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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Windows 10 - The only malware you'll ever need

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TheComet
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Posted: 30th Jul 2015 14:30 Edited at: 30th Jul 2015 14:31


Just relaying this collection of information I found on Windows 10.

> Microsoft owns Pando Networks, famous for the malware/botnet Pando Media Booster.
> Windows Update in Windows 10 utilizes P2P by default, most likely the same P2P technology used by Pando Media Booster.
> Essentially it turns your PC into a zombie host server, wasting your bandwidth and serving updates to other computers.
> This also means Windows Update might be utilized later to spread malware through the P2P system via 0days.
https://archive.is/Tqv7s
https://archive.is/s3BjC
https://archive.is/Yy9JB

> You cannot turn off "Telemetry" unless you own Windows 10 Enterprise Edition.
> This means your computer will continuously leak unspecified information to Microsoft and there's no way of turning this off.
https://archive.is/3yo92 (direct)

> You cannot turn off "Real-time Protection", aka Windows Defender. Even if you do it will turn itself on again after a while.
> This means you cannot prevent your PC from sending random files and information to Microsoft for "analysis".
https://archive.is/Dln44 (direct)

> Cortana has zero local storage functionality and does not function unless you have a Microsoft Account connected.
> It will even inform you about this if you try using it on a local account and then shut itself down.
https://archive.is/2Vw55

> Windows 10 start menu will have "Content suggestions" which are on by default, which means you'll be seeing ads.
https://archive.is/0ltgw (direct)

> Windows 10 "Wifi Sense" will be begging for your Facebook account details so it can get to know you better.
> It will also be sharing your Wifi password with all of your Facebook/Skype/Outlook friends, their friends, as well as with Microsoft.
https://archive.is/9HETF (direct)
https://archive.is/mO3aH

wet fuel can't smelt steel memes

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BatVink
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Posted: 30th Jul 2015 17:11
Mmm...

I thought Pando was an ISP based P2P network? So it delivers high-volume traffic to ISPs, not to end users.

Quote: "You cannot turn off "Telemetry" unless you own Windows 10 Enterprise Edition."


I am not saying what is right and what is wrong, but it depends which sites you read...

Quote: "...We live in a world where sensationalism and conspiracy thread through our lives, and we welcome it. And, if it sounds even the least bit plausible, or fits any morsel of personal belief, it's true...

There are those sites (I'm not even going to name them) that have taken the conspiracy angle for a useful and valuable feedback system and are attempting use it to scare the public and make them question Microsoft's motives...

Windows 10 will not cause uncontrollable and explosive bowel movements, and it will definitely not tell Microsoft about that questionable web site you "accidentally" visited. ...

When a finished Windows 10 finally releases publicly next year, the real-time telemetry will be removed. It's not a permanent part of the operating system....

"


Cortana...working like Siri and Android, they only operate by sending your voice data back to the mothership too. Android openly state that they use this to refine the product, which is a good thing. If you keep repeating the same thing and getting the wrong results it learns from it.

Quote: "Windows 10 start menu will have "Content suggestions" which are on by default, which means you'll be seeing ads."


That's not good and it bugs me that you have to make the effort to switch it off. My parents wouldn't know where to start and they are probably representative of at least 50% of users. From M$ point of view, nobody would opt to turn it on if the default was switched around.

Wifi Sense - A shocking display of bad judgement! And you aren't even modestly in control of who is being let into your network through the back door.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
TutCity is being rebuilt
wattywatts
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Posted: 30th Jul 2015 17:25
I already decided not to upgrade anyway, looks like I made the right choice.
KeithC
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Posted: 30th Jul 2015 20:19
I'm staying away from it.

-Keith
Quik
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Posted: 30th Jul 2015 20:28
Thanks for letting us know. I was rather excited but.. Idno now



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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 30th Jul 2015 21:10
Sounds like I'd better avoid it when the time comes. Looks like another way of hogging resources if nothing else.



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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 30th Jul 2015 21:28
Perhaps they are making the upgrade free because they know that it's something nobody would pay to do, given the new features?
Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 30th Jul 2015 22:59
I KNEW it would be too good to be true.

