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Geek Culture / check this out - future of computer graphics!!!

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Fatal Berserker
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Posted: 19th Jan 2011 13:38
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I was thinking of them taking photos of say a person ever x degrees on a blue-screen. And with complicated maths they should be able to get the correct propertions of the person. Then just rig the model up to the person and record the animations like that (those animation suits).

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 19th Jan 2011 14:22
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Quote: "The visual polygons are often used for collision detection. Often a seperate, hidden geometry is used for character collision, as it provides faster and cleaner collision with responses, less chance of getting stuck. But, do you really think that when you shoot a wall, and a decal appears, that it's using a hidden geometry?"


Thank you Van.

Quote: "I'd just like a video with no annoying british guy"


I resent that old chap.

They said they're making a converter that turns your polygonal creations into their point-cloud format. If that's the case, it'll have the same quality as the polygon model...

Also, how do you dictate point-density? Will it only create external points, or internal as well? Will there be the ability to get true dismemberment physics? Cut it across and atoms one side of the knife go one way, and the other side goes the other.

If they added that, it'd put game engines to shame in terms of destructibility.

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Van B
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Posted: 19th Jan 2011 14:25
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That works great if you discount all the concerns raised about animation. Memory? - how many frames do you think you could capture before next years PC's struggle?

I guess we'll find out in another year.

Ray tracing has a good few benefits, and is probably the next big thing - even though we had ray tracing long before we had textured polygons in games. In fact, the first '3D' games often used ray traced images. One big benefit is that it can adopt fractal textures easily, rather than using a texture map, you might specify the properties for a fractal texture, with infinite detail. I remember rendering images on my ST that were just impossible - it took all night to render at 320x200, I had to make my own software for viewing the TGA's (switching images and colour pallettes really fast, and relying on TV's with slow refresh rates). At least ray tracing has a bit of legacy behind it, and it can adopt current technology right off the bat. I can imagine traditional meshes but rendered with smooth curves to give infinite detail. It's conceivable at least, there is no glaring doubt or faith as to if it can work.

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 19th Jan 2011 17:40
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Quote: "In fact, the first '3D' games often used ray traced images."


do you mean like the old cinematics in games used ray tracing? can you give some examples of which games used this technology i am curios

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Ocho Geek
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Posted: 19th Jan 2011 19:20
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they said you can use a model importer, though an algorithm to add detail to imported objects (like pre-computer tessellation) would be ideal

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Fatal Berserker
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Posted: 19th Jan 2011 19:22
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Quote: "They said they're making a converter that turns your polygonal creations into their point-cloud format. If that's the case, it'll have the same quality as the polygon model..."

Yes but a high polygon model.

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Serge Adjo
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Posted: 2nd May 2011 00:31 Edited at: 2nd May 2011 00:55
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Hi, everyone ! I'm posting just to say that there is something new about "Unlimited Detail", maybe the "future of computer graphics".
so check this out here :

http://www.euclideon.com/

to sum up: the company "Euclideon" was formed in May 2010. It is dedicated to develop and publish/sell the "Unlimited Detail technology".
15 March 2011: the project has evolved greatly and everything works fine !

Watch this space (euclideon's website)!

Quote: "Unlimited Detail is a fourth system, which is more like a search algorithm than a 3D engine."
(source: http://unlimiteddetailtechnology.com/description.html at the bottom). I think this is fantastic !
Quote: "The Unlimited Detail engine works out which direction the camera is facing and then searches the data to find only the points it needs to put on the screen it doesn’t touch any unneeded points"

cool !

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Travis Gatlin
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Posted: 2nd May 2011 03:11
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No telling how much this "3D Scanner" would cost, for Indie devs like us, there is high doubt any of us would be able to afford such technology.

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Design Runner
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Posted: 2nd May 2011 03:53
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I've got a link for you travis:
http://www.david-laserscanner.com/

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Travis Gatlin
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Posted: 2nd May 2011 05:28
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Dude, that's pretty awesome, i never knew about that! thanks for that link! i think i might buy it, it could at least double model prodution time!

