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Geek Culture / An Interesting View on Piracy

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the_winch
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:07
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Quote: "Since laws were invented? You elected people to make these laws, and you don't have any right whatsoever to pick and choose what laws to follow. You can protest, rally against unfair laws, and elect people to change the laws, but you can't break them."


Of course you have a right to choose what laws to follow. It's a fundamental part of allowing a society to evolve.

Take that right away and the laws need to predict societies direction before it happens. Pretty much an impossibility for the older experienced trustworthy people you want looking after laws.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
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General Reed
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:07
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Quote: "I think Jerico2Day mentioned this, but how on earth does not drinking underage give the government money?"

Oops, i should have started a new line lol, I was just asking the question, Not relating it to the previous statement. Sorry. I'm aware that it does not give the government money. What does give the government money tho is taxing on alcohol. Like what's the point? How does it benefit us in any way? Its just profiteering as i said.

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Mr Tank
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:07
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Quote: "So if you were in a 1Mil Veryon, You would be thinking "Aha, Lets drive faster, So i can pay for damages on my car!".

Im confused."

The Veyron driver is still careful. His/her insurance will go way up if they crash it. Maybe they can't even get fully comp on that car.

It would encourage dangerous driving in the sense that someone with a hella cheap car wouldn't really care about bashing into everyone else.

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General Reed
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:10
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Quote: "It would encourage dangerous driving in the sense that someone with a hella cheap car wouldn't really care about bashing into everyone else."

But then you would like have to buy a whole new car. The main problem is that, For the younger selection of us, Its actualy more expensive to insure a car, than buy one. Its maddness i tell yee.

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ionstream
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:10
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Quote: "Anyway. "


What? If you're going to live in a place where you use it's resources, you need to follow its rules.

Quote: "Seriously are you telling me you did not drink under age?"


Yes. Even if I did though, it wouldn't have been right to do so and I would have fully deserved any consequences that came of it.

Quote: "How is *not* drinking when you're under 18 benefiting the government? "


I guess less deaths in a country is always a positive.

Quote: "Indeed, But we should not have to pay money BEFORE the accident occours, But when, As most of the time we are paying for nothing, And where does this money go? Well that seems obvious to me."


I don't think you know how insurance works. This is the system that every kind of insurance uses: everyone pays a certain fee so that the few who need to use the service, like car insurance, don't have to pay through the roof out of their own pocket for it. The money you're paying when your not in an accident is going to people who did have an accident.

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Mr Tank
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:12
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I agree with the_winch.

Quote: "What does give the government money tho is taxing on alcohol. Like what's the point? How does it benefit us in any way? Its just profiteering as i said."

A lot of policing (drunken behaviour) and health service (liver damage) costs result from drinking. Therefore taxation should cover this. However, i do think that the taxes are probably on the high side, which is unwarranted. Not sure if profiteering is the right word, since most of the money gets spent on other stuff which (at least in theory) benefits the people.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:13 Edited at: 9th Jan 2009 21:15
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Quote: "But then you would like have to buy a whole new car. The main problem is that, For the younger selection of us, Its actualy more expensive to insure a car, than buy one. Its maddness i tell yee.
"


Dude, I pay 50 bucks a month for insurance. At 18, I paid 50 bucks a month for insurance.

If you have a car and drive to work every day, you spend *at least* 40 to 50 bucks a month for upkeep on average, and you make at least a grand a month doing full time work.

If you can't afford car insurance, you can't afford a car in the first place.

PS, if I pay that much in insurance (the legal minimum) for the rest of my life, I'd spend about 30k in insurance. that'll cover one or two minor crashes if I paid for it myself. I'd be lucky if that covered one bad crash.

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Jeku
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:14
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So all DRM is bad?


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Mr Tank
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:15
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Quote: "But then you would like have to buy a whole new car. The main problem is that, For the younger selection of us, Its actualy more expensive to insure a car, than buy one. Its maddness i tell yee."

That's tough. You'd have people with money getting cheap cars, affixing bull bars and stuff and going banger racing on the public road.

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General Reed
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:16
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Quote: "What? If you're going to live in a place where you use it's resources, you need to follow its rules."

I already pay for these "Resources" of which you speak, So the government have no right to take more from unneeded taxes.

Quote: "Yes. Even if I did though, it wouldn't have been right to do so and I would have fully deserved any consequences that came of it."

Why tho? Seriously How does it effect what YOU PERSONALLY consume? Its silly.

