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Geek Culture / The Microsoft era is coming to an end

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TheComet
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 16:24
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I've just about had it with Microsoft. Windows XP was a great experience and so was Windows 7, but Microsoft isn't a company driven by innovation, it's domination was driven by the company's alleged monopolistic and anti-competitive business practices which supposedly killed any competition and made it the market leader.

The future of computing almost certainly lies in open source software. Microsoft has seen this upcoming wave as well and is trying to counter it by forcing the manufacturers to lock the BIOS so it can only run signed operating systems, which pretty much means that your machine will only be able to run Windows. More information about that can be found here : http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/23/ms_denies_uefi_lock_in/

This leads me to the company Valve. Gabe Newell, managing director of Valve, has recently begun to port Half Life 2 to Linux. A lot of issues such as bottlenecks and inefficient drivers arose, causing the game to run at merely 6 fps. Gabe Newell worked hard together with the open source community to crush these bugs and bottlenecks. The game now runs faster on Linux than on Windows (16% faster to be exact). Gabe Newell's contributions to this huge performance increase will of course benefit any future games made for Linux.

Further, Gabe Newell referred to Windows 8 as a "catastrophe", driving Valve to embrace Linux : http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/07/steams-newell-windows-8-catastrophe-driving-valve-to-embrace-linux/

Guys, cross platform development is the future of game creation. Microsoft is sinking as we speak, it's time to jump ship and embrace the future. Or, you can stay back on your restricted Windows machine with a horrible Metro UI and closed software.

I dearly hope TGC sees this opportunity and ports their products so they work with Linux, it would be a very wise move on their part.

Now I know that a huge discussion about "DirectX 11 vs OpenGL 3" is going to commence and before you say anything about that I'd just like to say that there's one big thing that DirectX doesn't have: It's an open source community. The potential of OpenGL is so much greater than DirectX, all it needs is a little push (which Gabe Newell has already done actually).

Now, discuss.

TheComet

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bitJericho
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 17:02
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Here here! I'm super excited for windows 8, but I'd be more excited to see linux take over!

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Van B
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 17:18
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I tend to drag my heels when it comes to OS's, I get used to one, and I don't see a whole lot of benefit in upgrading. These days, well lets say, since WindowsXP - we have been forced to upgrade, for new gfx cards, for DX10,11, for memory support, for hardware issues... but really there is no real tangible improvement. My main PC is a dual boot XP and Win7, and the Win7 install is only there for gaming. All my development is still done in XP. To be honest, I'm not sure I have to change, nobody has ever given me enough justification to go full Win7. Win8, well I don't even count that as an OS, I want nothing to do with it.

Personally, I can't see Windows suffering much in the desktop market, it'll always be the top dog for desktop PC's. But for tablets, I think that Win8 will be torn a new one, by alternative OS'es like Linux. They are trying to do too much with mobile OS's these days, and Microsoft will be as bad, or worse than everyone else. People will very quickly get sick of Win8 and look for alternatives, and that's especially true now that Steam is heading for linux. I mean, these higher powered tablets, and the Razor gaming tablet thing will use the cheapest and most accessible OS available, and that's unlikely to be Win8.

Everyone wants a bit of the mobile gaming market, but there isn't even a second standard, there's iOS, and about a dozen alternatives. If those alternatives concentrated on 1 single OS, invested in it, supported it, then the marketplace might be very different by now - imagine having global software support, software that will work on better hardware as it's developed. It's like that scene from Oliver, and Microsoft is Oliver, begging Apple for 'some more', with it's hungry little tablet in it's hand . If we look at Microsofts track record with mobile... well their MP3 player didn't last long, and nobody really uses their mobiles... for me, getting a Microsoft mobile would be like asking a charicatre artist to do my passport photo.