Looks like I'll be steering clear until they can correct those policies. But I won't hold my breath.

I'm not sure, but I think Apple did some similar stuff a few years ago with one of the OS updates, where it enabled automatic feedback of "system information" for diagnostic purposes. They never did anything like WiFi Sense though - that's just plain crazy!

PLus since I'm on limited bandwidth (250GB/month), this just seems insane. Maybe I will finally ditch Windows altogether and make Linux my main OS. I could keep Windows 7 on one hard drive, along with all my games, and then install Linux on the other, boot whichever one I need for that time being. Seems plausible!


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Seditious
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Posted: 30th Jul 2015 23:00
Quote: "We live in a world where sensationalism and conspiracy thread through our lives, and we welcome it. And, if it sounds even the least bit plausible, or fits any morsel of personal belief, it's true"


This is so true in just about any context. Where does that quote originate?

Van B
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Posted: 30th Jul 2015 23:23
I was in no hurry to upgrade from Win2000Pro, or XP, and am in no hurry to upgrade from Win7Ult - I don't like Win8, and 8.1 IMHO is just a load of lipstick on a pig.

When I do absolutely have to upgrade to 10, it'll be at least a year after launch, when all the horribleness has been forcably removed and the issues ironed out, and then it'll be the top tier version or nothing. Screw M$ and their money grubbing, arrogant, obtuse ways.

Hockeykid
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Posted: 31st Jul 2015 04:16 Edited at: 31st Jul 2015 04:20
Quote: " Essentially it turns your PC into a zombie host server, wasting your bandwidth and serving updates to other computers.
> This also means Windows Update might be utilized later to spread malware through the P2P system via 0days."


Thanks for pointing this out. I took a look around in the settings and was able to easily turn the option off. I ended up allowing a P2P download for "PCs on my local network" rather than the default "PCs on my local network, and PCs on the internet." I could have completely turned it off, but I think its sort of handy allowing computers on my private network to "share" Windows updates with my computer for faster downloading.

The setting can be found in "Settings > Update & Security > Windows Update > Scroll down and click on "Advanced options" > Click on "Choose how update are delivered."

Quote: "> You cannot turn off "Telemetry" unless you own Windows 10 Enterprise Edition.
> This means your computer will continuously leak unspecified information to Microsoft and there's no way of turning this off."

According to this article Telemetry can be turned off through the registry:

http://winaero.com/blog/how-to-disable-telemetry-and-data-collection-in-windows-10/


Quote: "You cannot turn off "Real-time Protection", aka Windows Defender. Even if you do it will turn itself on again after a while."


It would seem that Windows Defender is actually disabled automatically if you have another anti-virus software installed. I have AVG on my computer, and Windows Defender is disabled. I get a pop-up message when trying to access the Windows Defender settings that says "This app has been turned off and isn't monitoring your computer."

There are still some ways to permanently disable Windows Defender even if you don't have any anti-virus software: http://winaero.com/blog/disable-or-enable-windows-defender-in-windows-10/

Quote: "> Cortana has zero local storage functionality and does not function unless you have a Microsoft Account connected.
> It will even inform you about this if you try using it on a local account and then shut itself down."


This I do find quite annoying. I would like to use Cortana and have it linked to my phone for things like reminders, emails, etc. However, I don't want my entire computer connected to my Microsoft account simply because there are certain features I don't care to have connected. For example, I don't want every picture on my computer uploaded to One Drive. For an average PC user this would be a nice feature, but as a programmer I have tons of random images, diagrams, sprites, etc that don't need to be uploaded.

I had to disable Cortana for this reason (at least for now). I was a bit confused when it tried connecting my computer to my Microsoft account mostly because none of the other apps do this. The Windows 8 apps were notorious for doing this, so I always avoided using them. However, most of the Windows 10 apps allow you to log into your Microsoft account without connecting the entire computer. So I find it odd that Cortana is the only app that forces the entire computer-account connection. I am hoping they will change this so I can make use of Cortana.

