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DarkBASIC Discussion / DarkNOOBS Project 3: Adventure Game

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BN2 Productions
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Posted: 7th Apr 2009 03:55
ehhh, seems like it would be more complex than just going with regular images to me.

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
That1Smart Guy
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Posted: 7th Apr 2009 03:57
maybe at first, but if we get the plan to work then we dont need to update the frame, loop animation would take care of it all

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BN2 Productions
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Posted: 7th Apr 2009 04:05
that is a big IF, as like I said, every time the program runs, the background sequence has the possiblity of changing. Besides, we can use a single function, and in the main loop we update each entities's location and frame image by passing its current one through the function.

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
That1Smart Guy
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Posted: 7th Apr 2009 04:08
ok, i c wat ur sayin, i didnt realize the maps change every run, just a thought tho

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BN2 Productions
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Posted: 7th Apr 2009 04:17
the maps won't, but lets say the entity will be walking towards the hero. The pattern the entity will take will change everytime it is played because it is based off of where the player chooses to go. There is no way we could reasonably use AVI's for that (unless we could generate them on the fly or made a BUNCH of avi's and swapped them out for each movement, in which case it would be better to just use images).

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
That1Smart Guy
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Posted: 7th Apr 2009 04:20
unless theres some way to set up a sprite like transparency on AVIs, which to my knowledge tere isnt, then ur right

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Latch
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Posted: 7th Apr 2009 04:48
Quote: "unless theres some way to set up a sprite like transparency on AVIs, which to my knowledge tere isnt, then ur right"

Monkey wrench in the machinery!

If you play or loop the animation on an offscreen bitmap, you can capture each frame as an image and paste it with a ,1 for transparency:

paste image <img>,<x>,<y>,1

But like BN2 said, you may be getting into more trouble than it's worth.

Enjoy your day.
That1Smart Guy
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Posted: 7th Apr 2009 04:59
not necessarily, if we put all the anims on bmp 2 (since bmp1 is our collision) then we'd only have to copy and paste once, the entire screen, if we do that it wouldnt b ne slower or more code intensive than one entity

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BN2 Productions
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Posted: 7th Apr 2009 07:25
more room for error, not to mention that it would screw up hero to entity collision.

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
Libervurto
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Posted: 7th Apr 2009 13:42
We'll be making an image-by-image animation routine for the main character right? So why not just use the same framework for all characters? What Latch suggests is carving up an avi file into images, so we may as well just use images in the first place.
Has anyone done any kind of animation or movement yet? I feel in a coding mood.

We had a discussion earlier about whether or not to use a 3D type collision system. I have realised that this is required if we want to have anything above floor level because in 2D the object's position is distorted (looks farther up the screen rather than in the air). If we implemented 3D type collisions we could have staircases and projectiles etc.

can't read?
BN2 Productions
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Posted: 7th Apr 2009 20:40
There was a basic animation tester done by ashingda a while back, though I don't know how much movement was incorporated.

For the collision system, I think I see what you are saying, but could you explain in a little more detail how it would work?

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
Quirkyjim
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Posted: 7th Apr 2009 23:40
i do not like the idea of using video animations (AVI's) to animate NPC's. Why should we? Why should we avoid something that we're doing already?

That's what they WANT you to think...
BN2 Productions
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Posted: 8th Apr 2009 00:10
It isn't that bad of an idea, had we decided to do it earlier. The benefit is that you don't need to work out timing in the program for the walking, you just take care of it in the avi. However, since we are already simply using images, we should stick to that for now.

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
Libervurto
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Posted: 8th Apr 2009 20:01
3D Space in a 2D World
Currently our game world works on two axes; width and depth. Although the y axis usually represents height, our map suggests that objects above others are deeper into the landscape, not necessarily above them.
Here lies the conflict; it is impossible to distinguish whether an object is high in the air or far away. We must set up a system for converting 3D coordinates into 2D so our collision system knows the difference between height and depth. Since we are looking head-on into the world without an iso-metric tilt this will be a simple amplification of height and depth. I'll work on an example in db and upload it tonight.

can't read?
BN2 Productions
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Posted: 8th Apr 2009 20:16
we could also have it set up in the map maker to specify if an object should be treated as above the hero. just an idea

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
That1Smart Guy
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Posted: 8th Apr 2009 23:00
right, but we couldnt tell whether that the object is above others or a few sqaures north and on the ground

im thinking the only way is to apply shading differently to above and out positionings

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BN2 Productions
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Posted: 8th Apr 2009 23:05
Well, if the tile is set in the map editor to be "above", then it is ignored for collision and placed above the hero.

