Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Geek Culture / Proposed law, new warning label for games

Author
Message
Alucard94
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Jul 2007
Location: Stockholm, Sweden.
Posted: 26th Apr 2009 16:43
Oh please, any kid with something correct in their mind will realize that games are meant to entertain, not to make you want to go out and stab someone bloody with a knife. Most of my friends and myself to some extent grew up cutting peoples head off with katanas in GTA and such and such, and seeing as we do have something in between our ears we actually don't do it in real life. I mean it is rather hard getting a katana these days isn't it?
Yes a lot of people tend to enjoy cutting someone's head off with a knife and then shooting the corpse, why? Because they can't actually do that sort of thing in real life, it makes it more fun.


Alucard94, the member of the future of the past.
mamaji4
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location:
Posted: 26th Apr 2009 16:56 Edited at: 2nd May 2009 08:12
1

If at first you don't succeed, relax. You're like the rest of us.
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 26th Apr 2009 17:43
We already have legislation to do with games:

Warning this game contain themes of violence and gore.

Games, like films are rated too (like '18' meaning, this should be bought by or for '18' year olds) and if a parent isn't going to pay attention to those, how can you be sure that they will suddenly change because of a new warning?

It will not be a minute step in the right direction, because like I said the emphasis is unbalanced, this I think is a minute step in the wrong direction for that reason. If you draw more attention to upbringing and parenting, then you're taking a step in the right direction. If a parent bans their kid from playing a violent video game, then the problem's not solved - Darth Kiwi made the point that they'd seek something else. And it's not the game that makes them unstable. I think keeping making the wrong emphasis will only ignore some of the underlying issues further.

Your signature has been erased by a mod - Please reduce it to 600x120 maximum size
mamaji4
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location:
Posted: 26th Apr 2009 18:26 Edited at: 2nd May 2009 08:08
,

If at first you don't succeed, relax. You're like the rest of us.
Chenak
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 13th Sep 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 26th Apr 2009 18:46 Edited at: 26th Apr 2009 18:48
You still don't get those labels on books which cause far more violent and pointless deaths. Why ONLY apply this to video games.

WARNING: Excessive exposure to violent video games and other violent media has been linked to aggressive behavior.

This warning to me seems extremely pointless. I doubt the parents who completely ignore the rating system will pay much attention to that warning. I will never agree to it unless it is attached to all forms of media which have an equal or greater chance of influencing violence.

Quote: "That in my opinion, is a step in the right direction. Educating the parent to make an informed decision."


Except the parents should have enough brain cells between them to understand their 8yo child maybe shouldn't see a movie rated 18.

Quote: "pass legislation that restricts the amount of mindless violence you can put in the games"


There is, its called the rating system. We don't need more laws like that.

Quote: "Isn't stopping you're kids from doing something wrong an essential part of parenting, unless you're saying its wrong to stop kids from playing excessively and un-necessarily violent games"


Wow... urm when have kids ever listened to direct orders from parents after 7yo. Seriously just saying "NO you can't do this" if they enjoy the said activity doesn't work after a certain age, they will continue to do it behind your back at their friends house or something completely unsupervised. Hence why upbringing and parenting is far more important than saying no to violent video games.

Simply saying "OK, don't play it too much and make sure you get out once in a while" is far better. I would add "and make sure you don't copy the game and kill everyone" but I imagine when I have kids they will have more common sense than dead goat (and I would have taught them the difference between real and not real).
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 26th Apr 2009 19:23
I'm really tempted to say something controversial involving books and violence, but I'd accidentally offend too many people and break the AUP.

But Mamaji, the fact the current warning is ignored, are people going to listen to one that's worded differently.


But I don't think saying 'no' to video games is going to be the soluton either - we can teach parents to do that but I don't see it pushing us in the right direction. We need to tell the parents to look after their kids, not to spoil them, not to replace love with something material, not to cause unstable backgrounds for their kids, to think about their kids when they make decisions, to listen to them, to talk to them and not to detah themselves from having a good relationship. Give your children a decent childhood. If they're getting bullied help them deal with it, but not make it worse in the process. They should also tell schools to step up on bullying, support their resources in doing so. Maybe having the parents teach their kids too and help them learn.

