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Geek Culture / The generation of computer game and program selling making you millions - over?

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Xenocythe
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 18:07
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All I meant was that we should maybe find an affordable way of developing for consoles for hobbyist programmers...

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draknir_
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 19:07
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Quote: "Yes, there must be, for example, encryption. Point is, to actually run the .exe the .exe must be decrypted and since everything is on or to their own computers, things can be intercepted by crackers.

Until game executables are no longer on the users computer, cracking will remain relatively easy, I guess."


Well I was thinking along the lines of deterrents.. I'm going to make a comparison to cheating in an online shooter, if this is way off correct me .

In games like Counter Strike: Source (which I play alot, competitively) you have a lot of cheaters online who will use a 'hook' that latches onto the game .dll or .exe and add code to see through walls or aim better. Anti-Cheat systems are designed which scan the .dlls and .exes for intrusion and then take appropriate measures.

Wouldn't it be possible to do the same for games? Have the game run a onetime internet check at install (i know, i know, everybody hates it) which runs the 'Anti-Crack' software and checks the game files for illegal modifications. Found one? Ban the CD-Key, corrupt the game files and give the user a message asking them to call software support.

It sounds harsh, I know, I'm just brainstorming.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 19:27
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So I'll go ahead and decompile your source code. Then I'll remove the line that calls your 'anti-crack' software.

I now have a cracked game.


Hurray for teh logd!
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Erios
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 19:45 Edited at: 15th Jun 2008 19:55
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There is still one way to protect a game that have been making piraters throw their hands up: Server validation. Take Realm Crafter for example. A lot of money has been spent to create this MMORPG engine, and to protect their investment, it validates against a server every time it starts up. While this does cause some annoyance (you will have to re-validate every time you change anything on your PC, even RAM), they have basically a 0% occurance of piracy, which is pretty good for a $100 game-creation engine. It creates a "finger print" of every PC it is on, and verifies that it is still on the same PC that it thinks it is on, and that no new finger prints are showing up for a single registration.

I could be wrong, but I believe that everything needed to do this (test hardware, network coding) is all available in natively DBPro. Even if it's not, it would not be much of a stretch to make a plugin to do it.

EDIT: I did go back and read some people's issues with having to have an internet connection to play a game/use software that does not need the internet. Expect to see this more and more, regardless of what people think, because for the moment, it is the only 100% uncrackable method (just like how you never see anyone "cracking" a free World of Warcraft account on the official servers).

The amount of people who actively use their PC for things beyond word processing and Excel who do not have any kind of internet connection are shrinking rapidly. I have noticed a lot of the people getting angry about these types of setups are people who have internet, but are angry over the "what if I didn't.." idea. The fact is that the majority of gamers have internet; at least dial-up. It was enough of a statistic for the producers to gamble the launch of Half-Life 2 on.
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David R
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 20:24 Edited at: 15th Jun 2008 20:25
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Quote: "There is still one way to protect a game that have been making piraters throw their hands up: Server validation. "


Even that is flawed - a man in the middle attack could easily get around server side validation (this is one of the problems with VAC, for instance)


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Jeku
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 20:30 Edited at: 15th Jun 2008 20:32
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Quote: "This is why things like Steam aren't the future"


Actually most analysts and game journalists are predicting that Steam is the future. The only competition it has is Microsoft's Live service, which is a pay system on PC. Steam is free, and Valve's plan is to have every single PC game ever made available on its system.

Quote: "There is still one way to protect a game that have been making piraters throw their hands up: Server validation."


Exactly. This is the future. Believe it or not in the future everyone who wants to be connected, and has the necessary geographical and monetary means to do so, will be connected. People in starving countries in Asia, Africa, and elsewhere have bigger problems than not having a fast computer and an Internet connection.

Quote: "The amount of people who actively use their PC for things beyond word processing and Excel who do not have any kind of internet connection are shrinking rapidly."


Agreed. Odds are if you have a kickass machine that cost you $2k, you will have some kind of internet connection.

Quote: "It was enough of a statistic for the producers to gamble the launch of Half-Life 2 on."