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mr_d
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Posted: 2nd May 2011 08:10 Edited at: 2nd May 2011 08:10
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@travis, i believe you meant "halve model production time"

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That Guy John
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Posted: 2nd May 2011 19:53
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I think technology like this is more less conceptual.
As in, a goal to strive for that will knowingly never be accomplished, but the concept pushes current technology to improve.

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DeadTomGC
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Posted: 3rd May 2011 02:32
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Dang, I was thinking about trying to make something like that, but OH! its already been done. Thank goodness.

Correct me if I am wrong, but won't we still need invisible polygons for things like collision, or does somebody have a way around this as well?

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Travis Gatlin
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Posted: 3rd May 2011 03:30
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Quote: "@travis, i believe you meant "halve model production time" "

Sorry, it was late lol
Quote: "Correct me if I am wrong, but won't we still need invisible polygons for things like collision, or does somebody have a way around this as well?"

I imagine so, if there is that much detail, using the mesh for collision would cause all sorts of problems, not only that! it would be slow.

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DeadTomGC
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Posted: 3rd May 2011 05:56
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Quote: "No telling how much this "3D Scanner" would cost, for Indie devs like us, there is high doubt any of us would be able to afford such technology."

Actually, people have been pretty successful at scanning objects using mindstorms and the third party laser range sensor, and that cost you a max of 300 dollars.

BTW, That bullet sig is pretty cool but kinda annoying too.

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 3rd May 2011 13:00
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there's software in development to turn video into a 3d model. The last I saw of it was some tech demo of a car being smashed in. (video of a car -> mesh -> physical simulation -> re-render)


Tell me if there's a broken link to images in a thread I post, and I'll fix 'em.
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Red Eye
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Posted: 3rd May 2011 13:11
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OMG! Who is the happiest guy in the world?

Me....

Feeel crappy tho, my engine sucks...xd

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Red Eye
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Posted: 3rd May 2011 13:13
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Sorry for double post... but doesnt this make life so gamish?

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Quik
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Posted: 3rd May 2011 13:34
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sucks how the UT engine thingy where they show of the next gen graphics *around 2 years away* looks a helluvalot better than any vortex stuff ive ever seen...

might be more saucy on the hardware, but still, it looks a lot better


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Red Eye
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Posted: 3rd May 2011 15:13
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Quote: "might be more saucy on the hardware, but still, it looks a lot better
"


You talking about Unlimited Detail Engine? Because you can run that on a phone.

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Quik
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Posted: 3rd May 2011 15:20
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no iam not, i am talking about the unreal next gen engine thingy, it looks way better than unlimited detail engine, it will need more saucy hardware but darn, it looks amazing

In every "Unlimited Detail Engine" they claim they can have unlimited detail, yet all i see are stuff, with bad textures and what looks like crappy bump maps, but it is "unlimited detail" in them...

I dont see anything special, I would like to say: if it surpasses Crysis in looks, then I will buy the concept of "unlimited detail, no hardware"
also, i aint buying it until i see some smooth and nice animations, in a playable enviroment


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Red Eye
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Posted: 3rd May 2011 16:18 Edited at: 3rd May 2011 16:20
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First of all... you cant see any bad textures.. as they are no textures... lol i would read something more about before claiming you see ghosts...

And besides that... what you saw was not made by artists to showcase thingy's... But by programmers that quickly made a scene to showcase.

And eveyrthing you see are dots (3d atoms) too represent a 3d mesh... but they used a search algorithm to show only whats needed...

Meaning you can have endless 3d atoms...

I do believe you really have no idea what you are talking about here... why bad assumptions?

Quote: "
I dont see anything special, I would like to say: if it surpasses Crysis in looks, then I will buy the concept of "unlimited detail, no hardware""


Did you actually watched the unlimited detail videos?
Or based your assumptions on some images?