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
That1Smart Guy
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Posted: 8th Apr 2009 23:08
yes but thats not the problem, if you think about a tile that is above the ground and set to be above a tile north of the middle, the only way to simulate height above ground is to bring it up a few pixels on the y axis, but this could make it confusing on whether it is above a tile or on the ground of the tile north of it

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BN2 Productions
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Posted: 9th Apr 2009 01:15
Not following the problem here.

Observe:




The "INN" sign is placed just like a normal tile, the difference between it and the building is that it is assigned as a tile that is above the hero, so on the left you can see that the hero is simply placed first then the sign on top of him to give the effect. There is no confusion there, it looks raised, and it seems as though it is.

Visually, it may be a bit ambiguous, but not enough to be a problem.

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
That1Smart Guy
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Posted: 9th Apr 2009 03:32
the "visually" part was the problem, but i think so long as we avoid placin random stuff into the sky, and keep it to logical stuff like this sign then well be fine

also, he 3d effect on that building still isnt perfect, is that going to be our final graphics setting or are we guna improve it?

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Libervurto
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Posted: 9th Apr 2009 04:14
Smartguy is just pointing out that theres no visible difference between height and depth, so we should use shadows to show indicate height. If there were no landmarks nearby (like an overhanging sign) there would be no indication of the players height/depth.

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Ashingda 27
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Posted: 9th Apr 2009 08:00
That can be done easily with an extra layer but seems that's not going to happen. >_>
Libervurto
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Posted: 9th Apr 2009 15:57
@Ashingda
It could? Tell us how.

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Ashingda 27
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Posted: 9th Apr 2009 18:03 Edited at: 9th Apr 2009 18:05
It's just as we were talking about befor, it's a matter of using layers, currently we are only using two layers for terrains. If we have an extra layer for the tiles with LAST priorities such as these, it will create this effect. Everything else will be drawn underneath it including characters.

My opinion is that the map editor should not be a walk in the park with automatic features and such, there should be more control as to what happens and what goes where and pointers should be used instead of actual data.
Libervurto
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Posted: 9th Apr 2009 18:32
Do you mean you'd have a separate layer for things that are in mid-air? Sounds a bit fiddly.
However we do the actual collisions we will need separate values for x/y/z positions.
You could alter your pixel collision to have different shades at different heights; so when a collision is detected it would check the shade and see if the colliding objects are at the same height and depth or just obscuring each other.

can't read?
Ashingda 27
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Posted: 9th Apr 2009 18:51 Edited at: 9th Apr 2009 18:52
I'm not sure what's so scary about layers, I've tested using 10 layers befor and it works fine.

We dont need height when using pixel collision, it's just what it is, it's just checking if the pointer will be allowed to go into an area or not. The collision data is first created manualy thus already giving control on height.

[edit]
I dont know if anyone's ran the example I post up but height is not a problem at all.
BN2 Productions
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Posted: 9th Apr 2009 20:10
For imaging, 10 layers is fine and in theory, 10 layers is fine. In practice: 10 layers at 100 tiles/layer=1000 tiles per tileset. Assuming that we have 1 tile set for every major location (cave, castle, town, house) that means 4000 tiles which is either 1) a lot of wasted tiles or 2)a lot of work for something pretty much useless.

Just make a generic shadow tile, we can place it in the game using the second layer (honestly, though I don't the necessity is there, but we can).

So, to sum up: layers aren't scary, they just multiply the amount of work. There is a saying I read in a programming book a while back:
"The best programmers are lazy. They try to get the most done with the least about of effort (actually, some prefer efficient rather than lazy)"

While we COULD do 10 layers, there would be a lot of of wasted work on both programming, media, and the source code (for every refresh of the screen it would have to check ever tile * the number of layers, not a problem for small maps, but a BIG one for big maps).

As far as the layers go, I would say that a 3rd layer, while in my mind is excessive, can be done for purely unimportant things (things that aren't going to be collided with). Any more than that and I think we are wasting time, energy, and talent.

@smartguy
Those screenshots are from RPG maker, as it is the easiest program I have to demonstrate what I was talking about. They aren't what our graphics will be like.

