do something until he completes it just so I can say "I did it!".

Red Faction, on the PC I completed. It looked crap, played crap. The PS2 port was fairly true to the original in that the developers obviously couldn't be arsed to make something good and aparently got lazier between PC and porting to PS2.

Red Faction 2 however, is identically as crap; and the only thing that keeps myself and my mate playing it is actually the joy we get out of taking the piss out of how god damn frustrated we get trying to do something that in any other game would've been a fairly simplistic task.

Quote: "I have all of the PC ones, is there anything new in the ps2 version?"


Sometimes the console can't handle you turning to quickly and slow down. Aside from that, nope nothing really different provided you can put up with having to do pin-point precision on a controller.

Quote: "Whats wrong with it? I love the Alien Series."


I like the idea behind the AVP series, just the controls are awkward and there's nothing really new apart from a minor graphics update from the original.

Quote: "whats so bad about it?"


Bugs, Glitches, Shoot'em-up gameplay with some minor platform puzzles thrown in. It honestly was a pathetically poor cash-in which had me taking it back after a day. That's not to say I didn't complete it; but £30 for 4hrs gameplay just left me feeling ripped off given how simplistic it all was.

Quote: "while we're on the topic, how is Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines, and Gauntlet Dark Legacy? I've played them both on different systems and loved them. Can you suggest any good games?"


T3:Rise of the Machines was poor, but Gauntlet was alright.
Personally games I'd suggest checking out would be.

Snowblind, Killzone, Soul Calibur 3, TimeSplitters (entire series), Rouge Agent, Psi Ops, Kill.Switch, etc.. Some very good titles on the PS2. Problem is you need to sift through alot of crap too.

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FredP
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 08:54
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If you are looking for a new console...how about a Phantom?
If you are looking for a decent last-gen system...
The PS2 has a heck of a library of games.
I can store bunches of music,game saves,etc. on my XBox...and I still haven't used all of the memory.Playing Halo 2 on it is cool.
And there are some games that work on the Box that wouldn't work on the other consoles.
The Gamecube is dirt cheap and has the most limited gaming library...but if you like Nintendo franchises,Resident Evil games and stuff like that you should pick it up.The Cube has amazing graphics.
For the record...I own one of each.
You might just want to upgrade to the new generation of gaming systems.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 09:48
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Quote: "Depends if you get the light version or the original, but its probably twice more weight than an n64."
Yeah, for the original. I have one in my bedroom and it is pretty large compared to my N64. My other PS2 in the lounge is one of those newer small ones. Totally quiet (bedroom one is one of the original day of release fantastic ones) and is tiny. No way is it anywhere as big as the N64 or as heavy.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Phaelax
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 10:00
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I can't make N64 last 5 minutes, I hate that console. The latest system I bought was an SNES. PS2 has tons of games available to you, and if you find one for the right price they go ahead and buy it.

As for the latest consoles, PS3 isn't worth $600 and the Wii is just boring to play. Sure the Wii is neat, but I gaurantee after you've played it for half an hour you'll be bored.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 12:36 Edited at: 16th Jan 2007 12:38
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Quote: "1. Is Red Faction a good game to get for it?"


For it's TIME, it was really neat. It was only a couple of months off being a PS2 launch title, which will give you some idea of how old it is - and thus technically less accomplished that it could have been. It's still not a bad game though. The multiplayer is fun, the missions are pretty neat in places too. I spent many hours enjoying this game. If you're not after masses of glitz, which I don't get the impression you are, then you can pick this up dirt cheap and have a blast.

However the best series of shooters on the PS2 are the TimeSplitters ones - utterly superb games! You really must give them a try. I also really liked Black, but it doesn't have the charm of TS.

Another series of extreme quality PS2 games are the Burnout range, and the SSX range. There isn't a single duff game in either set! They are all simply superb - and still today look beautiful, and play like a dream.

Quote: "2. would the ps2 version of Half-Life 1 be a good idea?"


Only if you've never played the PC version and/or don't want to. Otherwise, no.

Quote: "3. is AVP: Extinction a good game?"


I have to admit I liked it, but I'm a massive Aliens/Predator movie fan.

Quote: "4. Do the ps1 games Duke Nukem and Alien Trilogy work on it?"


Yes, I own them both. Alien Trilogy, while looking blocky as hell, is still a masterful game. Suspenseful, great atmosphere, great gunplay. Be sure to fiddle with your PS2s 'PlayStation' compatibility settings to get the best visuals from it though.

Quote: "5. Should I buy Predator: Concrete Jungle?"


It's not as good as A Trilogy, but it could pass a few hours of boredom without killing you Don't expect to get any marathon gaming sessions out of it though.

