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Geek Culture / Windows without a browser or 890 million dollar, please.

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IanM
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 15:02
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Ok, try this on for size:

Swearing, in any form, is against the AUP. You swear again, you get banned.

End of story, get used to it.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 15:05
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Quote: "That's clearly because Linux is not a primary target for hackers. A default install of Linux, depending on the distribution, can easily install dozens of apps that will render the entire system insecure. Many times you have to manually disable them but as we all know, even Linux systems can be hacked given the right situation and an incompetent admin"


Not convinced:

http://www.efluxmedia.com/news_Linux_Unhackable_At_TippingPoint_Contest_15743.html

"I acctually quite like this site. And noone will know because this is a secret..." - Anonymous
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General Reed
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 15:06
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Quote: "Swearing, in any form, is against the AUP. You swear again, you get banned.

End of story, get used to it."

Oh dear, whatever will i do.

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General Reed
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 15:09
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Quote: "http://www.efluxmedia.com/news_Linux_Unhackable_At_TippingPoint_Contest_15743.html"

Lol just proves how secure linux is.

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Oolite
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 15:16
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To be honest you are coming across a bit of prick, mainly due to your offensive nature. Its not helping you or anyones opinion of you.
Like benjamin said, there are rules on this forum to stop you offending the younger audience in here, so bloody follow them and grow up.
Do you hear any electorial candidates shouting and swearing at his opponents during a debate? No. Why? Because its rude, offensive and doesn't show a good character. The only way you are going to realise this, is by growing up. It is plainly showing me that if you have to resort to shouting and swearing during a debate, then you have no strong foundation on which to base your argument on.

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Thraxas
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 15:20
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Quote: "Oh dear, Whatever shall i do. Grow up, Everyone swears, stop acting like its a crime."


I personally am not offended by swearing whatsoever, however, there are people who are offended by it and then take the time to email me to complain about it.

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General Reed
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 15:21 Edited at: 31st Jan 2009 15:25
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Quote: "To be honest you are coming across a bit of prick, mainly due to your offensive nature. Its not helping you or anyones opinion of you.
Like benjamin said, there are rules on this forum to stop you offending the younger audience in here, so bloody follow them and grow up.
Do you hear any electorial candidates shouting and swearing at his opponents during a debate? No. Why? Because its rude, offensive and doesn't show a good character. The only way you are going to realise this, is by growing up. It is plainly showing me that if you have to resort to shouting and swearing during a debate, then you have no strong foundation on which to base your argument on."

I don't care what you guys think of me any more. Im actually usualy known as the "mature" one of the group believe it or not, But you people treat me like [mod edit], so you get it in return.

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General Reed
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 15:22
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Quote: "I personally am not offended by swearing whatsoever, however, there are people who are offended by it and then take the time to email me to complain about it."

Lol its just silly. Like who gets offended by a word. They tell people who do swear to grow up, But everyone else just tells them to get a life.

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Satchmo
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 15:25
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Quote: "Quote: "That's clearly because Linux is not a primary target for hackers. A default install of Linux, depending on the distribution, can easily install dozens of apps that will render the entire system insecure. Many times you have to manually disable them but as we all know, even Linux systems can be hacked given the right situation and an incompetent admin"

Not convinced:

http://www.efluxmedia.com/news_Linux_Unhackable_At_TippingPoint_Contest_15743.html"


Yeah but they had like what, a day? Linux isn't un-hackable, nothing is.

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IanM
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 15:27
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Quote: "believe it or not"

Not.
Anyway, I have no choice but to give you a break from the forums for a few days. Bye.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 15:28
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Quote: "Yeah but they had like what, a day? Linux isn't un-hackable, nothing is."


I'm not saying it's un-hackable. They had 3 days, and the participants got both Mac and Windows within that time period.

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Satchmo
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 15:33
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Quote: "I'm not saying it's un-hackable. They had 3 days, and the participants got both Mac and Windows within that time period.
"


That could be any number of things not related to how secure the system is, maybe they were more experienced with windows security.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 15:44
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Yeah, Jerico2day's argument is a very weak one.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 15:47
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Quote: "That could be any number of things not related to how secure the system is, maybe they were more experienced with windows security."


Because mac is related to windows how?

"I acctually quite like this site. And noone will know because this is a secret..." - Anonymous
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David R
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 15:49
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The Mac exploit was via Safari, how on earth is that anything to do with the OS? (That's like saying Win is insecure due to holes in IE, if you ignore the fact that IE is tightly integrated with Windows)


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bitJericho
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 16:15
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Yes, and Ubuntu has firefox, flash, and all that also installed. It's not like it was a fully loaded mac with a minimal shell install of ubuntu :/

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David R
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 16:20
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My point is, this is absolutely nothing to do with the security of the OS what-so-ever.