Quote: "Windows 10 start menu will have "Content suggestions" which are on by default, which means you'll be seeing ads."

Thanks for pointing that out, I have disabled it. I am curious as to how "ad-like" these "Content suggestions" are or if they are more of a "Recommended for you" apps list.

Quote: "> Windows 10 "Wifi Sense" will be begging for your Facebook account details so it can get to know you better.
> It will also be sharing your Wifi password with all of your Facebook/Skype/Outlook friends, their friends, as well as with Microsoft."


I disabled this feature during installation. I think this feature would be better if it was simply only your contacts could have access to your wifi network. By allowing "friends of friends" to connect to your network it begins to spiral out of control, eventually tons of wifi connections would essentially become open networks. Furthermore, maybe it could be really simplified so that instead of automatically providing the wifi passwords to your contacts you just manually select a contact to share your wifi password with. That way you could share your wifi with someone that's at your house without having to tell them the password and without your password automatically being given to all your contacts.



Personally, I would recommend Windows 10. Though I would say that right after installing it you should go through the settings thoroughly to turn somethings off and make some tweaks. That being said, I do believe that Windows 10's settings give a good amount of options and flexibility.

It's worth mentioning that you can update to Windows 10 "risk free" as there is a downgrade button (for me it says "Go back to Windows 7"), however you only have month from the time you upgraded to downgrade. I would say install it and give it a try, if you don't like it (I think you will) then use the downgrade button. Downgrade button is located in "Settings > Update & Security > Recovery."


Sean

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Posted: 31st Jul 2015 12:16
I'll wait it out for a few months to see if the outcome of its implementations. I only have one PC at the moment which I cannot afford to screw up; otherwise I would test it on another one.

Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 31st Jul 2015 12:47
@Hockeykid:
Thank you for that detailed post! Nice to see you can at least disable some things if you know what you're doing! Too bad all the pre-built computers will have WiFi Sense enabled. Out of all the things, that's what scares me the most about Windows 10!


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BatVink
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Posted: 31st Jul 2015 13:05
Quote: "The setting can be found in "Settings > Update & Security > Windows Update > Scroll down and click on "Advanced options" > Click on "Choose how update are delivered.""


Thank you! That answers my question above...it's not just ISP-based P2P delivery.

Quote: "Personally, I would recommend Windows 10"

Agreed. I have the luxury of multiple machines, so I have upgraded one from Windows 7.

First impression - fast and clean. I am so happy not to have the screen obliterated by that Win8 tile abomination.

I have dealt with some of the security concerns although I'm not overly concerned. I really don't think that out of millions of users that somebody is sat reading through my activities, I'm really not that interesting. I see it as quite an arrogant standpoint, that people think they are far more interesting than millions of other people and their data is being closely scrutinised by non-machines. Although I do object to them making money from my data through marketing, if that was one of the uses.

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TutCity is being rebuilt
Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 31st Jul 2015 22:48
Hmm, upon further research, I suppose it doesn't sound as bad as originally thought.

Think of it much like Android apps - we KNOW they submit data in the background, we KNOW carriers (at least in the US) look at our information, and we use the damn phones anyway. Microsoft adds a few features that require the sending and receiving of data (which you can disable, it's just a pain ), and suddenly it sounds really bad but it's actually less than what happens with our smart phones.

Although I do want an excuse to install Linux Mint onto my system, but now I have seen some crazy amazing things people can do with Windows 10. It truly is a great piece of work, I just wish they would ditch the automatic updates and WiFi sense


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Dar13
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Posted: 1st Aug 2015 07:00
Quote: " I have dealt with some of the security concerns although I'm not overly concerned. I really don't think that out of millions of users that somebody is sat reading through my activities, I'm really not that interesting. I see it as quite an arrogant standpoint, that people think they are far more interesting than millions of other people and their data is being closely scrutinised by non-machines. Although I do object to them making money from my data through marketing, if that was one of the uses."

