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Geek Culture / Microsoft, Vista, and Indy Developers.

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KeithC
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 18:56
Here's an interesting article I read, dealing with MicroSoft's approach to the Indy Developer.

dab
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 19:10
That's weird.
Vista sounds to be really annoying.

I think Microsoft should delete the vista source from their computers. Though the file will be too big for the recycle bin, and they'll have to delete it permanently.

Take heed, never take advantage of the things you need, never let your self be overcome by greed. Walk a strigh line, pick up your speed and try. Everyone deserves a piece of the pie By: Shaggy
Matt Rock
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 22:42
Quote: "The principal user experience problem with LUA’s is that when a consumer wants to download and install a game demo off the Internet, they must first click past the IE warning dialogs, and then respond to the security elevation dialog Vista pops up requiring an admin account name and password to enable the software installation."

I seriously hope this can be turned off. I'm desperate to hear at least one good thing about Vista (other than DX10 stuff), but thus far I'm coming up very, very dry.

Quote: "The intrusive dialogs are also oddly pointless, because Vista's frequent warning dialogs do nothing to differentiate legitimate commercial software from known hazardous products, so consumers will still mistakenly install malware."

Great, so the "heightened security" that Vista allegedly provides is actually a bottleneck for users and developers alike? Wonderful.

Quote: "One of the pieces of information a game has to supply to register with Game Explorer is a ESRB rating. Games that do not supply a rating will be subject to the “Not Rated” parental control setting. Since games are “trusted” to supply accurate ratings information, one might expect that they are also trusted to handle parental messaging themselves. Not so, any game that registers with Game Explorer becomes “subject” to Vista parental controls which will proceed to block the game from running and offer to delete the link to the game if you try to run it from anywhere on the system other than within the Game Explorer."

Well, so much for any of us making profitable games. Does this mean the glory days of the indie community are at an end?

Quote: "Interestingly, the obscure warning dialog that Vista presents offering to delete your game icon when you try to launch it is not the same warning Microsoft makes for the games they supply to the Game Explorer. So although we filed this problem as a bug during the Vista Beta, the only games Microsoft “fixed” it for were their own."

I've been saying it for years, and everyone said I was mad... Microsoft is planning to one day be the only game dev/ distribution company on the block.

Quote: "Since the Game Explorer is also inexplicably hard coded into Vista and “secured” from any modification, nobody can presumably fix its problems or otherwise augment it other than Microsoft. Considering the effort Microsoft must have invested in making the Game Explorer this onerous and immutable, it seems plausible that it was intended as a place holder for a subsequent game service offering from Microsoft."

You know how I'm always ranting and raving about corporate greed? Well guys... this is why.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 23:26
Not good news, I hope they sort this one out, otherwise they're turning away some audiences with Vista. I mean indie game makers will probably stay XP, I would have thought Microsoft would encourage indie game makers, especially with XNA and Direct X out there, if this article is correct, well then WinXP, MacOS X and Linux seem to be the only places for indies, at least we'll still have the expanding power of Open GL, Irrlicht, Torque and sticking to Direct X 9.

Quote: "I've been saying it for years, and everyone said I was mad.."


You are mad, but it doesn't make you wrong, nobody can help it if they assume you're mad when you aren't being mad when you usually are.

I hope this doesn't cause any issues for DBP and FPSC X10

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
Jeku
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 00:18
Well, you can't have everything. Either you have a less restrictive OS like XP with mounds of viruses, malware, spyware, etc. that can easily take control, or you have a more restrictive one with more of a pain in the butt to get things running, but more secure.

Peter H
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 00:22
Quote: "The intrusive dialogs are also oddly pointless, because Vista's frequent warning dialogs do nothing to differentiate legitimate commercial software from known hazardous products, so consumers will still mistakenly install malware. Kids will either have to ask their parents to respond to elevation dialogs per download they want to try, or have their own elevation account and password and continue to download whatever they want. "

this is eerily familiar to that mac add on security

"you are coming to a sad realization, approve or deny?"

One man, one lawnmower, plenty of angry groundhogs.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 00:28
Quote: "Well, you can't have everything. Either you have a less restrictive OS like XP with mounds of viruses, malware, spyware, etc. that can easily take control, or you have a more restrictive one with more of a pain in the butt to get things running, but more secure."