Yah, and that was in 2004.

Finally, somebody else agrees with me on this

EDIT:

Quote: "Even that is flawed - a man in the middle attack could easily get around server side validation"


As was said, everything is flawed to some degree. You won't catch my granny on a bit torrent site downloading the new Office, either. The goal is to make it the most difficult for the most amount of people.

--------------

For all those against server validation, why not buy the game and just crack it? Then at least you're still supporting the developers if you don't agree with the publisher.


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IanM
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 20:54
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Quote: "The goal is to make it the most difficult for the most amount of people."

Including the loyal customers ... who outnumber the pirates many times over.

What other business makes the assumption that their customers are all potential pirates that need warnings and threats? Oh yeah, the music and film industries.

So what do they decide to do about it? Add DRM to games and music that the pirates will never see, or add unskippable trailers that the pirates will never see. All making it harder for the legitimate user to use their software or media.

I don't know what the answer to the problem is, but it's not taking draconian measures against your loyal customers. Once-only authentication I can live with - anything beyond that and it gets taken back for a refund.

Quote: "you will have some kind of internet connection"

True - at home. But the world is getting more mobile (I have a gaming laptop myself) which means that I don't necessarily have a connection when I'm out and about but with nothing to do right then.

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draknir_
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 21:32
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Quote: "So I'll go ahead and decompile your source code. Then I'll remove the line that calls your 'anti-crack' software.

I now have a cracked game."


I should of mentioned server-side validation in there somewhere, I meant too.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 21:36
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I don't see how that would be any more difficult to crack. Honestly, it's removed the same way as any other protection method.

Doing a Google search for "Realm Crafter Torrent" shows a bunch of downloads for that software too. I don't see how that makes it 0% pirated.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 22:10
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I think a way forward might be tracking, getting, suing and deterring pirates. Parts of the music industry place tracking software, so if they find an MP3 they can track it to the source, for example our student radio gets music from a supplier, the supplier slaps on something that confirms that it belongs to us, so if they ever find any of those Mp3 on the internet, they can sue us for it.

Quote: "which means that I don't necessarily have a connection when I'm out and about but with nothing to do right then."


Considering that people can be quite mobile, an internet connection isn't always handy (even for long periods of time- so the one-time thing may work there, Steam, well no. You pay for the product, you're going to want to be able to use it without restritions that needn't be there. Predictions that Steam is the future, well if it is, then I'd say it's not the best descision from the consumer side of things.

Also...what happens when/if they take their servers down? They're not going to last forever. I'm one who likes to play classics.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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Agent Dink
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 22:19
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Quote: "Also...what happens when/if they take their servers down? They're not going to last forever. I'm one who likes to play classics."


Very good point.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 22:59 Edited at: 15th Jun 2008 23:02
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Quote: "For all those against server validation, why not buy the game and just crack it? Then at least you're still supporting the developers if you don't agree with the publisher."

Actually, I do that nowadays. Although discussions like these make me doubt why the hell I'm doing that exactly - it doesn't seem théy care about me - why should I care about thém?

IanM is really voicing my thoughts there.

Quote: "People in starving countries in Asia, Africa, and elsewhere have bigger problems than not having a fast computer and an Internet connection."

Yeah, and people in the not-starving countries? You're making this too black and white. My family is rather rich for Egyptian understandings, and only a few percent of them actually have access to the internet.


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David R
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Posted: 15th Jun 2008 23:03
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Quote: "As was said, everything is flawed to some degree. You won't catch my granny on a bit torrent site downloading the new Office, either. The goal is to make it the most difficult for the most amount of people."


Here's an idea for publishers: Instead of spending time devising new methods to create anti-piracy mechanisms which will only ever 'half-work' against the pirates, maybe they should invest more time making their products worth purchasing in the first place?

You're right, the systems will stop the typical "armchair hacker", but most of the time, it's a lot of work and hassle to prevent the inevitable. If people are going to pirate it, they're going to do so anyway, regardless of what protection you put on it.