Your signature has been erased by a mod - Please reduce it to 600x120 maximum size
AlexI
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 31st Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posted: 26th Apr 2009 19:25 Edited at: 26th Apr 2009 19:26
mamaji4
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location:
Posted: 26th Apr 2009 19:30 Edited at: 2nd May 2009 08:13
"

If at first you don't succeed, relax. You're like the rest of us.
mamaji4
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location:
Posted: 26th Apr 2009 19:39 Edited at: 2nd May 2009 08:13
2

If at first you don't succeed, relax. You're like the rest of us.
Matt Rock
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 26th Apr 2009 21:48
Instead of everyone spending their energy in this thread, we should all be writing letters to the office of Representative Baca that condemn this bill and inform him that he's only going to alienate his gamer constituents in California moreso than he already has with his past failed bills.

For every study someone can show me that says video games have harmful or negative effects, I can find three studies that say otherwise, and those will come from more reputable sources to boot. Parents needs to stop whining about how hard parenting is, and stop trying to find scapegoats for the bad behavior of their children. If your kid is THAT impressionable, that they take queues from a GAME, then guess what? You've sheltered your kid too much, and your parenting = epic fail. That, or your kid has some serious mental problems, and instead of finding treatment, you're looking for a cause, one that goes beyond chemical imbalance or deep psychological trauma. And if that's the case, your parenting = epic fail, still. Put down the parenting books and start interacting with your kids? Is that hard? No? I thought so. And if that offends someone, good, we can weed out the bad parents that way.

Warning: Excessive exposure to violent video games and other violent media has been linked to aggressive behavior by terrible parents who don't pay attention to what their kids are up to.

And another thing... the proposed label says "other violent media." Is he going to insist on similar labels for violent movies, comic books, toys, novels, newspaper articles, television shows, etc.? No, he won't. You know why? Because those industries all have lobbyists, and those lobbyists have money. Welcome to the world, folks. We need the likes of EA and Activision-Blizzard to dole out the Benjamins if we hope to fight legislation like this, and by Benjamins, I don't mean an army of sarcastic, witty cats, either.

mamaji4
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location:
Posted: 26th Apr 2009 23:29
Quote: " and by Benjamins, I don't mean an army of sarcastic, witty cats, either.
"


Har,har
I wonder what Benjamin has to say about all this.

If at first you don't succeed, relax. You're like the rest of us.
Zdrok
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 19th Dec 2006
Location: Pittsburgh
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 00:04
Probably something sarcastic and witty.

Darth Kiwi
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Jan 2005
Location: On the brink of insanity.
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 01:12
Quote: "So I've come to the conclusion that this is one of those problems that has no clear solutions because all the people involved are sitting on different sides of the fence."


Well, if we summarise the current system (at the risk of stating the obvious)

1) Companies make games. They want to sell lots of copies. They may make these games violent to appeal to a demographic - however, putting too much gore in will push up the rating, lessening their customer base. If they go too far they might even get an AO rating, which means they'll probably sell very few copies.

2) The game is rated. The more gore, violence etc. the higher the rating.

3) The game is bought. The kid doesn't care about the rating: they care about the game. (I mean, that's only natural: they don't play games so they can feel good about how obedient they are to the ratings system!) The kid may be refused at the point of sale because they're too young, of course.

4) They get it home and Mom walks in and says "WHAT are you playing? WHAT is that? Is that BLOOD?" and promptly switches off the console and confiscates the game.

So there are three limiting factors: the danger of putting in too much gore, refusing to sell the children, and the role of the parent. The first is not too important in the grand scheme of things but does at least indicate that it's not simply a case of "blood = money". The second is fairly important and I think it's good that it's implemented. But it is the role of the parent which is, perhaps, most important. It's not easy for a parent to say that their child can't have the latest thing that they really want, but it's a decision that they all have to come to their own judgements on. (If a parent decides, by the way, that it's okay for their 14 year old son to play an 18, then that's really their business. It would be wrong, I think, to deny them the right to make that choice.) And if a parent doesn't realise that an 18 game may not be suitable for their 7 year old child, then the child is probably antisocial for reasons other than that of the game. This would not be the fault of the developers.