I suppose, unless they had some impenetrable way for the user to decide what goes in and what comes out, so if they do grab an indie game, they can play it once telling the security 'Yes I want to play this game'

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 00:36
Quote: "Well, you can't have everything. Either you have a less restrictive OS like XP with mounds of viruses, malware, spyware, etc. that can easily take control, or you have a more restrictive one with more of a pain in the butt to get things running, but more secure."

You have GOT to be kidding! All it takes is a little sense! I ran the NOD32 virus scanner, updated, after two years of no antivirus. Guess how many were found...

none.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
CattleRustler
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 00:42 Edited at: 12th Feb 2007 00:43
Quote: "You have GOT to be kidding! All it takes is a little sense! I ran the NOD32 virus scanner, updated, after two years of no antivirus. Guess how many were found...

none."

didnt you crash and reload your pc not too long ago? If so, wtf are you talking about. If not, my mistake.

Quote: "Does this mean the glory days of the indie community are at an end?"

the glory days, in general, are over.

Michael Moore needs this film:Aaron Russo's America: Freedom To Fascism
RonPaul'08
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 00:44
Erm... no.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
Matt Rock
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 01:20
Quote: "the glory days, in general, are over."

That's definitely the worst way we could kick of 2007, for us anyway . Ugh, what's it going to take to get Microsoft to understand the fundamental law of software engineering that David S. Platt proclaimed? "Your user is not you," that's something Microsoft needs to learn, or maybe alter Platt's saying and make it "Your user is unique and might want the option to turn all of your bullcrap, resource-hogging, capability-thwarting garbage off."

Does anyone remember any of the numerous times I've said I won't get Vista until I'm forced to? I'm changing that creed effective immediately. I will never get Vista, period. Microsoft might just end up driving me into not using PC's in the future, that or I'll end up getting Linux (which I'd rather not be forced to do, but what choice would I have?). I take it this is why some people use Macs?


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Code Dragon
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 01:41
Quote: "The principal user experience problem with LUA’s is that when a consumer wants to download and install a game demo off the Internet, they must first click past the IE warning dialogs, and then respond to the security elevation dialog Vista pops up requiring an admin account name and password to enable the software installation."
I seriously hope this can be turned off. I'm desperate to hear at least one good thing about Vista (other than DX10 stuff), but thus far I'm coming up very, very dry."


That's probably my least favorite feature of Windows. If I want to send an exe to someone, I have to rename the extension, zip it, rename the zip, send it, and use a bat file to execute it. I'm sick of Windows saying it's not going to obey my commands because it thinks the exe might be harmful. Computers should obey people before they protect themselves, that's one of the laws of robotics if I'm correct.

LD52
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 01:51
Quote: "Computers should obey people before they protect themselves, that's one of the laws of robotics if I'm correct."


Hopefully they will or it'll be like terminator movies lol jokes but yeah robots and computers should do what you want first before they protect themselves !
indi
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 02:03 Edited at: 12th Feb 2007 02:03
we just need to buy the right version.

I found the one we need



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the_winch
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 02:40 Edited at: 12th Feb 2007 02:43
I'm not too sure how much of that article was a genuine problem and how much of it was simply publicity seeking by the game developer.

Install a copy of win95 and laugh at all the features showcased in the installer. A lot of them failed dismally and disappeared. Microsoft always has loads of great new ideas for an OS release but a lot of them are rubbish and quickly disappear. I wouldn't be surprised if they know most of them are rubbish, they just need features for the product launch.

Quote: "You have GOT to be kidding! All it takes is a little sense! I ran the NOD32 virus scanner, updated, after two years of no antivirus. Guess how many were found... None"


Viruses are not the whole problem. Giving an installer admin privileges so it can do whatever it wants can cause problems. It's easy to end up with dozens of icons in the system tray and god knows what running in the background. Stopping this from happening and sorting it out when it does is really much harder than it should be.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
Jeku
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 03:10
Quote: "That's probably my least favorite feature of Windows. If I want to send an exe to someone, I have to rename the extension, zip it, rename the zip, send it, and use a bat file to execute it. I'm sick of Windows saying it's not going to obey my commands because it thinks the exe might be harmful. Computers should obey people before they protect themselves, that's one of the laws of robotics if I'm correct."


