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Geek Culture / GameGuru and DBPro

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Clonkex
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Posted: 17th Feb 2015 01:40
Quote: "'Cough' "Coming Soon... 'Cough'"


I never said it had the extension system yet. My exact words:

Quote: "As soon as AppGameKit gets fully fleshed-out 3D functions like DBPro has and its extension system DBPro will lose a lot of its advantages."


I'm saying that DBPro currently has quite a few advantages, but when AppGameKit gets better 3D and its extension system DBPro won't be as attractive any more and not worth updating.

Quote: "FPSC = DBPro = err DBPro"


Yeah I know that, but what's your point?

Quote: "or was the FPSC source code in C++?"


No.

Quote: "Wait, GameGuru is written in DBP?"


You didn't know that? Huh, though everyone knew that... GameGuru is FPSC Reloaded, and FPSC Reloaded is based on the FPSC x9 source code, which was written in DBPro.

MrValentine
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Posted: 17th Feb 2015 02:12
Quote: "I never said it had the extension system yet. My exact words:"


I was doing a [Eating my noodles, ghuhghxklgrjhff Coming soon ghusngvabkjtnk] but instead wrote Cough Cough...

If the extensions [Likely only for PC as it says] are as good as those of DBPro, then I am sold, but the question is, How Long before it matches DBPro...

Clonkex
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Posted: 17th Feb 2015 03:56
Quote: "I was doing a [Eating my noodles, ghuhghxklgrjhff Coming soon ghusngvabkjtnk] but instead wrote Cough Cough..."


I have even less idea what you're going on about now

Quote: "Likely only for PC as it says"


Where does it say this?

Quote: "but the question is, How Long before it matches DBPro..."


In terms of 3D, not sure. In terms of the extension system... as soon as they add it

MrValentine
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Posted: 17th Feb 2015 04:08
Quote: "I have even less idea what you're going on about now "


When one eats and someone states something that takes them by surprise or shock...

Quote: "Where does it say this?"


In that picture...

Quote: "In terms of 3D, not sure. In terms of the extension system... as soon as they add it "


So PhysX, LUA, Enhanced Animations, STYX sort of thing... (hint-hint)

Clonkex
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Posted: 17th Feb 2015 04:57
Quote: "In that picture..."


*fail*



Quote: "So PhysX, LUA, Enhanced Animations, STYX sort of thing... (hint-hint)"


Oh, well if you're going to count all the 3rd-party plugins that already exist for DBPro, then no, AppGameKit will take some time to reach that level.

Dar13
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Posted: 17th Feb 2015 06:01
I thought FPSC:R was switching over to C++ due to performance issues? Or was that just a rumor?

Indicium
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Posted: 17th Feb 2015 17:14
Quote: " STYX sort of thing"


lol
MrValentine
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Posted: 18th Feb 2015 03:13
Doesn't make sense though lol, and those are first party extensions...

Enjoying my stay over in London, party was fun, food was good, company was superb, got a little drunk... and I am now involved with a popular band, will set up gigs for them in the north soon good times

Clonkex
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Posted: 18th Feb 2015 04:19
Quote: "I thought FPSC:R was switching over to C++ due to performance issues? Or was that just a rumor?"


No. Well, a lot of the more performance-intensive code (like the AI pathfinding) is C++, but it all plugs into DBPro. The vast majority of the code is DBPro, if I'm not mistaken.

Quote: "Doesn't make sense though lol, and those are first party extensions..."


I do wish you'd quote what you're replying to. I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you referring to my picture with the red arrows?

MrValentine
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Posted: 18th Feb 2015 08:19
What is the opposite of first party?

Van B
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Posted: 18th Feb 2015 10:13
Well first party would suggest work or specific features that the original developers have added to an existing system, so the exact polar opposite of that would be a pineapple.

