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Geek Culture / The generation of computer game and program selling making you millions - over?

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Chenak
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 00:12
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Maybe I've been working on a while for a viable copy protection method which will probably be in my masters dissertation when I can finally afford to do it. My dad just says use a dongle
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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 00:29
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Oooh that would be a great idea for a masters dissertation!


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 01:25
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Quote: "My dad just says use a dongle "


Works for lightwave, well - except I think there are Lightwave pirates too,


Quote: "So I take it you don't use Steam at all? In the future we'll be buying all of our games on apps like Steam, which require online activation. Get with the times, man."


I don't think 'get with the times' is a strong argument - perhaps we will be buying games off of the internet (though I think it'd remove the element of "I wonder what's in my birthday present! Oh my god, Half Life 3, thank you Mum!" Such things have a certain sentimental value, rather than, "quick son, check your steam account for your presents")

But why do we need to connect to the internet in order to play an offline game? The security argument is out of the window, because so far (and as far as I am aware) all attempts at copyright protection have failed, because people have managed to find away around the security and then release torrents. Perhaps the effort would work better instead of trying to keep the burgalars away, but coming up with a better way of catching the burgalars so that they can be prosecuted and then deter software pirates more. (You could use the analogy, you could use can come up with innovation to keep the burgalars out of the home, but once they've nicked your TV then there's bugger all else your security system can do, (luckily a security system in the real world is more effective, because it's a lot easier to get caught when you're burgalar))

Which rules out the argument for online connection to PLAY games - yeah you can download from the net, but you should be able to play with out it.

LIKE I said Jeku, if you're on one of the more lower end of the spectrum in the system requirements, connecting to the internet will eat up the resources - you'll have internet program (like steam) running in the back ground with the game, then you'll have your security up. And I'm sure gamers will want to stretch their computers as far as possible, having resource hogs in the background means you'd have to buy a new computer sooner or new hardware. I know computers are speeding up and that won't be much of a problem. But I found steam and connecting to the internet to be a real pain in the bum with my computer, upgraded the ram, it was still a pain, even when I turned internet security off.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 01:35
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When I got the orange box, I was really angry when I found out I needed a fast internet connection. I had dialup, and I couldn't play any of the 5 games I just paid for.

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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 01:42 Edited at: 10th Jun 2008 01:43
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There's no point in debating, online activation is where the industry is going. TGC did it a few years back, Steam is the leader of online distribution, and many of the publishers are at wits end. If you don't agree with it, don't buy the game. Is that fair?

On the cover of Mass Effect (I'm looking at it now) it says INTERNET CONNECTION REQUIRED FOR GAMEPLAY

When you pick the game up off the shelf, you see that. If you're still using a 300baud modem or you live in the jungle with no running water or Internet, don't buy the game. Companies give you fair warning.

Another thing, yes I know that piracy doesn't stop regardless of protection. That being said, every single day longer it takes the hackers to circumvent the protection is extra $$$ (millions for some) for the developers and publisher. Basic business sense will dictate that you must have tougher protection to have the game cracked at a slower rate to have the highest initial return. Sure, Half-Life 2 is cracked, but I remember when it first came out it took at least a few days before the final version was cracked. That's a big deal to the publishers, and you can choose to believe that or not.

EDIT

Quote: "When I got the orange box, I was really angry when I found out I needed a fast internet connection."


I call shenanigans. I have a friend on dialup who played Orange Box. Takes longer to download patches, that's it.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 01:51
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Quote: "If you don't agree with it, don't buy the game. Is that fair?"


Haha, and then they'll turn around and tell us we're all pirating it.


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Thraxas
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 02:32
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Quote: "When I got the orange box, I was really angry when I found out I needed a fast internet connection. I had dialup, and I couldn't play any of the 5 games I just paid for.
"


I managed to play 4 of the games (obviously not TF2) with a dial-up connection. Half Life 2 didn't even need to update, ALL the files were on the discs... For the others (and for any large files I needed to download when on dial-up)I would set them up before bed and when I woke up ta-dah all up to date...

As for all this talk of steam using up valuable resources and slowing things down, I don't believe it's really a huge resource hog... I'm pretty sure FireFox uses more resources than Steam...

Plus once you've installed your games on steams, you just need to go into offline mode and not worry about connecting it to the internet again, the only reason being imo if you are having problems and need to install a patch...

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tha_rami
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 04:04 Edited at: 10th Jun 2008 04:05
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Quote: "Haha, and then they'll turn around and tell us we're all pirating it."

You just said what I was thinking. They're making the most bizarre additions for this 'so-called' protections. If they don't care about their customers, I can't see why their customers should care about them. This whole debate is just one of the reasons why PC-gaming is on the decline: did you ever see a console game with this sort of crap? Exactly: no. Installing and playing games on a PC nowadays seems only feasible if you crack out all the system-hogging 'protection', usually rendering your game only half-usable, thus making cracking only more attractive.