Oh, I'm running "Insecure application 2009" on my PC, and it can be hacked, oh my God, Windows must be insecure!


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bitJericho
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 16:27 Edited at: 31st Jan 2009 16:30
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Quote: "Oh, I'm running "Insecure application 2009" on my PC, and it can be hacked, oh my God, Windows must be insecure!"


Yes, it does. Why should windows allow an insecure application to be taken over and allow full access to the machine?

In linux, you would have to login as root, give permission to install the program then run it as root, in order for that program to be used to take over other parts of the OS.

In fact, it's so difficult to do in an OS like Ubuntu (where there are chicken little warnings every step of the way) that you'd have to be physically retarded in order for it to happen.

There are few public services that actually run as root in Linux. Those that can be haxxored due to bad config (and have any meaningful use) are Apache, bind, ftpd, (among others) all of which do NOT run as root. The worst that can happen is that that service goes down or that particular service is compromised. In the case of httpd getting compromised, it can be very bad. But it alone won't give a hacker access to the rest of your machine. Only in a mal-configured installation could any of those services be taken over and thusly get the OS taken over as well.

In fact, it's my opinion that if you are working with any sensitive information, you're unsecure if you use anything *but* linux.

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Roxas
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 16:35
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ARRGGH... Just ban General already, Usually linux users are wise, but seems like i was wrong. General you are just fanboy and i hate you. Just let everyone use the OS they prefer.

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David R
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 16:35 Edited at: 31st Jan 2009 16:38
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Quote: "In fact, it's so difficult to do in an OS like Ubuntu (where there are chicken little warnings every step of the way) that you'd have to be physically retarded in order for it to happen.

There are few public services that actually run as root in Linux."


Exactly the same for OS X - this is precisely why I wonder about the scope of the 'attack' on Safari - I doubt it's complete control of the machine. Other contests declare winners by saying that the exploit only needs to win with user privileges (e.g. CanSecWest) - so it's highly unlikely that Safari got root access (and hence it's still nothing to do with the OS - Safari, as with pretty much everything else, is only run with user privs to begin with, as per Linux)


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Mr Z
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 16:38
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As a note on that contest, think Windows (Vista by the way) was hacked because of a flaw in Flash.

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 16:39 Edited at: 31st Jan 2009 16:42
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Ah, I see what you're getting at. Even if it was just user access, and not root access, I still say that if it only took 2 mins, and Ubuntu couldn't be broken in 3 days, even with flash, firefox, and various other apps installed, Ubuntu is more secure

Also, this article:

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Vista-Ultimate-SP1-and-Ubuntu-Shame-the-Ultra-Hackable-Mac-OS-X-10-5-Leopard-81894.shtml

Show there was no third-party software installed on the Mac, it was the default (updated) installation.

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David R
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 16:43
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It's not a very fair test though - the winning teams probably made the OSes they 'broke' their entire focus for the competition (i.e. I doubt they spent equal time per OS). This means the teams that won could just be stronger than those that worked on other OSes

It's pedantic, I know, but I still don't think the results are entirely fair - if all the teams focused on the same OS for a set quantity of time, and Linux still didn't get broken, I'd be more convinced.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 16:50
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I'm not convinced. This was a hacking contest with real money and real hardware. Mac OS was brought down in 30 seconds, but the hackers were newbs to linux hacking?

I doubt it.

Here's what I think. I think Windows and Macs are insecure, and Linux is secure. I think it's not because Linux is less popular, I think it's because Linux is just more secure

http://www-01.ibm.com/software/info/features/feb152005/#secu

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David R
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 17:08
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Quote: " but the hackers were newbs to linux hacking?"


That's not what I said. The stronger teams (i.e the teams that won) don't appear to have attempted each OS - they focused on one OS. Without each team trying each OS, how can you be sure the result isn't skewed?

i.e. It's not a fair test


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RalphY
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 18:09
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Personally I don't really care all that much which is more secure, I have never had my computer hacked and that's all that matters to me .


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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 20:17
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Quote: "Personally I don't really care all that much which is more secure, I have never had my computer hacked and that's all that matters to me ."



That's how I feel! The only bad thing that's ever happened to my computer is a certain internet service decided to kill it...seriously. Luckily, nothing too important was lost in that crash, but it was still darned annoying!

My PC's never been hacked though.

Wait....what?
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Airslide
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 20:27
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Quote: "Sounds cool, But not exactly what i would class as intensive system use."