Um, that's because you downloaded it with IE and sent it with Oulook Express or some sort. I've never had issues with sending, running, downloading EXEs-- never had to rename, etc.

Agent Dink
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 05:43
Quote: "Well, you can't have everything. Either you have a less restrictive OS like XP with mounds of viruses, malware, spyware, etc. that can easily take control, or you have a more restrictive one with more of a pain in the butt to get things running, but more secure."


Sounds like a certain government... Microsoft is in cahoots with ole' Dubya

Seriously though, I'm getting tired of Microsoft. This stuff is just whacked out. Eventually we'll have to contact Microsoft before we can install something, because people are too stupid to press the "No" button when something suspicious wants to be installed. If someone's computer contracts a virus it's usually their own careless fault.

Sometimes the only way over a wall is to pile up enough bodies to climb over - Dave W.
Wiggett
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 06:53
see this is where the problem lies, microsoft will continue to do what they think is right for them. What we suffer from is that we rely on their OS's to develop our software. It's just unfortunate that there is no DBP for MAC or LINUX. If there was better services, more software and game dev stuff for those OS's then ther ewouldn't be a problem. Don't get me wrong I have a mac and i prefer windows, but I am all for some better OS that isn't about killing your freedom.

Syndicate remastered: Corporate persuasion through urban violence.
Van B
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 08:35
That's not my chief concearn.

Vista randomly refusing write permission in software is, like when you try to save a file, often you'll get file access errors in Vista for no good reason. If you go and give all permission for the entire folder structure of your game, no difference. Just hope nobody ever wants to design levels in Vista or save their high scores, because that's a problem I discovered on day 1. Needless to say Vista is gone and XP is back, because it actually lets you operate.

M$ need a dry slap, they need to get a clue, or all us game dev's will turn into Vista hating malware creators.

''Stick that in your text and scroll it!.''
Jeku
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 09:42
Quote: "Vista randomly refusing write permission in software is, like when you try to save a file, often you'll get file access errors in Vista for no good reason. If you go and give all permission for the entire folder structure of your game, no difference. Just hope nobody ever wants to design levels in Vista or save their high scores, because that's a problem I discovered on day 1. Needless to say Vista is gone and XP is back, because it actually lets you operate."


Was that the beta or the full version? Most of us have tried the beta, but it's not really fair to judge the OS by it. Just wondering.

Van B
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 09:58
Full version, my brothers PC - but that's not the only issue, it seems that despite Vista's OTT security policy, some programs just run riot - like Skype - g/f installs Skype so she can talk to her fellow Bebo idiots, and every webpage opens up then instantly goes to Skype.

Anyhoo, it'll take a lot to get me switched now, I'll wait on someone reporting good things about it before I upgrade.

On a different note, I spotted a blooper in that M$ Mobile advert they're showing on the Hotmail webpage (attached), notice the hand there dropping snakes on the gimps head - you'd think they'd have spotted that.

''Stick that in your text and scroll it!.''

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 10:06
Quote: "or all us game dev's will turn into Vista hating malware creators."


Haha, I think you'll find malware creators are bigger losers than indie game makers, I mean at least we have a life, friends etc.

Quote: "What we suffer from is that we rely on their OS's to develop our software. It's just unfortunate that there is no DBP for MAC or LINUX."


That is a shame, and we know why it can't happen either, unless they decided to completely recode it for Mac and Linux, but C++ with Irrlicht or Ogre is fairly simple enough, so once the Vista invasion has begun, we indies will still have a solution.

Also I must say, man Microsoft must be getting a lot of hate mail for this.

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
Zaibatsu
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 16:16
Quote: "Well, you can't have everything. Either you have a less restrictive OS like XP with mounds of viruses, malware, spyware, etc. that can easily take control, or you have a more restrictive one with more of a pain in the butt to get things running, but more secure.
"


I'll take the first one.

"I admire its purity, a survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality"

"Once again you've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory!"
Benjamin
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 16:25
Quote: "Haha, I think you'll find malware creators are bigger losers than indie game makers, I mean at least we have a life, friends etc."

So you're calling indie game makers losers now?

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 17:18
Lemme rephrase that one...


I think you'll find malware creators are bigger GEEKS than indie game makers.

You can't deny game dev being a geek thing, well you can, but it's healthy not to delude yourself

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
Matt Rock
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 23:56
Quote: " I mean at least we have a life, friends etc."