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
Ashingda 27
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Posted: 9th Apr 2009 20:57 Edited at: 9th Apr 2009 21:29
@BN2
We do not check the whole map, we only check at the array index of the layers that will apear on screen. It doesn't matter if it's a small map or super large one, it'll still be the same workload.

The only thing is it'll just take some more memory space for the arrays but that's not something to worry about.

This is what's used to draw the map layers. Variable z is the layers. Scrollx and scrolly act as pointers.


As you can see we only check 15*20 index out of each layers. To add an extra layer to this code we just change the 6 into 7.


[edit]
Here's a testing on layers speed. Press left and right to increase or decrease the amount of layers.
That1Smart Guy
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Posted: 9th Apr 2009 23:53
and once again were having a layer argument, WHEN WILL THE CHAOS END??!!?!!?!?

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Ashingda 27
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Posted: 10th Apr 2009 00:11
Quote: "WHEN WILL THE CHAOS END??!!?!!?!?"

I'd like to know that too.

Obese had to say:
Quote: "Tell us how"

And then it seems to have started all over again lol.
That1Smart Guy
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Posted: 10th Apr 2009 00:13
Quote: "
Quote: "WHEN WILL THE CHAOS END??!!?!!?!?"
I'd like to know that too.

Obese had to say:
Quote: "Tell us how"
And then it seems to have started all over again lol.
"


lol

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BN2 Productions
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Posted: 10th Apr 2009 00:26
How bout this:

We all work together to make a better map editor featuring these things:

Better resizing

Custom layer settings, where the same chipset is available for every layer and you can create as many layers as you see fit (within reason)

Map testing (maybe)

Full Entity support (maybe a little more full and featured than my entity editor)

Automatic collision image creation (pretty simple if you think about it)

Map Zooming (already have that in mine, but I still think it should remain in there).

Drawing tools (lines, boxes, circles, fill etc)

And, of course, anything else we can think of along the way

What are your guys' thoughts on this?

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
Ashingda 27
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Posted: 10th Apr 2009 03:20 Edited at: 10th Apr 2009 03:22
Well I suggested this on the darknoob pro thread, maybe I'll suggest here too.

My idea was that we each make our own versions of this project alongside the Team version, that way everyone participating gets a chance to code the whole project. If you get stuck refer to the Team version for help. Team version will be a compilation of all our codes handled by the manager.

If you created something useful it should already show in your version and it could be submited for the Team version.

We will share media, any new media create can be thrown into the Team version as well if needed.

We have to excersise coding neatly and efficiently, so we can read and share each other's codes. Will be forced to learn how to use REM wisely.

This will apply to the Mapmaker as well as the game itself.

Lastly ask lots of questions if need to.

Any thoughts?
Libervurto
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Posted: 10th Apr 2009 05:13
@BN2
I think you need to make a call on this issue, we are spending way too much time arguing about layers, it's better that we just get it done rather than bicker the fine details.

can't read?
BN2 Productions
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Posted: 10th Apr 2009 08:27
@obese
i agree. so this is my ruling:
i will say 1 more layer to use for decals. so the new layer breakdown:
1.terrain/buildings(only if they take the whole tile)
2.static objects such as fences, barels and trees
3.decals
4.entities.

i do want to remake the map maker with some help. caleb you still interested?

@ashingda:
i like the idea, though that might be a bit much for a project of this magnitude. next time though we should try to make it work.

@all:
i will post job listings soon, once i get off my dsi and get back to my comp.

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
Ashingda 27
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 06:09
can I dig into the mapmaker codes and put a scrolling feature into it?

The control I want to put in is Hold Space, Click and Drag with Mouse. That should scroll the map to allow editing of the whole map.
BN2 Productions
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Posted: 11th Apr 2009 08:17
sure but i kinda want to remake it. as it stands, revamping the code could require mass changes and re-coding

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
BN2 Productions
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Posted: 13th Apr 2009 05:26
Who all is in for this project? Just everyone post a shout out and I will delegate jobs.