I am the one who knocks...
BatVink
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Posted: 18th Feb 2015 12:09
Technically, the opposite of first party (supplier) is second party (consumer). The third party is an accessory to the transaction.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 18th Feb 2015 12:48
I'd have thought that the exact opposite of first party is everything other than first party, i.e. simply not first party.



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BatVink
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Posted: 18th Feb 2015 12:59
Quote: "I'd have thought that the exact opposite of first party is everything other than first party, i.e. simply not first party."

So VanB is right, it's a pineapple.

On that theory you could say the opposite of a square is a circle, the opposite of gold is purple, the opposite of A is H, and the opposite of a shark is a kangaroo.

Opportunity for a question to the maths professor. This is not being antagonistic, I'm intrigued...
does that mean the opposite of 1 is any number that is not 1? I guess you could write a thesis on that question.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
Clonkex
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Posted: 18th Feb 2015 13:33
Quote: "What is the opposite of first party?"


Hhh.... you seem to continuously misunderstand me. If you would just not be so intentionally cryptic we'd have a much better time. I assume you mean the opposite of first party is third party, so... what? What does that have to do with anything I've said?

Oh wait. You're saying Unity (the Lua plugin, IIRC) and Enhanced Animations are made by TGC? See, if you'd simply quoted what I'd said, we never would have had this confusion.

KeithC
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Posted: 18th Feb 2015 16:02 Edited at: 18th Feb 2015 16:03


-Keith
BlackFox
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Posted: 18th Feb 2015 16:49
My thoughts exactly, Keith.

There's no problem that can't be solved without applying a little scripting.
Wolf
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Posted: 18th Feb 2015 20:36
Quote: "does that mean the opposite of 1 is any number that is not 1? "


Wouldn't that be negative one (-1) ?

"When I contradict myself, I am telling the truth"
"absurdity has become necessity"
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 18th Feb 2015 23:27
Quote: "My thoughts exactly, Keith."


+1



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MrValentine
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Posted: 19th Feb 2015 01:09
KeithC haha you nailed it!

Still recovering from being completely drunk for the past two days... time for sleep...

Quote: "Oh wait. You're saying Unity (the Lua plugin, IIRC) and Enhanced Animations are made by TGC?"


Are they?

My point was, Third party Extensions, as in you, me, him, her making 'extensions' for AppGameKit, when will that be possible...

If the question is not clear, I think it does not need elaborating anyway as we can expect slow updates for a further year, but I am happy to see fast pace action if it does come... but I know some others who are already moving away from AppGameKit and that worries me for TGC... but the Steam release makes the concern slightly less of a major concern... I think...

Anyway night night all

xplosys
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Posted: 20th Feb 2015 16:54 Edited at: 23rd Feb 2015 01:14
Comment removed by poster.

KeithC
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Posted: 20th Feb 2015 17:36
The only thing that is changing, is the name/brand, and the added direction of purpose.....that is, more than just an FPS maker.

-Keith
Wolf
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Posted: 20th Feb 2015 17:44
@xplosys: Lets wait and see what they deliver... we can always hang them later if they don't!



-Wolf

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xplosys
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Posted: 20th Feb 2015 17:49 Edited at: 23rd Feb 2015 01:14
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 21st Feb 2015 00:14
Quote: "I guess I'm a little too old to wait a couple more years"


Sounds ominous. Hopefully things aren't that bad.



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MrValentine
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Posted: 21st Feb 2015 11:18
I mentioned this already on Keiths other thread... but here it is for here

Quote: "•NVIDIA GeForce 400 series or AMD Radeon HD 6000 series, 1GB Video Card (Minimum Shader Model 2.0)"


I think they need to add Intel HD4000 to the list and HD5000+ to the recommended...

Or else they are alienating many new users that can actually use the product...

I have an Intel HD4000 in my Surface Pro 2 and it works perfectly fine...

Adrian
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Posted: 31st Mar 2015 14:07
Any word on how this is being received yet?
They are up against some pretty strong competition with UE4 being released for free and I have read that Source 2 is going to be released for free too, both of which are DX11.