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Quik
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 17:19
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Quote: "The future of computing almost certainly lies in open source software. Microsoft has seen this upcoming wave as well and is trying to counter it by forcing the manufacturers to lock the BIOS so it can only run signed operating systems, which pretty much means that your machine will only be able to run Windows. More information about that can be found here "


Well, here's what I think about this... that "microsoft" is a complete dick, but i dont care personally since I don't have the knowledge nor the patience to use Linux.

And I will continue to use Windows, because it's so simple to use. Windows, or potentially Mac is what i roll with. Also, considering Steve jobs has done A LOT for charity, i would probably keep supporting him just for that.

In the end of the day, i certanly think Linux needs a lot more love, but not more love than any other OS. I certanly think that Microsoft is being a complete dick aswell, with that move, and i am NOT a supporter of it :/



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SpyDaniel
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 17:28
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I'm sure you could just edit the bios to remove this limitation or just buy a decent old motherboard that doesn't have this feature.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 17:30 Edited at: 6th Aug 2012 17:32
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Quote: "Well, here's what I think about this... that "microsoft" is a complete dick, but i dont care personally since I don't have the knowledge nor the patience to use Linux."


Here's the thing, linux for the standard user is wayyyy easier to use. Installing and removing apps is a one click process. Download a new app from a site? It installs itself along with any dependencies and stays up to date.

Just getting it running and fixing any problems is where linux lacks, and where more support and time will alleviate.

That said, Windows with the windows app store can now compete on that front too. Windows 8 metro looks and works amazingly well. I'm really pumped to try out the app store and maybe learn to make a few myself. The upgrade is only 40 bucks even if you only have XP, so it'll be a drop in the bucket for most people.

As for UEFI, I think it's despicable.

Ubuntu's come a long way but is not quite there on the ease of use front. If someone could come in and make most/all things easily configurable and more importantly, fixable, via gui, linux could be top dog.

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Quik
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 17:36
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Quote: "Here's the thing, linux for the standard user is wayyyy easier to use."


Weird, considering i didnt understand a single thing from the Linux OS course I took at school.



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Kezzla
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 17:45
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I use windows because my workflow is faster with it. If it were faster elsewhere I would go elsewhere.

I know people who have been foreseeing Microsoft's doom for years. I've heard it many times over the years called a sinking ship among other ryming insults with more t's(windows ME cough,cough) These people tend to remind me of the 2012 doomsayers.

I only upgraded from xp to win7 because my laptop came with it, i decided it wasn't so bad and so got it for my pc too. It will be a long time and an unmissable change in hardware or system that convinces me to change again and when I do its not that bad because I wait for a good version. 95,98,ME,xp,vista,7 <upgrades in bold


so like 2012 doom I watch for Microsoft's demise with interest but I wont be holding my breath.

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ionstream
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 17:47
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As someone who has lived through many a "Windows is over, this is the year Linux REALLY takes off" threads, something tells me ol' Microsoft is gonna be juuuuuust fine.

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TheComet
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 17:51
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Quote: "something tells me ol' Microsoft is gonna be juuuuuust fine."


That may be the case for consumers, yes. For game developers though Windows 8 (so far) is a nightmare! As Quik said, locking the BIOS was a very dickish move on their part, and they will continue to do such moves because that's what Microsoft is good at.

TheComet

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mr Handy
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 17:57
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OMG. Another "Die, Windows, die!" thread

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Dark Frager
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 17:58
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Quote: "Microsoft has seen this upcoming wave as well and is trying to counter it by forcing the manufacturers to lock the BIOS so it can only run signed operating systems,"


Nope. I am 100% that when that happens, within 2 weeks someone will crack it.

Plus, I don't care. I hate Macs, I don't use Linux, so this is just fine for me. Unless Microsoft turns into a Nazi party and does something insane I have nothing to worry about.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 18:18 Edited at: 6th Aug 2012 18:26
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Quote: "Nope. I am 100% that when that happens, within 2 weeks someone will crack it. "


Unless there's a really novel way to crack it, that won't happen. It would require either a hardware mod, a software hack for each invididual different piece of hardware, or stolen keys and you own way to compile (maybe a compilation step isn't needed?), sign and push out the software.