Quote: "I don't think you know how insurance works. This is the system that every kind of insurance uses: everyone pays a certain fee so that the few who need to use the service, like car insurance, don't have to pay through the roof out of their own pocket for it. The money you're paying when your not in an accident is going to people who did have an accident."

Forget it. Im perfectly aware of how insurance works, I just think there needs to be a better system.

This argument is pointless anyway, Im never going to believe that all government laws are 100% for our well-being, I just cant, because in my eyes its BS.

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General Reed
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:18
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Quote: "Dude, I pay 50 bucks a month for insurance. At 18, I paid 50 bucks a month for insurance."

Dude, Here, A simple ford fiesta costs a one off £500 of ebay, fully working etc. Inurance at the age of 18 for a male, costs £2300!!!!!!! See what i mean?

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bitJericho
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:20 Edited at: 9th Jan 2009 21:20
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is that full coverage? Liability (the legal minimum, where you only pay for medical and the other guy's car, not your own car), costs anywhere about 40-100/mo USD here, depending on company and your driving record.

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General Reed
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:22
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No its just liability, Minimum here too.

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Lemonade
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:22 Edited at: 9th Jan 2009 21:23
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Quote: "Of course you have a right to choose what laws to follow. It's a fundamental part of allowing a society to evolve.

Take that right away and the laws need to predict societies direction before it happens. Pretty much an impossibility for the older experienced trustworthy people you want looking after laws."


So a murderer can choose not to obey the "don't kill" law? You're not making any sense at all; the way you are saying it those laws seem more like guidelines than anything else.

Laws are there to protect people. While you may not be happy with all of them, as a citizen of your country you are required to follow them or move to someplace else. So you still have the "right to choose."
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Mr Tank
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:25 Edited at: 9th Jan 2009 21:25
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Quote: "Dude, Here, A simple ford fiesta costs a one off £500 of ebay, fully working etc. Inurance at the age of 18 for a male, costs £2300!!!!!!! See what i mean?"

It sucks dude. You just have to suck it up and pay the money. Give it a few years, and provided you don't crash, it'll go down.

Unfortunately, the price relates to the probability, given your age, gender etc, of you smashing up your motor. Drive carefully!

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ionstream
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:29 Edited at: 9th Jan 2009 21:32
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Quote: "Of course you have a right to choose what laws to follow. It's a fundamental part of allowing a society to evolve."


Why do people think this? There are very few cases where breaking a law is right, like in cases extreme injustice. If people had the right to choose what laws to follow then there wouldn't be a point for laws in the first place, and it has nothing to do with the evolution of society.

Quote: "Why tho? Seriously How does it effect what YOU PERSONALLY consume? Its silly."


It's been found that underage drinkers tend to do more stupid things, and since I'm not above the law I can't just break it because I think I can handle it, I might be wrong.

Quote: "Im never going to believe that all government laws are 100% for our well-being,"


Well I can't imagine 100% of it is for us, but most are, life just isn't that interesting.

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Mr Tank
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:29
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Quote: "
So a murderer can choose not to obey the "don't kill" law? You're not making any sense at all; the way you are saying it those laws seem more like guidelines than anything else."

Of course a murder can choose not to obey that law. Kind of by definition they have. Of course, it's reasonable that they be charged for it.

Quote: "Laws are there to protect people. While you may not be happy with all of them, as a citizen of your country you are required to follow them or move to someplace else. So you still have the "right to choose.""

Some laws protect. Others are just retarded. If the law was perfect, it would never change. Actually it does change. Sadly not always for the best.

Back in the day when Homosexual acts were illegal- Who was that protecting? In the middle east where you can get stoned to death for not wearing you Burkha, who does that protect? It's naiive to think that the law, in any place or time is beyond criticism.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:31
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I wouldn't be willing to pay 300usd/mo for insurance (that's 2300 pounds/yr right?).

That's just completely outrageous.

"I acctually quite like this site. And noone will know because this is a secret..." - Anonymous
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Mr Tank
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:32 Edited at: 9th Jan 2009 21:34
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Quote: "Why do people think this?"

That Rosa Parks should have been locked up. And those Sufragettes. And Oscar Wilde. All enemies of decent, law abiding society. They should have just moved somewhere else.

[/sarcasm]

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BatVink
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 21:59
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Quote: "But Honda are still and business and don't put DRM on their cars"


They don't? Wow, things have changed!
Have you ever needed a reset on your engine control management? It can be rather costly to get that little orange light on your dashboard switched off.

