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Geek Culture / EU wants MS to include competitors' web browsers

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Phaelax
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Posted: 24th Feb 2009 21:11 Edited at: 24th Feb 2009 21:15
They want Windows to have the install options for other browsers and ability to set which one is default. Far as I'm aware, you already have the ability to set a different browser as default.
http://www.euractiv.com/en/infosociety/eu-oblige-microsoft-offer-competitors-browsers/article-179602

And no other company in history I know of has ever had to include a competitor's product. I'm no MS fanboy, but I think this is complete BS.

And in other news, the "Vista-capable" lawsuit has lost class-action status.

[url="http://www.infopackets.com/news/business/microsoft/2009/20090223_vista_capable_lawsuit_loses_class_action_status.htm"]Federal judge Marsha Pechman decertified the class-action lawsuit, saying that plaintiffs had failed to show that consumers paid more for PCs with the 'Vista Capable' label than they would have otherwise."[/url]

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 24th Feb 2009 21:20
I believe there was already a thread concerning this.

Phaelax
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Posted: 24th Feb 2009 21:29
There was, but I don't think anything was official yet.

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Tom J
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Posted: 24th Feb 2009 21:32 Edited at: 24th Feb 2009 21:33
If you meant this thread, then I think that was something slightly different.

I think it is rubbish that the EU believe they can boss a company around, what MS do is their own business; and I see no problem with competition - an MS browser coming with an MS product seems just to me, even if some prefer 3rd party browsers.

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jezza
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Posted: 24th Feb 2009 21:41
They want MS to include multiple browsers by default? That's stupid. Personally I think ms should give up on ie and ship ff with windows, but thats not gonna happen. This is just unnecessary wasting of space.
Grandma
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Posted: 24th Feb 2009 21:46
Quote: "I think it is rubbish that the EU believe they can boss a company around"

Like companies don't boss politicians around enough. It's just fair it goes both ways. I'm not really concerned about this though. Seems like a very trivial thing to get worked up about. I'm more concerned about people dying and stuff than third party apps in an OS.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 24th Feb 2009 21:53
Will it have a huge impact on Window users? Nope. But the point is that we may see other companies start being forced to provide competitor product and that's the real issue there. I feel this is against a company's rights. Is it really so hard for others to simply goto Google with IE and type "Firefox"?

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Grandma
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Posted: 24th Feb 2009 22:05 Edited at: 24th Feb 2009 22:06
I understand the issue. For what it's worth I also don't believe MS should do this. It's not just any product we are talking about however. It's an OS which has a rather large userbase, if you will. That's why perhaps they figured why not make an exception for MS. I don't think it will be a stepping stone for others to do the same. Two wrongs don't equal a right.

We'll see how it turns out. In the meantime, I won't care that much.

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Anonymous User
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Posted: 24th Feb 2009 22:11
What about Apple, they only include safari with Mac OS, shouldn't they also offer alternatives.

???
ionstream
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Posted: 24th Feb 2009 22:32
Well they're not as successful in the market, so they shouldn't be punished yet.

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 24th Feb 2009 22:32 Edited at: 24th Feb 2009 22:32
Quote: "Well they're not as successful in the market, so they shouldn't be punished yet.
"

Hah, nice way of putting it. Touché

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 24th Feb 2009 22:47
They should be for that browser. Ever tried using it on a network? Scroll *pinwheel* click *pinwheel* scroll *pinwheel* type *pinwheel*.

Firefox seems far more tolerant of slow networks.

Jeku
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Posted: 24th Feb 2009 22:51
All we need right now are more governments getting into our business

Sid Sinister
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Posted: 24th Feb 2009 22:57
That's why I vote republican.

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Robert F
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Posted: 24th Feb 2009 22:57
If they are forced to do it, they should just include a .zip file for the installation hidden in the deep and dark windows folder. So no one will ever find it.


Chris K
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Posted: 24th Feb 2009 23:02
Quote: "All we need right now are more governments getting into our business"


Go and ask Iceland how laissez-faire Capitalism is working out

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Diggsey
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Posted: 24th Feb 2009 23:21
@Tom J
You live very near to where I live

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tha_rami
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Posted: 24th Feb 2009 23:46 Edited at: 24th Feb 2009 23:47
I feel the EU should start shipping without bullcrap instead of them forcing MS to start shipping bullcrap with their OS.