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
t10dimensional
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Posted: 13th Apr 2009 06:58
i'm in hope I can help

im new at this
That1Smart Guy
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Posted: 13th Apr 2009 07:27
ill do wat i can

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Ashingda 27
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Posted: 13th Apr 2009 16:45
I'm in
Libervurto
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Posted: 13th Apr 2009 17:54
hello

can't read?
BN2 Productions
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Posted: 13th Apr 2009 19:51
Here are the job delegations as well as the to-do list for what needs doing after. Once you are done, it is posted and approved, you will be assigned a new job. Keep your part as a set of functions and/or subroutines. Please do a complete demo program though, that uses them as they are. That way we have something to test, and then we can take the subroutines and functions and plug them into the engine itself.

Engine:
-Movement system-includes map changes
-Collision
-Map Generation
-Combat
-Menu system

Media:
-Tilesets (we need a couple more. Ours now would be good for the generic fields, we need a dungeon, evil castle/keep, and general inside for shops/houses etc)
-Characters (generic people, the special items, Omun, special generic people, etc).
-Music (perhaps just the free ones that come with darkbasic)
-Sounds (see above)

@Ashingda, can you take on the tilesets? Try to get one or two more quickly, because I want you on collision as well, as you know how your collision code works.

@smartguy, I believe I asked you to do this before, sorry if you already finished it, but a well rounded world control system. By that I mean, make the hero able to move, change graphics (as that can happen), switch maps, accept input, etc. This will be our backbone so if you need help, let me know.

@razerx, lets see what you got. Work on the combat system. Remember, if you run into trouble, just ask us. Here are the factors it needs to include: strength of weapon, health of opponent, range of weapon/distance check, AOE check (AOE=Area of Effect, so if the weapon stabs, it will need to be more precise than if it swings, try to incorporate it as a single angle value).

@obese, Can you take the map generation system. I will leave it up to you how you want to do it, whether it is assemble the map once at the beginning as an image and then scroll it, assemble the screens-worth of tiles, or what have you. For the maps themselves. Outputting as an image is a possibility, though I wish it could be more of a text file (maybe even a saved array) that can be used to generate the file, rather than bloating our program with all of the maps as images. Once again, though, I leave it to your discretion.

Alright, we have a pretty good idea of where we are going with this, and remember people, ASK QUESTIONS!!!! Once you have completed your part, submit it (post it) and it will be evaluated. If it passes, we plug it into the engine itself and see if it works. If so, you are done and will get a new part to do.

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
Libervurto
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Posted: 13th Apr 2009 22:03 Edited at: 13th Apr 2009 22:30
I could write some music
I actually just wrote something we could use
I will record some things and upload them

PS everyone write really descriptive remarks on your code so it is easy to follow. Just on things like calculations that aren't totally obvious.

can't read?
BN2 Productions
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Posted: 13th Apr 2009 22:46
Good point on the comments Obese.

Do you want to do most/all of the music for the game? Note it won't be a whole lot, but if you are interested, that could be your main job.

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
Quirkyjim
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Posted: 13th Apr 2009 23:04
Don't forget me!

That's what they WANT you to think...
BN2 Productions
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Posted: 13th Apr 2009 23:10
@Quirky
How did I miss you? Your job: the menu system. Try to keep it on as few different screens as possible. Other than that, it must show your money, time spent playing, inventory, equipment (which doesn't have to be super exetensive, since it is an adventure game), and quest objective.

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
Quirkyjim
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Posted: 13th Apr 2009 23:20
So, in-game menu? Something like That1 did? Do you also want me to do the main menu/pause menu?

That's what they WANT you to think...
BN2 Productions
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Posted: 13th Apr 2009 23:30 Edited at: 13th Apr 2009 23:36
hmmm never got a chance to try out That1's oops. Let me check it out and I will get back to you as to what was done and needs to be done.

[edit]
I do remember that one now that I look at it. It seems to be a HUD, which we will probably use in game. However, the menu itself should probably give more options. Saving and loading, for instance, as well as selecting items to use.

Great Quote:
"Time...LINE??? Time isn't made out of lines...it is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round!" -Caboose
t10dimensional
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Posted: 14th Apr 2009 00:55 Edited at: 14th Apr 2009 00:58
Combat system?Not sure if i can do it,but I'll try my best.

Well,are you talking about the Final Fantasy type battleing?(i could do that with some hard work)

Or zelda(old one)type battles?(i don't even know where to start)

mayby you could sign someone over me or i could help with the next project because i've been doing projects of my own and my fourth one is coming up thats going to include a text battle system.(Not saying i don't have time just that i'm learning stuff from these projects of mine and after i'm done a bunch of projects i'll have learnd alot to be able to help.)

im new at this

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