I never said it was. But at the moment I'm running Garry's Mod (which is pretty resource demanding itself), several Steam windows, two copies of Chrome (cause I'm an idiot and didn't realize it was opening another one instead of a tab ), an ftp program and a/v. Usually I run even more than that when I'm working on something major, yet I don't get the constant crashing you claim to receive. Your probably using hardware that Vista isn't fully compatible with or using poorly written applications. And saying hardware compatibility is Vista's fault is a poor argument, you don't expect parts from a Commodore 64 to work with Windows do you? Computers have to move on, even I've accepted that (and I do a lot of modding with old games like Wolf3D and Doom).

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Oolite
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 20:45
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I never understood why people run an AntiVirus scan in the background, surely its better to just leave it for an hour than have all your applications writing documents and files when its supposed to be scanning things for viruses.
At least, thats what i do.
I still only keep what i need open though, if i'm using garry's mod i sure as hell don't need an ftp program or several steam windows open. I just find my user experience nicer if i don't have a ton of applications running in the background which i'm not using.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 20:51
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Actually, about that contest, it gave a bit of a riot when it turned out that the Mac hacker actually had found out about the leak a few months before, but intentionally kept it quit for the hacking match. Since OSX is closed-source, nobody else had found out, I guess.

The power of Opensource is that so many people can search for exploits. That makes it both dangerous and safe.

Now, Mac virusses are starting to be spread through Mac Office - you can see Mac being increasingly attacked as its market share increases. The more popular an OS, the more you'll see it hacked, attacked and virus-prone.

And thanks to the moderators for making Apollo a more fun place. I guess we can still keep the pie and zeppelin, BiggAdd. Even though its only for a few days.


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AndrewT
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 21:09 Edited at: 31st Jan 2009 21:09
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The Vista laptop I'm on has only crashed once in the three years I've had it, and that was due to a faulty HDD. That's it. I've had Blender + GIMP + Firefox + UnrealEd/Sandbox 2 running with no crashes whatsoever. And my PC has crashed once or twice due to an overheating CPU, and that's it. I've never experienced any Vista-related crashes.

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David R
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 21:12
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Quote: "Now, Mac virusses are starting to be spread through Mac Office "


An install program which requests your password to install a trojan is far from what I'd call a security exploit/virus


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tha_rami
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 21:18
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Quote: "An install program which requests your password to install a trojan is far from what I'd call a security exploit/virus "

Seeing the fake sense of security Mac/Linux users are lulled into it, it's definitely a problem.


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David R
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 21:25 Edited at: 31st Jan 2009 21:30
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Quote: "Seeing the fake sense of security Mac/Linux users are lulled into it, it's definitely a problem."


Only if you're stupid enough to download an iWork torrent with a trojan as a payload, execute it and give it root permissions to your system.

It's not as if you can't check the contents of the package before installing, so I place bets that those infected were pretty dumb

EDIT: It does, however, point out that future security mechanisms need much better fine-grain control on what escalated permissions can do. Ideally, the installer should be 'locked' to the area of the file system where it does its work, rather than having free reign to the entire FS. That said, I'm not precisely sure what the trojan does once it executes, maybe it's just an app that's executed by the installer, so it inherits its permissions.


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tha_rami
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Posted: 31st Jan 2009 21:45
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Basically, it can install, but it cannot spread, yet. However, it is pretty well 'covered up' in the installer.

http://www.intego.com/news/ism0901.asp


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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 1st Feb 2009 01:34 Edited at: 1st Feb 2009 01:36
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To be quite honest, I think mac users get what they deserve when they get a virus. I in no way support virus-makers - they are total scum, but heck, I'm anti-mac, and have been ever since I had to use one for a year at an art class.

Sure, they have their cute simple looks. But they are un-customizable pieces of slow-performing junk. And they are expensive, too. I feel like I'm paying for a gold-plated cowpie. Yes, they load up photoshop fast. But when you try to play a game even made for OSX...
I love this site - http://www.mac-sucks.com/

Whatever, I'm a jerk. Microsoft isn't totally closed-source, in my opinion. Apple is - which is why they really piss me off.

Reed - this is the internet - if you go looking for people to be angry at, they will always be there. Accept differences, eh?

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Mr Z
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Posted: 1st Feb 2009 02:18 Edited at: 1st Feb 2009 02:27
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Get what they deserve? For using a specific OS?

EDIT:

That site seems as reliable as the site dedicated to how much Vista sucks.

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coolgames
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Posted: 1st Feb 2009 06:13
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Microsoft isn't forcing you to buy their OS. If windows is as bad as you're saying, then why on earth is it the dominant OS?
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bitJericho
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Posted: 1st Feb 2009 06:28
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Quote: "Microsoft isn't forcing you to buy their OS. If windows is as bad as you're saying, then why on earth is it the dominant OS? "


Only because Linux became usable to the common illiterates within the last year or two. I'm convinced within 10 years Linux, and particularly Ubuntu, is going to have Windows demolished.