And we can get paid for what we do (those of us who actually try I mean). badware dorks just do it because they have a grudge or something.

A question... when bots attack my website with ads for some miracle drug, why do they use the pharmaceutical company's name? I highly doubt the people who make Lunesta and Viagra are paying some goofy kid to advertise their products on a forum with less than 10 regular humans registered on it . Can someone explain their logic to me?


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Agent Dink
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 01:51
Quote: "I mean at least we have a life, friends etc."


We do?

Sometimes the only way over a wall is to pile up enough bodies to climb over - Dave W.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 10:53
Fine... "I mean at least some of us have a life, friends etc."

Anyone else wanna make me rephrase my completely inaccurate picture of an indie game dev.

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
David R
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Posted: 14th Feb 2007 14:32 Edited at: 14th Feb 2007 14:33
Quote: "Hacker Joanna Rutkowska has flagged a "very severe hole" in the design of Windows Vista's User Account Controls (UAC) feature. The issue is that Vista automatically assumes that all setup programs (application installers) should be run with administrator privileges — and gives the user no option to let them run without elevated privileges. This means that a freeware Tetris installer would be allowed to load kernel drivers. Microsoft's Mark Russinovich acknowledges the risk factor but says it was a 'design choice' to balance security with ease of use"



Oh dear....http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=29


"History shall be kind to me, for I intend to write it" - Winston Churchill
Torrey
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Posted: 14th Feb 2007 15:02 Edited at: 14th Feb 2007 15:03
Personally, I liked developing for the 2k/2k3/xp platform. Watching videos on Channel 9 during the development of Vista, I was impressed with the work, quality, and effort behind it all (the underlying kernel and application interfaces). It wasn't until I started beta testing the OS that I realized I disliked the way it was presented.

Microsoft reminds me of President Bush in the idea that they both stand fully behind their ideas and goals. Just as it hurt Bush's approval rating, it's going to hurt Microsoft in the long run. Although, I'm sure we'll all likely use MS products (seems unavoidable), the platforms to look for in the coming years will be Mac and Linux. It'll take some time for MS to work out the kinks in their Vista OS, but will it be too late?

Jess T
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Posted: 15th Feb 2007 10:30
All this extra Security crap is just a gimmik for MS to sell more copies of their OS.
It's when sad things like the Blaster Worm hits the news that MS realize they can capitolize off their own mistakes.

Either way, it'll be a long time (if at all) before I downgrade to Vista. And, in all honesty, if things like the LUA are able to be passed by not-so-out-of-the-box ways, then I'll probably do it.

It's a sad reality when you don't have control over your own possesions.

Nintendo DS & Dominos :: DS Dominos
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Feb 2007 11:26
Well, from the sounds of things, Microsoft are going downhill, shame really, because they could do some good stuff, if they don't fix their issues, these crazy Mac ads might actually appeal to people who have PC problems with Vista. To me the features of a Mac are beginning to outweigh on my end, because although more expensive, but I feel now it would be a good investment if I want to carry on with indie game dev, as Open GL will continue to grow more powerful whilst DX9 won't.

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
Jeku
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Posted: 15th Feb 2007 21:57
Um, the OS was JUST released. XP and 2k have had YEARS to fine tune and patch to a solid, stable version. Are you guys running a tin-foil hat convention or something?

David R
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Posted: 15th Feb 2007 22:12
Vista is very much unlike XP. In plain-ish terms, it's crap. XP was pretty stable and very much usable upon release (although it did have security qualms for a while).

Vista is annoying, unstable (in some 'lesser' areas) and unpolished. I can't believe we've been waiting 5 odd years for a polished turd


"History shall be kind to me, for I intend to write it" - Winston Churchill
Jess T
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Posted: 16th Feb 2007 06:33 Edited at: 16th Feb 2007 06:34
Jeku, (at least from my point of view) it's not about the time it's been released, it's about the direction that MS are taking the OS.
[EDIT] Which, by the way, started with 'optional' segments of XP that are now 'manditory' [/EDIT]

Sure, it's an Operating System, and sure, it should handle your PC well enough so that the user has a plesant enough experience whilst handling such a complex machine as a Computer. But, it should not take away the aspects of control that make your computer your computer.