I just wonder if enough people will buy a DX9 engine. They didn't make their kickstarter goal initially so it suggested to me that people wern't interested, or were using one of the alternative systems already.

I hope they can make some sort of success out of this. I'm waiting for the long-delayed DBPro update that may come as a result of the work being done on GameGuru.
Wolf
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Posted: 31st Mar 2015 14:30
Quote: "Any word on how this is being received yet?"


Yeah, you can always google it and read the reviews on steam or visit here.

Quote: "They are up against some pretty strong competition with UE4 being released for free and I have read that Source 2 is going to be released for free too"


There is also Unity, UDK, Source, Leadwerks, Skyline, Torque and do I need to continue because there are many more superior engines that do, however, not directly relate to FPSC or guru. Gameguru covers a niche of hobbyists who are either incapable of using a big-name engine, don't want to work in a team on a project, or don't have the time necessary to work with something like...say UDK.

Quote: "I just wonder if enough people will buy a DX9 engine."


I still find little wrong with DX9 and it has been announced that they'll support DX11 in the future. To further discuss this (if needed), I'd have to ask you wether you actually know what DirectX is and how it relates to an engine...not to be condescending but because I had some annoying experiences where I was discussing this with people who did not really know what DirectX is and assumed its some kinda software that just magically makes your game look better (the heap of gamers that think good graphics boil down to the engine more than the designers is something I could go on about but which isn't on topic.)

Quote: "They didn't make their kickstarter goal initially so it suggested to me that people wern't interested, or were using one of the alternative systems already. "


In my opinion that was mostly due to being way too early (just like the steam release was a little too early) and soddy marketing.

Quote: "I hope they can make some sort of success out of this. I'm waiting for the long-delayed DBPro update that may come as a result of the work being done on GameGuru. "


Well, I assume this relies largely on Lee Bamber and he probably will... What guru does and how its optimized might not be impressive at all concidering contemporary engines but its certainly big as far as dbpro goes.

I'd hate to see DBPro get neglected more than its users feel it is (can't confirm it as I only use them dilettant subproducts ) as their users are the backbone of the old forums here.



-Wolf

"If the mods didn’t see it, I didn’t do it!" - Rick Bamber
Seditious
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Posted: 31st Mar 2015 15:05
Quote: "What guru does and how its optimized might not be impressive at all concidering contemporary engines but its certainly big as far as dbpro goes."


You don't mean it's being written in DBPro, do you?
Adrian
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Posted: 31st Mar 2015 15:13
Quote: "dilettant subproducts"

LOL - Dilettante - a person whose interest in an art or in an area of knowledge is not very deep or serious.
I would like to think I have a fairly good understanding which is why I despair at the direction things have gone lately.

Quote: "You don't mean it's being written in DBPro, do you? "

I believe it's being used to write GG, which is why I wonder why they are not still supporting it. I'm fairly sure the version they are using is somewhat ahead of what you can download from the TGC website.

Fingers crossed that they pull a rabbit out of the hat.
Clonkex
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Posted: 31st Mar 2015 15:17
Quote: "You don't mean it's being written in DBPro, do you?"


Of course it is. GameGuru is FPSC Reloaded which began life as FPSCx9 (which is written in DBPro). I'm constantly amazed at how many people don't know this. Really thought it was common knowledge...

Quote: "I'm fairly sure the version they are using is somewhat ahead of what you can download from the TGC website."


It's actually a long way ahead of the version we all have access to.

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 31st Mar 2015 15:18 Edited at: 31st Mar 2015 15:19
Quote: "Of course it is."
Baah. When will they move on??

Quote: "It's actually a long way ahead of the version we all have access to."
Why wouldn't they make that accessible to us?

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Clonkex
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Posted: 31st Mar 2015 15:28
Quote: "Baah. When will they move on??"


Well FPSC Reloaded started when TGC had no money for big new projects. Reloaded was just meant to be a short project to update FPSC. Lee didn't have the time to rewrite the engine from scratch in something like C++ so he worked off the original DBPro code. It's just progressed from there.