Quote: "i aint buying it until i see some smooth and nice animations, in a playable enviroment"


It's not for sale.

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Van B
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Posted: 3rd May 2011 16:24
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Quote: "You talking about Unlimited Detail Engine? Because you can run that on a phone."


Where did you hear that? - just sounds like more marketting drivel with no hard evidence, much like the majority of this engine.

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Red Eye
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Posted: 3rd May 2011 16:32 Edited at: 3rd May 2011 16:32
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@Van B: It runs on a laptop with one single core... which is basicaly what iphone has or ipad... It is possible as with a good search algorithm you could make it so only to show the pixels that you have on screen 1024x768 for example would show that much pixels thus that much dots in the world space... a phone has significantly less pixels...

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Benjamin
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Posted: 3rd May 2011 17:17
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Quote: "And eveyrthing you see are dots (3d atoms) too represent a 3d mesh..."


Voxels, anyone?

Quote: "but they used a search algorithm to show only whats needed..."


Culling, anyone?

One thing's for sure, it's certainly not any more 'unlimited' than polygon technology is. And as of yet, I haven't seen any screen shots that compare with the quality of modern games, and I'll be even more surprised if I see a demo of such quality any time soon that can run on current machines.



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Quik
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Posted: 3rd May 2011 17:43
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Quote: "First of all... you cant see any bad textures.. as they are no textures... lol i would read something more about before claiming you see ghosts...

And besides that... what you saw was not made by artists to showcase thingy's... But by programmers that quickly made a scene to showcase.

And eveyrthing you see are dots (3d atoms) too represent a 3d mesh... but they used a search algorithm to show only whats needed...

Meaning you can have endless 3d atoms...

I do believe you really have no idea what you are talking about here... why bad assumptions?

Quote: "
I dont see anything special, I would like to say: if it surpasses Crysis in looks, then I will buy the concept of "unlimited detail, no hardware""

Did you actually watched the unlimited detail videos?
Or based your assumptions on some images?

Quote: "i aint buying it until i see some smooth and nice animations, in a playable enviroment"

It's not for sale."


all of this except for the textures being the dots i knew, yes i watched the videos, yes i have been tracking this for a while

and like i said, i havent seen anything special, but once real artists learn to use it maybe i will? just havent seen solid proof of it looking exceptional yet, also i'd like to see it with very advanced lightning effects. Since its unlimited detail for little power maybe you can pump out even better lights, shadows, animations and so on?


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Red Eye
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Posted: 3rd May 2011 18:26 Edited at: 3rd May 2011 18:28
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Quote: "Quote: "And eveyrthing you see are dots (3d atoms) too represent a 3d mesh..."

Voxels, anyone?"


Ofcourse... thats the whole thing... there is nothing new about it... it is used in 3dcoat (maybe zbrush i dont know)...

Quote: "

Quote: "but they used a search algorithm to show only whats needed..."

Culling, anyone?"


Culling works a bit differently than how this works... check on the videos how they have done it...

Besides there are different culling.. Umbrasoft its booster comes close what this guys have done.

Quote: "and like i said, i havent seen anything special, but once real artists learn to use it maybe i will? just havent seen solid proof of it looking exceptional yet, also i'd like to see it with very advanced lightning effects. Since its unlimited detail for little power maybe you can pump out even better lights, shadows, animations and so on?"


once artists get their hands on this i am sure they will present you with better looking stuff...

but the Tech is really impressive.

I only hope this all is real...

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Van B
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Posted: 3rd May 2011 20:20
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Quote: "@Van B: It runs on a laptop with one single core... which is basicaly what iphone has or ipad... It is possible as with a good search algorithm you could make it so only to show the pixels that you have on screen 1024x768 for example would show that much pixels thus that much dots in the world space... a phone has significantly less pixels..."