I'm not really sure if this legislation would have any effect anywhere, though. If the kid buys the game on their own, it would have no effect. If the parent buys it for the kid, I think the large, red "18" emblem would be enough to make them reconsider, label or no label. (Video games have enough of a presence in scare-stories that parents would no doubt already know that some of these things are violent, and can come to their own conclusions on that, without requiring a label.) Of course, another problem with this proposal is that it tars all games with any kind of violence with the same brush: if anything, it sounds like it lumps together Manhunt with Deus Ex and Broken Sword, which would actually isolate the public image of video games further, and put them all in even more of a "violence bin", so to speak. Not to mention that the actual wording "has been linked to violent behaviour" is not entirely suitable (I mean, Nietszche has been linked to eugenics but that doesn't mean he would ever have approved of it), plus, of course, it would probably cost a fair bit to put these labels on.

Secretary of Unknowable Knowledge for the Rock/Dink administration '08
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Apr 2005
Location: The Fifth Plane of Oblivion
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 01:16 Edited at: 27th Apr 2009 01:17
Quote: "Mom walks in and says"


Except they don't. My father after his divorce dated a woman who let her eight year old son play GTA, The Warriors, Manhunt, you name it. My father brought her up on this to no avail.

See, the truth is that some parents are too lazy to bring up their children. They frankly don't give a ****.

mamaji4
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location:
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 01:58 Edited at: 2nd May 2009 08:14
3

If at first you don't succeed, relax. You're like the rest of us.
Chenak
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 13th Sep 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 02:20 Edited at: 27th Apr 2009 02:24
Quote: "Yeah. One more step in the right direction. Or are you suggesting you don't put the warning on video games just because you haven't put it on the books."


Urm both I guess. There is no point on placing it on video games if all other forms of media remain untouched. So either all or nothing.

Quote: "The rating system allows you to put as much gore as you please and then informs the people about the dangers of that gore. It is not a pre-emptive measure that prevents the insertion of gore into games."


Wrong, see manhunt 2. That game was censored due to being over the top with sex and violence. But I'm guessing from the way you worded that your after an outright ban of violence and gore so thats not enough for you.

Quote: "And that would work far better and they wouldn't "continue to do it behind your back at their friends house or something completely unsupervised." considering "when have kids ever listened to direct orders from parents after 7yo.""


Yes it would work far better. Whats your point? Telling them not to kill people is completely different to suggesting them not to play on a computer game quite so often, assuming the parent has taught the child any morals and sense of reality whatsoever.

Quote: "And a mentally disturbed child would then not carry out an act of mindless violence after the game companies have conditioned his mind to kill and mutilate."


Common sense would dictate a mentally ill child should not play video games of this nature. Nor should they listen to certain music, watch certain films or interact with certain people. If they are truly that mentally ill then they shouldn't interact with society without strict supervision anyway since anything could set them off.

Quote: "I'm really tempted to say something controversial involving books and violence, but I'd accidentally offend too many people and break the AUP."


Me too, video games are nothing compared to what these books have caused yet video games seem to be getting the blame purely due to some high profile incidents and people trying to make money from suing games companies.

Quote: "pure manipulation of statistical evidence by the gaming lobby"


Wow... proof please? The gaming lobby doesn't have much influence over anything haha
mamaji4
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location:
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 02:43 Edited at: 2nd May 2009 08:15
4

If at first you don't succeed, relax. You're like the rest of us.
mamaji4
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location:
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 02:45 Edited at: 2nd May 2009 08:15
5

If at first you don't succeed, relax. You're like the rest of us.
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 03:08
If we're talking about gaming influence over violence, then perhaps review my crime statistics I posted, since 1991 crime's gone down - if games were an influence then you wouldn't expect such a drop, unless you want to suggest that crime shot down a lot faster, for violent crime to shoot up.

Luckily the source I provide cut down the crime rates into crime types:

Violent crime: 1991 - 1,911,770
2007 - 1,408,337

Violent crime, it seems has also gone down.

It sounds to me as though it'd be difficult to say video games are causing more crime as it has been going down. (The reason I chose 1991 was because going down from 2007, 1991 was the highest before going back down again overall)

We can't tell how much is gaming related, but then you can't claim it's gaming related everytime somebody says "GTA made me do it". But it should show how crime has beem in the US since 1991 and you can see that games haven't had a large influence on adding figures if any.