It doesn't have to be scrutinized by non-machines, machines do a fine job of it now-a-days through machine learning. And the reason people are upset about it is the precedent it gives to the government as well as the pure amount of data that's now in one place. With the hacks of the US government's security clearance database, who knows if they can even keep that data secure.

Couple of articles that may/may not articulate it better than me(regarding NSA's PRISM program and overall government surveillance): The Guardian and Gizmodo and Huffington Post.

Until someone figures out how to entirely block Windows 10 from transmitting this data or Microsoft allows us to disable it, I'll stick with 7. I may virtualize it, but at least then I have absolute control over what goes through.

Quote: "Although I do want an excuse to install Linux Mint onto my system, but now I have seen some crazy amazing things people can do with Windows 10. It truly is a great piece of work, I just wish they would ditch the automatic updates and WiFi sense"

If you really do have a spare hard drive, then there's your excuse. Otherwise I'd recommend(depending on your hardware) grabbing VirtualBox or some other VM software and giving it a shot there before installing it for real.

Jeku
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Posted: 1st Aug 2015 09:25
I'm just upset that Cortana isn't available in Canada yet. I mean come on

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BatVink
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Posted: 1st Aug 2015 11:18
Quote: "I'm just upset that Cortana isn't available in Canada yet"


It's not that great. It is far less accurate than Google's voice recognition, and takes a lot longer to work out the wrong result

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bitJericho
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Posted: 1st Aug 2015 13:10
Wow... so this is interesting. I think my copy of windows 10 beta upgraded itself to the release version and everything is activated. I no longer have any watermark! Thanks MS!

Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2015 02:29
So, the more I look into it, I think we all might just be a tad too paranoid.

The improvements in Windows 10 are HUGE, and honestly, I think they'll probably remove WiFi Sense and disable automatic updates after a few weeks. Telemetry mode may actually be a good thing to keep enabled so that they can improve Windows 10 more and more.

For those who don't know, you can upgrade faster via this article (and yes Microsoft are ok with it, but you have to have a reserved copy).

I'm downloading it now, and will upgrade here soon. I'll let you all know what I think!


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The Zoq2
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2015 14:33
Quote: " I think they'll probably remove WiFi Sense and disable automatic updates after a few weeks."


Perhaps WiFi sense but I doubt they will ever disable automatic updates. They had to support windows XP for a lot longer than they wanted because people didn't upgrade and the same thing will probably happen with 7. They have already said that windows 10 will be the last windows version and I assume this means that they will make some major changes every few years. In order to avoid people having outdated versions in 10 years, they don't want to disable auto updates.

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
The Slayer
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2015 16:11
Just updated to Win 10 now. Installation whent flawless.
Haven't digged deep into the new OS yet, but so far...i like it. Time will tell if i will keep on liking it as at this moment, but that's true for any new OS you try out.

For me as a game developer, using plenty of Windows based programs, i would find it hard to switch to another OS, because of the lack of supported programs the other OS have.

I'm sure there are pros and cons to the new system, and i doubt we should be so worried about what has been discussed in previous posts in this thread. If they wanna keep an eye on us, they would undoubtedly do that, without our permission. The internet isn't a safe place, no matter what protection you have. There's always a way to get information on someone (especially if that person is on the internet).

Just my two cents.

Quote: "Close those quotes before they start to spread!...too late! Aaaaaagh!!!
Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2015 18:35
It does run pretty well. I actually love the new Start Menu, with how customizable it is!

They still need to work on a few things but overall? I like it so far.

However, I finally found out why I couldn't install Linux Mint and have corrected the problem, so I will still install that to my secondary hard drive tonight.

I'll use Windows for gaming, Linux for main use + programming.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2015 20:48
I was looking at an article about Windows 10 updates, and came across this screenshot:



Quote: "Updates won't download over a metered connection"
That's good. Now, perhaps there is some way of tricking Windows into thinking it's on a metered connection when it's not; that would prevent it from ever updating, theoretically.
Dar13
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2015 21:17
Quote: " I was looking at an article about Windows 10 updates, and came across this screenshot:"

Which version is that? Home edition handles this differently from Professional.

