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Geek Culture / Professional At Work

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old_School
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 01:13
Professional At Work
By Micah Holmes
8/27/2011

A lot of people ask me commonly what I do for a living because I appear to “have it all together”. I tell them I work for myself from home, I’m a software engineer. The typical response is “wow that must be awesome”. My reply is your typical lie “yeah it’s great”. To be honest, owning your own small business sucks. A typical work day starts at 6 a.m. and ends from 9 p.m. to 1 a.m. or longer. That’s 7 days a week as well.

Others say “well you don’t have to deal with my boss”. In my mind I often think, neither you nor your boss could last 5 minutes in my job. But that’s the thing; we all think other people have it so good looking at a person’s job from a distance. When you take on the other person’s job, you begin to see the hell that awaits you. A lot of people want that professional career because it makes more money. But those people enjoy working there 9-5 position. They punch in right at 9 and punch out right at 5.

When you’re a professional, there is no clock to punch in or out off. You leave when your work is done. Rather it be 5 p.m. or 9 p.m. you’re not leaving till it’s done. So is that extra 5 grand a year worth working extra hours? These are things the colleges you attend or may be attending to work toward that “professional career” do not tell you up front. You want to be rich and successful. That’s great now be ready to work 90+ work weeks to get it.

A lot of people think I joke when I say I work more than I eat, sleep or do anything. Then I ask them, do you ever see me outside of my house? Do I ever visit you? Do I call you or do you call me? Then a spark fills their brain. “Huh I guess you are always working”. Sadly when I get up from my desk to use the bathroom, in my mind I’m still working. When I lay down at night to rest, I’m still working in my mind. My wife has woke me up because I was programming a software program out loud in my sleep and when I put comments in I woke her up. This is what being a professional is all about folks. Eat sleep and die working.

Those, whom know me well, think or call me a workaholic. Well that’s true, I am a workaholic. But I’d rather be a workaholic than an alcoholic like them. I guess drinking though could be considered a profession. In order to be a professional the point is simple, work a lot. In order to be a good professional work even more. An if you want to be the guy on the top calling the shots, devote your life to work. The hours are long and sleep is no wear in sight so you better have a passion for the job.

Passion for the work is what makes small business owners work so hard. Our products we make are not to better a corporate stockholders account. They are products we create and produce because we believe in them. People often wonder why I brand or stamp my company name of my products. I do it because I take pride in my work and when you use my products I want you to associate quality with my brand name. I’m no different than any other small business owner, we want to spread our name out there but show people we take pride as well in are craftsmanship. Ultimately that’s what a professional is, a craftsman at work professionally.
Design Runner
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 01:37
Amen. That's really all I can think to say.

xplosys
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 01:56
Quote: "By Micah Holmes"


Who is Micah Holmes?

Zotoaster
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 01:58 Edited at: 30th Aug 2011 05:01
[edit] changed my mind.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
old_School
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 04:15
Im Micah Holmes lol I wrote the article for my website and wanted to share it. I enjoy writting business articles and sometimes I think I hit topics general enough they can be shared with everyone.

These articles are about impowering small business owners such as my self/others as well as educating the younger hobbists considering a career in small business. I mean if your a young person who wants to leave your job because you hate your boss or working long hours, self enployeement is not the answer. Self employeements for those whom love working and are very passionate about their work. So thats just a few points the article hits. I hope you guys enjoyed it.
xplosys
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 04:33
This truely is the "land of oportunity". Last month you were a computer repair man who couldn't spell and posted like a forth grader. The code you posted and programs you showed to us were juvinile at best. Now you're a software engineer with three university degrees and you can spell and string together sentences and paragraphs like a professor. I am truely amazed.

Be careful though, because your spelling and grammer is beginning to slip again.

Brian.

bitJericho
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 04:42 Edited at: 28th Aug 2011 04:44
If you're doing that, you're doing it wrong. (or just getting started). Of course, unless that's what you want in life. Anyway, I'm still working for the man so I dunno why I'm even posting my opinion on this in this thread


Plystire
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 05:16 Edited at: 28th Aug 2011 05:18
Quote: "If you're doing that, you're doing it wrong. (or just getting started)"


This.

If you're a business owner and you're doing all the work. You're either still starting up, or you're doing it wrong.

The hardest part of moving from "startup business" to "small business" is knowing when you have to stop doing all of the work yourself and start getting employees to take the load off, so that you can expand and grow as a business. As long as you're still doing all of the work yourself, you are still considered a "startup".

The end-goal for a small business is not to be doing any of the real "work" yourself, since you are the owner. That is, unless you truly enjoy doing work, in which case you should only being doing SOME of the work. Fact of the matter is, if you want to "make it big", you can't be spending your time doing menial tasks. As the owner, you have more important things to worry about, such as "what can we do to become larger/more profitable"?


There is a big difference between "I work for myself" and "I own a company/business".


~Plystire

A rose is only a rose until it is held and cherished -- then it becomes a treasure.
rolfy
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 06:03
Quote: "In my mind I often think, neither you nor your boss could last 5 minutes in my job"

Um...the boss,whether the manager or owner of a professional business could surely handle it (already does in fact), particularly with decent time management skills.
I have been there, working self employed for over twenty five years now and sometimes get a little overwhelmed with work when I take on too much (freelance means you got keep current clients happy and are continually seeking new ones) its not an easy way to earn a living but its only as difficult as you make it and not taking on more than you can handle is a lesson to learn.
Actually that whole rant above sounds like your either in meltdown or heading for it, take a break.

old_School
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 14:36 Edited at: 28th Aug 2011 14:38
The "rant" is describing my business and how I operate. Wise man told me if your not busy, your not working. If your not working, your not living. So what that means is I'm very passionate about my work and I feel when I'm working its my vacation. I honestly do love to work in the software field. My thoughts as well are if your a small business owner and your not working 16 plus hours a day. Your business is not getting any business or enough business. Some business owners can not handle the work load but I love it.

@ Xplosys

Seriously your rude comments are not welcome. The only thing I see "juvinile" is your attempt to bash others. I'm not blind, Ive seen you attempt to bash others and Ive seen you warned by the Mods. Its posts like yours above that get you mod warnings. Sometimes silence is a virtue.