Heavy on the Magick
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Dazzag
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 13:47 Edited at: 16th Jan 2007 13:47
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Don't forget the gun games and EyeToy games on the PS2. Classic stuff. Plus things like Buzz (great on a projector) or Singstar are pretty much unique on the PS2 and totally awesome at parties. Just remember to include alcohol. And water. EyeToy games make you sweat like a b**tard At Xmas I smashed an overhead light playing the boxing game. Hurt like hell. Heh.

Just reminded me, when I was unloading my shipping (moved the other day) I found my old Jaguar that I had lost somewhere and the shippers packed with everything else. Plus the original AVP game for it! Oh yes. Must give it a spin once I stop playing Tempest 2000

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 15:01
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It does seem like you're leaning towards FPS's on the console, so I'd recommend you're very careful in your choices (a lot of the PS2 era FPSs were pants).

The Timesplitters games were quite good fun, and some of the better FPSs. I have a very soft spot in my heart for Cold Winter, on the PS2, but that's because I designed several of the levels (no honestly - it's quite good!).

The only PS1 game I remember there being a serious problem playing on the PS2 was Final Fantasy VII - and they may have sorted that later on.

The PS2 is a good choice for a wide variety of games, including a lot of very japanese rpgs. If you're looking for FPSs, you may be better going for an original XBox, though. And for Nintendo style games, Wii is the only way to go. (I have a Wii - and it's lasted me much longer than half an hour.)

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Silvester
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 15:51
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Get an Atari!!!!

What,its quite cool for a console if you like those games

But serious,sony consoles have MANY games,so its definatly worth buying them if you like those games.but well,RPG games dont play very smooth on them as i think.

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 17:40
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Quote: "The Timesplitters games were quite good fun, and some of the better FPSs. I have a very soft spot in my heart for Cold Winter, on the PS2, but that's because I designed several of the levels (no honestly - it's quite good!)."


You made levels for Cold Winter?! Thats awesome! I liked that game.

Timesplitters games are great. Every time I play one it makes me wish I had the time to make a similar style game on PC.

I also recommend Black. It's a really fun shooter especially once you get the shotgun. If you play it, you'll understand why. It's SO overpowered!

Sometimes the only way over a wall is to pile up enough bodies to climb over - Dave W.
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Saikoro
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 18:34
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Ah yes, Timesplitters. I have Timesplitters 2 and I got a few marathon sessions out of it playing with my bro, its fun and only minorly frustrating.


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Zaibatsu
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 00:13
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Quote: "I have to admit I liked it, but I'm a massive Aliens/Predator movie fan."


So am I. not so much Predator, but Aliens definitely. I bought the Alien Quadrilogy and watched them all in a row. they are the type of film i can watch over and over.

Quote: "yes, I own them both. Alien Trilogy, while looking blocky as hell, is still a masterful game. Suspenseful, great atmosphere, great gunplay. Be sure to fiddle with your PS2s 'PlayStation' compatibility settings to get the best visuals from it though."


Ok. I own Alien Trilogy on PC and love it. How good is Duke Nukem on PS2?

"I admire its purity, a survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse, delusions of morality"

"Once again you've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory!"
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Jeku
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 07:10
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Quote: "the Nintendo Wii has a library of over 1million set to come to the console within the next 12months."


I've heard you say that elsewhere too, but I never heard the 1 million figure anywhere on any sites. And in just a year? Highly highly doubtful. And by the way there's no PC games on the Wii VC There will soon be C64 games, however.

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Thraxas
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 08:06
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To own a PS2 and not get the Guitar Hero games should be a crime... Awesome fun particularly with your mates round and a slab of beer...

[off topic]
for those of you who have played the guitar hero games go and look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yEjyuw42YY&mode=related&search=

this kid is unblievable!
[/off topic]


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Agent Dink
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 09:19
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Amazing if that was real!

Sometimes the only way over a wall is to pile up enough bodies to climb over - Dave W.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 12:59
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Quote: "I've heard you say that elsewhere too, but I never heard the 1 million figure anywhere on any sites. And in just a year? Highly highly doubtful."


1 million games for the Wii in a year?

My hairy arse there will be.

Infact, not counting 'different language versions of the same game title', ARE there even 1 million different games - for all systems combined - in existence? I'm struggling to see how anyone can come up with that number - even when including the phenomenal selection of games released for the likes of the C64 and PS.

Heavy on the Magick
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Freddy 007
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 18:26
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Quote: "Can you suggest any good games?"


I really liked The Getaway( I only played the first one, not Black Monday ). You should definitely check it out. Also, TimeSplitters was one of the best games I played on my PS2 . Bully looks great too, I have never played it though, as I already got rid of my PS2 a few years ago when I bought an Xbox.

I think a PS2 will be a good choice if you don't want to buy a next-gen(shouldn't we call them 'current-gen'?) console. As people say, there are lots of great games out for the system, and it will certainly be a cheaper solution if you can do without HD and the other fancy next-gen stuff.