But I wonder if what some people have argued is true, that gaming is a good way to relax and get stress relief from the stresses of day to day life is true or even keeps kids off of the street away from gang culture. Perhaps a converse argument could be formed on that basis, saying that perhaps video games reduce crime. But a study would have to be made if one doesn't already exist.

Your signature has been erased by a mod - Please reduce it to 600x120 maximum size
Chenak
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 13th Sep 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 03:14 Edited at: 27th Apr 2009 03:16
Quote: "The sort of people who enjoy the act of blowing people up in front of a gaming console."


So are you taking pot shots at people who enjoy violent video games now?

Quote: "Do you even know what morals consist of"


Yes thank you. I can also tell the difference between fiction and reality.

Quote: "Do I have to take your word for it or do you have supporting evidence."


You have stated something completely ridiculous that demands proof. I haven't seen evidence of the gaming lobby doing anything related to ratings, statistics and laws other than copyright and minor things in conjunction with other forms of media.
Matt Rock
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 03:21
Quote: "Just tell the game companies to stop making games with all that gore. Wait for their reply. That should tell you without a doubt whether or not blood = money"

Why should the game industry need to stop making games with gore? Are you going to insist the same of movies, comic books, and novels? Are you going to tell musicians that they aren't free to express themselves while you're at it?

Mamaji4, I challenge you to a duel. Go find me a study, right now, that shows that games have a negative impact of any kind on people of sound body and mind. You more than likely won't, unless you bend your interpretation of the phrase "negative impact." But if you do, I'll link three studies that say the opposite. Three studies for every one of yours.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with enjoying violence in games, or any other sort of media for that matter. And if you think it's a recent phenomena, violence in media, then think again. Ever read Shakespeare? Ever listen to old blues singers from the 1930's and 1940's? There are scenes in Upton Sinclair's novel "The Jungle" that would make the creators of Manhunt vomit. Even the bible had some extremely vivid depictions of violence... should we slap a warning on that as well?

The bottom line is that we have ratings systems, and those are designed to tell parents everything they need to know about the content in a game. In the US it's the ESRB rating, and in England it's the PEGI rating. It says "M - Mature" right on the cover of the box, and if the parent was feeling really ambitious, they could flip the box over, and wham, a listing of all the bad content in the game. Why should the game industry be required to label games beyond that?

If anti-violence advocates spent as much time educating parents on how the ESRB works as they do slamming games and making up rediculous (yes, rediculous) claims that video games make people violent, then guess what? This debate would be non-existent. A parent needs to be genuinely stupid to not be able to interpret the ratings system. So stupid, in fact, that they'd be clearly unfit to raise children. But this isn't an issue of smart versus stupid... it's an issue of lazy versus not. Parents don't put forth any effort whatsoever to understand what their kids are doing, let alone the ratings system for the game industry.

Let me ask you this. If some moron kid drinks Drain-O, what should we do?
(A) Take the kid from his unfit parents, or at least educate the moron parents of the dangers of Drain-O
(B) Ban Drain-O, or demand that its contents be made consumable by humans

Answer me that, then tell me the game industry should be forced to stop putting adult content in games that ARE AIMED AT ADULTS.

Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 03:26 Edited at: 27th Apr 2009 03:29
[Edit]

I wouldn't mind seeing a duel. We could place bets and charge people for popcorn.

Your signature has been erased by a mod - Please reduce it to 600x120 maximum size
Matt Rock
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 03:46 Edited at: 27th Apr 2009 03:47
Just for the sake of interesting reading
Study #1
Study #2
Study #3

And just because I'm killing some time before my girlfriend gets home...
Study #4
Study #5
Study #6

And those are all just behavioral! When I have some more free time I'll go dig up some articles about cognition, dexterity, hand-eye coordination, problem solving, mathematics... seriously, there have been hundreds of studies on video games that show positive results in a very wide spectrum of schools. Of course, all it ever takes is one study that claims games are bad to cause an arguement.

And more interesting stuff to read about: Article that covers multiple studies showing benefits of gaming on the whole.