That Mass Effect says it requires an internet connection is great. Tell the mother who bought the game as a present for her son without internet in, lets say, a rural area in Egypt, deal? No wonder he asks a friend of his for a cracked copy. And here I was, just a few weeks ago, trying to explain why that's bad for the industry. The industry itself is bad for the industry. Blech.


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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 04:40
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Quote: "I call shenanigans. I have a friend on dialup who played Orange Box. Takes longer to download patches, that's it."


Does his dialup randomly disconnect throughout the day? Mine did.

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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 08:15 Edited at: 10th Jun 2008 08:18
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@tha_rami - Holy overraction.

This industry is not built on trust. 99% of users can't be trusted to buy software if they absolutely don't have to. Because there is no trust, developers have no choice but to implement some kind of copy protection. Do you disagree with that?

Every kind of copy protection has some kind of irritant the honest consumer must deal with, albeit a dongle, securerom, internet activation, or dozens of other methods. That is a tradeoff and it can't be disputed. There's a great article on Slashdot on the history of copy protection, and it's widely agreed that it's a necessary evil of the industry.

Quote: "did you ever see a console game with this sort of crap?"


Traditionally consoles have a far less percentage of pirates, because each system is brand new. The PC has been virtually the same for decades-- the same type of OS, same type of processor, etc. PC gaming is on the decline because of pirates, not because of harsh copy protection Usually by the time a console is cracked and there are emulators out for it, that generation is over.

Quote: "Tell the mother who bought the game as a present for her son without internet in, lets say, a rural area in Egypt, deal?"


Rofl. What's the difference between that and, say, an Internet requirement for an MMOG? You can't blame the developers for stupid mothers. That's insane. Next you'll be blaming the developers because a granny buys her grandkid a DS game that won't work on his PSP Or a kid who buys WOW but can't play it because there's no Internet in his area. Honestly, that complaint is moot, buddy.

Quote: "Does his dialup randomly disconnect throughout the day? Mine did."


And that is Valve's problem how?


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 12:21
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Quote: "If you don't agree with it, don't buy the game. Is that fair?"


Would it be better if I just pirated them instead? Versions that don't need to connect to the internet?

Well if that's the way the industry is going forward, then I see unhappy customers and less people buying their products - not a smart market then? I don't see the advantages of having to connect to the internet during GAMEPLAY, there are advantages to internet connection to download a game - as long as you're not on dial-up or any slow internet, in that case I'd prefer to download it onto my USB with an activation code and then install it. (say if my main PC wasn't able to connect or I use an internet cafe or another computer.)

I remember when my friend first told me about Half Life 2 when he bought it, he said it was an amazing game, but it took 2/3 hours to get the internet stuff done. Surely things should be at the convenience on gamers - to me that's a long install time. This internet activation stuff is at the inconvience on certain gamers and sometimes a problem. You say "don't buy the game", then that suggests a problem, that means if I decide I can't play their game, then I won't, that means my £30/£40 goes elsewhere - multiply that by people with similar problems and that's less business for them.

And if I remember correctly, you complained about the install times on the PS3, when they're not needed - but some suggested that they are, well that problem there was at the inconvenience of the gamer, but at the convenience of the developer.

Quote: "Quote: "Does his dialup randomly disconnect throughout the day? Mine did."

And that is Valve's problem how?"


Simple, customer satisfaction - Valve making a move that is problematic for customers is their problem.

Quote: "Sure, Half-Life 2 is cracked, but I remember when it first came out it took at least a few days before the final version was cracked. That's a big deal to the publishers, and you can choose to believe that or not"


A few days different may make a different in $$$, wouldn't it be better to spend the resources on internet activation on trying to actively reduce the pirates on the internet? Tracking them, suing them etc.



At the end of the day, shouldn't the developers be making the customers happy so that the customers come back and buy their products, if you put in more new annoyances for them, then they're going to be put off - if it means not playing their PC games, they're resort to other means, if they can afford it they might go to console gaming, pirate or just live without those games. To be frank, I'm not going to buy an XBox 360, I'm not going to pirate, but luckily for I the customers and the money that goes to the developer I am replacing my desktop.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 12:45
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Quote: "And that is Valve's problem how?"


True, it's not, but it adds to the point of having a crappy internet connection rather than a fast (or stable) one.

Eventually people who do not have internet connections won't be able to play games at all.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 15:00
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I don't pirate games, but I always no-CD crack them because my brother doesn't look after the discs when he borrows them. I personally dislike games that insist upon an internet check, as living out in the middle of nowhere, (not by choice) BT are worthless and my internet is as stable as a house of cards during the apocalypse. Perhaps a little less. Switching providers doesn't do anything either because they all run from BT's monopoly circuit.


I fail at life. No, really.
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KeithC
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 16:39
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Quote: "So I take it you don't use Steam at all?"

Steam is the Devil!

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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 18:36 Edited at: 10th Jun 2008 18:47
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Quote: "I don't see the advantages of having to connect to the internet during GAMEPLAY"


And again, for the 100th time, Mass Effect only connects at install time. One time. That's it.

Quote: "but it took 2/3 hours to get the internet stuff done. Surely things should be at the convenience on gamers - to me that's a long install time."