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General Reed
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 22:02
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Quote: "Why do people think this? There are very few cases where breaking a law is right, like in cases extreme injustice. If people had the right to choose what laws to follow then there wouldn't be a point for laws in the first place, and it has nothing to do with the evolution of society."

Well, Lately ive been having problem with a certain chav. He hit me about 1.5 years ago, When i wasn't looking (In a good old fashion dark alley), They found the guy, Now i know who he is. Now every time i see him, I just want to beat the crap out of him. In the world of humanity's RIGHT AND WRONG, I should be allowed, Because of him, i had to take 3 weeks off college, Leading to me leaving college. Now because of that im sitting here in this recession depressed, With no job. But according to the so call "Undenyable laws" i cant take revenge, Now im sorry but that's BS. He now takes advantage of this situation, And the police wont do a damn thing. Would you call this fair justice? I certainly don't.

Now why is it, That the police will go to great lengths to stop the odd person here and there from pirating a £30 game, But do NOTHING about the chav problem here in britan. Simple, They make no MONEY off of it.

You can probably see where i get my attitude of "Laws are BS" from, But can you blame me?

Quote: "I wouldn't be willing to pay 300usd/mo for insurance (that's 2300 pounds/yr right?).

That's just completely outrageous."

Exactly.

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AndrewT
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 23:30 Edited at: 9th Jan 2009 23:31
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Quote: "I just want to beat the crap out of him. In the world of humanity's RIGHT AND WRONG, I should be allowed,"


What's "right" and "wrong" is a very arbitrary subject, that's why we have laws. Imagine if we had a society where, if someone kills somebody, we ask if them if they thought what they did was "wrong" or "right", and if they thought it was "right" they're let off the hook. What kind of twisted logic is that? Everybody's idea of "right" and "wrong" is different, so laws can't work exactly on that idea.


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General Reed
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 23:32
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Quote: "What's "right" and "wrong" is a very arbitrary subject, that's why we have laws. Imagine if we had a society where, if someone kills somebody, we ask if them if they thought what they did was "wrong" or "right", and if they thought it was "right" they're let off the hook. What kind of twisted logic is that? Everybody's idea of "right" and "wrong" is different, so laws can't work exactly on that idea."

Ok lets have a vote. Would it be wrong to take revenge on the chav who has now wasted 2 years of my educational life, Which i will not get back? Like all my freinds are at uni, While im just stuck here with no A levels.

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RedneckRambo
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 23:36
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Quote: "Would it be wrong to take revenge on the chav who has now wasted 2 years of my educational life,"

Apparently you've never heard of "Spirit of the Law."

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General Reed
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Posted: 9th Jan 2009 23:40
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I have, But in a court case, You get done on the basis of the letter, rather than the spirit of the law. I think it should be the other way round tbh.

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Mr Tank
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 00:13
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Quote: "Apparently you've never heard of "Spirit of the Law.""

Tell that to the people spied on under terrorist laws who get done for using the wrong wheelybins , or the 17 year olds taking photos of themselves who get done for kiddy pron.

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JoelJ
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 00:23 Edited at: 10th Jan 2009 04:18
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By the way - Taxes are used to pay for your roads, your bridges, etc, and in the US the government helps pay for much of your university tuition if you live in that state. Anyway, taxes aren't 100% bad. I'm not saying I don't think taxes are too high. But I do think they're necessary.

And on the subject of what's "right" and what's "wrong", yes, we have the right to do anything that is "right". But who decides if that's right? Someone stated back a few posts that they should be able to sleep with whomever they want. I don't think that's right. But obviously HE does. So who's side should we take? Well, lets take a vote, everyone who agrees with me, vote for me. Anyone who agrees with him, vote for him.
Woh, wait... that's what we're doing already. Now we have laws that some agree with and some disagree with.

So, based on that, here we are today, some think that downloading games "illegally" is okay, some don't. But the law makers have decided that it's not. So now it's our duty to obey that. If we have a problem, we protest it and get that changed. Until the law is changed, it's illegal, and the government has every right to fine you and the company being pirated from has every right to sue you.

[edit] just fixed some spelling and grammar.

[/url]
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ionstream
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 00:36
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Quote: "That Rosa Parks should have been locked up. And those Sufragettes. And Oscar Wilde. All enemies of decent, law abiding society. They should have just moved somewhere else."