@ Everyone else

This is my work ethic, love to work, I'm addicted to work and not much more to say. I'm not into the whole freelancing thing. Software I make, is made and sold typical by my self in my store front. Every now and then I get lucky an find a offsite vendor to purchase product or the rights to a product.

My business is far from perfect or far from making me a millionaire. So the main point of the article as stated was to enpower the small business man/women. Encourage you to take pride in your work rather it sells or not. Each completed project is anohter notch in your belt of success. I mean money is good lol But being a professional at work is about the pride and craftsmanship of producing a great product.
Quik
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 15:46
From reading this I wouldnt say you are a professional or have a passion for work, i would say you work TOO much, you know the thought there "work eat and die" well, i cant agree at all with that one.

I dont want to see my life as a life of a bee, they have 7 days to live and those 7 days they ONLY work and eat. I find that shoey.
Work isnt all in life, work is only what you make it to be: If you find joy in working well, basicly all the time then by all means go ahead: You are, as you said in your last post <addicted> to work, there is a big difference between addiction and having a passion for it.

and for the record, I am a man.

Jeku
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 18:31
I don't understand why some people think working 20 hours a day is a badge of honour? You are not a 'professional' simply because you're a freelancing workaholic. There are many things that make a professional. I'd much rather enjoy life and work hard during my 8 hours a day, personally, and I consider myself successful (in job terms, work life, salary, location, etc.)


Software Engineer - Metamoki
Libervurto
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 18:57 Edited at: 28th Aug 2011 18:58
Quote: "These articles are about impowering small business owners such as my self/others as well as educating the younger hobbits considering a career in small business."

fixed.

You don't sound very happy to me Micah, maybe you ARE working too much.

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Fallout
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 19:19
I'm self employed and I work from 7:30am (when the mrs leaves for work) until 5:00pm, when she gets home. Occasionally I'll continue on to 6pm or 7pm if I've got a lot to do, or not at a logical end point. But since I make the dinner, if I don't stop then, neither of us gets fed!

I work more now than I ever did when employed in the industry, but only to the tune of an hour or two per day, which is worth it because I enjoy the work. There are loads of other fringe benefits too, like being able to go out and perform other duties during the working day, like food shopping or maybe mowing the lawn, just cos ya can. You can make up the time (or not) as you so wish.

Financially I earn less than I did in the industry, but I'm still really a start-up. Also, I would say I'm working the correct amount. I'm not burning myself out, but by the time I clock off, productivity has normally started to slip.

If you work too much, you will do an old_school, and work in your sleep. That is unsustainable health wise and sanity wise. I've been there. You work like a dog. You're always thinking work. Not only does this eventually catch up with you, resulting in stress or exhaustion, but you also neglect people and yourself, and basically become a loser. When you realise you want the love of your life to go out with her friends without you, so you can work, YOU ARE A LOSER. <--- That's me sometimes.

I would chillax old_school. Have a kit kat!

RedneckRambo
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 21:27
Quote: "@ Xplosys

Seriously your rude comments are not welcome. The only thing I see "juvinile" is your attempt to bash others. I'm not blind, Ive seen you attempt to bash others and Ive seen you warned by the Mods. Its posts like yours above that get you mod warnings. Sometimes silence is a virtue. "

He has only posted what we have some from you here

Going to have to agree with pretty much anyone that says you are not really a professional. You're just an overworked small businessman.

Though that is absolutely great that you enjoy your work. As Confucius says, "Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life."

Quik
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 22:08
Quote: "If you work too much, you will do an old_school, and work in your sleep. That is unsustainable health wise and sanity wise. I've been there. You work like a dog. You're always thinking work. Not only does this eventually catch up with you, resulting in stress or exhaustion, but you also neglect people and yourself, and basically become a loser. When you realise you want the love of your life to go out with her friends without you, so you can work, YOU ARE A LOSER. <--- That's me sometimes."


Thinking about an project while sleeping is not a bad thing, i think about modelling drawing etc, projects i work on..

may also add that i usually think about "real life textures and forms" and study them at my free time: but that is due to the fact that it's a hobby that i enjoy, i dont feel like i HAVE TO DO IT, so to speak

and for the record, I am a man.

Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 29th Aug 2011 01:12 Edited at: 29th Aug 2011 01:15
If it's that bad, quit doing your own stuff and get a normal 9AM-5PM job (by the way, there are hardly any software development jobs that actually go from 9AM to 5PM, more like 8AM to 6PM).


Wolf
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Posted: 29th Aug 2011 01:33 Edited at: 29th Aug 2011 01:36
Everything in this text is a contradiction to my life and most of its values. So I say...what?! Come to your sences!

Quote: "no <wear> in sight"


"where "

Quit taking yourself so serious.


Quote: "
A lot of people think I joke when I say I work more than I eat, sleep or do anything. Then I ask them, do you ever see me outside of my house? Do I ever visit you? Do I call you or do you call me? Then a spark fills their brain. “Huh I guess you are always working”. Sadly when I get up from my desk to use the bathroom, in my mind I’m still working. When I lay down at night to rest, I’m still working in my mind. My wife has woke me up because I was programming a software program out loud in my sleep and when I put comments in I woke her up. This is what being a professional is all about folks. Eat sleep and die working. "


This is what being a slave is all about. A lifeless tool.
If you are already working that much, you should really do something about your grammar.

In friendship and love... you can be the most important person in the world for someone. This is life.

In the business world, you are nothing but a disposable screw in a large machinery. People work to live...not the other way around.



-Wolf

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Inspire
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Posted: 29th Aug 2011 08:18
What about the internet makes everybody feel like they possess the most divine opinion in the universe?

Van B
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Posted: 29th Aug 2011 11:18
Quote: "In order to be a professional the point is simple, work a lot. In order to be a good professional work even more. An if you want to be the guy on the top calling the shots, devote your life to work. The hours are long and sleep is no wear in sight so you better have a passion for the job."


Being a professional is about doing the job well, not doing the job constantly. There is no programmer on this earth who can still work effectively after 12 hours. There comes a point where it's more effective to stop working, get some rest, relax, then tackle the problem again the next morning. I find that the trickiest bugs sort themselves out if you give your brain a chance to deal with them. Walk away from the PC, then come back with a fresh plan on how to progress.