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2015 21:37
Not sure which version. I would most definitely hope Home Edition, since automatically downloading updates people don't need over paid, metered connections is unacceptable in every way.
The Zoq2
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2015 22:27 Edited at: 2nd Aug 2015 22:31
That's exactly what I think aswell DJD but last I heard, the updates can't be delayed or disabled in the home version. On pro, you were going to be able to delay it for a certain amount of months.

That is the main thing that turns me off from windows 10. At any point, microsoft can decide that they want to rework their UI similarly to what they did with windows 8, and there would be no way to skip that version like what a lot of people did with windows 7. They could also suddenly change the EULA similarly to what they just did, and you wouldn't be able to opt out of those changes.

They probably won't do the later but I wouldn't be suprised if they did something similar to win 8 some time in the future.

The point about it downloading updates on a throtteled connection is also a major point. I have had windows updates use quite a bit of CPU while they are being checked for and downloaded, this would be the same thing only it might cost someone oney or deny network acess for a month

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
Hockeykid
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2015 06:32
Quote: " I wouldn't be suprised if they did something similar to win 8 some time in the future."


They already have a Windows 8 like interface in Windows 10. However, it's only activated if you have a touchscreen (you can turn this option off). And I think I heard that if you plug a mouse and keyboard into the touchscreen device it detects them and turns off the "tablet mode" interface.


Sean

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Posted: 3rd Aug 2015 06:49
I have a fun story about the troubles of automatic updates. A year or so ago, I was helping run the timing system at a school track meet. We have two laptops for that; one records video footage of racers crossing the finish line, and the other laptop is used to review said footage frame by frame in order to determine each racer's time. The video recording laptop, thus, was crucial to the track meet running. A new race was getting ready to start, and the other guy I was running the system with and I were getting the second laptop ready to do something or another. We weren't looking, and failed to notice the little yellow popup reminding us of an automatic update on the recording laptop. So sure enough, right before the race starts, the laptop begins to shut down and install dozens of updates (the laptop hadn't been powered on since the previous year's meet). Ultimately, we had to pause the entire track meet (several schools, a few hundred people) for about 30 minutes while we waited for that computer to finish updating.

And to think, with Windows 10, that will happen even if you do notice that it's about to update. Pffft!
The Zoq2
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2015 13:03
Quote: "They already have a Windows 8 like interface in Windows 10. However, it's only activated if you have a touchscreen (you can turn this option off). And I think I heard that if you plug a mouse and keyboard into the touchscreen device it detects them and turns off the "tablet mode" interface.
"


What I meant was that they would do something similar to what they did with windows 8. A major update that changes the interface to something a lot of people don't like.

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
TheComet
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2015 14:27
Quote: "Think of it much like Android apps - we KNOW they submit data in the background, we KNOW carriers (at least in the US) look at our information, and we use the damn phones anyway."


I have to disagree with this logic.

Just because something else is terrible doesn't mean Windows 10 is justified to do the same thing.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2015 14:49
I'm not very concerned about the privacy issue. I'm far more concerned about loss of performance at critical moments like this:

Quote: "So sure enough, right before the race starts, the laptop begins to shut down and install dozens of updates (the laptop hadn't been powered on since the previous year's meet). Ultimately, we had to pause the entire track meet (several schools, a few hundred people) for about 30 minutes while we waited for that computer to finish updating."


I've experienced the same thing in a meeting. Very annoying - especially if there's no way to turn it off. And what about Windows computers being used to control equipment? Sounds like a recipe for disaster and lots of law suits to me. Why the hell does MS think it has the right to control what user computers are doing?



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BatVink
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2015 16:13
There is a setting to stop the computer shutting down. You can't stop the updates, but you can control the point at which you restart.

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2015 18:15
Quote: "Just because something else is terrible doesn't mean Windows 10 is justified to do the same thing."


Ah, that wasn't my original point.

My point was that we knowingly LET THIS HAPPEN, which is just insane. And what's even scarier is that the average Joe is completely unaware of this fact. Carriers collect all sorts of information and it's very frightening.