Quote: "Why wouldn't they make that accessible to us?"


Presumably because it would require a lot of work to get it ready for a public release. As far as I'm aware Lee's version of DBPro has a lot of upgrades and fixes, but it's also got a lot of code specific to Reloaded/GameGuru.

Seditious
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Posted: 31st Mar 2015 15:30
Quote: "Of course it is."


I think not a lot of people would believe that after seeing the FPSC source code and how much of an unmanageable mess it was, and then realising that TGC want to do all that plus add other genres. I think it's a mistake to try developing such a large product in such a limited language, but we'll see what happens.
Wolf
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Posted: 31st Mar 2015 16:18 Edited at: 31st Mar 2015 16:21
Quote: "I would like to think I have a fairly good understanding which is why I despair at the direction things have gone lately."


That was directed to how the software I use is perceived by a large fraction of this community and not at you or your skills.

Quote: "I believe it's being used to write GG"


It is.

Quote: "I think it's a mistake to try developing such a large product in such a limited language, but we'll see what happens. "


I'd rather have them write it in another language aswell..but they don't and thats how it is.



-Wolf

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Van B
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Posted: 31st Mar 2015 16:35
The FPSC source code is probably only an unmanageable mess in the eyes of the people who didn't write it - to Lee it probably makes perfect sense.

I'm sure Lee stuck with using DBPro so that he could use plugins and get cracking right away in the language that is probably second nature to him by now - this wouldn't be the case with C++ or another language, GG would not be at the stage it's at now if it was developed in anything other than DBPro.

If there is anywhere on earth that should understand the importance of having a realistic project scope, it's here. TGC need to finish GameGuru, release it, and make money - that is considerably more difficult to guarantee if you use a less familiar core language.

I find it hilarious that people are moaning about the lack of updates to DBPro and moaning about the fact that they still use DBPro in the same post, or DX9, or a big source file, or anything at all that anyone can moan about. Deal with it guys, forum whinging is not going to convince TGC to spend time and money on DBPro - maybe some promising DBPro projects would convince them better... like if someone was to start a project that could benefit from additions that Lee has made, maybe that would be grounds for even discussing it.

I am the one who knocks...
Wolf
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Posted: 31st Mar 2015 16:42
That hit the nail on the head.

"If the mods didn’t see it, I didn’t do it!" - Rick Bamber
Indicium
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Posted: 31st Mar 2015 18:43
Quote: "The FPSC source code is probably only an unmanageable mess in the eyes of the people who didn't write it - to Lee it probably makes perfect sense."


That's bad design then, what if Lee should be hit by a bus?
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Posted: 1st Apr 2015 01:36
Quote: "I'm sure Lee stuck with using DBPro so that he could use plugins and get cracking right away in the language that is probably second nature to him by now - this wouldn't be the case with C++ or another language, GG would not be at the stage it's at now if it was developed in anything other than DBPro."


Of course, because both DBC and DBPro were developed in DBPro.

I realise it's too late to complain, I just find it odd and disappointing that he'd attempt such a large project in such a language. If he had used DarkGDK he'd get better speeds AND would have access to advanced language features that would make development so much easier.
Dar13
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Posted: 1st Apr 2015 06:20
Quote: "I still find little wrong with DX9 and it has been announced that they'll support DX11 in the future. To further discuss this (if needed), I'd have to ask you wether you actually know what DirectX is and how it relates to an engine...not to be condescending but because I had some annoying experiences where I was discussing this with people who did not really know what DirectX is and assumed its some kinda software that just magically makes your game look better (the heap of gamers that think good graphics boil down to the engine more than the designers is something I could go on about but which isn't on topic.) "

DirectX 9 is usable, but it's much slower than newer versions due to the fixed function rendering pipeline that has to be worked around or used. The API used doesn't necessarily increase graphics by itself but it does give the programmer some much needed performance in order to create a higher level of graphical fidelity.