Um, that's probably because he was downloading patches. Now you're blaming download speed on the developers? Gosh, is nothing the responsibility of the customer? Maybe your friend would like the game instantly beamed to his computer with a laser?

Quote: "that means if I decide I can't play their game, then I won't, that means my £30/£40 goes elsewhere - multiply that by people with similar problems and that's less business for them."


Believe it or not we're all consumers with a choice. Just as I wouldn't buy an MMORPG because I don't want to pay $15 a month-- someone shouldn't buy Half-Life 2 if they don't have an internet connection. It's listed on the box as a requirement! On Mass Effect that requirement is right on the front cover!

Quote: "Simple, customer satisfaction - Valve making a move that is problematic for customers is their problem."


What do people expect!?! When you download a game that's several gigs, standard sense dictates it will take a long time on dialup. Are people really that naive?

Quote: "A few days different may make a different in $$$, wouldn't it be better to spend the resources on internet activation on trying to actively reduce the pirates on the internet?"


EDIT:

How do you suggest the developers go after the piraters in Asia for example?

Quote: "shouldn't the developers be making the customers happy so that the customers come back and buy their products, if you put in more new annoyances for them, then they're going to be put off"


Oh I see, so maybe a company should make the game available for free from their website with an honour system with a Paypal button? If developers did absolutely nothing, the sales will make *no difference*. Some recent games have been released with no copy protection, and their sales have not skyrocketed. Sins of a Solar Empire has no online activation and no copy protection on the disc. Their sales were good but nothing out of this world. Proof that removing copy protection will not increase your sales.

Quote: "And if I remember correctly, you complained about the install times on the PS3, when they're not needed - but some suggested that they are, well that problem there was at the inconvenience of the gamer, but at the convenience of the developer."


Can you explain why that is relevant to this conversation?

Quote: "Eventually people who do not have internet connections won't be able to play games at all."


If the game says you must have Internet, then, odds are, you will need the Internet to play

I guess nobody has anything to say about my comments on MMOGs? Do you think they don't have copy protection? Do you blame the developers when a granny buys her kid a copy of WOW when they're only on dial-up?

Quote: "I personally dislike games that insist upon an internet check"


As far as I know, no disc-based games do an internet check everytime you start it up. Which games are you referring to?


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bitJericho
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 18:51 Edited at: 10th Jun 2008 18:53
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Quote: "Their sales were good but nothing out of this world. Proof that removing copy protection will not increase your sales."


I think you meant that having no copyright protection won't hurt your sales.

Who markets a game as "No copyright protection"? I'm sure the only bonus they got out of it was happier customers.

Who knows, the game might've done worse had they had copyright protection. You know, with returns and stuff.

Quote: "I guess nobody has anything to say about my comments on MMOGs? Do you think they don't have copy protection? Do you blame the developers when a granny buys her kid a copy of WOW when they're only on dial-up?"


What are we supposed to say? "Oh well, you shouldn't need internet to play WoW."

Please, an MMO is not a regular case. You can't play Crysis multiplayer over the internet without the internet, would you blame the developers for that?

If wow had an offline mode, and implemented some sort of copyright protection, we'd be saying the same thing about it.

But really, in all honesty, copyright protection is a joke.

The only way to make copyright protection work is to implement a hardware solution, built right into the computer. Just like blu-ray (though it's fallible too).

In using my mystic powers, I shall see the future, behold:

"Oh sorry, you can't play this game because you didn't upgrade yet to the windows 15 PC hardware card, even though this game in no way requires it, but the copyright firmware needs updating."



I mean, this is honestly where it's heading, and I'm sure you're cool with it, but I'm not.


Hurray for teh logd!
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David R
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 19:15
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Quote: "Now you're blaming download speed on the developers? Gosh, is nothing the responsibility of the customer? "


The customer is always right.

Developers and publishers can make all the excuses they want, but consumers vote with their wallets.

I foresee that annoying/intrusive, or non-functioning anti-piracy systems (false positives etc.) are likely to drive piracy rates up rather than down - why should a consumer take a risk with some OTT anti piracy mechanism when they can play the game with no issues for completely free?


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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 21:44
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Quote: "The customer is always right."


So if the customer doesn't download at broadband speeds with their dialup, they're right to blame the developers? Please.

Quote: "What are we supposed to say? "Oh well, you shouldn't need internet to play WoW.""


I'm simply drawing a correlation between needing the Internet to activate a game ONE TIME to having to have the Internet for playing a game. tha_rami stated an example where a poor mother buys Mass Effect for her boy in Egypt but lo and behold it requires online activation and they don't have the Internet. I was merely drawing a parallel and saying it's no different than if a poor mother buys her kid WOW and doesn't realize it requires the Internet and a monthly fee.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 22:31
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Ah, sorry on that one.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 23:21
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Quote: "And again, for the 100th time, Mass Effect only connects at install time. One time. That's it."


Obviously I'm not talking or complaining about Mass Effect - I don't have it and have not even looked at it, but might do now that I have the hardware.