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Quik
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 18:30
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Quote: " or stolen keys "


Keygenerators*



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Dar13
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 18:39 Edited at: 6th Aug 2012 18:50
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Quote: "Nope. I am 100% that when that happens, within 2 weeks someone will crack it.

Plus, I don't care. I hate Macs, I don't use Linux, so this is just fine for me. Unless Microsoft turns into a Nazi party and does something insane I have nothing to worry about."

UEFI SecureBoot is not easy to crack. Luckily, at least for x86 computers, OEMs and hardware manufacturers are recommended to allow the users to disable SecureBoot. For other platforms(notably ARM), manufacturers and OEMs are required to *not* allow SecureBoot to be disabled, thus requiring any operating system on that hardware to be signed by Microsoft/Verisign. Ubuntu and Redhat are paying Microsoft $99 in order to have their operating system signed and be able to run on Windows 8 OEM machines with no end-user complications(generating your own SecureBoot key, yadda yadda yadda).

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bitJericho
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 18:43 Edited at: 6th Aug 2012 18:45
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No, I imagine, I haven't researched it all that well, but if I were to guess, each manufacture will have a private key, kind of like how blu ray works, and that private key is used to sign the boot loader code that is acceptable for that particular motherboard. In order to use Microsoft Windows, that boot loader will have to make sure the windows kernal is unmodified by checking windows signature. Once the windows kernal loads, all bets are off, there's not much you can do, the OS is loading.

The way to hack it would be to create your own kernal that is signed with the microsoft private key. It will be available... eventually... and will be illegal to use in the US.

Otherwise you have to hack the individual firmware on the hardware, that'll change from board to board, but should be legal in the US depending on how it's done.

For standard PC hardware, most manufacturers will let disable it or get your own key. For MS arm tablets, that's off the table, the MS agreement forbids it.

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Dark Frager
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 18:48
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I know it's not going to be easy, but I know for a fact that no matter in what way it's done, the limitations will be removed. Technology is way too advanced these days for someone to just simply limit which OS you are using, whether it be a Million Dollar corporation, or a single person.

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Dar13
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 18:57
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Quote: "I know it's not going to be easy, but I know for a fact that no matter in what way it's done, the limitations will be removed. Technology is way too advanced these days for someone to just simply limit which OS you are using, whether it be a Million Dollar corporation, or a single person."

Sure the limitations may be removed but if the process of installing Linux or an alternative operating system is too technical, then the average computer user won't even attempt to try Linux thus locking them in to Windows. All Microsoft has to do is make it hard to switch and they win.

@Jerico2day
Quote: "There’s nothing stopping computers from also shipping with Ubuntu’s certificate. Linux distributions can also publish their own certificate and ask users to install it – or ask them to disable secure boot entirely. Fedora will be paying $99 for Microsoft’s signing services, so Fedora will install on any Windows 8-certified PC with no additional configuration required. Other Linux distributions could also take this route."

You have to pay Microsoft/Verisign $99 in order for the operating system loader to be installed on Windows 8 OEM machines without any additional steps(like installing certificates, etc).

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bitJericho
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 19:00
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Add to that, a major benefit of linux is that you can compile it yourself. That'll stop a lot of hardcore hobbyists if they have to pay 99 bucks. And why use verisign anyway? It's not like you can use 3rd party verification when the OS isn't even booted! It's just a moneygrab. Verisign probably paid heavily for the priviledge.