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Alucard94
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Posted: 1st Feb 2009 10:29 Edited at: 1st Feb 2009 10:31
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Quote: "I think mac users get what they deserve when they get a virus."

I'm so sorry I use an OS that I like, please give me a virus.


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Mr Z
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Posted: 1st Feb 2009 10:54
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Quote: "Microsoft isn't forcing you to buy their OS. If windows is as bad as you're saying, then why on earth is it the dominant OS? "


Lets not forget MS is very good at business . Think they have a deal or something with most of the companys that makes computers to only use Windows... or something like that.

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David R
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Posted: 1st Feb 2009 12:48 Edited at: 1st Feb 2009 12:50
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Quote: "But when you try to play a game even made for OSX..."


Bioshock on max detail @ 1900x1200 runs perfectly on this 24" Mac. Sure, it's not an OS X game, but your argument of "slow performing" makes no sense. The OS X build of Spore runs perfectly too.

To add to this, so far OS X has the fastest boot time of any OS I've used - pretty much straight from white apple screen to usable
docks+desktop in a matter of seconds.

EDIT: People who hate Macs because they've used one slow-running Mac are pretty stupid. In the same way you get slow PCs and fast PCs, there is more than one Mac in the world, and the one you used was probably just a piece of junk. Don't make generalised observations after using one Mac

Quote: "Apple is - which is why they really piss me off. "


Apple isn't totally closed source, a lot of the kernel and basic system is based upon open source technology (e.g. Darwin/OpenDarwin)


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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 1st Feb 2009 15:48 Edited at: 1st Feb 2009 15:51
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Quote: "Get what they deserve? For using a specific OS?"


I know - it's crazy. I'm a jerk, but deep down inside that's how I feel.

The only reason I trust that site is because they post reference links everywhere.

But yeah, sorry for that. Mac users can be good people, but I just... hate macs. Not the people who use them, to clarify.

@poster before me -

If the game is optimized properly, it can run decently on a mac. In general though, macs are crappy in terms of speed.
The one I used was a relatively new imac - the pretty white ones.
Oh, and I HATE the one button mouses.

But please - I'm biased towards macs and I know it. In my opinion they are far inferior to nearly every other pc out there, and people aren't going to change it. Regard me as an ignorant idiot and let it go.

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David R
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Posted: 1st Feb 2009 16:06 Edited at: 1st Feb 2009 16:10
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Quote: "The one I used was a relatively new imac - the pretty white ones.
Oh, and I HATE the one button mouses.

But please - I'm biased towards macs and I know it. In my opinion they are far inferior to nearly every other pc out there, and people aren't going to change it. Regard me as an ignorant idiot and let it go."


The white ones are either

* 2006 iMacs (which makes them about 3 years old)

or

* an eMac (>= 3 years old, eMacs were made between 2002-2006)

Either way, you're using outdated tech.

Quote: "in general though, macs are crappy in terms of speed."


I can guarantee my iMac has a higher clock speed than your machine. I know that's not necessarily an indicator of higher (practical/real-world) speed, but it's still true


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bitJericho
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Posted: 1st Feb 2009 16:12
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Don't mac's use intel processors now? What's the point?

I'd just as soon hack a PC to run mac os than actually buy one

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David R
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Posted: 1st Feb 2009 16:16
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Quote: "Don't mac's use intel processors now? What's the point?"


I think the physical hardware is pretty damn good. The screen is brilliant to say the least

Quote: "I'd just as soon hack a PC to run mac os than actually buy one"


What's the point in that? One of the major advantages with an actual Mac, is that everything is bound together - the OS knows exactly what hardware your using, has the correct drivers etc. and it works flawlessly pretty much all the time

Using non-Mac hardware kind of destroys that though - you need to get Darwin-compatible hardware/drivers (unless you exactly match the iMac hardware or something).


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bitJericho
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Posted: 1st Feb 2009 16:19
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Quote: "Using non-Mac hardware kind of destroys that though - you need to get Darwin-compatible hardware/drivers (unless you exactly match the iMac hardware or something)."


The point is about 2/3rds or more off the price. It's worth it to find mac/darwin-compatible hardware.

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David R
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Posted: 1st Feb 2009 16:25
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Meh, seems stupid to me. Half the OS won't work properly, you need to emulate EFI on top of BIOS, and any software update will brick the entire install :/


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bitJericho
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Posted: 1st Feb 2009 17:08
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Quote: "and any software update will brick the entire install"


I've read that that's not an issue any longer. I dunno personally tho, cuz I wouldn't bother running a mac

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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 1st Feb 2009 17:40
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Quote: "I can guarantee my iMac has a higher clock speed than your machine. I know that's not necessarily an indicator of higher (practical/real-world) speed, but it's still true"


I guarantee that too. My PC is 5 years old.

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