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Geek Culture / An Interesting View on Piracy

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Jeku
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Posted: 8th Jan 2009 04:27
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Quote: "Why? Surely someone can just switch off the domain name or something at least. I don't get what the big problem is, websites are shut down by various authorities all the time."


I think it's a matter of the servers being hosted in another country (Sweden, I think), where the laws differ. Yes, the US control the .COM TLD, but there's bureaucratic nonsense stopping them from disabling it. Pirate Bay's offices have been raided many times.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 8th Jan 2009 08:19
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Quote: "To a developer, buying their game used or pirating it is exactly the same thing. It's just as hurtful toward a developer if you buy their game second-hand than if you were to pirate it."


It's not quite the same thing, because the original copy was purchased. It's as hurtful as buying second hand books or going to the library.

It doesn't help the author of the book, per se, but it gets their name out there.

Funnily enough, Amazon gets the same kind of slack from Authors because Amazon sells second-hand copies of books right alongside brand new copies. As a customer, it's a no-brainer if you want a second hand copy for 4 bucks or a new copy for 15+. (Unless you're getting it as a gift or something, of course).

It's good for Amazon, and customers. But not authors. Anyway, there's nothing illegal about it. On the other hand, selling your copy of WoW is against the EULA, and quite frankly, limiting your rights as a consumer for no benefit of your own.

And in the case of Lord of the Rings Online, the company has the audacity to say it's not a nice gesture to give your used copy of their game to a friend. It's none of their business what my gesture means when I give a used item to a friend.

I give lots of used books out, but giving a used game out is somehow a bad gesture.

Here's news for you. If games were created in an era devoid of corporate greed, we'd have game libraries that you could check out games at and DRM would be something laughable.

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draknir_
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Posted: 8th Jan 2009 09:11
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Corporate greed? Companies are only as greedy as the people that make them up. People are greedy. People in companies are greedy, and people refusing to pay for their games are greedy.

I do agree that second hand purchases should be possible though.

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Robert F
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Posted: 8th Jan 2009 09:44
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I always thought they didnt close down because they don't upload illegal stuff. The visitors do.

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BatVink
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Posted: 8th Jan 2009 09:47
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Quote: "Yes, the US control the .COM TLD, but there's bureaucratic nonsense stopping them from disabling it."


It's because the US don't own this TLD, they simply administrate it - it's a globally available TLD. The official TLD for the US is.... .us

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Raven
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Posted: 8th Jan 2009 11:20
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Quote: "Software technology can ALWAYS be cracked. Even if the game EXE needs a certain dongle, Or hardware serial number etc, Hackers can after a few weeks, simply take out that part of the program. People tend to think that just because something is hardware bound, That it cant be cracked."


Yes, but that is still Software-based Protection.
Hardware-based Protection is quite different, as there is nothing in the software itself that prevents something being used.

There is no "If Protected = 0 Then Quit" type of thing, it is something determined by the hardware. This has worked extremely successfully on the Xbox, Xbox 360, Playstation-Series that uses standard technology. As the only work-arounds currently available are by altering the hardware.

When I'm talking TCPA I'm not even talking pure Hardware-based protection either... Trusted-Computing-Platforms are basically a marraige of Hardware and Software protection.

I don't agree with SecuROM's way of doing things of just making more and more complicated protection, what they should be focusing on is trying to simplify the protection system again back to basics but instead have aspects that are there literally to detect if someone has tampered with it.

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Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 8th Jan 2009 11:36
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Quote: "They're, for the first time, attempting to make people think twice about buying a used game. Can't really blame them for that."


I'm with the "games are like books" argument. I see nothing wrong with giving your one, single copy to a friend or selling your one, single copy to someone else. You are then unable to play it because the disk is gone. (That's the theory, anyway.) The devs have theoretically lost one sale but I think it's an acceptable price for the freedom to sell something you own.

Everything gets a little more fuzzy when you sell your one, single game but retain all the game files and a no-cd crack. Or, if it's a game that doesn't require the CD, just selling hundreds and hundreds of digital copies over the internet. Then the devs have lost goodness only knows how many sales.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 8th Jan 2009 11:46
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Point remains that for many games, you buy a license and accept an agreement to not sell the data.

Personally, I'll always buy the 'new and unused'. Rather not takes gambles with either book or games.