However, I'm not worried about DX9. I'm much more concerned with the decision to use DBP. While somewhat mature as a language, the compiler is simply not up to the task of producing efficient executables. Calling a function to perform a floating-point mathematical operation is madness when there is an x86-64 instruction to specifically do that(FADD, FSUB, FSQRT, etc). The language is a great hobbyist/learning language but using it for a commercial product has always been iffy due to its many quirks. If Lee is indeed using it for GameGuru, then why did they kill DBP if they have a version they're willing to use as a backbone for another commercial product?

All in all, I'm surprised at some of the decisions made by TGC. They aren't necessarily bad ones, just surprising ones.

Clonkex
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2015 14:42
GUYZ.

You know how long Reloaded/GameGuru took to make already, don't you? Now imagine how long it would have taken if Lee had had to write the entire thing from scratch in a new language. It would have sent TGC broke!

It's like I said. Lee was only planning to spend 6 months (IIRC) on Reloaded to give it a much-needed upgrade. It was never meant to be a whole new product.

THAT'S why they used DBPro. Not because DBPro is necessarily a good language for the project, but because FPSCx9 was already written in DBPro and they didn't have the time or money to write FPSC all over again.

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Posted: 2nd Apr 2015 15:07
Ah, I didn't realise Reloaded was simply an update to FPSC, I thought it was written as a new product. In that case I guess it sort of makes sense, although I think the scope is a little unrealistic for something written in DBPro. However, time will tell. I'm sure Lee has some tricks up his sleeve.
Clonkex
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2015 15:14
Quote: "although I think the scope is a little unrealistic for something written in DBPro"


I agree. Probably why the performance is a tad on the low-and-unreliable side.

mr Handy
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2015 21:10 Edited at: 2nd Apr 2015 21:15
DBP is still cool, when you guys will realize it?!

Lee is doing everything smart and right! Can't wait too see the solid stable release (sort of final) and new games made with it.

Also what if Lee will make GameGuru with free Unity?

Van B
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2015 12:41
Quote: "Also what if Lee will make GameGuru with free Unity?"


Then it would die on its ass like most ill-conceived Unity projects

Plus that's 1 too many layers of abstraction, you can't use an editor heavy platform to write an editor heavy platform and expect people to rejoice. Personally I think DBPro is an awesome language for GameGuru - fast development times, and as I keep saying, PC's these days eat up DBPro games for breakfast. GameGuru might struggle to look as good as some other engines, but these other engines results aren't as direct and instant, and sure as hell they aren't designed for beginners.

I am the one who knocks...
Clonkex
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2015 16:29
Quote: "PC's these days eat up DBPro games for breakfast."


Well... except when you try to do GG with it... Dunno, maybe the latest version runs faster.

MrValentine
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2015 17:52
Am I the only person that reads GG on the forum and thinks of Green Gandalf first instead of Game Guru?

Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2015 17:55
Quote: "DBP is still cool, when you guys will realize it?!"


Not saying it's not cool, but it is heavily outdated and has many problems.

Quote: "PC's these days eat up DBPro games for breakfast."


Unless the maker of the game didn't compile the DBP game on Windows 7 SP 1, then it won't work.

The formatting keeps messing itself up thanks to the Apollo Forums poltergeist!
mr Handy
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2015 19:14
Quote: "and expect people to rejoice."

The key thing in any project.

Quote: "Not saying it's not cool, but it is heavily outdated and has many problems."

A bad dancer blames his balls.

Quote: "it is heavily outdated"

Like if you make bad app but on fresh compiler version it will be better?
Like if you make good app but on old compiler version it will be worse?

The key problem of DBP is that there is no pro game developers here, so it looks like a poor tool (which is not).

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2015 20:00
Quote: "Am I the only person that reads GG on the forum and thinks of Green Gandalf first instead of Game Guru?"


No.

It used to be bad enough when Gil Gilvanti was around. Now I'm totally confused.



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