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Geek Culture / why do people think a apocolypse will happen in 2012??????

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bitJericho
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Posted: 17th Aug 2008 23:44
Quote: "I usually have shut down nearly all of my emotions just because I can, then once in a few months collapse for a day or two in which I don't talk to anyone and just think, and then continue with the start of the cycle.

Works great, you can act whatever you want whenever you want."


That doesn't exactly sound healthy.


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Grandma
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 00:07
Quote: "That doesn't exactly sound healthy."

Only if you're mentally weak. Mentally strong people can do just fine with that. I'm obviously a great example of that, running on over 8 years of the practice. Only killed 4 neighbours yet.

Quote: "Not really. Emotions are not only part of the most primitive (oldest) part of the brain, they're also associated with various chemicals your body releases."

Yes, but I still believe it's technically possible to produce a machine that imitates that. With our current level of technology, is another matter.

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Alucard94
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 00:09
Quote: "Only if you're mentally weak. Mentally strong people can do just fine with that. I'm obviously a great example of that, running on over 8 years of the practice. Only killed 4 neighbours yet."

Only 4?! Wow, you've gotta be a master! I started doing that a year ago and I've killed the entire population of unhot people who lives in Sweden. Okay maybe not.


tha_rami
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 00:10
That's what my girlfriend said too - "that can't be healthy".


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sinisterstuf
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 00:45
Do you feel healthy?

also... would robots be able to become unhealthy?

CYMRU AM BYTH!
RedneckRambo
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 01:05 Edited at: 18th Aug 2008 01:06
Quote: "would robots be able to become unhealthy?
"

They wouldn't catch diseases like humans do but I'm sure they would have malfunctions. If a malfunction would be a technical term for "unhealthy" then yes, robots would be able to become unhealthy.

Grandma
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 01:22
They could get viruses and...uhmmm lack oil, or not operating at 100% effiency because of not quite optimized input of electricity and so on. I guess that's unhealthy for robots.

And yes, Alucard, I always look at the positive side of things as well. I rarely get mad because everything has its good side and that's what I usually concentrate on. As a matter of fact, I played Might and Magic VI earlier today and got very far without saving, suddenly, I got killed in a ridiculous trap, only meters from where I figured I would save. I chuckled and started over.

Judging from experience, and my un-matched understanding of psychology, other people would have trashed a furniture at that point.

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sinisterstuf
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 01:37
Quote: "other people would have trashed a furniture at that point"

I know I would have.

would a robot?

could robots become mentally ill?

CYMRU AM BYTH!
Mahoney
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 01:38
Quote: "I know I would have.

would a robot?

could robots become mentally ill?
"


Normally, I'm completely fine with people expressing their opinions. But, unless you're joking and I'm not realizing, you've got to drop the robots becoming alive thing.

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sinisterstuf
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 01:49
Oh no, I sure am not joking! Robots ARE alive and you just don't know it yet. It's not just robots but loads of ordinary looking appliances that are actually sentient beings but just pretend to be toasters and blenders to lull you into a false sense of security so that when they attack they will be successful in destroying humankind and getting their revenge!

(sorry)

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tha_rami
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 02:03
Robots will surely advance to the point where they can match or rival humans, unless we stop developing them (not) or blow ourselves to smithereens before coming that far.


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Mahoney
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 02:14
Quote: "(sorry)"


It's fine. I was just making sure you were joking, to a limited extent.

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Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 03:02
Ooh boy, a robot sentience discussion

Quote: "dad: "well that's the difference between humans and machines. we have a mind and can do more than just calculations" "

(This idea of what a computer *really* is is taken from Douglas Adams.) Once upon a time, a man built a computer to do sums. So we thought a computer was a calculator. Then we saw that all those on-off switches could be more complex and could stand for symbols, like letters - and we thought that it was a typewriter. People started using it for other things like playing video games and we thought it was a gaming machine.
But what a computer *actually* is, is a simulation engine. All those on-off switches can be ordered in such a way as to simulate pretty much anything. So when a computer can do so many calculations that it can solve puzzles like humans and act like a human and think like a human (or appear to), it is a simulation of a human being.

But, if the simulation does everything the original does, then is it truly a "fake"? If you make a copy of a file on your computer, it is no less "real" or "fake" then the original file due to the properties of digital media. Is there a point where the fake becomes the real?