Quote: "There are very few cases where breaking a law is right, like in cases extreme injustice."


Although Oscar Wilde should have been punched in the crotch repeatedly for being so annoying.

Quote: "You can probably see where i get my attitude of "Laws are BS" from, But can you blame me?"


I don't know. I can see you are bitter from what happened, and that I can understand, and frankly I'm not sure why you couldn't go to court or whatever the legal proceeding is over there.

And pretend I said everything that JoelJ did!

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draknir_
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 00:49
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@JoelJ - Smart man! Wholeheartedly agree.

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Grandma
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 00:52
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I agree with whoever's right.

This message was brought to you by Grandma industries.

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Mr Tank
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 01:00
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Quote: "I agree with whoever's right."

Thanks dude. I appreciate it.

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RedneckRambo
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 01:02
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Quote: "or the 17 year olds taking photos of themselves who get done for kiddy pron."

Ok? They're 17, you have to be 18. That's a crazy concept.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 01:21
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Quote: "Ok? They're 17, you have to be 18. That's a crazy concept."


Why is it that porn of 17 year olds is illegal? I'll tell you why, it's because they're too young to make these types of decisions. But when they're arrested for distributing their own pictures, suddenly they're old enough to have realized their mistakes?

That makes no sense

That said, a 17 yo should be stopped from doing so, it's only damaging them in the long run. So as long as they weren't tried as an adult or something ridiculous like that, I'm cool with it.

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Grandma
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 01:32
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SamHH
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 02:28
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With the age of consent pretty much just dependent on partners being the same age in the U.S. this idea of porn for people 18 or older is just ridiculous.


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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 10:14
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Quote: "Ok lets have a vote. Would it be wrong to take revenge on the chav who has now wasted 2 years of my educational life, Which i will not get back? Like all my freinds are at uni, While im just stuck here with no A levels."


To put it bluntly, life isn't fair. To maintain your quality of life in your rich country, life *can't* be fair for everyone in the world. There are no countries that operate like you wish for a reason, they would simply fall apart.


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Chris K
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 11:29
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You were punched so you had to miss three weeks of college? And then you had to drop out?!?

Quote: "Not the morons in parlement."




-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 12:03
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Wow...that was a pretty good punch if it meant you needed three weeks to recover from it...

Another grey area for me is what if someone hosts a video on say....YouTube? I've seen alot of videos from movies that've been broken up and uploaded, although I don't actually watch them, because YouTube's video quality sucks...

Is it illegal to do so? I'm kinda confused by it, because you're showing copyrighted media to people for free, but you're not re-distributing it. It's kinda like having a movie playing on a TV in a restaurant, but in cyber-form...

It probably is illegal, but I dunno because it might not...

"Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Give a man a fishing rod, and he'll break it up into firewood...or swap it for a fish."
-Frankie Boyle, on Mock the Week
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BatVink
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 12:06
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Quote: "Another grey area for me is what if someone hosts a video on say....YouTube? ...Is it illegal to do so? "


Absolutely illegal, you don't own the right to distribute somebody else's film.
YouTube has the technology to detect this, and inform the owner of the work. But it is the owner that must provide the data to create this copy-protection.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 12:27
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Ahh I see...

It's confusing. If I buy a DVD, I have the right to put it on a TV, and watch it with friends, or lend it to a friend say they can watch it. But doing this via the internet is illegal? I understand that selling or even uploading copies is illegal, but what if you don't copy it?

"Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Give a man a fishing rod, and he'll break it up into firewood...or swap it for a fish."
-Frankie Boyle, on Mock the Week
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General Reed
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 15:39
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Quote: "You were punched so you had to miss three weeks of college? And then you had to drop out?!?"

Yes. Well he got me with an old gate panel, as i walked around the corner. I was in hospital for 3 days, And was concussed for another 2.5 weeks. My attendance was already flaky due to other problems, And that 3 weeks off was the final straw.

Quote: "Quote: "Not the morons in parlement."
"

Jokes on u.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 16:02 Edited at: 10th Jan 2009 16:06
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Quote: "You were punched so you had to miss three weeks of college? And then you had to drop out?!?"


Which would not make sense, or at least from how I'm reading it. My final year of 6th Form in a state school I was suffering from stress, it cause me to have palpitations and the doctor recommended I learned to chill out and take a break, I had a big project to hand in that we, I told my teachers/head of department dealing with my project and they extended my deadline. Then I sat the next 3 weeks sitting on the sofa with a playstation controller in my hand learning to 'chill-out', in the last week I got on with my work, handed it in and got a good mark.