Getting sleep is the most important thing IMO, if you are tired, you'll just make a mess, have to redo your work, and end up procrastinating at the end of the day, because programming is daunting, you should be at the top of your game before you even start... and that doesn't start with a degree or a company name, that starts with a decent nights sleep.

Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
Plystire
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Posted: 29th Aug 2011 23:56
It sounds to me like he just needed to vent. Sounds like he's been working too hard and just wanted to talk about it. Let it out, man. Let it out, get some sleep, and start anew the next day.


~Plystire

A rose is only a rose until it is held and cherished -- then it becomes a treasure.
Travis Gatlin
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Posted: 30th Aug 2011 00:52 Edited at: 30th Aug 2011 00:53
Micah, I admire you for this, i could do anything this long without my attention drifting off to something less repetitive. But in all seriousness, take a chill pill! Goodness, i only do alot of game\software dev in my spare time, i spend alot of my time chilling, maybe do some modeling, i hardly ever get depressed. You really don't have to spend all of your time programming, only at work of course but, find a hobby to do in your spare time! Give yourself a couple of days off in the week!

My Mind is very odd, it can memorize hundreds of commands, memorize 2 dictionary's worth of words, and make detailed 3D models. Yet my mind has trouble with the most simple calculations.
Dazzag
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Posted: 30th Aug 2011 10:42
It all depends on perspective.

When I first started my job within a year I was sent to Dubai to work on a massive project for 3 months. I put in a 95 hour working week once, normally got in at about 6am and left about 12am, and one month did 156 hours overtime. At the end of it I was promoted to team leader, had earned enough in overtime to buy a car (I was broke before), and had got some much needed respect.

After about 6 years with the company I was in a pretty good position. Still a teamleader, but things were looking good and a managerial position was opening up in a new department. The development manager had been training me for his job so either I would get the new job or he would move over leaving his job open to me. At this point I felt like it was *my* company. I loved it, pretty much all my mates worked there, I was putting in 6 or 7 day weeks (I went a year working every Saturday for instance, and didn't take a single days holiday), long hours, good wage increases, and we had loads of work and I was happy with that. I love programming. Downside was I had no real time for a personal life or anything. But I *loved* it there.

Then 911 hit. The company lost it's back bone and panicked in very shaky times for the industry (IT and Travel). So they sold to a rival (who they had very nearly bought a few years earlier). I was then a cog rather than an important member of the company. I still worked hard but it seemed for no value. Nevermind, principles and all that.

A year later they make most of my friends redundant. People I have known for years. Moral is pretty much none existent. It seems no matter how hard you work it is not noticed. You go to sleep, you get up, you go to work, you work, you go home. Repeat. Couple in the fact that friends from all over the country (make that the world) are losing IT jobs like crazy. Sigh.

Extract the last bit out over a decade. Nothing has changed except everyone has gone. 150 original company people down to me and a couple of others. I get on with my stuff and I am ignored. It will do as it pays the bills. Overtime? What overtime. I probably do about 5 days a year extra (normally out of my holiday as it's always something super urgent). Upside? I had more time, met someone, and got married. Also a few years ago I moved to Cyprus for a more relaxed life (still worked for the same company) and the company put me to 4 days a week. Very good if you can afford to do it trust me (sounds obvious but even more than you think). And then when I got married and came back to the UK I stayed on 4 days. Loving it basically. I get on with my job, get paid, am not stressed out like a few of the newer tech departments here (who have to put in the long hours now and again), and have a great home life.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Dazzag
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Posted: 30th Aug 2011 10:46 Edited at: 30th Aug 2011 10:53
Heh, that was a bit of a story. Sorry!

Oh and what I was initially thinking was a friend of mine used to put in extra hours (of his own unpaid time) to finish big projects when he worked for IBM, and they sacked him because the manager felt he should be able to do the work in normal work hours so obviously isn't good enough. He didn't like it when my mate rubbished him saying it was the stupid deadlines.

That's an exception though. Big thing though is these days with the sheer number of programmers around, then *if* you get a job then work yourself into the ground for a few years. When you get some respect then ease off. There really isn't enough work around for the numbers. So you have to do better to shine. Almost every job now can advertise for a wide range of skills you have to be expert at as there *is* someone(s) who can fill the role exactly. It's a hard IT world now, and one method to shine, if you get the chance that is, is to work yourself into the ground and hope they don't have grounds to sack you when you hit your inevitable breakdown (seen it happen although normally takes many years of pressure). Employers market...

Heh, and if you think that all sounds quite negative, that's from someone who didn't have to pay a penny for Uni. Was even given thousands in grants (don't have to pay back). Imagine the negativity in 15 years or so from a current student with an extra £50k or so in debt.... Shiver...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Wolf
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Posted: 30th Aug 2011 13:27 Edited at: 30th Aug 2011 13:28
Yeah...this is an edited post...nothing to see here, folks...move along

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Plystire
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Posted: 30th Aug 2011 13:39
@Dazzag:

Is it bad of me for wanting to reach through the Internet and punch you, simply for having it better than most IT guys?


~Plystire

A rose is only a rose until it is held and cherished -- then it becomes a treasure.
Quik
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Posted: 30th Aug 2011 14:16
Quote: "Yeah...this is an edited post...nothing to see here, folks...move along"


I lol'd x)

and for the record, I am a man.

Oolite
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Posted: 30th Aug 2011 14:47
Back in my pure freelance days I constantly told myself that I'd keep my working hours to 7-5 and leave the evenings for myself. Unfortunately, that never used to give me as many hours as I'd need so I'd carry on working through the night. Jeku is right, working stupid hours isn't what makes you a professional but it usually is required to earn the money that you need to live.
Right now I'm self employed (again) but I'm working on my own games to sell through sponsorship(flash games) or self publishing (android). So far I have earned enough money to keep myself afloat but I'm not exactly rolling in it. I've given myself the next month before university starts to push out two games and this means working really full on for the next month. When uni starts I'll be working full time on university work and trying to also push out some of my own games. It's going to mean a lot of hours in front of the old computer screen.
The best year I had was when I was working freelance and also teaching on the side. I managed to earn enough in the first six months of the year to live off for the rest of the year. I wish every year could be like that.
Working freelance is really a case of you get out what you put into it. This flash game/mobile game thing is really a case of luck. Doesn't matter how good your game is when the market is this saturated and I think it takes a good community of well linked followers to really push your game forward amongst all the crap.
Don't get me wrong, I love what I do and I have learnt how to manage my time a little better but sometimes my mind and body are both exhausted that the daily 9-5 grind is looking a little better.
Dazzag
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Posted: 30th Aug 2011 16:48
Quote: "Is it bad of me for wanting to reach through the Internet and punch you, simply for having it better than most IT guys?"
Seriously? You got the despair, never ending nothingless, constant paranoia over job security (try "doing it the right way" with redundancies where they tell 50 of you (just before Xmas) that over half of you are being made redundant but the rest they never meant to get rid of but it's the proper way of doing it etc, or applying for your own job where they get you to compete against friends...) etc where once was friends, a family type atmosphere and possibilities? Right?