Hence what I was saying about "It's a sad reality when you don't have control over your own possesions."

Personally, I am slightly paranoid, but then again, every one in the universe has that (HHGTTG reference there ). I'm paranoid about the way M$ is slowly turning into its own psuedo-government and taking 'control' of your computer (and hence internet) lives based on some unwritten philosophy that it's ok to take away a users control over their own possesions.
But then, that's me just getting a little koo-koo in the head

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Steve J
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Posted: 16th Feb 2007 07:01
@Jess T: While Thats doubleplusgood and all, really this isnt going to turn into some crazy crap like that=P. It is just microsoft protecting itself in the age of lawsuits for retarded things...

jasonhtml
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Posted: 16th Feb 2007 09:06
Quote: "Well, so much for any of us making profitable games. Does this mean the glory days of the indie community are at an end?"


NEVER! We will fight until we win! (or lose ) if microsoft adds too many restrictive features, we should promote a strike at their main office or something

Matt Rock
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Posted: 16th Feb 2007 22:02
Quote: "It's a sad reality when you don't have control over your own possesions."

Amen to that!

Quote: "NEVER! We will fight until we win! (or lose ) if microsoft adds too many restrictive features, we should promote a strike at their main office or something "

I'm down for that! But I wonder how many of us it would take to make an impression... there would need to be a lot of us if we wanted to make the nightly news. But hey, my girlfriend is from that area, it would give her an excuse to visit her parents, so count me in!


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Indigo
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Posted: 16th Feb 2007 22:34 Edited at: 16th Feb 2007 22:34
This is finally Mac's chance to make a come-back. Apple screwed up royally in the beginning allowing Microsoft to use prototype models of the mac. Finally, If Apple can see the importance of MS's flaws, they can turn the tables completely.

oh, and about the NOD32 comment earlier: If Microsoft integrated the genius of NOD32, there simply would be no problems. This program is by far the best protection software I have ever used and remains virtually invisible until you need it. WinXP + NOD32 > WinVista

besides, windows vista was just a lame attempt to look more like a mac anyway. the bastards.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 16th Feb 2007 22:48
Well, I'm definitely not jumping on the Mac wagon. The ONLY way the Mac could ever even consider overpowering the PC is if it opens up its compatability to include Windows-based software. They were talking about that a few years ago as I recall but obviously nothing has come of it. But I'm sure I could get away with saying "Mac sucks" on this forum and I'll bet a few people would agree, hehe.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 16th Feb 2007 23:09
Quote: "But I'm sure I could get away with saying "Mac sucks" on this forum and I'll bet a few people would agree, hehe."


And you'll wind others up and start a Mac vs PC debate, we just had one, don't you dare think of starting another one, or I'm so spamming your inbox.

Well, I hope Microsoft pickup the pace with Vista, or Mac might actually win in the long run, but we can't say that without knowing what the future will hold for Microsoft, they might patch up Vista's current problems, or find away to, I dunno, blow up the computers of anyone who tries to hack the Operating system or making viruses (But not a good idea if a hacker gets on the right side of it, even if it would make an amusing headline on the morning newspaper ) If that was the case, you could use Vista to play some kickass jokes on your friends, and then probably arrested for murder and a guilty conscience.

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
VR2
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Posted: 17th Feb 2007 01:38
So, the chap who wrote that article is CEO of Wild Tangent is he?

WT (as it has become known) has been picked up by my Virus checker for many a year now, since they started delivering adware with their installers.

So the fact that he's now having a rant saying that Microsoft is now putting him out of business is a bit rich since his company have sold out to the adware tycoons. I just don't think I can trust what he is saying.

On top of that, Microsoft have recently released the FREE XNA Studio express, aimed directly at the hobbiest game programmer (us!). I understand they are also aiming to get an amature game sharing space on XBox live arcade in the near future. They are currently runing competitions with the prospect of publishing as a prize. To me, it looks like Microsoft hve made it policy to support the hobbiest game developer.

To say that Vista will kill all this off is going a bit far IMHO. At least I very much HOPE it is!