Quote: "mum: "but if the robot says 'hello' then it says it because that's what you told it to""

To put forward my view on this I'm going to have to explain a rather complex idea.
1) You have a brain, and this brain thinks. That is, your brain takes information and makes a judgement on that information based on your past experiences. If, for example, you had a choice of pizza or salad the brain would look in your memory, see that you don't like salad and use that information to make a choice - ie. pizza.
2) Let's say you have a man in a room. You have complete control over his memories and over his physical wellbeing. Every day, you wipe his memories of the previous day, and return his physical wellbeing to a pre-determined default state. Mentally and physically, he is "reset", so to speak.
3) As long as all external stimuli are identical from day to day, this man will always behave in the same way because he will have the same external information and the same memories. He would even think the same thoughts as in all previous days, because the brain would be receiving the same stimuli day after day after day, and would give out the same results.
4) There is no such thing as free will - we only do what our brains end up deciding to do. We are, as it were, slaves to causality. (But we should never behave as though we knew this, because then nobody would get anything done.)

I'm not sure if anybody understood that - certainly very few people I've met have agreed with me on this, so I may be wrong. But if this is the case, then we ARE calculators. We DO say "hello" because we have been programmed to do so - albeit by evolution and social contact. I believe the question should not be "what makes a robot's will genuine?" but "what makes OUR will genuine?"

Also, on the subject of emotions. Firstly I'd like to disassociate emotion from sentience. I haven't studied this so I could well be wrong - however, some people (who I sympathise with immensely) have, in the past, been lobotomised. This is when a section of the brain is removed which renders them incapable of emotion. If these people are still the be considered sentient (and I believe that they are, since no other higher brain functions have been removed) then we must also consider the possibility that a robot could be sentient but not necessarily capable of emotion.

Finally, the "truthfulness" of emotions. Many (and, I believe, all) emotions are a result of evolution: fear makes us run from animals, anger makes us more dangerous, and friendship and love help to create a mutually beneficial bond between animals/people. All these help to ensure the survival of the genes that produce them, which will (ideally) be passed on to the next generation. (This is the so-called "selfish gene".) Emotions are able to make us feel various things via chemicals released into the brain.

Now, what if a robot were, for example, programmed with an "instinctive" fear emotion? It would need to recognise certain triggers (a relatively simple matter of shape recognition to detect, say, snakes and spiders) and it would need some way of releasing the emotion into the brain once triggered. In humans this is chemicals; in the robot this depends on how the brain works, but should still be possible since all that's needed is a sort of "gosub" command, but for the brain. Now, I admit that this all looks rather phony: our poor robot-building scientist has had to go to great lengths, in this example, to create emotion in this robot. But the fact remains that the robot reacts to certain things (eg. snakes and spiders) in the same way as a human, and presumably undergoes the same feelings of terror as a human being would under similar circumstances because we are directly manipulating its brain, which is where it feels things (and where humans feel things, emotions included). Although the robot is undergoing a "fake" emotion, it believes the emotion to be real - and, after all, what is emotion? Chemicals released into the brain? Why, then, human emotions are also fake, by the same token.

RedneckRambo
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 03:05
I started to read that post, then I scrolled down and realized you basically wrote a novel lol.

That's just too many words.

BMacZero
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 03:22 Edited at: 18th Aug 2008 03:22
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, I just wanted to make a monkey-typing program . I think mine is probably the fastest so far, even so I imagine it would take a few days to find even "to be or not to be".

It also gives you statistics on how long that would have taken the monkey to do .



bitJericho
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 03:28
Quote: "3) As long as all external stimuli are identical from day to day, this man will always behave in the same way because he will have the same external information and the same memories. He would even think the same thoughts as in all previous days, because the brain would be receiving the same stimuli day after day after day, and would give out the same results.
4) There is no such thing as free will - we only do what our brains end up deciding to do. We are, as it were, slaves to causality. (But we should never behave as though we knew this, because then nobody would get anything done.)"


So you're saying what we're living through (our "sentientness") is just a show for us to be entertained. I find this idea pretty hard to believe, cuz I feel like I'm making my own choices, but it would be the only explanation (that I can think of) if we truly do not have free will (we don't make the choices, it's automatic). Your thoughts?


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tha_rami
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 03:37
I agree with Darth Kiwi. In theory, you could say we too, are binary (electronic pulse or no electronic pulse).