Quote: "Um, that's probably because he was downloading patches. Now you're blaming download speed on the developers? Gosh, is nothing the responsibility of the customer? Maybe your friend would like the game instantly beamed to his computer with a laser?"


He didn't seem to think that they were, nevertheless I wasn't there, so I wouldn't know if he was mistaken. But I don't think he needed that internet connection to install or run...Though I'll settle at 'install' because you can't have everything the way you want.

Quote: "Believe it or not we're all consumers with a choice. Just as I wouldn't buy an MMORPG because I don't want to pay $15 a month-- someone shouldn't buy Half-Life 2 if they don't have an internet connection. It's listed on the box as a requirement! On Mass Effect that requirement is right on the front cover!"


Half Life was problem for me, simple because I haven't been able to connect to the internet to play it, I'd hope paying for a game, I'd be able to play it any time I want - you keep emphasising Mass Effect, wel if Half Life had a 1-internet connect thing, then it would be so bad. Of course we have a choice, but when developers make moves like that then annoy willing customers and turn down their business because of it. If you're saying this is the 'future' of gaming, then I'd best make sure I'm in range of a wireless HUB is I want to play a game right? And not play it when I want to like with a console? Meaning splashing out more cash? It wouldn't be step forward if it reduces the number of PC gamers...unless it's a step forward for the console market? Which means the purchasers will be more out of pocket. Unless they revert to piracy - I mean if I can wait a few days after a game is release it'd be easy to download it in a location with internet and not have to connect after that right? Except for Mass Effect of course.


On the other hand, I suppose it means the indie market can provide games to people if they don't like where the game industry is going.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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David R
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Posted: 11th Jun 2008 00:16 Edited at: 11th Jun 2008 00:20
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Quote: "So if the customer doesn't download at broadband speeds with their dialup, they're right to blame the developers? Please."


Why do they need to download? A paying customer doesn't give a monkeys about piracy, because they have paid for the game, and they don't expect to wait to download anything. Why bother buying a CD if it downloads?

I know it's stupid, and customers don't have any right to blame developers and it's a natural assumption that they have the internet etc. etc. but the customer is always right. I'm not saying they can blame the speed as such, but the size of downloads (or the need for downloads) needs to be cut down or cut down upon. I hate all this consumer winging crud too, but until we realise that lots of people don't have fast internet, and can't afford to spend ages online activating games, we won't expand our audience as an industry.

As I said before, by effectively penalising paying customers, the industry is just pushing them towards piracy rather than pulling them away from it, and limits the amount of people who can (or will) play a game

EDIT:
Quote: "someone shouldn't buy Half-Life 2 if they don't have an internet connection. It's listed on the box as a requirement"


I think specifying the internet as a requirement is very different from other specs. Other requirements are 'binary' - it either won't work or it will. Whereas the internet - most people understand, for instance, that HL2 isn't an online game. And they understand that they don't really need the internet - it's an artificial constraint rather than a requirement of play.

In this case, people dying to play HL2 but whom lack a connection will probably do anything to get it - e.g. borrowing a cracked CD copy or buying one from eBay. People want to play games, believe it or not, and will do anything to do so


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Jun 2008 00:49
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And I suppose then it's then a problem there for developers - their internet thing is meant to protect them in the period between release and people pirating them, but by doing so they increase the likelyhood of people demanding cracks, except for honest people like me and of course other people (not singling myself out) so I guess honest gamers and those without the ability to get hold of cracked/pirate versions suffer because of it?

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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Jeku
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Posted: 11th Jun 2008 01:59 Edited at: 11th Jun 2008 02:00
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I kind of see your point, but I can't speak for anyone else, but I've *never* cracked a game I legally bought because I'm put out by having to download a patch or put in a serial number. I've done a no-CD crack for my father one time but that's pretty much it.

I mean, I can't imagine buying something, installing it, and going "Oh man, I have to install a patch?? Off to the torrent sitez!"


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Jun 2008 02:08
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Well no, it's not that simple, but it does make the temptation more tempted - I've been tempted and the lack of a proper internet connection pushed the temptation closer, torrent from my laptop and then transfer via USB to my gaming comp (as my USB device still worked in it) and set it up. But I don't give in to temptation as easily.

But yes there are its downside, I suppose this is where the game industry has to keep inventing ways of doing things until they find an innovative method that keeps themselves happy and their customers happy and the optimal number of pirates and crackers out. Best wishes to them.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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Jeku
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Posted: 11th Jun 2008 02:22
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But from the perspective of the developers--- why torrent a product just because you hate their copy protection scheme? Why not buy the product and crack it? At least you're still funding the development of sequels, etc. I don't know if there's a direct correlation between archaic copy protection and number of pirated downloads. I could be wrong.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Jun 2008 02:50 Edited at: 11th Jun 2008 02:51
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Depends, how easy is it to crack something?

Quote: "I don't know if there's a direct correlation between archaic copy protection and number of pirated downloads."