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Dark Frager
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 19:01 Edited at: 6th Aug 2012 19:01
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Quote: "then the average computer user"


There you go. For an average computer user, this is all relatively pointless since all they would do would be use the internet. However for developers, modelers, software engineers this could be quite aggravating. Microsoft can only make it hard to switch for a few of us, not for the whole userbase

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bitJericho
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 19:09
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Quote: "There you go. For an average computer user, this is all relatively pointless since all they would do would be use the internet. However for developers, modelers, software engineers this could be quite aggravating. Microsoft can only make it hard to switch for a few of us, not for the whole userbase "


And regular users want to surf without threat of viruses. Linux is earning a very good reputation in that regard. However, if you can't install Ubuntu from within Windows with a UEFI system, that'll lock out a huge majority of newb linux users.

And trust me, the newb computer user is Linux's best, most appreciative, customers.

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Dar13
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 19:10
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@Jerico
Hardcore hobbyists can install (and create for that matter) their own certificates into the SecureBoot system. Especially if they can compile Linux from source reliably.

@Dark Frager
Quote: "Microsoft can only make it hard to switch for a few of us, not for the whole userbase "

I don't really understand this statement. If it's difficult for the more advanced computer users(software developers/engineers) then how is it any easier for anybody else?

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bitJericho
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 19:12 Edited at: 6th Aug 2012 19:14
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Quote: "Hardcore hobbyists can install (and create for that matter) their own certificates into the SecureBoot system. "


Not on tablets. And what about when Windows 9 rolls around? Are the terms going to be loosened, or more likely, tightened?

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Dark Frager
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 19:13 Edited at: 6th Aug 2012 19:17
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If I'm not too much computer-savvy I'm not sure if I would notice the difference between different operating system. As an average user, all I need would be the basics, like a web browser, anti-virus software and the preinstalled programs.

Quote: "And regular users want to surf without threat of viruses. Linux is earning a very good reputation in that regard"


I don't know much about Windows 8 but I'm guessing the security is the same as always so I don't see where the threat of viruses is coming from unless I am deliberately going on fishy websites. Plus most modern browsers give you a warning when the website has malware or etc..

EDIT: (Posted after Dar13)

Quote: " I don't really understand this statement. If it's difficult for the more advanced computer users(software developers/engineers) then how is it any easier for anybody else? "


Assuming I'm an average computer user, if microsoft said "You can only use Windows now" I, not having the ability to crack the software, would obviously be locked to windows unless I buy a new computer or get someone to do it for me. However, if I have the skill to do it, then noone can stop me, that's what I mean.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 19:16 Edited at: 6th Aug 2012 19:18
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Quote: "I don't know much about Windows 8 but I'm guessing the security is the same as always so I don't see where the threat of viruses is coming from unless I am deliberately going on fishy websites. Plus most modern browsers give you a warning when the website has malware or etc.."


Perhaps so. MS still has a very bad reputation, one that it no longer deserves in my opinion. But viruses still exist for Windows where almost none exist for linux. Newbie users are well aware of that fact. Ask anyone who's heard of linux and they have heard "it doesn't get viruses". Give them a cd so they can install and try out ubuntu straight from windows and I bet you they'll try it.

That scares the crap out of MS

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Dar13
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 19:19
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Quote: "Not on tablets. And what about when Windows 9 rolls around?"

Yeah you're right. Totally forgot about the tablets. That is anti-competitive behavior in its purest form.

Quote: "I don't know much about Windows 8 but I'm guessing the security is the same as always so I don't see where the threat of viruses is coming from unless I am deliberately going on fishy websites."

Flash is not very secure, you can get infected from playing a simple flash game. Also, some computer users pirate movies/music and get viruses that way.

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Quik
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 19:21
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Quote: "And trust me, the newb computer user is Linux's best, most appreciative, customers."

not from my experience :S 40raging class people says otherwise



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Dark Frager
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 19:23
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Quote: "some computer users pirate movies/music and get viruses that way."


That's the user's fault. Not the software's.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 19:35
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Quote: "not from my experience :S 40raging class people says otherwise"


I would never trust a computer class. I've been in one, I've seen what goes on there

And anyway, if it works off the bat, people love ubuntu. But it has to work. Linux needs work on that.