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Jeku
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Posted: 16th Jun 2008 00:17
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Quote: "IanM is really voicing my thoughts there."


Actually he said he can deal with one-time activation. With your posts you are against even that.


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tha_rami
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Posted: 16th Jun 2008 00:49
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Actually, I said that if they allow people with no access to the internet to register as well, I can live with one-time activation. My whole point is that most systems do not offer such a possibility. Windows XP and Mass Effect allow that, so that's good.

Read back on the Windows XP part of the argument.


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Beast E Gargoyle
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Posted: 17th Jun 2008 04:52 Edited at: 17th Jun 2008 04:56
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Quote: " but what worries me now is that the average joe has no integrity or morals anymore.
"


I totally agree with that. After a terrible bill passed in colorado for same gender marriage. That event has lowered my sincere repsect for gov officials. If we had more parents teach their kids when growing up the difference between right and wrong I think alot of families would be alot better off.

All the best,

Beastegargoyle

Streets of Rage the best 3d beat em up ever check out the wip on apollo forums!
The Last Great Swordsmen Wip here http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=124414&b=19
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bitJericho
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Posted: 17th Jun 2008 06:41
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What, are you saying same gender marriage is anti-moral? So a dude likes other dudes, he's creating a grave detriment to society? Against who exactly?

How exactly could you consider a couple dudes getting togeter because they love eachother as morrally depraved as outright stealing from hard working developers?

I hope I read that wrong.


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ionstream
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Posted: 17th Jun 2008 06:55
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Quote: "So I'll go ahead and decompile your source code. Then I'll remove the line that calls your 'anti-crack' software."


It's a good thing any esteemed developer won't make it as easy as changing a single line. You can look for obvious cmp and jne's all you want.

Quote: "théy care about me - why should I care about thém?"


Because you're buying their product, that's why.

Quote: "maybe they should invest more time making their products worth purchasing in the first place?"


If a company can't protect it's own property rights, regardless of whether or not you think they're worth buying, then the whole economy goes straight to hell.

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 17th Jun 2008 08:01 Edited at: 17th Jun 2008 14:58
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Quote: "I think a way forward might be tracking, getting, suing and deterring pirates."


People still happily share music, so it's not much of a deterrent.


Heroes Quest - 2008 PlayBasic Game Making Competition
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Morcilla
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Posted: 17th Jun 2008 12:34
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Quote: "Maybe some of you would understand better if you actually worked on a game for 2 years only to see it on every torrent, newsgroup, and warez site. Believe me it kills your morale. Sure, the honest customer should not be inconvenienced, but at the same time just sitting on your thumb and doing absolutely nothing to try to prevent first-week sales is not smart."


Count me in. Years working, and they crack my soft at the very next day after publishing at donwload.com
Big companies might afford piracy cost. I don't think we can. Pirates don't stop and think about how much damage they are causing to this kind of development. There is no mercy for small companies, tough fate. Millions? I'm afraid we are only making millions of pirated copies.
I wouldn't mind to give free copies to that people who can't afford it, I understand that one buck is not the same value all around the world. But if it is 'free' (pirated) for everyone, then they are really stealing the food from our mouths. So there are no robin-hoods, I declare total war on the hacker man
I'm going to update the software as soon as I can. Offer new features makes the cracked version obsolete, nevertheless I will always spend more resources building that than they do for having it cracked, so the scale is unbalanced. All they do is win and have fun, all we do is loss, work hard and fight. Part of this game, I guess.
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tha_rami
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Posted: 17th Jun 2008 12:41
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Quote: "[quote]Quote: "it doesn't seem théy care about me - why should I care about thém?""

Because you're buying their product, that's why.[/quote]
No, I'm not buying their product. They don't care about me, I don't care about them. Honestly, the only reason I buy stuff is because I care for the people working on the stuff. If buying stuff becomes an annoyance, why again should I buy stuff? To annoy myself for $60?


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tha_rami
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Posted: 17th Jun 2008 12:44 Edited at: 17th Jun 2008 12:54
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Morcilla, you could try and sell your software through ShareIt. They deliver a good key-activation API, I think. Should be worth your effort. I'm not certain Shawn uses it, but I ám sure his games are found nowhere in a cracked and usable state.