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Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 8th Jan 2009 12:31
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But the companies won't be around for ever. Or, rather, the servers won't be there forever. Games like Vampire, the Masquerade: Bloodlines were made by companies that have since folded. If VTM:B had some sort of Spore-like copy protection, anyone playing it would have great difficulty getting it working. (Well - *even more* difficulty, let's just say, given the bugs ) And what about Spore? Big companies have little interest in keeping old games alive once they're past the "fresh" stage - big companies don't support those old games they made back in the 90s. Their websites are devoted mostly to newer games: tech support has fallen pretty much to fansites. So in twenty years time, assuming EA still exist, will they still have Spore servers? If it's not making them money then why would they?

Sorry to be so abrupt, but since I'm of the "games can be art" opinion, I don't like the idea that I will one day be locked out of my favourite games. I'd hate to go back to System Shock 2 and find out that I couldn't play it any more, when I can easily go back to Shakespeare with no outside interference whatsoever.

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General Reed
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Posted: 8th Jan 2009 15:21 Edited at: 8th Jan 2009 15:22
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Quote: "Yes, but that is still Software-based Protection.
Hardware-based Protection is quite different, as there is nothing in the software itself that prevents something being used.

There is no "If Protected = 0 Then Quit" type of thing, it is something determined by the hardware. This has worked extremely successfully on the Xbox, Xbox 360, Playstation-Series that uses standard technology. As the only work-arounds currently available are by altering the hardware.

When I'm talking TCPA I'm not even talking pure Hardware-based protection either... Trusted-Computing-Platforms are basically a marraige of Hardware and Software protection. "

Indeed, But what do you mean by hardware protection? Putting the EXE on a cartradge? Puting infomation needed by the game on hardware? If so then that infomation can just as easily be copied (With the correct hardware), And then simply fed into the exe by ways of a diffrent source.

Im not quite sure what you mean by hardware protection or if, no offence, you know what you mean. Putting the software code on the hardware, Can be still cracked. After all games are software, Not hardware. The game will always have to be run from a software EXE, And get the data from external sources, But its still software. Even the "ROM" on every computer is actualy software, As are the instructions on a cpu and gpu. Please explain.

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IanM
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Posted: 8th Jan 2009 15:44
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Quote: "To a developer, buying their game used or pirating it is exactly the same thing"

I afraid that have to disagree there.

When I sell by car, I don't expect to pay Honda anything.
When I sell my old laptop, I don't expect to pay Dell or HP anything.
When I sell my old mobile phone, I don't expect to pay Sony anything.
When I sell an old book, I don't expect to pay Penguin books anything.
When I sell an old DVD, I don't expect to pay Universal or Warner anything.
Now all of a sudden, when I sell an old game, the developers feel they are losing out?

Let me pose something else ... maybe people buy some expensive games because they know that they have a second-hand or trade-in value. If you forbid second-hand selling, and so remove that value, maybe people won't buy the expensive game in the first place.

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Robin
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Posted: 8th Jan 2009 16:03 Edited at: 8th Jan 2009 16:04
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I think the only difference with your analogies and games, is that asides from possible damage to the packaging, the game, once installed, will be exactly the same as a new one which would mean people would be more likely to get a second-hand one (unlike a car, where the engine might be worn out, or wear and tear on the other items which will make a difference to the user experience). But I totally agree with you - If you buy a game, of course you should be allowed to sell it second hand...

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Jeku
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Posted: 8th Jan 2009 21:29
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Quote: "But the companies won't be around for ever. Or, rather, the servers won't be there forever."


Well Take 2 eventually patched the DRM out of Bioshock, which EA does with their games too. They don't leave them on forever.

@IanM - I think you misunderstood me. To the developer it's the same thing. I'm looking at this from the devil's advocate point of view of the publisher. You can't blame them for making customers think twice about buying a used copy is all I'm saying.

Like you I think of software as mine to sell when I'm done with it, as with a car, book, CD, DVD, etc. But in the developer/publisher's eyes, it's the same as getting the game pirated (i.e. no money made either way).


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bitJericho
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Posted: 8th Jan 2009 21:43 Edited at: 8th Jan 2009 21:45
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Quote: "I think the only difference with your analogies and games, is that asides from possible damage to the packaging, the game, once installed, will be exactly the same as a new one which would mean people would be more likely to get a second-hand one (unlike a car, where the engine might be worn out, or wear and tear on the other items which will make a difference to the user experience). But I totally agree with you - If you buy a game, of course you should be allowed to sell it second hand..."