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Quik
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 19:36
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I see no difference between the two. Have used both



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bitJericho
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 19:48
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Quote: "I see no difference between the two. Have used both"


Between windows 7 and 8? I think the start screen is better on 8. I really like how responsive it is. There's a few nice touches in windows 8 like copying/pasting files, particularly from the network. Overwriting files. IE10 is nice to use but as stated before is a bit buggy and not all sites support it. ISO mounting is built-in. Metro apps look really nice. App store is coming. Cloud storage for those who are into that sort of thing. Family tracking, great for a simple overview of what your kids are upto. Task manager is wonderful.

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Quik
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 20:09
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NOooo, I meant Ubuntu and linux =P



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Dar13
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 20:11
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Quote: "That's the user's fault. Not the software's."

I agree, but that's a potential vector for a virus infection. And it really applies to any files a user downloads.

Quote: "ISO mounting is built-in."

This will probably be the only reason I upgrade to Windows 8. Daemon Tools Lite is nice, but it's just one more utility I wish I didn't have to install on every time I install Windows.

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Airslide
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 20:35 Edited at: 6th Aug 2012 20:36
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If Linux became as popular as Windows, you can bet it'll get the same kind of attention from malware creators that Windows does.

At any rate, I highly doubt that the "Microsoft era" is coming to an end. They are very, very heavily entrenched in the market, and Linux doesn't have the commercial power behind it to really push its way to the everyday consumer. Even if Windows 8 is a flop, Windows users who dislike it will probably just stay with Windows 7. Some people may switch to Linux or Macintosh, but when Vista came out and was publicized as a flop (note: I liked it at the time) I didn't personally know anyone who switched to either, they just kept XP.
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Melancholic
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 22:02
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I am amazed that Microsoft thinks they have the right to tell you what you can and cannot do with your own hardware; they’re turning into the next Apple.

Quote: "If Linux became as popular as Windows, you can bet it'll get the same kind of attention from malware creators that Windows does."


Of course, but Unix is also more secure by design


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Quik
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 22:05
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Quote: "I am amazed that Microsoft thinks they have the right to tell you what you can and cannot do with your own hardware; "


Well, if you buy it, and you know thats the case then yes, they do have the right - wether we like it or not



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ionstream
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 22:12
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Quote: "Luckily, at least for x86 computers, OEMs and hardware manufacturers are recommended to allow the users to disable SecureBoot. "


They are required to have the ability to disable secure boot.

Quote: "Keygenerators*"


Keygenerators have absolutely nothing to do with the way this kind of security works.

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Melancholic
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 22:22 Edited at: 6th Aug 2012 22:25
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Quote: "Well, if you buy it, and you know thats the case then yes, they do have the right - wether we like it or not"


They may be able to get away with it in the eyes of the law, but think about it, if you buy a motherboard, a company that has nothing to do with the motherboard manufacturer/distributer is trying to tell you what you can and cannot do with that motherboard. That is preposterous. This is exactly the sort of anti-competitive behavior that has gotten Microsoft fined in the past and i damn well hope they get much more than a slap on the wrist this time; we have anti-competitive behavior laws for a reason.

EDIT: Thinking about it, if Microsoft didn’t put any security on the boot loader, would WUBI and such programs work?


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Quik
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 22:42
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Quote: "Keygenerators have absolutely nothing to do with the way this kind of security works."


If there's a key involved, then i pretty much think a keygen will get past the key.



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TheComet
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 22:50
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Quote: "NOooo, I meant Ubuntu and linux =P"


Ubuntu is linux, or did I misunderstand you completely?

Quote: "If Linux became as popular as Windows, you can bet it'll get the same kind of attention from malware creators that Windows does."


Yes but there's no way it could harm a Linux system as badly as it can harm a Windows system. It wouldn't be able to access much without permission, and even if the user does "accidentally" give it permission, it's impossible for the malware to change any system files. The worst thing that can happen on Linux is losing your /usr folder or something. Windows on the other hand is so stupid that it allows a program to format the C:\ drive... Seriously, a program can do anything on a Windows machine.