I wouldn't know what the figures are - I suppose the different sides of the argument here seems to be developer vs gamer. Well I hope internet used protection isn't the future, so I hope the gaming industry will continue to experiment with new innovations until they get a system that benefits both sides. I mean people still pirate and the pirated software is availible, if you wanted to get illegal copies you still can get them easily enough. So it's still a problem for a developer - so it means they should still push on with new solutions (or put more time into catching and prosecuting pirates)

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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Thraxas
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Posted: 11th Jun 2008 04:58
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Quote: "I think specifying the internet as a requirement is very different from other specs. Other requirements are 'binary' - it either won't work or it will. Whereas the internet - most people understand, for instance, that HL2 isn't an online game. And they understand that they don't really need the internet - it's an artificial constraint rather than a requirement of play."


Yes but it clearly states you need Hi-speed internet as a minimum requirement for this game on the box, in bold letters... Just like you can't complain that 'game X' won't run on your pc because you don't meet the minimum video card/processor/memory requirements, you can't complain that you can't run HL2 on dial-up when hi-speed internet is listed as a MINIMUM requirement...

As much as I don't like it I feel that Internet activation etc. is going to become more prevalent in the future... And for every person who has a bad experience with it there are plenty who don't. I bought Bioshock, installed it, activated and played it without any problems whatsoever... I then visited the Bioshock forums to see hundreds of posts about how bad the system was, how it didn't work and I was honestly surprised because the process had gone so smoothly for me...

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David R
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Posted: 11th Jun 2008 19:46
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Quote: "
Yes but it clearly states you need Hi-speed internet as a minimum requirement for this game on the box, in bold letters... Just like you can't complain that 'game X' won't run on your pc because you don't meet the minimum video card/processor/memory requirements, you can't complain that you can't run HL2 on dial-up when hi-speed internet is listed as a MINIMUM requirement...
"


But, as I said, that's an artifical constraint. The player doesn't need an internet connection to play the game; it's only because of the whim of the developer that an internet connection is necessary to legitimately use the game. Someone with no or poor internet connection will either be put off, or use a method where they don't need to use the internet [as heavily] (e.g. get a dodgy disc off of eBay etc.)


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Thraxas
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Posted: 12th Jun 2008 00:47 Edited at: 12th Jun 2008 00:50
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Artificial or not it's listed... Anyway it's a moot point as Steam does work with dial-up... If the dial-up connection keeps crapping out while someone is updating then that is not Valve's fault. Your internet connection is not something they need to take into consideration. It's not even a problem if your dial-up disconnects itself anyway, as steam has a download manager so you don't lose your progress.

If you happen to be somewhere with no internet connection then there are plenty of games to be played where you don't need an internet connection...

In the end it's just a vicious circle... People pirate PC games so developers put in more obtrusive copy protection. Genuine buyers are fed up with their games not working due to the copy protection so they get a pirate copy. So PC game developers put even more copy protection on their games and so on...

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Libervurto
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Posted: 12th Jun 2008 05:19
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There have always been dishonest people who rip others off and get around paying for things, but what worries me now is that the average joe has no integrity or morals anymore.
It's because everyone is so isolated from each other that they can't even empathise anymore.

It is far better to complete a 10 line program than to start a 10,000 line program.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 14th Jun 2008 18:34
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Quote: "There have always been dishonest people who rip others off and get around paying for things, but what worries me now is that the average joe has no integrity or morals anymore.
It's because everyone is so isolated from each other that they can't even empathise anymore."


And as I've said in the past. This isn't the case. It's a feeling artificially created by the game companies in their crusade against piracy. When you start seeing numbers like "half of all the players have pirated copies", it's easy to start believing it.


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tha_rami
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 01:00 Edited at: 15th Jun 2008 01:03
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I have the feeling Jeku is on the opposite side of the 'customer' here.

Quote: "@tha_rami - Holy overraction."

Thanks, I tried.

Quote: "This industry is not built on trust. 99% of users can't be trusted to buy software if they absolutely don't have to. Because there is no trust, developers have no choice but to implement some kind of copy protection. Do you disagree with that?"

Nope, fully agreed. But if it doesn't work anyway, what's the point in protecting with such absurd measures anyway? Let me put it differently, to try and take the Egyptian example again:

In Egypt, 99% of the sold games (sold in even the most legitimate stores) are illegal copies exactly because of those measures. Companies that mass-distribute illegal copies and make money of the games exist because of the defences, which exist because of the pirates. Now, developers are excluding the full (North)-African market because of piracy. Is that what they call smart?

Quote: "Every kind of copy protection has some kind of irritant the honest consumer must deal with, albeit a dongle, securerom, internet activation, or dozens of other methods. That is a tradeoff and it can't be disputed. There's a great article on Slashdot on the history of copy protection, and it's widely agreed that it's a necessary evil of the industry."

Ah. A necessary evil. Well, to respond to your "How's that Valve's problem exactly?", I'd like to ask: "That the companies don't make money is my problem how exactly?"

Quote: "Traditionally consoles have a far less percentage of pirates, because each system is brand new. The PC has been virtually the same for decades-- the same type of OS, same type of processor, etc. PC gaming is on the decline because of pirates, not because of harsh copy protection Usually by the time a console is cracked and there are emulators out for it, that generation is over."