Curiously enough, as far as anyone can tell, nobody collects data from iPhones because apparently Steve Jobs threw a hissy fit when the NSA tried to demand him to let it happen. I don't know how true that is though.

I agree 100%, it is no excuse for Microsoft to make a terrible, privacy-breaching product.

However, I do think they'll probably respond to all of the backlash being posted around by reversing all of their controversial policies. It really reminds me of when Xbox One was first announced and then a month later they reversed all of the terrible things about it, particularly their DRM policies.

One can hope anyway.

I actually just got Linux Mint 17.2 installed on my secondary hard drive (finally!), now with AppGameKit having Linux support, and Unity releasing their beta for their Linux version later on this year? I very highly doubt I'll use Windows for more than anything but pure and simple gaming, and maybe video editing too. Otehrwise it will be disconnected 90% of the time and I'll use Linux for everything else.


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Ortu
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2015 19:13
Quote: "However, I do think they'll probably respond to all of the backlash being posted around by reversing all of their controversial policies. It really reminds me of when Xbox One was first announced and then a month later they reversed all of the terrible things about it, particularly their DRM policies."


my thought exactly.

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2015 22:51
Quote: "You can't stop the updates, but you can control the point at which you restart."
Okay, so you can technically stop the updates by refusing to restart then. Not a problem for someone like me, who restarts maybe once a month?
BatVink
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2015 23:43
Quote: "However, I do think they'll probably respond to all of the backlash being posted around by reversing all of their controversial policies"


I doubt they will. Remember you read technical blogs and articles because of your hobbies and life interests. 95% of PC users just want something that works. Most people will upgrade because it's free, it's better than Win8 by a mile, and also gives win7 a run for it's money.

If it is free and people keep installing, they have no reason to retract anything, it will just become the norm over time. New PCs come with it and I doubt they have a downgrade to Win8.

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Dar13
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Posted: 4th Aug 2015 01:00
Quote: " I've experienced the same thing in a meeting. Very annoying - especially if there's no way to turn it off. And what about Windows computers being used to control equipment? Sounds like a recipe for disaster and lots of law suits to me. Why the hell does MS think it has the right to control what user computers are doing?"

If you're using Windows to control equipment, it should be using an enterprise version of Windows that does give you that granular control. Otherwise, Microsoft will take whatever liberties the market allows it. [shrug] It won't stop until the general populace speaks out, similar to when the Xbox One was announced.

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Posted: 4th Aug 2015 05:57 Edited at: 4th Aug 2015 05:59
I just don't understand how people don't see the same thing over and over on every release.

Boo windows 95 sucks. Dos is way faster and has more apps.

Boo windows 98 is sucky, it is new and terrifying and bsods all the time.

Boo windows ME is windows 98 with lipstick all over it.

Boo windows xp sucks, it requires like 256mb of ram at a MINIMUM?? Preposterous. And that interface? Is this windows or duplos?

Boo windows vista sucks, it's like windows me (the actual complaints were like XP all over again, but people kept referencing ME for some reason, I guess it was the cool thing to do).

Boo windows 7 is... well at least it's not vista and XP is dead even tho I wanna have XPs babies, so I guess we have to use 7 now.

Boo windows 8 has an ugly start screen.

Boo windows 10 has internet cloud features that are on by default.

Can't wait for the complains after the next major windows revision. I'll bet cash money to whoever accepts the bet that it'll be a windows me comparison all over again.

For a bunch of techies interested in computer progress you guys really hate progress.

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 4th Aug 2015 06:09
Quote: "you guys really hate progress."
We really hate progress in the wrong direction.
Dar13
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Location: Microsoft VisualStudio 2010 Professional
Posted: 4th Aug 2015 06:36
Quote: "For a bunch of techies interested in computer progress you guys really hate progress."