Herakles
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Mar 2009
Location: Lost in my own head
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 03:50
If you look at any of the countless school shootings where some teen kills all his classmates, you'll see that in almost every case the kid's been on anti depressant drugs. No person in their right mind would commit a mass killing, but teens (by the very definition of adolescence) are not in their right minds. If you add and bad parenting into the mix, you get one really screwed up kid and probably a school shooting. This has absolutely nothing to do with violence in games.

I've been raised on action movies, video games, heavy metal music, all that stuff. My parents have taught me to think morally and rationally, so I can seperate fiction from reality. I have absolutely no desire to go out and kill innocent people just to imitate the movies, games, and music that I've been raised on.

Swordfight! My cheesy little first game!
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=147808&b=36
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 03:58 Edited at: 27th Apr 2009 04:02
Matt Rock, I'm so bookmarking those.

The second one sounds like a good summary.

Your signature has been erased by a mod - Please reduce it to 600x120 maximum size
Lemonade
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Dec 2008
Location:
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 05:40
Quote: "and if the parent was feeling really ambitious, they could flip the box over, and wham, a listing of all the bad content in the game"


That's exactly what it is: bad.

The reason why you find so many arguments against the negative impact of violent games is that most people love blood and gore. Naturally that means there will be fewer studies showing otherwise.

What about when computer graphics become photo-realistic? How far will people take this until they stop? I don't think they will stop. As games gradually get worse and worse, people will accept them more and more until today's M rated games will be ESRB E10+.

Check out my tech blog below!
http://cooltech-sciencelab.blogspot.com/
Uncle Sam
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Jul 2005
Location: West Coast, USA
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 06:15 Edited at: 27th Apr 2009 09:43
EDIT: better to remove this than start a huge arguement like the one that almost escalated below.

Vorg1
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 07:21 Edited at: 27th Apr 2009 07:24
Why are people making COD5 sound like a Cannibal Corpse song BLOOD,BLOOD,BLOOD, And MORE Buckets of BLOOD . It really isn't that bad. There is always the option to "turn gore off". If you ban everything that is harmful to a kid( biking,swimming, walking, running, driving, skateboarding, rollerblading, tv, internet, thumbtacks, sewing needles, sparklers, or anything the world would be a boring place for adults.

Quote: "You're blood-thirsty... something is wrong with you"


thanks for making 95% of the US sound like complete psychos. My girlfriend is very religous and she'll even play Halo and COD5.


Vorg1

Check out Urban Soldier:Requiem
Black Rebel Heart
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Jul 2007
Location:
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 08:03
if COD5 is like a Cannibal Corpse song then it must not be very gory.
Uncle Sam
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Jul 2005
Location: West Coast, USA
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 08:26 Edited at: 27th Apr 2009 08:26
Quote: "thanks for making 95% of the US sound like complete psychos. My girlfriend is very religous and she'll even play Halo and COD5."


Define very religous? Being "very religous" doesn't really have anything to do with it.

Quote: "It really isn't that bad."


^ This is what scares me. ^

Vorg1
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 09:23 Edited at: 27th Apr 2009 09:24
Quote: "if COD5 is like a Cannibal Corpse song then it must not be very gory"
.
I was just trying to come up with something else that caused a lot of controversy and it was the first thing that came to mind.

Quote: "Define very religous? Being "very religous" doesn't really have anything to do with it."


I am saying she is very devoted christian who holds her morals very high. And I believe you are the same way Uncle Sam which is no means an insult. I respect all peoples faith and ideas.

Quote: "^ This is what scares me. ^"


You have your ideas I have mine I think i am going to shut up on this topic now because it is just getting old. Everyone has there own morals and beliefs that they will follow and agree with. You have yours I have mine. To me video games should be the least of worries. to someone else it may be different. I will respect it. And I hope I have sounded like a complete savage beast because i am not. Just a normal dude like everyone else on these forums.


Vorg1

Check out Urban Soldier:Requiem
Uncle Sam
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Jul 2005
Location: West Coast, USA
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 09:31 Edited at: 27th Apr 2009 09:45
Hey sorry, didn't mean to be rude. If you noticed the "/rant", it was because I felt inspired to write a long, witty post. I guess I just can't see it your way no matter how hard I try because I've seen the game and just can't believe it! Well, I can see what you're saying and understand your opinion, but I just can't accept it. But like you said, I can't impose my beliefs on you and I do respect your beliefs. I was trying to not link this to Christianity (I am a Christain) because of the rules, and the controversy it would cause, but simply to the fact that it just seems inhumane to me. But also like you said, we should probably drop this because there's no hope of resolving it.