On the other hand yeah, I love the core of what I do still, and most people leave me alone. So can't complain

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Van B
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Posted: 30th Aug 2011 17:01
I've only ever been in a redundancy battle once, and really it wasn't a concern - I've been lucky. Imagine having 1 IT guy, and 2 girls that process purchase orders, and choose which one is for the chop... solo IT guys still have decent job security, we can still make it an inconceivible nightmare to replace us.
Anyway, I can only imagine being in a situation like that with people in the same field, must be downright depressing. I don't think I'd take it well, I think if it was a redundancy battle or re-applying for my job, I'd just leave - because it would only be a matter of time before they'd have to take me on as a consultant. The benefits of sloppy programming techniques and uncommented code ehh!

Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
Quik
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Posted: 30th Aug 2011 17:16
Just a bit of a self pity here: I live in sweden, there are ONE big gaming company in sweden (Paradox) and a indie one in my city (skellefteå) (those who made Magicka)
So the only way for me to actually fit into the whole gaming industry in reality would be:
1: move to Stockholm.. not something i would gladly do iam afraid.
2: Start my own company, which i might actually do some time...

so once i graduate from highschool 3rd year i will go to univerity, with 3d for more years, then i will have to get the first best job i can(because iam lucky if i even get one) then make my own indie company in spare free time...

Just saying that you guys, who actually have jobs: in the line of that you LIKE... consider yourself extremely lucky, because we swedes might not even be able to get jobs and have to be without jobs for 2+ years AFTER graduation it is that or move 800 kilometres down the country, which is not something i would like...


well, might seem a bit unrelated this, but i was just wanting to say: if you have a job, that you like (or a job at all): Be happy that you have it, even if you have to grind your feet to the ground, atleast you have the oppurtunity to do that.

and for the record, I am a man.

Dazzag
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Posted: 30th Aug 2011 18:20
I've only been in one I've known about. We did have redundancies every 6 months for about a decade, but only once did I get put in the "battle" redundancy pool. Although it turned out they had no intention of getting rid of me, but to comply with regulations had to put everyone in similar areas in the same boat. The other example of applying for your own job to battle against someone else was one of our clients recently where they bought another company and everyone in their company had to reapply for their own jobs compared to people from the other company. Was an excuse to kick you out if you were a bit lapse with anything. Nice. Everyone but the MD I believe had to reapply for their own jobs. CVs and everything.

Worst I've heard is when there was 3 sales guys put under the swinging axe. One was the development directors brother, one was the main salesman's best mate, and the other was some ordinary bloke. No surprises...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Dazzag
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Posted: 30th Aug 2011 18:30
Quote: "Just saying that you guys, who actually have jobs: in the line of that you LIKE... consider yourself extremely lucky, because we swedes might not even be able to get jobs and have to be without jobs for 2+ years AFTER graduation it is that or move 800 kilometres down the country, which is not something i would like..."
What makes you think it is different here? In the UK no-one would give me a job until I tried in London (half an hour outside in the end). Even cities the size of Manchester and Liverpool couldn't give a monkeys and this was 16 years ago when things were *great* compared to now for IT. That's almost 500km and isn't the most extreme case at all.

Also it depends on what you like. I, like you and most here, really wanted to be in the game industry. It's really limiting your chances though in a field which is getting more and more saturated by programmers by the day. So you take anything after a while.

Now it depends how much you love programming. I do travel reservation systems for example. Sounds boring as hell. Actually quite interesting in the long run and really gets you going with some complex problems. On the other hand a mate of mine did a bit of game programming as a job and hated it. Only got a small part of the whole and lots of testing with very little room for inivation. Yawn. On a bigger other hand another mate of mine at Uni is now a director at EA and has worked on some huge titles and loves it. He was the maths guy who everyone just nodded at when he whipped out Atari ST assembly code created raster routines when everyone else was tinkering with STOS and drinking beer. Ho hum...

Still, I do love programming my little iPhone games. Ah, if only I could get enough money doing it... And there you are, my final words of (cough) wisdom. Do your own company if you have *nothing* to lose. I really really wish I had back in the day. Ahhhh, I still remember our plan for writing systems for pubs when we were 18 (imagine how great selling the stuff would be and getting free drinks etc).

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Quik
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Posted: 30th Aug 2011 18:50
Quote: "What makes you think it is different here? In the UK no-one would give me a job until I tried in London (half an hour outside in the end). Even cities the size of Manchester and Liverpool couldn't give a monkeys and this was 16 years ago when things were *great* compared to now for IT. That's almost 500km and isn't the most extreme case at all."


Iam not saying it is, or is not better there: I wasn't referring to any specific country as far as i know.

Quote: "Also it depends on what you like. I, like you and most here, really wanted to be in the game industry. It's really limiting your chances though in a field which is getting more and more saturated by programmers by the day. So you take anything after a while. "


May also add a note that iam looking to become a 3d artist, meaning that range of work isnt just limited to games, but i see your picture

and for the record, I am a man.

Dazzag
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Posted: 30th Aug 2011 18:57
Quote: "I wasn't referring to any specific country as far as i know"
Ah, sorry, I thought you meant Sweden. But yes I believe it's pretty much anywhere. And getting worse.