I'm getting so worked up about companies nowadays losing control of their work as soon as many people start using it. If I want to put in my OS' EULA that I will own everything you do on that PC, that's final.


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David R
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 00:02 Edited at: 25th Feb 2009 00:15
Quote: "If I want to put in my OS' EULA that I will own everything you do on that PC, that's final."


No, I believe that's actually beyond what an EULA can do, since what you're referring to would be a contract of adhesion (and an EULA with a clause like that would be overruled in court quicker than a whore's underwear falling down)

Quote: "All we need right now are more governments getting into our business"


The only solutions to the current economic situation are either a war, or government intervention. If you think the market will magically repair itself, you may want to read up on your history

EDIT:
Quote: "instead of them forcing MS to start shipping bullcrap with their OS."


Personally I consider their shipping of Windows with IE tied to it to be 'bullcrap', so either way, they're shipping bullcrap, EU or no EU


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ionstream
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 00:10
Quote: "Go and ask Iceland how laissez-faire Capitalism is working out "


Well that and late 19th century America, but theres a middle ground though dude.

tha_rami
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 00:41
Quote: "Personally I consider their shipping of Windows with IE tied to it to be 'bullcrap', so either way, they're shipping bullcrap, EU or no EU"

There's no OS that comes without a browser. Sure, IE is tightly integrated, but hey, you can always move to Linux or Mac if you dislike that. I'm all for fair competition, but there's rules and there's nonsense.

If the EULA can't do that, I feel the EULA needs more power.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 13:19 Edited at: 25th Feb 2009 13:21
Perhaps a 'please Mr Microsoft man' should have been enough.

If the EU is concerned about people using Internet Explorer, which can be some people's downfall, hence after removing viruses from a friends computer I downloaded him Firefox and told him to never use IE again because it isn't quite up to standards, then they should raise the awareness of alternative browsers.

I can see the EU's concern, they probably don't feel users are safe as they should be when using IE in comparison to alternative browsers, this would probably explain why they're doing it to Microsoft and not Apple, Safari (which I am using to type this message) is much more stable. Lets be honest IE isn't an idiot-proof solution to the internet, a lot of internet users aren't geeks like us and probably don't have a clue about safe browsers.


However, do they need to force MS into providing alternatives? I'm not entirely against it, I don't think it's right that they should force anything, but I think the better solution is to inform users instead, make it more known that IE isn't the safest browser for the net and that downloading alternatives is easy as ABC in this 'step by step guide'. But then is it worth EU funding?



But as Grandma said, it's only a small issue to be concerned with, and the sam with the EU, they have bigger fish to fry than dealing too much into browsers...or at least I hope.

tha_rami
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 16:14
Quote: "I can see the EU's concern, they probably don't feel users are safe as they should be when using IE in comparison to alternative browsers, this would probably explain why they're doing it to Microsoft and not Apple, Safari (which I am using to type this message) is much more stable. Lets be honest IE isn't an idiot-proof solution to the internet, a lot of internet users aren't geeks like us and probably don't have a clue about safe browsers."

Windows is designed as idiot-proof OS.


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David R
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 17:33 Edited at: 25th Feb 2009 17:39
Quote: "There's no OS that comes without a browser"


I didn't say that - I said tied. If you install a Linux distrib with Firefox, you can remove Firefox. I believe it's even possible to remove Safari from OS X if you want to. But surprise surprise, it's not possible with IE

Quote: "but hey, you can always move to Linux or Mac if you dislike that"


I have thanks, Windows is a sinking ship in my opinion, so I jumped to Mac. The "progress" made from XP -> Vista did not appeal to me, and XP is just starting to age a bit (in terms of getting it up to spec after a clean install). Initially investing in a mac was a bit risky, but it seems (to my surprise) that Mac users have been enjoying a far superior OS for quite a while now


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Benjamin
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 18:03
Quote: "Initially investing in a mac was a bit risky, but it seems (to my surprise) that Mac users have been enjoying a far superior OS for quite a while now"

Yes, ever since Boot Camp was created.