Well the iPad displays are at 1024x768, retina displays are not too far behind.

What you haven't factored is actual memory. The iPhone has 256mb of memory, in terms of the amount of memory required for an engine like that, well we don't have to do the math. No matter how an engine is rendered, there still has to be a lot of vector math, just to calculate the display - I have no idea how much additional vector math would be involved in a system like that, I expect it's a lot more than plain old polygons. I don't have faith in this magical search algorithm... points * data * movement * zdepth... there's no getting away from the core maths involved.

I'm no where near convinced that this is all it's cracked up to be, because frankly it's gone nowhere in all the time I've known about it - I can't even remember how long ago it was that this came up. I'm not a sceptic, I'm a realist, and if I see a game made in this engine, in this decade, I'll eat my own shoes.

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Ocho Geek
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Posted: 3rd May 2011 20:27 Edited at: 3rd May 2011 20:30
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Quote: "I'll eat my own shoes."

Ctrl C, Ctrl V... watch out

EDIT: Besides, it's not the quality of the graphics that matter, its the 3d detail. If I came up to you and said I have a 3 billion polygon 3d object rendering in real time on my computer, you'd probably go "Wow thats amazing" rather than "oh it just looks like a blob".

I understand your scepticism (which it is) but, assuming it's real, It looks fairly awesome

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Quik
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Posted: 3rd May 2011 20:33
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Quote: "[quote]I'm no where near convinced that this is all it's cracked up to be, because frankly it's gone nowhere in all the time I've known about it - I can't even remember how long ago it was that this came up. I'm not a sceptic, I'm a realist, and if I see a game made in this engine, in this decade, I'll eat my own shoes.
"


this ^

I discovered it about a year ago, nothing have changed at all..
Still as said very interesting if they start making progress again.


[Q]uik, Quiker than most
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Red Eye
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Posted: 3rd May 2011 21:22
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Aaah I was not updated on how long this is online... i though it was a recent engine...

I guess you guys are right on that! They havent changed much then...

O well... I will stay tuned for next updates...

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Poloflece
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Posted: 4th May 2011 14:10
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It looked pretty laggy, disproving "unlimited" detail.

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Ocho Geek
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Posted: 4th May 2011 17:35
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The videos were terrible quality, could have been that

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Red Eye
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Posted: 4th May 2011 19:47 Edited at: 4th May 2011 19:48
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Quote: "It looked pretty laggy, disproving "unlimited" detail."


Disproving? Any recording software takes cpu time, and makes software lag.

I noticed indeed that this software has been there for ages, so probably not too much happened...

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Fallout
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Posted: 4th May 2011 19:55
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Everyone's discussing this as if it's fact now? At what point did we go from deciding it was a big hoax to deciding it was a real engine?

Did I miss the evidence?

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Ocho Geek
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Posted: 4th May 2011 20:57
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Don't go around doubting everything, The world gets lightly depressing. We're making the assumption it's real and leaving it like that until we're due a demo

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Fallout
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Posted: 4th May 2011 21:56
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I generally sit on the fence. I don't desperately want to believe, nor automatically doubt incredible things. The thing is, nobody develops a technology, revolutionary or not, and just keeps it all to themselves except a few meagre bits of dubious information. People release demos. They market it. They build a hype so that buyers become interested.

The only time people ever provide a small snippet of information for miraculous things, without clarity or following it up, is when they're talking bull. This follows the same formula as free energy hoaxes. Show it working in a video, but without any real proof, and keep banging on about how it works, but never allow others to verify it.

Don't automatically write things off, but when it's promising you the world for free, you have to question it, otherwise you're a fool. (Not directed at you personally - that's a general you).

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bitJericho
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Posted: 4th May 2011 22:51
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It probably just means they haven't been able to get the quality up to par before they ran out of money.

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Fallout
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Posted: 4th May 2011 23:26
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I dunno. How much money could they need? Looks like they've done all the hard work. At this point they should be able to demo it to pretty much anyone and have their hand bitten off, imo.