Quote: "May also add a note that iam looking to become a 3d artist, meaning that range of work isnt just limited to games, but i see your picture"
Yeah, students better hope to be able to get by on rubbish jobs for quite a while unless they are borderline geniuses, and anyone in a job has to keep their heads down and hope their company doesn't notice them or implodes one day. It's been a long time since I've known anyone in IT tell their boss how it all was going to work or even demanded a pay rise. Employers market. Very sad...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Dazzag
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Posted: 30th Aug 2011 19:05
Quote: "iam looking to become a 3d artist"
Good luck. My brother in law is an artist and had a pretty ordinary art related job for years. He stuck in there and now he has landed his dream job at Lego and does a lot of 3D stuff doing a lot of the newspaper adverts and even designing the rooms for the Lego hotels. He did this, in his spare time, for example.



Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 30th Aug 2011 19:22 Edited at: 30th Aug 2011 19:25
Dazzag is right. It is the same here in the UK. The best place to work for a decent career is London and people relocate for that reason. Okay London isn't the only place, but where I'd prefer to work doesn't have great opportunities for what I want to do.

I live within commuting distance, but it's still a long trip into London by train, 45mins, an hour if you're unlucky, but hardly unbearable. I live far away enough to get refused work in London and it's annoying because I got a phone call from a PR company thinking I'd be great material for working at their company, my CV is great and they wanted to give me an interview...except there was one concern, where I lived. I explained the commute is no problem for me and that I would be willing to relocate, they wanting more information and told me to email them. 1 week later I receive a reply telling me somebody else got the job. And it's true, you are pretty much expendable. I would loved to have worked PR with them because some of their clients have been game companies, including Bandai-Namco (as a JRPG nut, I could get behind that)


Instead of landing a job I'd enjoy or be good at...since graduation (a little over a year ago) I've worked a total of 3 months and that was for Cash Converters (and I hated it) who found that I wasn't the right kind of person for that job. I applied because 'a' job is better than 'no' job. When I apply for jobs, a lot of the time 50 or more people have applied for the same job, there's a high demand in my area and I've been reaching out to Cambridge too (35 mins on the bus), but the job market here at the moment is still very competitive. It's a hard time for graduates because a degree says, "I'm educated to a high degree", but what people want is somebody experienced and when they're not looking for somebody experienced, it's for a job doesn't need somebody who's "educated to a high degree" but somebody who can do the job and isn't likely to take a better paid job at the first opportunity - I was actually asked about that in my interview for Cash Converters, but at least they asked instead of throwing my application in the bin.

I consider people who have jobs lucky, people who have a job they enjoy, we'll they've hit the jackpot in my opinion. On the brightside, I have spent this time unemployed, I've been able to work on my novel more.


Anyway, on topic, I think I can only echo what has already been said, professionalism isn't about hard work or how many hours you put in, but rather your quality of work. If you overwork yourself, you will not perform as well as you should as your brain (and body) need rest. If anything University should teach you that, I mean, since when has work that's been produced after pulling an all-nighter ever been any good?

Dazzag
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Posted: 30th Aug 2011 19:33
Quote: ""I'm educated to a high degree", but what people want is somebody experienced"
Problem is with the volume of people and the situation at the minute then everyone has been educated to a high degree and lots of them are highly experienced too. Doh. Getting harder and harder to find a job where someone will give you the chance to learn and expand when there are a dozen people who can do everything you need and more. And have been doing it years.

Go your own way I say while you don't really need to worry about money. If you have time to do a novel then that's great (I did the same years ago and still would love to be a published novelist) but why not try out, for example, the mobile app market? The revenue is there and if you have next to no outlay then it's all cream. If nothing works out you still have something to show for it on the app stores. If it does work out you may have the start of a great business.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 30th Aug 2011 21:13 Edited at: 30th Aug 2011 21:15
Quote: "but why not try out, for example, the mobile app market? The revenue is there and if you have next to no outlay then it's all cream. If nothing works out you still have something to show for it on the app stores. If it does work out you may have the start of a great business.
"


I'm not a programmer by trade, just a hobbyist, but spent enough years playing with DBP to want to actually finish a project (in fact I'm working on one right now) and AppGameKit has been tempting the hell out of me. But otherwise, yes, there's things I can do to help myself whilst I'm unemployed, but I'll give the mobile market thing a try and put my skills to use as I've been very tempted myself.

Without trying to get political, the last government set the goal of having 50% of the population having a University level degree and I think that has something to do with it. If too many people have the same level of qualification and skills, it's harder to stand out. Plus, out of that 50% target, how many of those people would be better suited to college courses and apprenticeships? My brother is a chef in a top restaurant in my area and he didn't need a catering degree. The courses he needed could be done alongside working. My sister is looking for an apprenticeship for tattooing, so there was probably little point her having a degree, she's a talented enough artist and is self-taught as far as tattooing goes and she's had friends and family as guinea pigs and having a degree hasn't caught the eyes of any tattoo shops looking for apprentices (hence she's self taught - a portfolio looks better than a degree). I can think of people from University that didn't need to go to University, but did it because that was what schools and 6th forms suggested their best option was. Sorry for the rant, but I think the number of people with degrees is useless...do I need my degree? Well, I was hoping to find work professionally in some form of media industry as PR, journalism or just writing (copywriting, technical author etc. - saw a great technical author job for Unity technologies, but it was located too far for me), so they jobs that ask for a degree. Whether that's the route I take, well who knows, I mean my uncle got his degree in Chemistry, then worked with computers in a Pharmaceutical company hoping to work his way into using his degree and ended up in IT working for IBM and now Saga.

fallen one
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Posted: 30th Aug 2011 21:58 Edited at: 30th Aug 2011 22:02
The thread author is in limited company with his work ethic, as a developer that has the problem of trying to hire people I find it a nightmare, there is little work ethic left in the west, if it wasn't for Asia and the Orient I would find it almost completely impossible to do anything, as westerners are so few on the ground. The west feels like the last days of Rome, the barbarians are knocking on the gate and as the rot has set in the people are pacified with bread and circuses, (welfare and free entertainment), and by welfare, if you don't work for it, its welfare, including student loans, credit on demand, pirate sites, and anything else you didn't work for before you got it.