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 18:18
Quote: "I said tied. If you install a Linux distrib with Firefox, you can remove Firefox. I believe it's even possible to remove Safari from OS X if you want to. But surprise surprise, it's not possible with IE"


But why would you want to? I'm a religious firefox user, but I would never consider removing IE - it's the only other browser on my machine, what would I do if firefox failed?

David R
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 18:43
Quote: "Yes, ever since Boot Camp was created. "


Nice joke, but unfortunately it doesn't make sense in context (If I've been using Windows previously, and I switch to Mac, why would I consider the OS that Mac users are using to be superior if it is the same as my previous OS? Joke fail)


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Benjamin
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 18:48
I don't know, you're the one that implied Windows is superior to Mac.

David R
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 18:59
I wouldn't create and defeat my own inference - besides, your original post makes no sense at all unless that was your implication (under what other circumstances does Boot Camp actually make OS X superior, considering it only does one thing: run Windows?)


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Benjamin
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 19:04
Way to go completely twisting my sentences around. It doesn't matter, I have no time to debate with those that believe IE should be bundled with Mac.

Grandma
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 19:07
Every OS has their strengths and weaknesses. It's just a matter of using the one that has the strenghts that you need. Windows is superior to me because blablabla, but Mac is superior to other people because of blablabla.

BLABLABLA!

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David R
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 19:09 Edited at: 25th Feb 2009 19:10
Quote: "Way to go completely twisting my sentences around. It doesn't matter, I have no time to debate with those that believe IE should be bundled with Mac."


3/10

I've seen much better Benjamin-isations before, but that was really poor. They work best when they follow a logical flow/actually make sense - work on your technique and come back next year. Next!


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Benjamin
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 19:13


On topic though, I think it's a ridiculous decision. I agree that IE shouldn't be tied to the system like it is, but to have to actually include competitor software in the Windows installation seems stupid.

Jeku
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 19:34 Edited at: 25th Feb 2009 19:43
Quote: "The only solutions to the current economic situation are either a war, or government intervention. If you think the market will magically repair itself, you may want to read up on your history"


Oh yes, I forgot--- only a $780 billion stimulus plan will magically repair the market. Woo-hoo

EDIT:

I just realized that I said nothing about the economic situation in my original post. You may want to do some "reading up" yourself, starting with this thread.

EDIT 2:

Quote: "Go and ask Iceland how laissez-faire Capitalism is working out"


I haven't read up on Iceland's situation, but I know about the US and Canada's situation (Canada not doing nearly as bad). Government intervened in passing law requiring banks to give subprime loans, which helped start the ball rolling.

Nationalizing the banking, automobile, mortgage industries are *not* the right things to do, in my opinion.

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 19:43
Actually, Safari is pretty integrated with OS X in some ways. The Webkit engine that Safari is merely a frontend for is used in many applications. Quite similar to Windows in that respect.

Browser and OS integration should be illegal.

David R
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 19:48
Quote: "I just realized that I said nothing about the economic situation in my original post. You may want to do some "reading up" yourself, starting with this thread."


So what's "Right now" referring to exactly? If you don't clarify then don't be surprised when your posts are misinterpreted


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 20:13
Quote: "Windows is designed as idiot-proof OS."


Designed to, but I still see users messing it up, or finding something too complicated or are unaware of something. For internet purposes, something idiot proof would mean somebody who may end up on a dodgy website (it can be accidental...especially for the group of perverts out there) is protected...okay without an AV, they're not protected, but Firefox and other browsers offer superior protection to IE. Firefox makes it less likely for somebody to download the virus in the first place.

So though Windows is meant to be idiot proof, it's browser in comparison to its competitors isn't.

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 20:24
I hope that IE9 is merely a rebadge of something else.

Mr Z
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 20:46
Quote: "But why would you want to? I'm a religious firefox user, but I would never consider removing IE - it's the only other browser on my machine, what would I do if firefox failed?"


Then don´t uninstall it, the point is that there should always be a choice, at last with something like a webbrowser. Not important enough for the function of the OS to be bundled that close. Besides, not being able to choose to remove IE is limiting your freedom.