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ionstream
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Posted: 17th Jun 2008 20:22
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Quote: "No, I'm not buying their product. "


Okay, you're using their product. They give you entertainment, you should give them money for it. That's the contract. It's not a moral victory as to whether they deserve it or not, because that's not up for you to decide. You can never justify piracy.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 17th Jun 2008 23:28
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Yes, I can. If I cannot play the game if I buy it, and I can when I don't, I won't buy it, but play it. That, by the way, is the only excuse I'll ever use for piracy. Besides that, I simply buy what I find worth my money.


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David R
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 00:01
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Quote: "if a company can't protect it's own property rights, regardless of whether or not you think they're worth buying, then the whole economy goes straight to hell."


It's a lose-lose situation though - either there is no copy protection/activation, and everyone copies/cracks it etc. OR there is anal/draconian measures on copy protection and activation, which harms the respect of paying customers, who may end up not bothering next time around with the sequel/next game

So I suppose in that way, the current business model is totally flawed. There is no way to stop the current issue without the publishers harming themselves even more


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ionstream
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 00:03
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So you have the right to steal something just because it's more inconvenient to buy it? You can play it if you buy it, and you can't justify stealing. DRM is not stopping you at all if you go through all the legal routes.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 00:18
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Quote: "So you have the right to steal something just because it's more inconvenient to buy it? You can play it if you buy it, and you can't justify stealing. DRM is not stopping you at all if you go through all the legal routes."

If I cannot play a singleplayer game while I'm on vacation, I'm not paying for it. I'm not paying for a game I can't give to my family over there. Why would I? Luckily, it appears the games I like don't have such 'security measures', so as far as I'm concerned its not that horrible, but I can see why some people don't have faith in buying any longer.

It's not about morality, its about convenience. It's completely ridiculous that pirated games are more convenient than copied games. I want the best I can get if I pay for something.


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ionstream
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 04:34
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Quote: "I'm not paying for it."


Then you don't get to play it, because you're stealing.

Quote: "It's not about morality, its about convenience. "


It's about doing whats right and making sure that people don't lose their jobs because you think it's more convenient to hit the Pirate Bay and are entitled to steal.

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jason p sage
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 04:53
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Quote: "Regular software protection is cracked within hours of release for big name titles."


This is MicroSoft's fault BTW. You give me DOS, or any operating system that allows me to write self modifiying machine code - and I guarantee you I could (and have) make a copy protection that won't be cracked in a day, a week, a month from release.

Even Virus protection software only recognizes the "signature" - and not many people have the wherewithall to reversse engineer 100% assembly language code that uses enough tricks that normal programming logic doesn't apply... Todays virii - due to microsoft's os mem model - require they launch, then "create a modified version" of themselves to be run later - .. I'm talking about code that literally reprograms itself... in such a way - you can't just disassemble it - its not enough. You need to step it with two pcs - one with the code running - and the other with a highend debugging software that can access the meory of machine one with a hardwired switch that freezes the CPU - then PC#2 - can analyze the memory in PC#1 - that's how many hardcore operating system writers/developers do it. (Like me) Requires some soldering - to get it working - there is a HALT pin on the CPU designed for this purpose to "freeze it". You also need hardware that allows access to mem bus - in short - its a real task to pirate... Especially if you have more than one "layer" of protection.

I worked for a company for a time that made their business with copy protection - when the internet was still pre-vogue.. Like 2001. We were never hacked.. or they would of been out of business much sooner! LOL

Most games have one "chunk of code" that if you can set the right flag - and jump around it - the code just runs like its registered.


http://www.jasonpetersage.com/?PAGE=ironinfantry&SECTION=ironinfantry
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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 05:30
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Quote: "If I cannot play a singleplayer game while I'm on vacation, I'm not paying for it."


So it gives you a right to steal it--- okay, then

Just don't play the game then, ever think about that? It's okay to steal something just because you can't use it whenever and however you want, even for what it wasn't designed to do? Hmmm.