Add to that, my local game shop has a 30 day guarantee on all used games. If a disc is scratched, they'll repair it. If it's still no good, you can get your money back. Of course, they'd probably offer up a refund if I asked, but if I buy a game I wanna play it

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Robert F
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Posted: 8th Jan 2009 21:54
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Gamestop sells TONS and TONS of used games. The ones by my house make the most money by selling used games.

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Mr Z
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Posted: 8th Jan 2009 22:03
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Quote: "Well Take 2 eventually patched the DRM out of Bioshock, which EA does with their games too. They don't leave them on forever.

@IanM - I think you misunderstood me. To the developer it's the same thing. I'm looking at this from the devil's advocate point of view of the publisher. You can't blame them for making customers think twice about buying a used copy is all I'm saying.

Like you I think of software as mine to sell when I'm done with it, as with a car, book, CD, DVD, etc. But in the developer/publisher's eyes, it's the same as getting the game pirated (i.e. no money made either way)."


Does that mean that from the developers point of view, it would be equal to pirating to buy someone a game as a Christmas present?

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Jeku
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 00:14
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Quote: "Does that mean that from the developers point of view, it would be equal to pirating to buy someone a game as a Christmas present?"


No, not at all. Think about it. Honda would prefer you buy a new car than a used car as well. If you buy a new car for your friend for Christmas, Honda still got a sale. Basic business principles 101.


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Mr Tank
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 00:20
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Quote: "And it's not as if it'd be secret if a person was let off, imagine the headlines in stuff like the Daily Mail: "Council-Housed Pirate Authorities Let-Off", it would send out the wrong messages. Laws are there for a reason I'm afraid."

Laws are often there for bad reasons. Such as tabloid "ban this sick flith" stories. I certainly wouldn't take the law to be equivalent to "right and wrong".

Not that i'm suggesting anyone break the law. We should all try to conform to the system for our own sakes.

The issue of piracy i'm not totally sure about. Certainly the stuff in anti-piracy ads is mostly a load of cobblers- like how you obviously would have bought it anyway, or how you are funding orgainised crime (by buying nothing).

I think if you contribute a lot to the relevant industry by buying a lot of stuff, then a little bit of piracy is excusable. However, i'm not saying anyone here should actually do it.

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David R
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 00:30
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Quote: "No, not at all. Think about it. Honda would prefer you buy a new car than a used car as well. If you buy a new car for your friend for Christmas, Honda still got a sale. Basic business principles 101.
"


But Honda are still and business and don't put DRM on their cars

DRM will end badly, because it's just a greed device. It has no noticeable effect on piracy, and is just there to try and keep the publishers in control of something they don't actually have control of (usage of the game post sale). They may hype it up and put it in everything, but eventually they'll realise that the consumers have the power, not them.


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draknir_
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 01:45
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Quote: "I think if you contribute a lot to the relevant industry by buying a lot of stuff, then a little bit of piracy is excusable. "


Uhhhh... what? Why would that be excusable?

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Mr Tank
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 01:55
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Quote: "Uhhhh... what? Why would that be excusable?"

I didn't say legal.

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Jeku
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 07:42 Edited at: 9th Jan 2009 07:43
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Quote: "But Honda are still and business and don't put DRM on their cars"


I don't think people understand what my point is. I'm not saying it's right for the company's to put crazy DRM install limits on their software

What I'm saying is this is a logical next step for game companies to curb second-hand sales more than to curb piracy. Pirates will always be pirates until the end of time.

Quote: "I think if you contribute a lot to the relevant industry by buying a lot of stuff, then a little bit of piracy is excusable. "


Yah I know what you mean. I buy tons of gas from this Chevron up the road so I should be able to gas-and-run a few times, don't you think? And hell, I certainly buy enough coffee from 7-11 that I should be excused from stealing some chocolate bars while I'm there.


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JoelJ
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 09:06
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Quote: "I don't think people understand what my point is."

I understand. I think you have a good point.


Quote: "Yah I know what you mean. I buy tons of gas from this Chevron up the road so I should be able to gas-and-run a few times, don't you think? "

Very well said.