I'm more than willing to give Microsoft props on the progression of their UI design and underlying speed ups. I'm more than likely going to upgrade to Windows 10 in some capacity by the end of the year. However, I'm not willing to give them a free pass in some things (like ads in solitaire, Wifi Sense, etc).

bitJericho
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Posted: 4th Aug 2015 07:12 Edited at: 4th Aug 2015 07:17
Quote: "We really hate progress in the wrong direction. "


The following are the thoughts from a guy who's been using it since it was placed into beta many months ago. This isn't my opinion after 2 days of usage:

In what direction would you like computers to go? Customers want cloud solutions, MS is giving them cloud solutions. Do you use cloud solutions? I would love your opinions about whatever you use vs onedrive.

In my opinion, Windows 7/8/10 are at least 10 years ahead of Linux in terms of desktop usability (as in, it's going to take linux at least 10 more years to get to this point, let alone where windows will be in 10 more years). Years ago I wrote on this very forum that Windows would be dead in 10 years. Turns out that linux went NOWHERE in all that time while Microsoft busted their butts. In fact, Linux probably went backwards (look at how retarded systemd is). Oh, and if you do ever see ads in the start menu/search (I sure haven't, at least not yet), you can blame ubuntu for that kind of BS (http://www.howtogeek.com/126995/how-to-disable-the-amazon-search-ads-in-ubuntus-unity-dash/)

Windows has no competition, maybe with Apple, but that's it and that's not saying much. Android is even worse than Windows in terms of security and cloud usage, imagine the outcry if it were on all our desktops (even though our phones are often more sensitive).

I don't agree with all the Window's cloud stuff and so I don't really use much of it (though I do allow Windows to be linked to my MS account and I use some of those features). All this has very little to do with how good Windows is or isn't as a desktop OS. Windows 10 is the best desktop OS to date, even when looking at Android, Linux or Mac OSX.

I'm sorry MS came up with Wifi Sense. I think it's retarded too. I'd love to know what complaints you have about it compared to windows 7, when it comes to usability.

Windows 10 is more usable in every way. Virtual desktops. Better start menu. Better window snap behavior. Better upgrade policy. Better task manager. Better browser. Better "Apps" behavior. Better start bar. Cortana. (it works incredibly well, don't believe the naysayers until you try it out.) New notifications system that works really well. Better multi-monitor support. More personalizations, like the lockscreen. If anything has changed at all in Windows 10, it's been invariably a better change. Except solitaire. That trucking ducks I agree.

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 4th Aug 2015 07:27 Edited at: 4th Aug 2015 07:29
Here, let me say this: I have never used Windows 10 before, so my opinion about it is purely speculative. Additionally, WiFi nonSense and Automatic Downgrades are my only real gripes with the operating system. I have seen videos of it, and the new UI looks pretty epic.

Quote: "I would love your opinions about whatever you use vs onedrive"
I don't use any cloud services.

I agree (albeit without ever having used Linux) that Linux is probably way behind Windows in terms of usability -- I have never been a proponent of Linux over Windows. If I had to choose between Linux, OSX, and Windows 10, my decision would be made for me -- Windows 10.

Ultimately, Windows 10 seems fine. I just disagree with a couple turns MS took. I have literally no idea whether I will upgrade or not (or if I even can; I don't have the little upgrade icon).
The Zoq2
9
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Location: Linköping, Sweden
Posted: 4th Aug 2015 12:10
Quote: "In my opinion, Windows 7/8/10 are at least 10 years ahead of Linux in terms of desktop usability"


What makes you say that. Sure, linux might be a few steps behind in some areas but it also has some areas where it's ahead.

Quote: "Linux probably went backwards (look at how retarded systemd is)"


Im not very familiar with the systemd or not debate but as far as im conserned, systemd works great for me. Perhaps there is something I don't know about but it cirtainly won't matter for the every day user.

Quote: "Oh, and if you do ever see ads in the start menu/search (I sure haven't, at least not yet), you can blame ubuntu for that kind of BS"


Yep, that's an issue and I defentivley don't agree with them doing that. However, when they did, all you had to do was change desktop manager to something other than unity. All it would take is 1 command, and log in-log out. If MS does the same thing, you are stuck with those ads.