On a side note, can you name me one single-player game that you can't play offline? I'd be interested to know. Mass Effect is a one-time activation. Steam games can be played in offline mode.


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jason p sage
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 05:41
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Quote: "Steam games can be played in offline mode."
Where is that option? I bought orange box half life and I hate the online thingy


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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 05:52
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Quote: "Where is that option? I bought orange box half life and I hate the online thingy"


I have a ton of games on Steam and I thought I'd try it myself. You have to make sure the game you want to play is fully updated (obviously).

- Click File->Go Offline

Now you can restart Steam as many times as you want without being connected to the Internet, and play all your games. I shut off my Internet connection to make absolute sure (because I didn't believe them that it would work with all the games), and so far they all started.

Enjoy


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david w
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 05:55
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I can't agree with "tha_rami".

Pirate software is stealing. Period.

People work for a living. Some people make more than others. The point is, would you steal gas for your car cause you had none and you couldn't drive it. The dealer didnt sell you the car and say. "free gas for life". No you have to keep putting gas into your car. If the car breaks down and your warranty didnt cover that. Is it the dealers fault. So do you steal the part to get your car fixed. No its your fault. You should have read the fine print.

I think its bull that people like "tha_rami" think its ok to just take things cause its inconvenient.

If I spent months/years creating a product. And then got ripped off, I would be upset to say the least. I dont care if I made a new toilet paper dispenser. I didnt get anything for my idea/work.

Anyways, game making is just like any other industry. People get paid for a product that is purchased by other people. When the product gets stolen, regardless of the reasons used to "justify" the theft. Then someone else looses.

I guess the real point is that people need to have "consequences" to actually not want to do it. Hence "jails" to stop people from breaking the laws.

Anyways, "tha_rami" really needs to stop and think for a good long minute about what hes saying.

I am planning to make a game. It might not be any good, but the last thing I want to see is it up on a site being "stolen" from me. I dont care if I'm only selling it for a dollar. I made it and I think I should get something out of it, other than being ripped off.

Thank you.
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Xenocythe
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 07:23
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Your analogy's are odd, mate; gas isn't re-usable like a video game.

3.11 We do not tolerate posts made for the purpose of putting down another forum member, group of members, religion, our company, our staff or any of our moderators, past or present.
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Thraxas
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 12:00
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I don't know, I think he made a fair point... It's not the car manufacturers fault if you can't get petrol and so can't drive your car... Just like it's not a game developers fault if you don't have access to the internet in order to play their game...

People will always find a reason why in their eyes it's OK to pirate games/software... "It's ok to pirate Microsoft stuff as they have enough money already."

"I would buy it but how do they justify the huge price tag? I would buy it if it was cheaper."

"Well if they are going to treat me like a criminal by putting DRM on their software then I'm going to download a DRM free copy, that'll show them."

"It's OK to download a serial number for this $20 game from an independent developer, it's not like they actually lose any money because I didn't pay for it."

"Software isn't like real products anyway so I didn't really steal anything."

[center]
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jason p sage
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 14:17
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@Jeku - Thank You

Buying software gives you ownership. It also is a way of saying thank you for a good job. It also encourages more software for the genre you are supporting.

Don't be so cheap - Especially since - buying games and things versus pirating is supporting your fellow coders!


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 15:27 Edited at: 18th Jun 2008 15:28
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I bought a Bluetooth stick, a rather extortionate "high speed" model and in a month, the software declared it was "unlicensed" for no fathomable reason. Re-installation? Nothing. I contacted MSI, a month down the road I still can't use my BT headset. I contacted BlueSoleil, nothing. So I had to download a crack to fix a bug in their software. Sometimes it's justifiable.


I fail at life. No, really.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 15:30
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I can see why people might want to download a cracked version of a game when it requires internet activation - I don't think it's right to pirate, but if you want to play a game, yet the developer places a restriction on it that stops you from playing, finding a version that fixes that problem, well you'll be tempted to get it.

As for Offline Steam, this is the first I've heard of Steam being able to go offline.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 15:33
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I agree with david w.
How dare anyone justify pirating!