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 4th May 2011 23:54
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Who knows, but if they're going to take on staff (even short termers/freelancers) then they'll need to dangle a decent carrot. Might be difficult, given how specialized such a project would be.


Hmm, I wonder what's coming in 2011?
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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 5th May 2011 00:43
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Meh, even realtime fluid demos have evolved into full-blown game features before this engine gets a playable demo out.

There's probably some hitch, or bug they've underestimated, or it's worked in pre-rendered demos, but not in realtime due to unforeseen errors. There's almost definitely something they overlooked that came back to bite them.

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David R
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Posted: 5th May 2011 17:21 Edited at: 5th May 2011 17:27
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Or it's a total load of crap, which I suspect it is.

This technology is apparently so 'amazing', that it has remained hidden from academia, SIGGRAPH, all the big engine developers (inc. John Carmack) and even companies focused on pre-rendered 3D technology. Doesn't sound that likely to me.

I think the reason all their tech demos look so hideous is actually because of some blatant flaw in the tech. (that would make it useless for most purposes) that they're going to creatively hide until people buy it. Or it's total fabrication: who knows.

EDIT:

By the way, the idea behind the tech of this is real. But their pitch is rubbish. This is more akin to the reality - notice that he points out how the FPS drops as the mesh detail increases, and he never implies anything is 'unlimited' (as well as the fact he actually tackles animation). Oh, and he has actually released a demo+source code

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Van B
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Posted: 5th May 2011 17:36
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Do we know how old this actually is yet? - Because I swear this first appeared on the forum a few years ago.

That's what I'm saying though, compared to polygon rendering, this has so many pitfalls that it's borderline rediculous to attempt it on modern hardware, let alone single core laptops. It's the wrong sort of rediculous though, the sort that makes people point and laugh.

To display a polygon fully lit, it has to calculate lighting at each vertex - keeping it simple, lets say it uses standard DX lighting, so not even a collision check - just based on light and normal vectors. 3 calculations per polygon, cheap and efficient but maybe not pretty by todays standards. Now imagine that's a point cloud, a point cloud dorrito - every point in that point cloud would need a similar, probably more complex lighting calculation. A polygon can get by with it's vertex diffuse, but when the polygon is made from a million or so points, each one requiring it's own lighting calculation, well it all adds up to a whole lot of pipe-dreams and broken promises. I think CoffeeGrunt is right - they didn't factor in practicality, and practicality bit them on the butt.

I think we're stuck with polygons for the time being, there really is nothing to do but try and improve on them. Even voxels are dead in the water, and they prooved themselves.

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MrValentine
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Posted: 8th May 2011 08:06 Edited at: 8th May 2011 08:27
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I scanned through quickly to make sure I am the first to say this..

DO YOU THINK THEY USED DBPRO TO MAKE THIS? :p

I smell the voice and humor in those vids of a west end londoner...

eitherway, he is claiming that nvidia (and that silly other COALITION BAND lol) arent really looking into point graphics...

NBody physics simulation anyone?

eitherway, I dont think its the graphics industry thats not ready for this amount of detail, its more the developers wanting to adapt it slowly and until there is a stable and flexible and tried and tested kit out there before they invest millions on it.

dont crufify me, its now 06:05am and I have not had my coffee...

I am writing this post up short for now... so not totally expressing my view here.

EDIT

but yeah, hope he sticks by it and not just package it and tadara it off to some not giving a **** company for x billion... and I look forward to more detailed work from them so will keep posted here on it

EDIT

not sure if this was mentioned before... but I do not think it will be easy to animate using this tech, so it seems it will be static, and how about colissions? is everything loaded as one object? >.<

EDIT

http://youtu.be/_NxCfYkPYBI

also british motorway csi have been using this tech for ages to record data at road accidents (itsept theirs takes forever, way to go gov budget lol)

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