Had it been exams, there are conditions where you can retake them. If you're not well enough for school according to the doctor, then there are special circumstances.


So I am confused as to why you had to drop out after staying off for 3 weeks? The taking the 3 weeks off can be understandable, my house-mate was put into hospital by the bullies she went to school with.

[Edit] I see your new post:


Quote: " And that 3 weeks off was the final straw."


Well bad attendance is sort of your fault. But having a medical reason for being off, well you should have complained and got your doctor in on it. If the doctor recommends you time off, then the school can't complain.



Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Not the morons in parlement."
"
Jokes on u."


I think it was meant to be a jab on your spelling of 'parliament', though I think there are foolish people in there yes and to me it looks much like the big brother house, but that's a whole other discussion, the kind the AUP forbids.

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the_winch
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 16:39 Edited at: 10th Jan 2009 16:42
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Youtube is quite a good example. With a strict adherence to the law youtube could not exist. There is no way to prevent people uploading illegal content which youtube ends up distributing.
I think it's pretty undeniable youtube has been an overall benefit to the web.

Another example would be that it is illegal in the UK to format shift cds to mp3s. Something that is possibly done by 10s of millions of people. The motions to get this changed are only now starting to move 10 years after the practice of ripping cds became popular.

Trying to explain the potential of web video or mp3 files to the powers that be is extremely likely to fail with out massive resources. Massive resources that don't exist unless there are millions of users.

This isn't some theory or idealism. This is how the system actually works and is largely intended to work. It's why courts and police are allowed to exercise discretion.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
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General Reed
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 18:16
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Quote: "Well bad attendance is sort of your fault. But having a medical reason for being off, well you should have complained and got your doctor in on it. If the doctor recommends you time off, then the school can't complain."

Indeed, But i was getting back on my feet, Then that happened. If it didn't then i would still be in college, And at university next year, that is why im pissed off.

CPU: AMD X2 6000+ 3.0ghz GFX: NVIDIA BFG Geforce 8800GTS 640MB OC-550mhz core RAM: 2048mb

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hatlawyer
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 18:20
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Some law changes are quite silly for example the law was recently changed so that you have to be over 18 to buy a pack of fags but its totally legal to supply fags to under 18s for free. I dont get how they could really prevent under 18s from getting hold of them anyway as a lot of kids are already addicted its not fair to say everyone under 18 has to go cold turkey instantly.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 18:22 Edited at: 10th Jan 2009 18:23
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I can see it being very annoying, but sort of the whiplash for poor attendance. Unfortunately these things happen and you have to live with it - some of the people I was with in sixth form had to stay behind for another year and I went to Uni, I'm sure they didn't like it, but they themselves are at Uni and are enjoying it. Our sixth form tutors used to nag like hell about attendance - I also used to find their 'nags' amusing - nagging about poor attendance, when the people who don't turn up aren't there and talks about drugs when the druggies were doing drugs on the common. I kind of thought the points of those assemblies never got quite delivered.

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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 19:59
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Quote: "YouTube has the technology to detect this, and inform the owner of the work. But it is the owner that must provide the data to create this copy-protection."


Are you sure they have tech to automatically detect this? That seems very impossible even with today's technology. I know they can detect songs automatically--- I have an app on my iPhone to detect a song on the radio, but video as well? That just seems very sci-fi


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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 10th Jan 2009 20:33
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It's possible, they did it for Rickrolls. But the quality must be an exact replica of the original, it must analyse the frames and reference them with a sample...

"Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Give a man a fishing rod, and he'll break it up into firewood...or swap it for a fish."
-Frankie Boyle, on Mock the Week
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David R
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Posted: 11th Jan 2009 19:47 Edited at: 11th Jan 2009 19:49
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Quote: ", but video as well?"


Surely a simple method would be a FFT/DFT of the signals and then doing a % match?


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
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Jeku
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Posted: 11th Jan 2009 20:07
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Quote: "Surely a simple method would be a FFT/DFT of the signals and then doing a % match?"


I don't think you can use the word simple as a way to describe automatically detecting copyright infringement in video. Just think of the millions of copyrighted works out there--- astronomically impossible. I have a feeling YouTube employs people to do manual searches. I've seen video clips on there that have been submitted months ago that are straight out of movies and TV shows.


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