Favorite Quote: Dramatized code? Code Drama!

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Don Malone
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 15:49
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But you did buy a material item. It stopped working so you had to fix it when it was not serviced by it's manufacturer or reps. If you buy software and then have to crack it to use it, I see that totally different than just stealing it outright. The fact you got no help from anyone is discouraging though.

What you had to do is like buying a car and having to work on it to keep it running as opposed to stealing the car. I can understand the developers desire to protect their work. They put so many hours and so much money into the product that they deserve to be rewarded if it is a good product.
But what about me as a customer. If I buy a product that must periodically call home to keep working, but if the producer has gone out of business. Where does that leave me? I paid for the programs use, and I think still legally entitled to use the software. I could find a hack to repair the software. I did not steal it, because I already bought it.

The problem is that the hack exists only because someone wanted it for nothing. To steal it.

Making nothing for the forth straight year; or is it five years now?

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tha_rami
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 15:59
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Quote: "Just don't play the game then, ever think about that? It's okay to steal something just because you can't use it whenever and however you want, even for what it wasn't designed to do? Hmmm."

No, I never thought about that. I like to be up to date. It's absurd I'd be excluded from the market through absurd protection measures, like CD's/DVD's not working, no internet connection available or such little jokes. Because of them, I'm spending hundreds of euros to keep my computer and laptop up to date, and they add some little funny trick that makes my software semi-usable.

If they can't care about me, I can't care about them.


A mod has been erased by your signature because it was larger than 600x120
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tha_rami
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 16:02
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To reply to David, I agree it is theft, but I feel the current protection schemes developers are coming up with is equal to theft from the developers side as well. They're stealing my money for non or sub-performing games, be it through reading a disc to check whether it's still there or not allowing me to play without an internet connection.

I cannot justify theft, but I can justify that form of piracy for myself and only in the above case. A pirate who pirates for 'ah, it's free' or 'I wouldn't have bought it anyway so there's no loss involved' should have his head shoved up his ****.

Quote: "Just don't play the game then, ever think about that? It's okay to steal something just because you can't use it whenever and however you want, even for what it wasn't designed to do? Hmmm."

No, I never thought about that. I like to be up to date. It's absurd I'd be excluded from the market through absurd protection measures, like CD's/DVD's not working, no internet connection available or such little jokes. Because of them, I'm spending hundreds of euros to keep my computer and laptop up to date, and they add some little funny trick that makes my software semi-usable.

If they can't care about me, I can't care about them.


A mod has been erased by your signature because it was larger than 600x120
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ionstream
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 21:50
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Quote: "They're stealing my money for non or sub-performing games, be it through reading a disc to check whether it's still there or not allowing me to play without an internet connection."


They aren't stealing anything from you. You have your game, a license to play it, and they have your money. If you can't play it, take it back to the store and get a refund.
Quote: "I cannot justify theft, but I can justify that form of piracy for myself and only in the above case. "


This is ridiculous. Piracy in all forms is theft. Unless you're stealing "Hitler's Big Score" from Nazi Co, there is no morally correct piracy.

Quote: "If they can't care about me, I can't care about them."


Again, it's not about who cares about each other at all. I'm not going to rob the pencils from Staples because BIC doesn't care about me.

Quote: "I like to be up to date."


Oh then by all means steal as much software as you want. Surely IGN, Gamespot, Kotaku, or 1up can't help you out in that department.

I'm a Comp Sci major, and the last thing I want at the end of my 4 years is to be denied an entry level position at EA or some dev house because they're actually cutting back due to piracy losses.

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David R
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 21:57 Edited at: 18th Jun 2008 21:59
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Quote: "This is ridiculous. Piracy in all forms is theft. Unless you're stealing "Hitler's Big Score" from Nazi Co, there is no morally correct piracy."


So, you've never copied a game, a DVD, a program, cracked or unofficially patched any kind of program or even ripped a CD, right?

Because the same law(s) covers pretty much all of those things (Modification, transmission or duplication of copyrighted material). Take it you don't own an MP3 player either?