Uuh, that sounds odd. Consoles are exactly the same over a course of six years, while computers and their software update and change daily. Piracy would be much easier on consoles and taking into account the rising numbers of pirated games on consoles, I guess it'll be a while before our Wii needs a SECUWIFI biometric recognition enabled router (with firmware 2.11) to be able to play Wii Sports 2.

Quote: "[quote]"Tell the mother who bought the game as a present for her son without internet in, lets say, a rural area in Egypt, deal?""


Rofl. What's the difference between that and, say, an Internet requirement for an MMOG? You can't blame the developers for stupid mothers. That's insane. Next you'll be blaming the developers because a granny buys her grandkid a DS game that won't work on his PSP Or a kid who buys WOW but can't play it because there's no Internet in his area. Honestly, that complaint is moot, buddy.[/quote]
The MMOG is an online game, consisting out of only a multiplayer mode. To play a singleplayer game its absurd to need a internet connection, hybrids like Spore excluded. But sure, I'll tell my aunt you think she's stupid . I'll also tell her to return the game bought at the Virgin store and buy it somewhere else - which'll probably equal buying a cracked game so that it can be played by my cousin.


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Jeku
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 01:46 Edited at: 15th Jun 2008 01:49
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Quote: ""That the companies don't make money is my problem how exactly?""


Believe me, I highly doubt Valve is sweating over loss of sales from Egyptians stuck on dialup or no Internet access

Quote: "Uuh, that sounds odd. Consoles are exactly the same over a course of six years, while computers and their software update and change daily."


The X86 processor was invented in the 70s-- just a little older than your Wii/Gamecube. Not sure if you've noticed but *generally* it takes a few years before it becomes easy to copy console games. On the PC you can use the same tools found on the original version of MS-DOS to make a crack to jump over copy protection.

Proof in point is in all my years on the newsgroups I have yet to see pirate copies of PS3 games, while typically PC games are on there on the day of release or shortly thereafter.

Quote: "But sure, I'll tell my aunt you think she's stupid . I'll also tell her to return the game bought at the Virgin store and buy it somewhere else - which'll probably equal buying a cracked game so that it can be played by my cousin."


Be my guest, what does it matter to me? If Mass Effect has "INTERNET CONNECTION REQUIRED FOR GAMEPLAY" on the front cover (which it does), and somebody buys it who doesn't have the Internet, it's their own fault. Whether or not that makes the customer stupid is open to interpretation, but you said it not me.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 02:29 Edited at: 15th Jun 2008 02:32
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I suppose it's then fair to say the developer needs to think of their customers and keep them happy whilst keeping themselves happy - the problem with that is a clash of interests.

The Customer: Will want to play anywhere and anything and not worry about the internet.

The Developer: Is out to make a profit and try to prevent their game being copied and pirated - each attempt increases the time it take to crack the game, but of course they still get cracked.

But an internet connection hasn't solved the problem for the developer and they need to still be vigilant and innovotive.

They will also need their customer's convenience on their minds, especially as they're paying money on your product or are potential customers and they will demand a hassle free experience that pleases them and accommodates for them. Of course compromise is always made, the customers aren't 100% happy and I've not been pleased with the internet access thing, until upgraded it became problematic. But from the point of view of Steam games.

Of course not every family who can't afford or access the internet are in rural parts of Egypt, but a bit more closer to home than that - but they're a small percentage of the market, hence the industry may choose to ignore them. Some people will think things are affordable because they're small change to them.

The philosophy: "The customer is always right" doesn't mean, "If the customer says I'm from Mars then I'm from Mars" but "the customer should always be satisfied."

And this is where I think the developers need to work on their piracy stuff and not say the future in computer gaming will rely on the internet. Of course I can understand why they need the interet, but the fact I can go on the internet right now and download an illegal copy of half-life 2 shows that the internet isn' such a brilliant or an effective enough of an answer.
(Of course it'd be pointless as I can now access the internet on a gaming computer and play it, heck I've even already got it installed at long last, as for Orange Box, well it'll have to wait until I've purchased other games of interest)
There's nothing stopping me from downloading Mass Effect either except my values. But I suppose it's still a battle better happy smiley customers and developers making the most money and protecting their goods from pirates.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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Jeku
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 02:42
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Maybe some of you would understand better if you actually worked on a game for 2 years only to see it on every torrent, newsgroup, and warez site. Believe me it kills your morale. Sure, the honest customer should not be inconvenienced, but at the same time just sitting on your thumb and doing absolutely nothing to try to prevent first-week sales is not smart.

Quote: "but the fact I can go on the internet right now and download an illegal copy of half-life 2 shows that the internet isn' such a brilliant or an effective enough of an answer."


Valve never expected to be able to stop people from pirating their game 3.5 years later. When the game came out in 2004 the final retail version was not cracked on day 1, which would have made a huge difference in sales.


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tha_rami
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 03:52 Edited at: 15th Jun 2008 03:53
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Jeku, I've seen Starwraith 3D Games almost die when Evochron Alliance was cracked. Believe me, I know the hurt that can come from copying - Shawn was broken - he did fix it, by the way.