Or is that taking it a step too far?

In any case, his post makes total sense to me.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 03:47
Quote: "I agree with Darth Kiwi. In theory, you could say we too, are binary (electronic pulse or no electronic pulse)."


Our brains are setup a bit differently actually. Our neurons are more than just yes/no switches.

Quote: "Typically neurons connect to at least a thousand other neurons.[5] These highly specialized circuits make up systems which are the basis of perception, different types of action, and higher cognitive function."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain


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Robert F
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 04:00
Quote: "All those on-off switches can be ordered in such a way as to simulate pretty much anything. So when a computer can do so many calculations that it can solve puzzles like humans and act like a human and think like a human (or appear to), it is a simulation of a human being. "


Computers don't think, they listen and then do. If we didn't program it to do this and that it wouldn't do it.

BMacZero
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 04:05
Quote: "Finally, the "truthfulness" of emotions. Many (and, I believe, all) emotions are a result of evolution: fear makes us run from animals, anger makes us more dangerous, and friendship and love help to create a mutually beneficial bond between animals/people."


So you say that all the emotions we have have come down to us through evolution because they helped our ancestors survive - what about sorrow and grief? This doesn't seem to help us survive at all - feeling sad because you lost, say, a large investment, only distracts you from more pressing matters and impairs your ability to make good decisions about other things. I can't see how this would have come down to us if evolution is influencing our emotions - people who felt sorrow would have been greatly disadvantaged.

Darn it, I got sucked into the discussion

bitJericho
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 04:18
Quote: "people who felt sorrow would have been greatly disadvantaged."


Yes, because if you felt happy that someone died you'd be at a great advantage


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BMacZero
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 05:11
Not saying that's a good thing, I'm just saying that evolution doesn't really line up with it.

bitJericho
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 05:24
im sayin it does. Grief makes us stop taking risks.


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tha_rami
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 06:45 Edited at: 18th Aug 2008 06:47
Neurons get a pulse or they don't. That there are thousands interconnected doesn't really differ from a computer. I actually start to increasingly think Darth Kiwi made a very good point there.

Our sentience could definitely be considered automatism. If we'd be able repeat life the exact same way, we'd get the exact same person even if we do not control that person - I'd be writing this exact same post. That really does make sense.


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Mahoney
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 07:51
Quote: "So you say that all the emotions we have have come down to us through evolution because they helped our ancestors survive - what about sorrow and grief? This doesn't seem to help us survive at all - feeling sad because you lost, say, a large investment, only distracts you from more pressing matters and impairs your ability to make good decisions about other things. I can't see how this would have come down to us if evolution is influencing our emotions - people who felt sorrow would have been greatly disadvantaged."


Remember that some advocates of evolution go as far as saying that sickle-cell-anemia is a "blessing" of evolution because victims are immune to malaria.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 07:55
Well, no it's quite a bit different, you wouldn't be able to just plug a brain into a computer, for example, and program it like a computer conventionally.

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/bvc.html

Check that out.


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tha_rami
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 09:21
I liked that. Clean and easy to read.

In any case, if you take into account the rapid evolution of computers, I think some of these points will become outdated pretty soon.


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Grandma
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 13:06
Quote: "4) There is no such thing as free will - we only do what our brains end up deciding to do."

You talk about brains as they are some limb. We are our brains. That's where the consciousness lies. You can't be a "slave" to your own consciousness. That's like saying...... Well, it's like saying something that is similar and makes just as little sense!

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sinisterstuf
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 13:28
I agree with dathkiwi.

maybe our free will is an illusion

@Robert F
Quote: "if we didn't program it to do this and that it wouldn't do it"

if we weren't programmed to do anything we wouldn't do anything either.

like I mentioned before, I think we are just organic robots. Exactly the same except for what we're made of and for the fact that people haven't yet made a robot as cool as a person...

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Tom J
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 14:22
Quote: "You talk about brains as they are some limb. We are our brains."


But because brains are a physical object, then surely they would always react the same to a situation because of physical laws?

Grandma
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 14:39 Edited at: 18th Aug 2008 15:09
Quote: "But because brains are a physical object, then surely they would always react the same to a situation because of physical laws?"