The games industry right now is what being a club DJ was, and what being a pop star was before that, its the latest in thing, we live in a culture of wannabes, and its actively encouraged, see reality TV shows (oxymoron) like pop idol and Xfactor, in the 1960s if you wanted to be a pop star you paid your dues playing in the pubs and clubs learning your trade till you got signed, now people just go to an open TV show audition for the lottery of instant fame, its in the culture of the west, no body wants to work for a living, they want it now, thats why credit, reality TV, the cult of celebrity and wags are so popular.

People don't live in reality, they live in fantasy, second life alternate online lives, simulation computer games, DJ Rock star guitar hero games, remember when being a guitar hero meant years or WORK practising, not any more, they want it instantly, instant heroship, instant rock god, no work, just buy the computer game, better still, pirate the video game, even less work. Its the rise of the (i) generation, nobody wants to be ordinary anymore, or work or even wait for anything, they want it NOW, and believe they are ENTITLED to it. The video game industry is an attractant to this mindset, its why companies like TGC and others like them can be successful, now anybody can be a game developer with click and play tools. Much in the same way anybody can be a top business man with a tycoon game, or embark in exciting careers and alternate professions with simulation games. Work and leisure now become weisure.

Lets be honest, many leave school don't fancy the dole queue and expect something better than getting your hands dirty, so its off to collage, 3 years living on welfare, I mean student loans, then you leave school, lazily send a few CVs to large studios for your dream job, heavens forbid you should contact small developers and WORK your way up the career ladder before you contacted EA or Rockstar Games, of course you get ignored, blame the job market, sign on the dole, apply for any old job just to shut the parents up from moaning, while trying to maintain your self image of not really being on the dole you indulge on your fantasy career at the tax payers expense, ie making half finished games that never get finished, or writing your play, or writing your pop hit or whatever you do at your pretend career you indulge in to maintain your self image, while still living with your parents till your 30 years old and more. Adults living like children, they even have little strops like children, see the London Riots. Remember when people had self responsibility, you supported yourself, lived in property you payed for, and married the mother of your children.

If a developer was to look on these boards for people to hire, How is an employer to know a developer wants a job, nothing in the signature, clicking the links we see a poor web site, it has them asking, have you actually made a complete game, where are they, are you actually interested in making games, if so you should have a list of them. Do you talk about games, where is your blog. have you entered any games contests, have your worked successfully with others, can you complete a design brief, where is the evidence for this, what volunteer projects have you done, what mods have you worked on, can you actually work with other people, or do you just indulge in game developer onanism, is your games career a complete fantasy.

I can't reinvest my profits from game development back into game projects because finding contractors is such hard work, so I've had to invest it in other businesses. At the moment I want to hire a coder to make a tool that can wrap web pages as native applications using the AppGameKit, but really Im kind of put of bothering because finding contractors as it's such a nightmare. I can sympathise with the original poster because I often find myself doing the work myself leaving me little free time, because it can often be just plain easier than having to deal with finding someone to do the job. I find it laughable to read of people struggling to find games jobs, when one they do so little to actively seek employment, and two, there are loads of games developers jobs, they just are not all at Rockstar Games.


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 31st Aug 2011 00:17
I want a job. I want to work the career ladder, I didn't spend 3 years working hard at University to be unemployed, I understand people go to university because it means they don't have to go to work for three years, but that's not every student, I've had my eye set on my career path for a long time, it's why I worked hard at school and not join my mates in being doofuses, it's why I worked hard in sixth form and spent most of the time in the library and not socialising in the common room and I ended up working hard during my 3 years at University instead of partying like mad, though i'd often be woken up by those who did and not only that, I spent a lot of time doing volunteer work. I established myself as a live performance artist too and published my own articles.

But I'm not a programmer, nor am I an IT professional, I program for fun and my programming skills are below-par, I know how to make games in Dark Basic, but coding beyond that I've struggled with - I could probably learn if I dedicated my time to it, but it's not the goal I've worked towards. My projects are simply self-serving in the sense, I enjoy doing them. My area of knowledge is writing, PR, media and journalism. Areas of employment that are very competitive, but not impossible to get in. Jobs I apply for are capable of utilising my current skills, such as: technical author, writer, admin, secretary, events, journalist, reporter, broadcaster. And I've spent a lot of time going for those jobs, to only find, "sorry, you seen great but you live too far" or "sorry you don't have enough experience" or "sorry, we've already found someone" or "sorry, we're not currently looking for staff".

So, it's not necessarily easy to find work, especially as there's been quite a lot of job cuts in the public sector and private sector and it creates more competition for the smaller jobs you want to use to build your career ladder - admin being the key one. So my aim to building my own office experience has competition. I've expanded my job search beyond my own aims, and I got a job at Cash Converters doing so, I worked very hard and that's what my boss liked about me, but he wouldn't let me sign the contract at the end of the initial 1 month trial, (who then extended it to 3 months) and in the end decided that whilst I put the effort in mixed with the willingness to learn, I wasn't right for the job, even though, I really wanted to keep it. It meant money and it meant stability and it also meant I was getting work experience of some kind, which would help on the next step of the ladder. Work in Cash Converters means I can sell myself as a salesman and somebody capable of valuing a product to a consumer and those were actually the things I was good at there - whilst a stray from my path, but better than nothing - and hey, PR requires salesmanship. Hence my field is still wide, hence next to admin and writer, there's also cleaner and shop assistant.

Being unemployed is a very disheartening process and frankly it's depressing and you feel as though you're useless given all the rejections - I've had my CVs checked, I've gone over my cover letters and discussed how I'm approaching job-seeking and I am told I am not doing anything wrong. I know there's people who are unemployed to claim benefits and have no interest of finding work, but it's not what makes up the entirety of the unemployed, umemployment doesn't mean you're lazy. I don't want to live in my parents' house until I'm 30, the first thing I did once all my work was complete at Uni (aside from sleep) was look for work so me and couple of friends could move in together - once I had to move out of my accommodation, I still didn't have a job, therefore I had to move back home with my parents.

And I consider writing my novel to be productive. It keeps my editing, proofreading and writing skills in tact, but also keeps me creative and most importantly, keeps me sane.