In any case, you did call my aunt stupid:
Quote: "You can't blame the developers for stupid mothers. "

But I can't really care about that. It was stupid to buy a legal game if the legal game is built in such a way that paying still leaves you unable to play at all.

Oh, the publishers aren't interested in Egypt as a market? Nor the rest of North-Africa? Oh, okay. Millions of pirated games sold for profit, but ah well - having copy protection that doesn't work is more important than those people. It's not the first world, eh. But that'd be discrimination.

Quote: "Be my guest, what does it matter to me? If Mass Effect has "INTERNET CONNECTION REQUIRED FOR GAMEPLAY" on the front cover (which it does), and somebody buys it who doesn't have the Internet, it's their own fault."

Which render millions unable to play quite some games at all, which, in my opinion, is unfair. They would be better off improving CD/DVD checks than this crap.

I mean: "Why should I care about first-week sales?"


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 03:55 Edited at: 15th Jun 2008 03:58
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Indeed, I've come to accept that the internet is a good safe-guard, but not the future of piracy-protection, because though it helps, it still doesn't stop the problem as much as it should and it inconveniences the customer.

I'm sure somebody will come up with a good idea.

Perhaps the game industry should stamp down harder on pirates and put more resources into tracking them? I mean if they put some technology into tracking them, they could regain cash through lawsuits, at the same time deter a percentage of other pirates. (Hence my burgalar analogy, you can try keeping the burgalars out as much as you want, but once they're in there isn't much you can't do about it, especially if they've run off with your TV without a trace (of course house burgalars are much easier to secure from and catch than pirates))

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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tha_rami
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 03:59
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That won't work, I'm afraid. Until ISP's start to give full cooperation, pirating is both feasible and almost unpunishable. In many countries, downloading is legal but uploading isn't. Torrenting sites go free because they only provide textual files that so happen to 'link to' objectionable content, which is not their responsibility to track. In most cases, those sites are even fully free to do so in their country of origin.


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draknir_
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 05:35
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What I've always wondered is how game .exes are cracked - thats where the initial problem lies, isn't it? There MUST be some way to safeguard copy protection code..
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tha_rami
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 05:37
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Yes, there must be, for example, encryption. Point is, to actually run the .exe the .exe must be decrypted and since everything is on or to their own computers, things can be intercepted by crackers.

Until game executables are no longer on the users computer, cracking will remain relatively easy, I guess.


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Jeku
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 06:05 Edited at: 15th Jun 2008 06:07
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Quote: "It was stupid to buy a legal game if the legal game is built in such a way that paying still leaves you unable to play at all."


Just listen to yourself. Read the system requirements and you'll be good. Is that such a difficult requirement? Maybe they need to write "READ THE REQUIREMENTS BEFORE BUYING THIS GAME" in large letters on the front cover. Or would you blame Bioware for making 2GHz a requirement for Mass Effect? Somebody's poor mother might buy it for her kid who has a Mac computer.

Quote: "having copy protection that doesn't work"


Please explain how it doesn't work? Other than the Bioshock server fiasco, I have yet to see anyone make a relevant point against a ONE-TIME Internet check that actually occurred in history. A culture of people who do not have Internet (millions, according to you) does not count as "unworkable copy protection". The copy protection still "works". I have a feeling you're arguing for the sake of it.

Quote: "which render millions unable to play quite some games at all, which, in my opinion, is unfair. "


Where does this "quite some games" come from? As far as I know there's a small handful of games that have one-time checks. And again, they won't buy the game as the front cover suggests they require the Internet. Isn't it unfair to require a high-speed computer to run Crysis when millions of people have only substandard PCs? Isn't that discriminatory toward the non-first world countries too? Puleeze.

Quote: "It's not the first world, eh."


Don't go down that road or you will be sorry.

Quote: "They would be better off improving CD/DVD checks than this crap."


In my opinion having to stick in a DVD for every game I play and every piece of software I run is more inconvenient than a ONE-TIME Internet validation. Mass Effect has a one-time validation. Hell, Windows XP has a one-time validation.

Quote: "I'm sure somebody will come up with a good idea."


No, this is an unsolvable problem. If you can play a game, a song, a movie, or read a book on your computer, you can copy it. Period.

Quote: "Until game executables are no longer on the users computer, cracking will remain relatively easy, I guess."


Can you suggest a way of playing a game without having an executable on the user's machine? Would that not require some sort of Internet connection?


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tha_rami
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 06:15 Edited at: 15th Jun 2008 06:15
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Jeku, you keep and keep on rationalizing everything from your point of view. If you'd be somewhere in any of those countries without access to the internet besides in netcafés, I'm pretty sure you'd think otherwise. Remember when you were in North Korea? I don't think everyone there has access to the internet, do they now?

Requirements should be requirements, not restrictions.

Quote: "Or would you blame Bioware for making 2GHz a requirement for Mass Effect? Somebody's poor mother might buy it for her kid who has a Mac computer."