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Zaibatsu
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Posted: 18th Jan 2007 00:03
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fancy next-gen gimmicky crapola has always disgusted me. I don't like many modern games, except my PC ones. I always loved classic games, and the PS2 will soon by obsolete and classic. therefore it has moved into my turf.

"I admire its purity, a survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse, delusions of morality"

"Once again you've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory!"
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Raven
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Posted: 18th Jan 2007 01:44
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Quote: "Infact, not counting 'different language versions of the same game title', ARE there even 1 million different games - for all systems combined - in existence? I'm struggling to see how anyone can come up with that number - even when including the phenomenal selection of games released for the likes of the C64 and PS."


It was in one of their keynotes.. either TGS or E3, I forget which.
Remember it spans all of their consoles:
NES, SNES, N64 and GameCube; plus there have been rumours of GameBoy games also being added.

On top of that Sega and Atari have signed deals to release games from their previous generations. As well as they said PC-Compatible games being added, guess this includes older computers.

I can only really go on what I've heard in what Nintendo have said over the past 2years, as my Wii won't go online atm because I need to get a new router that supports xDSL connections with NAT to allow everything online. Not sure which one to go for though.

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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Jan 2007 05:58
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Quote: "NES, SNES, N64 and GameCube; plus there have been rumours of GameBoy games also being added."


All of the games on those consoles != 1,000,000

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Van B
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Posted: 18th Jan 2007 10:23
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That 1 mil number sounds like a load of tripe, I mean I have extensive rom and game collections, everything from speccy to the ST and Amiga, and I probably have less than 8,000 - there's nothing like 1 million games in existence IMO. I don't even think there's a platform with more than 5,000 titles to it's name.

I think you missed the boat, should have gotten a GameCube, in fact a lot of people should have gotten them - damn underated machine. I just lent mine to a mate, he never bothered with it before, now he's completely addicted to RE4 and Pikmin, despite the 360 he just got.

A PS2 with that massive second hand market should be ideal. There's even some nintendo migration titles, like Harvest Moon, the PS2 versions look great.

''Stick that in your text and scroll it!.''
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Raven
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Posted: 18th Jan 2007 11:02
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the playstation and playstation 2 both have more than 5,000 titles; but i think it's around 7,000 for each.

Quote: "That 1 mil number sounds like a load of tripe"


Well GameSpy/IGN still has each of the keynotes from E3 and TGS from the last 6years on their site. I think it was TGS 2005 when they officially announced the Wii they noted on the 1million title library.

Honestly I don't know; just going on what I saw Nintendo said.
As for the C64 game though, according the NOA site; the only "PC" was the Coleco Grafix or something.

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Van B
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Posted: 18th Jan 2007 11:24
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Well yeah, I suppose the PSX and PS2 could have that many games - but that's still a long way away from 1 million - even if every supported console/computer in their scheme had 10,000 games each.

Not that I'm against this, the retro side of the Wii is one of it's selling points IMO, but I hope Nin don't expect us to believe that million games statement, it's rediculous - it's not even like they'd want you to sift through that many titles, if they want to sell them effectively then they'll need reviews, screenshots, stuff like that. Bunging every game ever for those consoles onto a server is conceivable, but stupid IMO.

''Stick that in your text and scroll it!.''
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 18th Jan 2007 13:09
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Quote: "Well GameSpy/IGN still has each of the keynotes from E3 and TGS from the last 6years on their site. I think it was TGS 2005 when they officially announced the Wii they noted on the 1million title library."


No-one is doubting who said that figure Raven, our posts are not against what you said you read in a keynote - they're against the fact that it is highly doubtful there are 1 million games in existence at all, even combining every single platform there is.

I think if you count each *language* version of each game, then you could get closer. But unique game titles probably don't touch *half* a million in my very generous estimations, and that's including genuine arcade games too. Like I said I'm not disputing what you read, that isn't the issue here - I think it's actually a fascinating idea, to try and work out how many games have ever been made in the world, ever. But I'm still struggling to hit that magic mill, by a loooong shot.

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Raven
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Posted: 18th Jan 2007 13:22
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yeah dunno, it seems a big number.
Wonder how many the PC has overall, I know that's got to be a fairly large number.

I know the Amiga has a library of ~100,000 as that's the number reviewed on Hall of Light. Which is amazing given the Amiga was only available for what a decade in total.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 18th Jan 2007 13:41
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Nah you're looking at the wrong numbers. Even Hall of Light, one of the larger and better Amiga games sites around, only has just over 5000 games listed. That's in total, and probably even includes random PD and Shareware games too.

I know the ST was quite similar, around 3000 commercial titles + easily another 3k worth of public domain games. But you see what I mean now? We're not even breaking the 10,000 mark combining the two leading 16-bit machines of the 90s! I'm still finding this quite fascinating, and maybe I'll research it properly one day

Heavy on the Magick
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