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 22:09
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Quote: "I can see why people might want to download a cracked version of a game when it requires internet activation"


So a one-time activation is enough to tip you over the edge and pirate a game. Ridiculous.

Quote: "As for Offline Steam, this is the first I've heard of Steam being able to go offline."


It's been there since day one

Quote: "I could find a hack to repair the software. I did not steal it, because I already bought it. "


That's different. As you've stated, you already bought the software, so cracking it if the publisher goes out of business just to enable your paid for software to run probably isn't even illegal

Quote: "and they add some little funny trick that makes my software semi-usable. "


Answer my question first: name a single-player game that requires online checks every time you start it up. What's this about "semi-usable"? So if it's not 100% convenient for you, then it's worth stealing? Interesting perspective.

It's a pain in the butt to drive to Best Buy, and since they're not open at midnight when I feel like playing the new Hanna Montana DS game, I think I'll pirate it and use it on my R4 for my DS. Hell, they have to cater to my needs even if it means forfeiting profit. </sarcasm>


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ionstream
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 22:13
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Quote: "So, you've never copied a game, a DVD, a program, cracked or unofficially patched any kind of program or even ripped a CD, right?"


Yeah I'm really not going to play the semantics game. I have never cost a company money that I didn't make right. Back when I was 12-14 I used to pirate a lot, but I grew out of it and bought most of the songs I pirated. I guess not everyone does.

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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 22:22
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I don't own any illegally obtained songs.

WOO!

Favorite Quote: Dramatized code? Code Drama!

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David R
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 22:47 Edited at: 18th Jun 2008 22:50
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Quote: "Yeah I'm really not going to play the semantics game"


This isn't semantics; the law is the law. You can't preach anti-piracy on one hand and practice piracy on the other. These things are covered by the same laws.

I take it you don't sync songs to your MP3 player either though, right? Because that's still legally dubious in case you didn't know. The "perfect never practising piracy and there is no morally correct piracy" type of person had better dispose of their player ASAP


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
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ionstream
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 23:13
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I let Ruckus's Portable License and DRM take care of the legality for me. Rest assured I've looked into this heavily. Oh, and last I checked, "legal dubious" doesn't mean illegal. There's nothing illegal about MP3 players.

Quote: "You can't preach anti-piracy on one hand and practice piracy on the other."


I can "preach" against theft all I want. I don't give a crap if I install a patch on my MP3 player that make the lights blink, because unless Sandisk is actually selling a product that does the same thing, I took nothing from them.

Quote: "The "perfect never practising piracy and there is no morally correct piracy" type of person"


Are you actually criticizing me for being anti piracy? I'm proud of the fact that I'm one of the few people that don't think they're such a badass for knowing how to use Bit Torrent, or for posting the 09F9 codes, or that they're part of some free-thinker revolution by stealing from that 'ol evil RIAA. I know the difference between right and wrong.

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David R
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 23:22 Edited at: 18th Jun 2008 23:29
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Quote: "because unless Sandisk is actually selling a product that does the same thing, I took nothing from them."


I think that's what someone would call morally correct breaking of the law, right? See where I'm going with this...?

Quote: "and last I checked, "legal dubious" doesn't mean illegal"


Last I checked, copyright law disallows copying, and transmission (digitally or mechanically) from one device to another. And that pretty much rules out MP3 players as legally OK. Oh, and add to that RIAA being able to "kick out" the concept of free use (e.g. RIAA v. Thomas)

Quote: "Are you actually criticizing me for being anti piracy?"


No, I'm criticizing you for saying that "Piracy can never be morally right", and then presenting a case where you do it yourself. As in, the exact definition of double standards (You whining about not receiving cash after you've graduated vs. You deciding that certain illegal activities are OK. The exact paradoxical problem that faces the games industry and every other industry - fair use versus the law)

Quote: "or for posting the 09F9 codes,"

Wow, you got me, I'm posting a number. That makes me so "badass", I'm certain. Man, numbers these days. Seriously, sue me. I'm sure I'll lose


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
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