Now it sounds like a lot of moaning, but it isn't intended to be nor am I trying to flame anybody nor is it a sob story, I'm just stating my case as an unemployed loser and offer the perspective of somebody who actually wants a job.

fallen one
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Posted: 31st Aug 2011 03:01 Edited at: 31st Aug 2011 03:17
Ill tell you a story about writing, I used to procrastinate the 'truth' at all times, giving lectures hither and tither to open ears to illuminate all who heard, I found the response most of the time was anger, it seemed people did not want to hear the truth on any level, so I conducted an experiment, I made a blog and everything I would write on it would be a total fabrication, the more extreme the story the better, and the response, people loved it, it was very popular receiving high praise and thank you comments and emails, with thousands of daily visitors, in fact I think if I had kept it up I think I could of got it into the hundreds of thousands. It also attracted a woman who was not only an editor of an online version of a computer games magazine, but also an award winning writer of a novel of her early life, and how she escaped her country to live in America. She was going to start a serious media web site and wanted to hire writers, and, she was interested in 'talents' for the new site. As the blog I wrote was an experiment in tall stories and the public's inductance to BS, I of course played along with her, after all science is science, and my experiments are to be taken very seriously - LOL. In the end the site didn't go through, but if it did, people would of been reading my BS and taking it all in as fact. And that story tells you EVERYTHING you need to know about the media, So I'm offered a media job, have not even spent one day in media education, and every single thing I wrote was made up nonsence, every single word. I bet your tutors didn't teach you that at uni, but they likely never had a paying job in what they teach.

I feel for these kids, going to university, getting in debt for thousands, And unlike every other loan, if you don't pay it, whatever you spent the money on can be sold, and the loan repaid, in part or full, but with student loans, unlike a car or a house, there is nothing to sell to pay back the loan. These people are literally going to be in debt their whole lives. But I cannot say I feel too sorry for them, after all, unlike the old days when students worked through university, studying in the day, and washing dishes at night or mopping the floors in MacDonalds at the weekends, then the obligatory summer jobs working in factories or picking fruit, or god willing and you was lucky enough, actually getting a job doing what you are training in, all be it at the bottom end of the market for some start up company. No these new students are too good to work through uni, after all the whole world is waiting for them on graduation, with high powered graduate jobs, the debt will soon be payed back. I'm sorry but you've been sold faulty goods, and unfortunately I think some of you are really going to find out the hard way.


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 31st Aug 2011 05:01 Edited at: 31st Aug 2011 05:03
Funny experiment. How does it make me feel? Not that surprised, I think it's not that difficult to fool people if you can BS them well enough and to be honest, journalists can be the greatest BSers in the world, right up there alongside politicians. I read the news at times thinking, "what a load of twoddle" because my 'BS' sirens are going off, example (Daily Mail): claim that Google Street View will invade people's privacy with Spy cameras that stalkers would also be able to use to spy on you. I laughed out loud reading it. That's a sign of journalist who didn't do their research(and one lacking in braincells). A quick go on Google Street view will show that they're just photographs of people's houses. For a stalker to even see your house, they've already succeeded in stalking you. Yes, I did sit there thinking, "I could have covered Google Street View a lot better". Unfortunately, that's the way of the world, the right man for the job ain't always hired and honesty can put you at a disadvantage. I tell people to not always trust what they read or see in the news, because there's so many reasons why it can be inaccurate - intentionally or unintentionally.

Quote: "These people are literally going to be in debt their whole lives. But I cannot say I feel too sorry for them, after all, unlike the old days when students worked through university, studying in the day, and washing dishes at night or mopping the floors in MacDonalds at the weekends, then the obligatory summer jobs working in factories or picking fruit, or perhaps if you was lucky enough, actually getting a job doing what you are training in, all be it at the bottom end of the market for some start up company."


I tried the holiday jobs, managed to do cleaning old folk's homes to cover people's holidays, which helped bring more cash (£7 an hour too), but term time was for Uni work and volunteering. Had my own free time too, obviously, as nothing says you can't enjoy yourself.

But I know what you mean, I know folks had their part time jobs, others volunteered...some managed both. I know the lazy type too - I don't judge badly people who don't do any work beside their studying, but not everybody even does at least that. But they're the ones who don't last, except those who put in minimum effort to pass ( here's to the guy who spend 70% of his time stalking the sugarbabes and obsessing about trains over the 3 years and barely touching his dissertation, which he's had to redo every year I was there).

Jeku
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Posted: 31st Aug 2011 05:56
I understand how hard it is to find a job, but I honestly feel that once someone has some experience in the game industry, then doors start opening. Maybe it's because I was fortunate to be born in a country where there are many jobs for programmers, but eventually the market closed and all of the large gaming companies in Vancouver were laying people off by the hundreds (including me). Finally after EA laid me off I was fortunate to get back to the grind by working at Nokia as a senior web engineer. It wasn't the *game* industry, but it was real money, and better pay at that. When I got restless and wanted to get back into games, I couldn't find work in the Vancouver gaming industry, so I had to jump in my car full of my personal belongings and drive to San Francisco to a new social gaming job. Sometimes all it takes is looking outside your bubble, outside of your backyard, and some real persistence. I even hired a video game recruiter who landed me several interviews. I'm fairly sure there are game recruiters in Europe too, so people here shouldn't get too disheartened when they can't personally find a company that will give them a chance. I really think that once you have a few years under your belt then it all gets easier.

The DAY I started my new job in San Fran, I was getting emails almost daily by other companies wanted to steal me. Things can start moving once you accept change and force yourself to get outside of your comfort zone.


Software Engineer - Metamoki
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Posted: 31st Aug 2011 09:37 Edited at: 31st Aug 2011 09:39
With regard to finding contractors, I think in this sort of environment, it's all about forging relationships. I am in a similar boat in that, I would like to cooperate with people, but I wouldn't be able to find them. And the reason why I can't find them is because I don't spend enough time forging relationships.

I have no doubt if I spent hours a day on various forums chatting and following people and their blogs, I'd get a good idea of who is (a) skilled, (b) dedicated and (c) interested in work. But who, who actually does this for a living, has got time for that?

@Sep - Which industry did you study for / aim to get into then?