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the_winch
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 15:32
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Quote: "What I'm saying is this is a logical next step for game companies to curb second-hand sales more than to curb piracy. Pirates will always be pirates until the end of time."


I work with about 15 20 to 30 year olds. Games get swapped and lent constantly. There are probably at least 7 games being played by someone other than the original owner at any point in time.
To these people the ability to lend and resell games can contribute considerably to the games value.

Trying to prevent second hand sales and lending is only logical if you completely fail to understand your customers.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
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David R
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 17:24 Edited at: 9th Jan 2009 17:25
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Quote: "
What I'm saying is this is a logical next step for game companies to curb second-hand sales more than to curb piracy"


My original point still stands - Honda and most other car companies allow second hand sales, they're still in business, and they don't put DRM or other schemes on their products

Quote: "Trying to prevent second hand sales and lending is only logical if you completely fail to understand your customers"


I agree - not only will they stop second hand sales/swapping etc. they will completely kill their own customer base. No one wants to buy from a power hungry publisher intent on dictating things against fair use, and most people will vote with their wallets - or pirate, since then there's no loss


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draknir_
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 17:43
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Quote: "Quote: "Uhhhh... what? Why would that be excusable?"
I didn't say legal."


Right, I didn't ask why it would be legal, but why it would be excusable.

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JoelJ
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 19:12
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breaking the law is not excusable. especially if it's for the sake of conveniencing your entertainment hour.

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Grandma
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 19:14
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Breaking the law is excusable sometimes. Not that often though.

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Mr Z
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 19:16
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Quote: "Breaking the law is excusable sometimes. Not that often though."


Agreed.

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General Reed
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 19:17
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Quote: "breaking the law is not excusable. especially if it's for the sake of conveniencing your entertainment hour."

Since when were laws supposed to dictate humanitys right and wrong? I agree with laws like physical abuse, Sexual abuse, Steeling, the are clear right and wrongs, natural to all. But laws like tax's on alcahol, What we can and cant consume, Should be up to us, Not the morons in parlement. What really pisses me off, Is the fact that so many laws are there, not for our safety, But for the economy and governement profit. Like car insurance. It should be a choice to have it, It should not be a goddamn law! The only reason it is, Is so insurance companys can charge rediculous prices, As every one NEEDS insurance. Its the same as the health insurance situation in america.

Does anyone agree?

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JoelJ
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 19:30
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Quote: "Like car insurance. It should be a choice to have it, "

You've never been hit by someone who doesn't have car insurance, have you?

The government doesn't have strict drug and alcohol laws strictly for greedy reasons. Ideally, people should be able to choose what they do/don't put in their bodies. But the thing is, they just aren't responsible enough.
Quote: "In the United States, drunk drivers kill or injure someone every two minutes, and alcohol is a factor in almost 40 percent of all fatal car crashes. [http://www.cliffsidemalibu.com/blog/?p=83]"

It's the responsibility of the government to protect it's people. When people are killing people, and the stats is so high from intoxication, then the government not only SHOULD, but NEEDS to fix that problem. Since you or your friends are responsible with what you do, doesn't mean everyone is. It's a safety issue.

Quote: "Breaking the law is excusable sometimes. Not that often though."

which is why I took out the word "never" before I hit post.
However, entertaining yourself isn't an excuse. Protecting your family, on the other hand, is an excuse.

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IanM
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 19:34
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That's not a subject we want to see on these forums Mr Z. Take a break.

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General Reed
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 19:38 Edited at: 9th Jan 2009 21:57
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Nope, But if someone does not have insurance, They should be sent a bill by the government THEN. We should not have to get insurance before we have even had an accident.
Also, My aunt had a Mazda MX-5 for 9 years. About 2 months ago, She got back to her flat from a freinds, Where she left her car, Only to find it was vandelized. The foldable roof was ripped, Car dented, The morons had even pissed on the seats.
Now she had been paying what started at £600 a month, Eventualy went down to £200 a year on car insurance. After all that, Guess what the insurance morons say? "Sorry it would cost more to repair the car, Than buy a new one". Ok so the insurance people should pay the price for a new one, but no they would not agree to that either. They would not even pay for a smaller replacement car so she could go to work! What was the point in paying all that insurance? Its just profit making, And anyone else who thinks otherwise is a fool.

Quote: "But the thing is, they just aren't responsible enough."