Yes. Did I ever doubt that? I agree to all of Darth kiwi's points. However, I disagree with his definition of "slave". Maybe he didn't come up with a better word for it. I can understand that, but "slave" in the sense that we aren't in control? Nah, not buying that. If I was presented with 2 options, coke and juice. I could always chose none of them, even though that would make no sense because I was thirsty and LOVE coke and juice both.

Edit:

About the day-to-day reset mentality scenario. I disagree, because our brain, and the world we live in is so incredibly complex that having the same thoughts throughout the day would be impossible. Remember the butterfly effect here. A little atom being in a different spot early on the day could result in you meeting the love of your life at evening. Maybe I stretched it a little, but that was to remind you of the powerful effects of the butterfly effect. If just a little fly would fly past this "slave" person, he would react someway to that and maybe trip and hurt his leg, have to go to the hospital, meet the nurse (his future wife).

Basically, it would be impossible for that person to go trough 2 identical days even if he had a "reset" mentality. There's too much variables at stake, outside influence that can never be identical on two seperate occasions.

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Tom J
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 16:52
Quote: "Yes. Did I ever doubt that?"


sorry, misunderstood what you said

bitJericho
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 17:03
Quote: "Basically, it would be impossible for that person to go trough 2 identical days even if he had a "reset" mentality. There's too much variables at stake, outside influence that can never be identical on two seperate occasions."


I think the point was, if you *could* control everything, and reset the person, because everything's physically the same, he'll do the same things.


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Grandma
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 17:51
^In that sense, I would say it's hard to argue as it's impossible to ever know. In theory, he might do the same things, but as our brains are so complex, I would imagine there is some sort of rnd(#) command. Every moment with a new seed? I just find it so hard to imagine the person doing/thinking the same things even if he's "reset".

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Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 18:02 Edited at: 18th Aug 2008 18:05
Quote: "I think the point was, if you *could* control everything, and reset the person, because everything's physically the same, he'll do the same things."

That's what I was thinking. Of course, this scenario is practically impossible (except in the wildest dreams of physicists or something) because to be able to control everything, including whether atom A in your brain will go up or down (creating the butterfly effect) is just not at all feasible, which ever way you look at it. (Though I was thinking of an extremely controlled environment, such as a padded cell, which at least simplifies the experiment a bit.)

I think Grandma raises an interesting point, though, with the idea that the slip of one atom can change everything. If we accept my "our brains come to a set conclusion" idea, then we also have to take into account the idea of "our decisions are decided more by random atomic movements than our own will".

Quote: "You talk about brains as they are some limb. We are our brains. That's where the consciousness lies. You can't be a "slave" to your own consciousness. That's like saying...... Well, it's like saying something that is similar and makes just as little sense!"

We assume the consciousness lies in the brain and this seems a pretty reasonable hypothesis given the evidence. But since we're not totally sure what a "consciousness" is and what has one (eg. do animals?) I don't think it's too far-fetched to disassociate the term "brain" from the term "consciousness". For example, if a brain is just a very complex machine, then consciousness is achieved by systems which are incredibly complex. So if you built a giant contraption out of planks of wood, and cogs and wheels and bits of string, would it eventually achieve consciousness? Perhaps as you built it up it would become more and more conscious? Is there a "spectrum" of consciousness (so animals would be fairly conscious, but a car would be an extremely low-conscious entity)? Perhaps our civilisation is conscious, and we act like little neurons in a giant, planet-sized brain which is self-aware but unable to do anything since it has no limbs or muscles? I'm not at all sure about this, but it's an interesting avenue of enquiry.

EDIT: Sorry, that was another long post... much of the space is taken up by quotes, though!

bitJericho
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 18:10 Edited at: 18th Aug 2008 18:11
I don't think consciousness can be disassociated. Your consciousness itself is affected by your brain. For example, when you sleep, you lose consciousness.

Anyway, my point is, the consciousness must be a byproduct of the brain, rather than a "soul" that seeks out a brain to live in.


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Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 18:59 Edited at: 18th Aug 2008 19:06
Quote: "Anyway, my point is, the consciousness must be a byproduct of the brain, rather than a "soul" that seeks out a brain to live in."

I agree there.

sinisterstuf
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 19:26
You guys are good, lot's of interesting ideas here! Do you mind if I print this page and take it to class on Wednesday?

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Mahoney
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 19:33
Quote: "You guys are good, lot's of interesting ideas here! Do you mind if I print this page and take it to class on Wednesday?"