Quote: "They may be able to get away with it in the eyes of the law, but think about it, if you buy a motherboard, a company that has nothing to do with the motherboard manufacturer/distributer is trying to tell you what you can and cannot do with that motherboard. That is preposterous. This is exactly the sort of anti-competitive behavior that has gotten Microsoft fined in the past and i damn well hope they get much more than a slap on the wrist this time; we have anti-competitive behavior laws for a reason."


Nicely said.

Quote: "EDIT: Thinking about it, if Microsoft didn’t put any security on the boot loader, would WUBI and such programs work?"


From what I understand it would work. It would install the OS without trouble and that should allow you to boot from it on restart. If the BIOS is locked though I don't think it would work anymore unless Ubuntu is signed as well.

TheComet

Your mod has been erased by a signature, please reduce him [overall] to no larger than 120 kg please.
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ionstream
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 22:56
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It doesn't. It's not a key you type in. Google "public key cryptography."

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Quik
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 23:00
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I was quoting jerichos post:
Quote: ", or stolen keys and you own way to compile (maybe a compilation step isn't needed?), sign and push out the software.
"


And answering to that, not sure how you could've missed that but..



Whose eyes are those eyes?
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 23:40
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See... This is what greed leads to. Greed is never good. Companies that the public rely on become greedy, ruining the way people do stuff. Greed is WRONG. MS better get their act together.
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Quik
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 23:42
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Quote: "Greed is WRONG"


Since when did the world turn black and white. Greed is not WRONG. Greed can be a very good thing, it's all a matter of situation and perspective.



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bitJericho
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Posted: 6th Aug 2012 23:59 Edited at: 7th Aug 2012 00:05
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Quote: "I was quoting jerichos post"


Yes but I'm talking private keys for use in private key cryptography. Generating a private key (without it being outright stolen) is very difficult with a keygen

Here's neat little article about such things that might help to explain how it works:

http://www.myce.com/news/will-ps3-hacking-without-a-usb-dongle-finally-be-a-reality-38284/

Here's a better one

http://kotaku.com/5723105/hacker-claims-to-have-the-ps3s-front-door-keys

So yeah it took quite some time for the key to become available. Now imagine people having to wait a similar length for each new motherboard or device that comes out! Most devices except the most popular simply won't be hacked at all.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 00:09
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Quik, give me an example of when greed is good. Greed is wanting more when you already have a lot and don't need more. As they say, how much above need is greed? Not much.
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Quik
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 00:31
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So, if I have a lot of money, and want more, that's a bad thing for me and my family?



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bitJericho
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 00:33
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Profit at the expense of progress is greed.

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Quik
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 00:37
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Quote: "Greed is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. It is applied to a markedly high desire for and pursuit of wealth, status, and power."


If this is greed, then i'd say Steve is not very greedy, considering he is activly supporting charitys with his earnings.


This is all part of buisness, and I would hardly blame it on greed, that seems quite silly imo. I'm sure, if my dad could gain access to ALL painting jobs (house painting etc), and monopolize it, he certanly, without a doubt would.
While, as I said previously, it's a complete dick move, it's just plain and simple buisness we're talking here.



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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 7th Aug 2012 00:38 Edited at: 7th Aug 2012 00:40
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Ok, yah, say you and your family have plenty of money. Enough to support you and more. Don't try to get more money unless you really do need it. Like say you were poor, being greedy would seem rather acceptable. But if you're doing financially well in this example, there is no need for greed.

And besides, most people that are just like "I want more" just look like complete you know whats. Take for example Apple and Microsoft. See where I'm going with this? For instance... Look at our economy... Wars, whatever... Just all roots down to greed. Wouldn't you agree?

Edit:

Ok, I see how he's working hard to support the charities then, but don't do it at the expense of the public.
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