Yes, I understand the law of limiting to 18 years old, But the huge tax is plain profiteering. Again, Im sorry, But anyone who cant see this is a fool.

<Mod Edit: Removed Quote of a deleted comment>

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Grandma
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 19:44
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Quote: "However, entertaining yourself isn't an excuse. Protecting your family, on the other hand, is an excuse."

Who knows, that kid might be a pshyco. The only way to calm him down and to protect your family is to entertain him with videogames.

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Mr Tank
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 20:00
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Quote: "Yah I know what you mean. I buy tons of gas from this Chevron up the road so I should be able to gas-and-run a few times, don't you think? And hell, I certainly buy enough coffee from 7-11 that I should be excused from stealing some chocolate bars while I'm there."

No that's not cool.

Quote: "Since when were laws supposed to dictate humanitys right and wrong? I agree with laws like physical abuse, Sexual abuse, Steeling, the are clear right and wrongs, natural to all. But laws like tax's on alcahol, What we can and cant consume, Should be up to us, Not the morons in parlement."


Yes. Basically i agree with you. There are loads of retarded laws. I have a big beef with things like obscenity. Pretty soon it's going to be illegal in the UK to POSSESS "extreme pornography", created entirely by consenting adults. I find this to be massively retarded and wrong. Also prostitution laws. I am also against the prohibition of most drugs. Most of the bad stuff associated with drugs occurs because it's illegal. Not because drugs are bad, mmkay?

However, things like taxation and mandatory car insurance exist for a reason. Remember that roads are public places, and that your driving on them directly endangers the wellbeing of others. The government should be able to police what happens on the roads, but, excepting abuse, murder, fraud etc like you say, not what goes on in people's homes. Tax on fags makes sense. The money offsets the cost to the NHS giving you cancer treatment or whatever.

Back to the issue of piracy then. As a kid i had very little money. I'd swap games with friends and tape them. We all bought as many games that our pocket money would allow. Now, having grown up with videogames, i can't kick the habit. I have loads of spare money and don't pirate anything. The industry wins. I do pirate responsibly- say i miss my favourite TV show, i can catch up online. Say i hear there's a cool TV series in the states and it isn't coming here, i might download the first couple of eps before i buy the DVD. That kind of thing. Just be sensible. Like, don't take too many drugs etc.

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ionstream
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 20:01
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Quote: "Since when were laws supposed to dictate humanitys right and wrong?"


Since laws were invented? You elected people to make these laws, and you don't have any right whatsoever to pick and choose what laws to follow. You can protest, rally against unfair laws, and elect people to change the laws, but you can't break them.

Quote: "Again, Im sorry, But anyone who cant see this is a fool."


You need to work on your argument strategies and general thought processes. There is a chance that you are wrong you know.

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Mr Tank
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 20:14
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Quote: "Since laws were invented? You elected people to make these laws, and you don't have any right whatsoever to pick and choose what laws to follow. You can protest, rally against unfair laws, and elect people to change the laws, but you can't break them."

Tell that to gay Britons pre 1967. OK guys no rude stuff until the law changes. Might take a few decades. Sorry.

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Grandma
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 20:15
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You have a moral right to break silly laws, and breaking them is a protest in itself.

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General Reed
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 20:17
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Quote: "Remember that roads are public places, and that your driving on them directly endangers the wellbeing of others"

Indeed, But we should not have to pay money BEFORE the accident occours, But when, As most of the time we are paying for nothing, And where does this money go? Well that seems obvious to me.

Quote: "Tax on fags makes sense. The money offsets the cost to the NHS giving you cancer treatment or whatever."

Good point, I never thought about it that way.

Quote: "Since laws were invented? You elected people to make these laws, and you don't have any right whatsoever to pick and choose what laws to follow. "

Actualy i dont vote. We dont have any control on WHAT laws are invented. We have to select from set lists of laws, It should not be like that. We need to have votes on particular laws.

Quote: "you don't have any right whatsoever to pick and choose what laws to follow"

Yes i do. Its my life, I can do what i damn want. What we dont have a right to do, Is do wrong things. I should be alowed to consume whatever i want. I should be able to sleep with whoever i want, you cant control who you love afterall. Some of the laws are just rediculous.

Quote: "You need to work on your argument strategies and general thought processes. There is a chance that you are wrong you know."