Vorg1
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 09:38
Thanks. No hard feeling right?
Have a good night


Vorg1

Check out Urban Soldier:Requiem
Uncle Sam
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Jul 2005
Location: West Coast, USA
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 09:43
None.
You too.

mamaji4
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location:
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 12:21 Edited at: 2nd May 2009 08:17
6

If at first you don't succeed, relax. You're like the rest of us.
mamaji4
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location:
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 12:52 Edited at: 2nd May 2009 08:17
7

If at first you don't succeed, relax. You're like the rest of us.
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 12:55
Um...A lot of people say 'killing some time' instead of passing time, without any violent connection, perhaps Matt even meant it as a pun.

Your signature has been erased by a mod - Please reduce it to 600x120 maximum size
mamaji4
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location:
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 12:58 Edited at: 27th Apr 2009 21:46
.

If at first you don't succeed, relax. You're like the rest of us.
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 13:30 Edited at: 27th Apr 2009 13:32
Believers and non-believers? This is not religion, so it's not a faith related subject.

But attacking phrases in the English language that have been around since before violent video games isn't exactly driving home a point. Or are you trying to suggest that Matt Rock used these words because video games have given him a violent mindset? If so, then that is unfounded speculation, because there's nothing to suggest that the two are connected.


I wonder what you make of those studies Mamaji? It seems cheap to jump on mere phrasing, whilst not considering the actual posts made. If you want to drive home your point for real, then perhaps refuting the studies Matt provided would do it.

Your signature has been erased by a mod - Please reduce it to 600x120 maximum size
mamaji4
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location:
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 13:37 Edited at: 2nd May 2009 08:18
8

If at first you don't succeed, relax. You're like the rest of us.
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 13:53
You confuse me sometimes Mamaji. But if that is your wish then stop. I have no problem with that, though it seemed as those Matt had a good few studies up his sleeve and more to come and I would have been interested to see the debate continue with responses to those. But 7 pages in and it's still civilized, so that's an achievement in a discussion like this.

Your signature has been erased by a mod - Please reduce it to 600x120 maximum size
mamaji4
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location:
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 14:05 Edited at: 2nd May 2009 08:18
9

If at first you don't succeed, relax. You're like the rest of us.
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 14:58
The same sort of thing could be applied to the studies used by people against violent video games. The ones that appear all over the news and the ones parents are asked to listen to. People speculate that violent crime has shot up because of violent video games and statistics show that violent crime (and crime in general) has gone down.

Though I disagree that it's pointless to carry on, particularly as we now have studies appearing and I'd hope evidence from both sides of the fence. To me, we've passed the stage of speculation and we're talking studies and statistics. That to me is where the argument can really be solved. So it's hardly pointless.

Your signature has been erased by a mod - Please reduce it to 600x120 maximum size
mamaji4
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location:
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 15:05 Edited at: 2nd May 2009 08:19
....

If at first you don't succeed, relax. You're like the rest of us.
mamaji4
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location:
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 21:30 Edited at: 2nd May 2009 08:19
0

If at first you don't succeed, relax. You're like the rest of us.
Darth Kiwi
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Jan 2005
Location: On the brink of insanity.
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 22:21
Quote: "Quote: "So it's hardly pointless."
An argument based on statistics that can be manipulated is pointless."

Perhaps the studies may not all be totally unbiased - but surely providing evidence of some kind is better than the speculation we had going before?
Quote: "
Just edited all my holier-than-thou posts. Now I can sleep with a clear conscience. Everyone have a beer on me."

Hey, don't worry about it. I think it's good to have somebody who disagrees with us to such a degree, so that we can have our preconceptions challenged and, if necessary, replaced (like all scientific thought).

You say that marketing makes or breaks a product. This is true to a large extent but you also have to bear in mind that the world of gaming is not necessarily just hungry for gore. There are people, like you, who are concerned about the level of violence in games - and there are some things which people like myself (ie. not against violent games) still find ghastly: for example, the iPhone game where you have to shake a baby to death. That game was removed from sale for being tasteless and, in my opinion, pretty vile. If anyone has any evidence to the contrary then I'd very much like to see it: I don't want to get my opinions wrong about these sorts of things. But it does sound like that game was simply mindless, crude, and pretty disturbing.