Wolf
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Posted: 31st Aug 2011 12:08
Quote: "People don't live in reality, they live in fantasy, second life alternate online lives, simulation computer games, DJ Rock star guitar hero games, remember when being a guitar hero meant years or WORK practising, not any more, they want it instantly, instant heroship, instant rock god, no work, just buy the computer game, better still, pirate the video game, even less work. Its the rise of the (i) generation, nobody wants to be ordinary anymore, or work or even wait for anything, they want it NOW, and believe they are ENTITLED to it. The video game industry is an attractant to this mindset, its why companies like TGC and others like them can be successful, now anybody can be a game developer with click and play tools. Much in the same way anybody can be a top business man with a tycoon game, or embark in exciting careers and alternate professions with simulation games. Work and leisure now become weisure."


I don't really get that. It sounds like something I would agree with but something about it is odd.

First of all, playing guitar hero is not comparable to actually playing guitar. Its something entirely different. Its just a fun party game and not related to standing on a stage as a bandmember playing some songs.
People who live in fantasy second live games are actually a minority (didn't even know second live is still around) and do usually have social issues.

Quote: "Lets be honest, many leave school don't fancy the dole queue and expect something better than getting your hands dirty, so its off to collage, 3 years living on welfare, I mean student loans, then you leave school, lazily send a few CVs to large studios for your dream job, heavens forbid you should contact small developers and WORK your way up the career ladder before you contacted EA or Rockstar Games, of course you get ignored, blame the job market, sign on the dole, apply for any old job just to shut the parents up from moaning, while trying to maintain your self image of not really being on the dole you indulge on your fantasy career at the tax payers expense, ..."


If these people actually exist...they are stupid. And not worth mentioning. And I can't believe that there are many of them out there?

Quote: "Remember when people had self responsibility, you supported yourself, lived in property you payed for, and married the mother of your children."


Something perfectly normal, perfeclty normal people do...as much as now as always. Nothing really changed there. Look outside...houses, familys, normal people with jobs. Folks that are in their 30s and live together with their parents...I don't even know such a guy.

Quote: "If a developer was to look on these boards for people to hire, How is an employer to know a developer wants a job, nothing in the signature, clicking the links we see a poor web site, it has them asking, have you actually made a complete game, where are they, are you actually interested in making games, if so you should have a list of them. Do you talk about games, where is your blog. have you entered any games contests, have your worked successfully with others, can you complete a design brief, where is the evidence for this, what volunteer projects have you done, what mods have you worked on, can you actually work with other people, or do you just indulge in game developer onanism, is your games career a complete fantasy."


Everything in this paragraph is just wrong.

1. What makes you think that studios scout this forum to look for employees? This is a hobbyist forum. I guess I can speak for most of us if I say that we are having a little fun with gamecreation in our sparetime and that only few of us (most of them most likely a bit naive and still underaged) are actually thinking about a career in game design. None of us are trying to establish some kind of portfolio here they can show to a company later.
(("talk about games on a blog"...yeah, we need more useless wannabe-gamecritc blogs.))
The Polycount forum actually has a board for people that look for jobs. But TGC boards are really for us amateurs...a little fun, thats all.



-Wolf

I make serious coffee - so strong it wakes up the neighbors.
http://serygalacaffeine.deviantart.com/
Twitter:@Serygala
Seppuku Arts
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20
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Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 31st Aug 2011 13:10
Quote: "
@Sep - Which industry did you study for / aim to get into then?
"


Essentially I am a writer at heart. Loved doing it ever since I was a wee lil kid and always set my heart on being one. I think it's hard to be taken seriously saying, "I wanna be a writer", but I've opened up my career path broadly, perhaps too broadly, but I am looking to get into the media industry, so PR, journalism and writing have been my main focuses since leaving Uni and my main CV is geared towards that. I try to avoid being fussy. There's different types of writers for different kinds of industries too and my CV has gone out to them too.

However, writing for games or even the media surrounding video games would be fantastic because it combines 2 things I love. The nearest game company to me is Jagex and they hire writers and I have tried them - they were looking for a writer not too long ago for the Transformers MMORPG they're working on, but sadly not an inexperienced graduate writer but one with 5+ years experience in the industry. I keep trying though, who knows what opportunities may arise?

But Fallout, if your Zombie game needed a plot...well, you know who to ask.

Fallout
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Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 31st Aug 2011 13:32
Hey, I may take you up on that, if it does need a plot. At the moment it's going down the sandbox route.

I find it ridiculous that writers are hired based on industrial experience. You wouldn't hire a portrait painter because he'd done it for 5 years. You'd do it based on examples of work. The same with any trademan. You don't care how long they've been trading for - you care about testimonials (and price!).

As an employer looking for a writer, I would read your CV to make sure you're not bobby waste of space, or Mr thicky-2-shoes, and then I would look at portfolio work. I would ask for concise examples I could read quickly, and compare them to my requirements for style etc. Then I'd call you to interview and make sure you were someone employable, and not a crazed loon.

But I guess they can't be arsed. They just want the save bet of industry experience and would be happy with a slightly above average writer.

Anyway, the reason I asked is because, I like writing. It's not a passion, but if it was and I was unemployed, I would be writing a novel. I know getting a novel published if you're new on the scene is as difficult as getting signed to a record label if you're a new band, but it doesn't seem like wasted effort if you enjoy it. So where's your novel? Where is it?!?!

Wolf
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Joined: 8th Nov 2007
Location: Luxemburg
Posted: 31st Aug 2011 13:35
I've been thinking about writing too and I have some halffinished short stories on my harddrive. Maybe I can get them in some magazine in the near future we'll see.

I, however, can only see it as a part time job I might earn some bucks on the side...maybe get 2 or 3 novels out aswell. But really writing for a lifetime? I'm not the type for that.



-Wolf

I make serious coffee - so strong it wakes up the neighbors.
http://serygalacaffeine.deviantart.com/
Twitter:@Serygala
Fallout
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Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 31st Aug 2011 13:41
I think writing is very similar to game development. Game development is better (in my opinion) than being a musician or painter or many other art forms, because you can create an entire world. You encapsulate a load of different art forms, and craft something from your own imagination which has a lot of depth and substance.

I see writing as almost as good. With just a word processor you can create entire world with endless detail. Plus it's significantly easier (maybe not to be good, but to produce something) and takes far less time. The only negatives are, its simplicity makes it far more competitive, and it's not interactive.

I see movies in the same way, except they're probably even more difficult than video games.

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