Quote: "I'm paranoid about the way M$ is slowly turning into its own psuedo-government and taking 'control' of your computer (and hence internet) lives based on some unwritten philosophy that it's ok to take away a users control over their own possesions.
"


Perhaps Bush has become the new CEO for Microsoft?
Agent Dink
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Posted: 17th Feb 2007 01:40
That's exactly why I have never considered a Mac before. They just don't have any built in compatibility with windows programs. I don't want to have to run through another OS for a few nice things and have it bottleneck everything else because I can only use a select few programs or games. That's also why I don't use Linux. I just don't see any advantage to it right now.

Sometimes the only way over a wall is to pile up enough bodies to climb over - Dave W.
Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th Feb 2007 01:44 Edited at: 17th Feb 2007 01:47
There's a huge difference between hobbyist game designers and indie game designers. Hobbyists make games for fun, and indie developers make games for money. And there's quite a few of us here who fit into that latter category, and for us, this sucks.

I don't want to make games for the 360 (which is really all XNA is good for at the end of the day). I have my reasons for that, but know that I wouldn't develop for the PS3 either (not that I could afford it, but if I could, I wouldn't). I'm just not into console development, never have been, more than likely never will be. If Vista is going to keep me from developing games on the PC, then I'll be forced into using Linux, because I'm certainly not giving up independent game development because Microsoft wants me to (or at least it looks like they want us to), and definitely not if they try to force it on me.

I'm with Jason... we should strike Microsoft. Picket them into submission. I mean seriously, what else could we possibly do? Well, I guess we could NOT buy Vista, which won't be a problem for me... but then there's a billion others who will, so it's a minute profit loss to them. Heck, they probably wouldn't even notice. So yeah, let's picket!

Edit: And yes, I'm serious here. I know that probably came across as a joke... no, I'm completely serious. If a bunch of people protested, it might stir up enough media attention to make Microsoft at least think about changing something. And before Jeku says it , no, this isn't like a war protest, which doesn't have any sort of effect. This is an industry, albeit a small one, and it's an industry that pays taxes in the United States and abroad... I'm sure a few people would take notice if that happened!


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Steve J
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Posted: 17th Feb 2007 01:52
@Matt: o Noes!! Dont do it, then we will just be unpersons and microsoft will destroy all references to us all.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th Feb 2007 01:56
Aren't we already unpersons to Microsoft? I mean have you ever called their tech support hotline and talked with an actual human being? I haven't been able to yet.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Agent Dink
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Posted: 17th Feb 2007 01:56
Quote: "I'm with Jason... we should strike Microsoft."


I'll help. At least once my copy of Vista arrives and I see how crap it is (free upgrade with my laptop, no way I paid for it yet!)

Sometimes the only way over a wall is to pile up enough bodies to climb over - Dave W.
jasonhtml
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Posted: 17th Feb 2007 02:16
Quote: "But I'm sure I could get away with saying "Mac sucks" on this forum and I'll bet a few people would agree, hehe."


Hear hear!

Quote: "I'm with Jason... we should strike Microsoft. Picket them into submission. I mean seriously, what else could we possibly do? Well, I guess we could NOT buy Vista, which won't be a problem for me... but then there's a billion others who will, so it's a minute profit loss to them. Heck, they probably wouldn't even notice. So yeah, let's picket!

Edit: And yes, I'm serious here. I know that probably came across as a joke... no, I'm completely serious. If a bunch of people protested, it might stir up enough media attention to make Microsoft at least think about changing something. And before Jeku says it , no, this isn't like a war protest, which doesn't have any sort of effect. This is an industry, albeit a small one, and it's an industry that pays taxes in the United States and abroad... I'm sure a few people would take notice if that happened!"


who ever said that was a joke!? lol.

so, we got me, dink, and matt. 3 man army, w00t!

Steve J
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Posted: 17th Feb 2007 02:40
uh matt, I have. Plenty of times. Always with an indian at first, but I get americans if I want to pay extra=P

Agent Dink
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Posted: 17th Feb 2007 02:59
Well, I called Xbox tech support once and I got an Indian right after the automated answering service where you have to press 100 buttons to find a person.

It was rather funny though. I told him my e-mail address which was metalhed2 at blah.blah and I heard him type it in, then he started making small talk, which was really abnormal for tech support. He asked "Are you a rocker?" So I answered, then he asked a few more questions about my problem. Then when he was waiting for something on his computer he started asking what bands I liked Metallica, Linkin' Park etc... Hehe. It was kinda funny.

Sometimes the only way over a wall is to pile up enough bodies to climb over - Dave W.

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