Manhunt 2, as well, was severely damaged by its over-the-top level of violence. In BioShock, they sailed a little close to the wind by giving you the opportunity to kill little girls. In the end they decided to make it as non-graphic as possible, and the developers say this was a personal as much as a marketing decision, but had they added in an animation of a little girl having her limbs shot off or something equally unsettling, I think it would probably affect sales, in a negative way. And even if a very violent game does get made, there's the age rating which, as Matt Rock has already said, provides enough information for the parent to make an informed decision. I don't think there's any point in providing more information in the form of this label, and the next step (if you're that way inclined) would be to actually prohibit violence in games, which, as Matt Rock has said, would infringe the creator's expression.

Secretary of Unknowable Knowledge for the Rock/Dink administration '08
Uncle Sam
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Jul 2005
Location: West Coast, USA
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 22:24 Edited at: 27th Apr 2009 22:26
Quote: "I have no right to cast the first stone, when I myself am without sin"


Just so everyone knows, I think you meant "not without sin" but left it out. I'm not being sarcastic, I know exactly what you were saying.

Same thing happened to me last night in this thread. I'm not saying that just because I have my own problems it's ok for everyone to play violent games, but I also have no right to write my own holier-than-thou posts.

Matt Rock
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 22:35 Edited at: 27th Apr 2009 22:38
Quote: "What about when computer graphics become photo-realistic? How far will people take this until they stop?"

Then they'll start being just as bad as Hollywood movies like Saw and Hostel.

Quote: "perhaps Matt even meant it as a pun."



Quote: "An argument based on statistics that can be manipulated is pointless."

You can't manipulate crime statistics. Are you telling me the Department of Justice and local law enforcement networks are rigging violent and non-violent crime stats because they don't want to make video games look bad? And if you'd looked at the studies I'd provided, you'd see that they came from reputable universities and organizations who were setting out on non-bias missions. Of course there are groups out there, on both sides mind you, who rig information or aren't reputable. None of the studies I supplied came from sources like that, because you'd have shot them down immediately .

The bottom line is that games have absolutely no impact on your psyche in any negative way. We're omnivorous creatures. We have flat teeth for munching veggies, and sharp teeth for ripping into flesh. Games satiate "the hunter" in all humans, without necessitating actual, real-world death. The concept that you can't live a moral, fulfilling life if you play violent games is absurd, and proponents of that theory never seem to take an equal stand against other mediums that put forth violence. People enjoy violent video games. Why? Because humans are, by our very nature, an extremely violent species. Crack open a history book and you'll see precisely what I mean.

I'd go so far as to claim that violent video games reduce violent crimes on the whole. The people who feel the need to kill might just get their fill playing video games, and not head out into the streets with raping and pillaging on the agenda. You often hear anti-violent games people claiming that gamers can't tell the difference between the virtual world and the real one. Then surely, that goes both ways? By that logic, a person who would otherwise perpetrate violent crimes might not feel the desire to do so because they're playing a violent game instead. You can't claim it works one way and not the other .

Edit: A phone call in the middle of posting a thread, and now I look like some maniacal jerkwad whose extending the debate with an attitude much fiercer than the thread is now, lol.

mamaji4
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location:
Posted: 27th Apr 2009 23:55 Edited at: 2nd May 2009 08:20
11

If at first you don't succeed, relax. You're like the rest of us.
Uncle Sam
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Jul 2005
Location: West Coast, USA
Posted: 28th Apr 2009 08:13
Quote: "Yeah. I forgot to put in the "not". The first time in my life I try not to be sarcastic and it turns out the other way around. Go figure that."




Quote: "The people who feel the need to kill might just get their fill playing video games"


I've tried to stay out of this argument but I can't! Everyone keeps saying that video games aren't linked to killing, and yet you claim it is a method to "get your fill" of murder and violence? If you make this kind of connection between violent shooters and killing real people then SOMETHING has to be wrong with it.

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2025-06-06 12:45:11
Your offset time is: 2025-06-06 12:45:11