Of course there is. Every argument in history has a chance of being wrong. The way i see it tho, Is where else would the money go? Like what could the money from alcahol tax be used on? Until these questions are answered by our governement, Im afraid i will have this point of view. But what are you gona do?

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bitJericho
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 20:30 Edited at: 9th Jan 2009 20:31
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Quote: "Indeed, But we should not have to pay money BEFORE the accident occours, But when, As most of the time we are paying for nothing, And where does this money go? Well that seems obvious to me."


If that were the case, insurance companies would go out of business. The point of insurance is to spread the wealth around. What happens if you destroy a 1 million dollar car. (or do 1 million worth of damage to the person you hit, or who hit you)

Fine, you get to pay off 1 million dollars for the next 30 years. That'll be 2800/mo for the next 30 years, please.

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General Reed
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 20:44
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Quote: "If that were the case, insurance companies would go out of business."

That is what im saying! The insurance companies make money out of a decrepit law. A law should be there for safety, not profit.

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ionstream
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 20:44
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Quote: "Yes i do. Its my life, I can do what i damn want."


Then you don't deserve to live in a civilized democratic society and may move to an uncharted jungle somewhere.

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General Reed
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 20:45 Edited at: 9th Jan 2009 20:46
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Quote: "Then you don't deserve to live in a civilized democratic society and may move to an uncharted jungle somewhere."




I think some laws are perfectly resonable, But laws which are obviously in place for no purpose other than for the governments profit, Is unacceptable, And i will not obey them. Seriously are you telling me you did not drink under age? If so, Then good on you, But you are one in a million.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 20:51 Edited at: 9th Jan 2009 20:52
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Quote: "That is what im saying! The insurance companies make money out of a decrepit law. A law should be there for safety, not profit."


I think there's a law for how much an insurance company can profit off of insurance plans.

The alternative is for the Government to run an insurance plan. Do you really want to wait months to cash out on an (even small) insurance claim?

Further, you can go without auto-insurance. I believe you simply have to a have a balance in a bank account somewhere. It's on the order of many hundreds of thousands though.

(This is for the US, of course, I dunno about elsewhere)

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General Reed
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 20:52
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Quote: "Further, you can go without auto-insurance. I believe you simply have to a have a balance in a bank account somewhere. It's on the order of many hundreds of thousands though."

Hmm, I dont think that applies in the uk tho.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 20:57
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Quote: "I think some laws are perfectly resonable, But laws which are obviously in place for no purpose other than for the governments profit, Is unacceptable, And i will not obey them. Seriously are you telling me you did not drink under age? If so, Then good on you, But you are one in a million."


How is *not* drinking when you're under 18 benefiting the government? The government benefits on alcohol purchases because of alcohol tax, which I'm sure exists in the UK as well as the US

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Mr Tank
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 20:57 Edited at: 9th Jan 2009 21:01
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Quote: "Then you don't deserve to live in a civilized democratic society and may move to an uncharted jungle somewhere."
Quote: "You need to work on your argument strategies and general thought processes. There is a chance that you are wrong you know.
"


Anyway. Car insurance makes sense. If you hit a car that costs more than you can afford, what happens? You could say that everyone should just pay for their own car's damage, and if they really want to go around driving a super expensive car, then they should be prepared to pay up. However, this encourages dangerous driving.

Given that you should pay for the other car (3rd party), compulsory insurance makes sense, because otherwise there's no guarantee you'll be able to pay, and also no guarantee the 3rd party wont defraud you. Car insurance is cool.

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Mr Tank
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:00
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Furthermore, the profit insurance companies make is pretty negligible, on account of it being a free market economy. They provide a necessary service for minimal cost.

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General Reed
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:03
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Quote: "However, this encourages dangerous driving."

So if you were in a 1Mil Veryon, You would be thinking "Aha, Lets drive faster, So i can pay for damages on my car!".

Im confused.

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AndrewT
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Location: MI, USA
Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:04 Edited at: 9th Jan 2009 21:06
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Quote: "I think some laws are perfectly resonable, But laws which are obviously in place for no purpose other than for the governments profit, Is unacceptable, And i will not obey them. Seriously are you telling me you did not drink under age? If so, Then good on you, But you are one in a million."


I think Jerico2Day mentioned this, but how on earth does not drinking underage give the government money? If anything, the government is losing money from this law; it's not there for profit, it's there for protection.


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