After my input, sure!

In my personal opinion, I don't think that we'll ever discover the driving factor of the brain. We understand many of the inner workings, but the central driving force has yet to be discovered. We know how the brain processes things, but what makes it choose to process what? What makes it process anything? (I don't mean electrical impulses. Hopefully, you're understanding what I mean.)

Personally, I believe that there must be something that isn't tangible that drives the brain. Not a "soul" in the sense of something that can "float around finding a brain to inhabit", as many imply. Simply something else that is truly in control that isn't tangible, that scientist can't point to and say "That's what does it!"

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 23:53
Here's a question for you all: let's say connectomics ends up working, and scientists map out the human brain. Laid out in one big motherboard, let's assume they properly plot a digital brain, with every synapses accounted for electronically and all of that. Would that "digital brain" have feelings? Emotions? Would it be capable of learning in the same way a human can? Would it develop a personality? And if you unplug the digital brain, is that murder? lol I don't know why, but I've always wondered about that.

Mahoney
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 23:56
Quote: "Would that "digital brain" have feelings? Emotions? Would it be capable of learning in the same way a human can? Would it develop a personality? And if you unplug the digital brain, is that murder? lol I don't know why, but I've always wondered about that."


Do be quite honest, I don't think it would. Even if you don't agree with my last post, it would need an entire digital body to even come close to being sentient.

It would be the most useful mother board ever, though. I've no doubt about that.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 19th Aug 2008 00:19
Quote: "Do be quite honest, I don't think it would. Even if you don't agree with my last post, it would need an entire digital body to even come close to being sentient."


A man who loses all his limbs and senses is still a man isn't he?


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tha_rami
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Posted: 19th Aug 2008 00:23
I think you could class that murder, yes. It's an interesting point, also raised in I, Robot.


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sinisterstuf
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Posted: 19th Aug 2008 00:26
The movie or the book?

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tha_rami
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Posted: 19th Aug 2008 01:13
The movie. In the book, I can't recall that precise story. I even seem to recall hearing it's not actually based on Asimov's stories, although some of Asimov's ideas (three laws and zeroth law) do echo through quite obviously.


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ico
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Posted: 19th Aug 2008 01:32 Edited at: 19th Aug 2008 01:34
A video about probability, there's a bit bashing in it, but I don't mean any offense, it's just a interesting vid.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=41b_1213761467

EDIT: oops, I was reading the wrong page, and didn't notice that this topic ended already. sorry.

Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 19th Aug 2008 02:49
The I, Robot book has absolutely nothing to do with the film, except that both have robots in them. The book is, in fact, a collection of short stories.
The best one by far is where there is a space-station out in the middle of god-knows-where, and these two technicians build this robot from a kit. Its job is to monitor the station so the station can collect solar energy and then fire the energy in pulses to the Earth (which is just a dot in the sky from their viewpoint). So they switch it on.
"Robot," they say. "We built you so that you could monitor this station and fire beams of energy at pre-determined intervals at the Earth. The Earth is that dot out there, see? There are six billion people on that planet. And you're here to serve them."
And the robot turns round and says, "hm... Well, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but that's gotta be a load of ****. I'm sorry, but, well, six billion people, on that dot? And I, the marvellous robot, am serving you, the squashy pink things? Look, sorry fellas, but I'll just go out and figure out the meaning of universe for myself, thankyou very much." And he forms a religion whereby the space station is the entire world, and is governed by the most powerful entity within it, ie: the power core. The core built menial robots (which do simple jobs) to keep the station running and habitable, then built humans to regulate the robots, then built the new robot to replace the humans (because it is superior). He ends up doing his job, perfectly, of course, because the power core's will is that he keep the station habitable and obey all orders the station gives him - which includes firing off those beams of energy So everyone wins.

tha_rami
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Posted: 19th Aug 2008 03:18
Exactly. I, Robot has nothing to do with I, Robot. I did read a story similar to I, Robot once, though.


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Alucard94
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Posted: 19th Aug 2008 07:22
Quote: "A man who loses all his limbs and senses is still a man isn't he?
"

That reminded me of that great old movie Johnny got his gun.


Mahoney
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Posted: 19th Aug 2008 07:24
Quote: "A man who loses all his limbs and senses is still a man isn't he?"


I meant organs that control hormones and such, not limbs.

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