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
Insert Name Here
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 20:51
Quote: "Besides, not being able to choose to remove IE is limiting your freedom."
That's one way of looking at it, but it's also a way of protecting new users from being left without a browser. The fact that you can't remove it makes so little difference to any other user that it's a pointless argument.

David R
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 21:00 Edited at: 25th Feb 2009 21:02
Quote: "but it's also a way of protecting new users from being left without a browser
"


Why do you need to protect new users from being left without a browser? Windows doesn't protect new users from viruses, or a hell of a lot of other things - why is Windows suddenly 'protecting' anything?

Besides, last time I looked, there are a million and one ways to reinstall other built-in Windows apps (from install Windows disk/Add remove components, system restore etc.) so why does IE need special 'protection' exactly?


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Mr Z
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 21:02
Quote: "That's one way of looking at it, but it's also a way of protecting new users from being left without a browser. The fact that you can't remove it makes so little difference to any other user that it's a pointless argument."


With that logic, the best system is locked down. I do not agree, there exist better ways to prevent a novice user from screwing up.

It is not a pointless argument, some of us just want to have the freedom to choose what software we have installed, no matter if we will use it or not. I would propobly not remove IE, need it for a few things (my bank does not support Firefox very well), but I would want to be able to if it came to that.

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
Insert Name Here
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 21:15 Edited at: 25th Feb 2009 21:17
A simple web search comes up with 8,140,000 results for remove internet explorer.

Quote: "Why do you need to protect new users from being left without a browser? Windows doesn't protect new users from viruses, or a hell of a lot of other things - why is Windows suddenly 'protecting' anything?"

Because if a user does not have a browser he is unable to rectify the problem without buying a new browser or getting one of a disk. Anti virus programs can easily be downloaded for free.

David R
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 21:18 Edited at: 25th Feb 2009 21:22
You can remove it, but hundreds of parts of Windows won't work correctly without it (I think Windows Explorer itself depends upon IE's rendering engine)

EDIT:
Direct quote from one of the guides

Quote: " Except, getting rid of IE is not that easy. In fact, with later versions of Windows there's no satisfactory way of removing it completely without risking crippling Windows itself.

That hasn't stopped folks from trying to remove IE, however, and you can find several techniques documented on various web sites. Instead of removing IE I favor the simple and safer approach of disabling it. Sure, it may not provide the same degree of security as complete removal but that's a small price to pay compared to the cost of potentially de-stabilizing Windows. "



EDIT 2:
Quote: "Anti virus programs can easily be downloaded for free."


Risking getting a worm /virus by going on the net and downloading applications And the add/remove components works without a disk, so if IE worked in this way, what you're saying about the potential "no browser" risk is irrelevant


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 21:24 Edited at: 25th Feb 2009 21:28
Allow IE to be deleted (I don't like it when IE has to open for a program instead of my default browser), yet have a copy of the installer built in to the OS, that way you don't have the program laying around as a potential problem.

For an example, I let a friend use my laptop to check her plane times and when I got back I found that she was using Internet Explorer 7...she was also stressing that she was having problems with it (she is an IE 6 user normally) and all of the problems were solved when I opened Firefox for her.

Mr Z
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 21:56
Quote: "A simple web search comes up with 8,140,000 results for remove internet explorer."


None of them is as easy as just uninstalling VLC, for example, and you risk breaking other parts of the OS while doing so (at last what I have heard, do not know that much about it).

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
Tom J
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 22:49
Quote: "Seems like a very trivial thing to get worked up about
"


True, true; from a customer standpoint it doesn't matter really - but it's still going to be annoying for MS.

Quote: "You live very near to where I live
"


... ok I'll take your word for it, how near is "very near"?

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Diggsey
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 23:12 Edited at: 25th Feb 2009 23:13
Well, the next road along from mine is called 'Essex road', although technically, I live just outside of Essex.

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Tom J
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Posted: 25th Feb 2009 23:25
Oh ok, very sneaky I used to live in Harold Wood about 7 years ago, that being in the sort of just-outside-Essex area too.

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Mr Z
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Posted: 26th Feb 2009 00:08
Quote: "I'll take your word for it, how near is "very near"?"


Hey, I also live where near you... in an astronomical scale!

(Well, jokes aside, our countries are not that distant from each others, though.)

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.

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