That's a poor analogy and you know it. You're comparing a problem caused by developers with stupidity from the end-user.

Quote: "Isn't it unfair to require a high-speed computer to run Crysis when millions of people only substandard PCs?"

Same thing there.

Quote: "In my opinion having to stick in a DVD for every game I play and every piece of software I run is more inconvenient than a ONE-TIME Internet validation. Mass Effect has a one-time validation. Hell, Windows XP has a one-time validation."

Yes, Windows XP has a one-time validation and they also have phone activation. If you don't have a phone, you can write down the code, go to someone who has a phone, and write down the return code. Also note that XP is pirated as no other.

In the end, not having the game executable on the PC would be the best solution. Even better would be regional codes in computers, like in consoles, so that copy protection could be adjusted to a regions need, instead of focussing on the richest countries and ignoring the millions without internet. My family is relatively rich for Egyptian standards and only two persons in a 50+ person family have access to DSL-speed internet. Seven of them have dail-up and I just counted in my head, I think that 25 of them have an own computer.


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Libervurto
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 06:31
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I think they should remove all security and make piracy punishable by death!
problem solved.

has anyone tried to play a konami game online?
i got so pissed at the ridiculous security!

The problem is the game only has to be cracked once and you're screwed.
Ive never heard of people's hard drives being confiscated because of piracy, do they do that?

It is far better to complete a 10 line program than to start a 10,000 line program.
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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 07:07
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Quote: "Ive never heard of people's hard drives being confiscated because of piracy, do they do that?"


Yep. Those so called urban myths about the feds kicking the door in at 5 am, are not actually myths. However, a more likely trigger for such a reaction would be due to some fraudulent behavior (i.e phone freak) then purely piracy.


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Jeku
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 07:29 Edited at: 15th Jun 2008 07:30
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Quote: "If you don't have a phone, you can write down the code, go to someone who has a phone, and write down the return code."


Oh look at this, EA offers the same thing for Mass Effect. Ever care to actually read the fine print yourself before making assumptions?

Just leave it. You're getting into conversation that I'd rather not get into.


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Libervurto
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 07:52
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I don't think it's wise getting into an argument about what EA does with an EA employee lol

It is far better to complete a 10 line program than to start a 10,000 line program.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 12:15 Edited at: 15th Jun 2008 15:58
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Quote: "I don't think it's wise getting into an argument about what EA does with an EA employee lol"


Always worth a try.

Quote: "Quote: "I'm sure somebody will come up with a good idea."

No, this is an unsolvable problem. If you can play a game, a song, a movie, or read a book on your computer, you can copy it. Period."


When I say 'good' idea I don't mean one that'll permanently solve the problem, but one that keeps the developers and consumers happy.



But I can see where the tone of this conversation is going.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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tha_rami
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 14:31 Edited at: 15th Jun 2008 14:35
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Quote: "Oh look at this, EA offers the same thing for Mass Effect. Ever care to actually read the fine print yourself before making assumptions?"

I did, but I kinda refrain from focussing on one game only. It's not as if I'm bashing Mass Effect here, I'm trying to point out how ridiculous copy protection is in its current form. I'd rather have to put in the CD/DVD or have a one-time registration by internet or phone than this hype of per-start-activation that's currently happening.

Quote: "I don't think it's wise getting into an argument about what EA does with an EA employee lol"

I think an EA employee is the best person to go into an argument with about EA, by the way.

Quote: "Yep. Those so called urban myths about the feds kicking the door in at 5 am, are not actually myths. However, a more likely trigger for such a reaction would be due to some fraudulent behavior (i.e phone freak) then purely piracy."

That'd pretty much be illegal here, lol, they have to ring the doorbell and ask nicely, and if they refuse insist. If they continue refusing, they can use appropriate violence to arrest the people.

The tone of the conversation is ours, really. So, if we all just remain calm then everything will be al right.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 16:08
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Quote: "The tone of the conversation is ours, really. So, if we all just remain calm then everything will be al right."


True, but I'm beginning to think that discussion will start going around in circles - it's fairly obvious we all see it from different angles, Jeku is biased towards the developer because he works for a game company and we stand from the viewpoint of the customer...well because that's what we are.

I can understand why the game companies will want to have these types of security protection and it makes a difference based on their methods but it does mean some customer satisfaction is compromised. It's often emphasised that the customr should always be pleased and that's where developers should always aim, yet on the other hand they're still out to make money and have to protect themselves. This is why things like Steam aren't the future, however, Mass Effect, like Windows XP having phone activation I see being good and it's all 1 time only - just as long as the phone activation is efficient, then it solves one problem.

Of course the question begs do customers want to make a phone call to play a game? They still have the capability of playing a game, but isn't an ideal solution for the customer, but it stil works. (I pressume, I don't have Mass Effect yet) I'm sure through the eyes of the developer the consumer needs are a bloody pain in the a**e.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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David R
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 17:13 Edited at: 15th Jun 2008 17:18
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NVM - if you read the original post that was here, I'm sorry + ignore it, it was a moment of caffeine induced stupidity.


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