Quote: " don't agree with all the Window's cloud stuff and so I don't really use much of it (though I do allow Windows to be linked to my MS account and I use some of those features). All this has very little to do with how good Windows is or isn't as a desktop OS. Windows 10 is the best desktop OS to date, even when looking at Android, Linux or Mac OSX."


The problem is that you can't turn some of it off. Sure, you can turn off cortana and you can probably disable any cloud sync stuff. But there is still a bunch of things which the EULA says MS can do that you can't disable. (That telemetry feature for example)

I won't argue against windows 10 being a great OS for the user, cortana seems really good, people have said lots of good things about the start menu, workspaces are incredibly useful (atleast on linux) but that doesn't change the fact that it does a bunch of shady things and that you can't change anything about it. There is no way to have a tiling window manager on windows which with the way I use my computer is a lot more useful.

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
bitJericho
16
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Posted: 4th Aug 2015 13:11 Edited at: 4th Aug 2015 13:12
Oh yeah, uninstall unity and go for, say, gnome. Good luck ever getting your install to work as good as it did before you removed unity. http://askubuntu.com/questions/450294/how-to-switch-from-unity-to-gnome

But hey, you can run some terminal commands and have it probably work just fine. I guess you might want to run compiz as well?

I mean linux is really preposterous to give to users in 2015. My uncle uses fedora though. He likes linux from when I showed him it in the version 6 days. I tried to tell him that corntana was the bomb and he can run cool stuff like google earth without having me install it, but really he just uses linux because he doesn't like windows and mac being closed off and corporate. It's really the only option for anybody who doesn't like closed source software, and that's about the only niche it can fill right now, besides server work.

Van B
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Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 4th Aug 2015 13:15
Hehe, updating Windows is the opposite of progress.

Seriously, how long does it take you guys to get everything just how you want it on a fresh install? - that's even assuming you can get your programs onto the new version... that you can find all your product keys... that you can find the software to download in some cases. And even once you have everything in place, there's always something you wish you'd done differently, like getting a better HDD first.

Anyway, that's not how I see the updates BitJ...

Win95: Looks like Gates got a mac.
Win98: So much better than 95 - nice OS.
Win2000Pro: Lovely OS, fast, straightforward and stable as hell.
WinME: The devil - so many bugs that it was unusable IMO.
WinXP: Basically 2000pro but prettier.
WinVista: Tragic.
Win7: Lovely after the initial hickups.
Win8: Windows, but designed for morons.
Win8.1: Windows for people who are sick of dealing with other peoples problems with 8.
Win10: Shows promise, but lets get all the stupid issues dealt with before we rely on it too much.

We keep harking back to ME, because MS insist on releasing OS's like Vista and 8 - and it reminds us that there is a constant loop of bad ideas floating to the top at MS, and now and then they make it onto an OS or Office distro, just for us to beat back down again. They should rename Windows Update to M$ Backpedal.

bitJericho
16
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Posted: 4th Aug 2015 13:20
Quote: " WinXP: Basically 2000pro but prettier."


XP was hated by everybody I talked to, and for good reasons:

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/04/memory-lane-before-everyone-loved-windows-xp-they-hated-it/

now Windows 2000; that was an OS! I wish windows 2000 had become the defacto OS rather than XP. Ran fast and without all the retarded services. But yeah, everybody complains about every release just about. Everybody always says "well just gotta work the bugs out and then I'll switch". Meanwhile I always switch by day 1 (or get the RTMs like in the vista days lol), and live in the future while everyone else is 2 releases behind.

Van B
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Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 4th Aug 2015 13:36
Yeah, should have said XP second edition

The Zoq2
9
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Joined: 4th Nov 2009
Location: Linköping, Sweden
Posted: 4th Aug 2015 13:51
Quote: "Oh yeah, uninstall unity and go for, say, gnome. Good luck ever getting your install to work as good as it did before you removed unity. http://askubuntu.com/questions/450294/how-to-switch-from-unity-to-gnome
"


I currently have 4 different desktop managers installed on my system, all of them work really well. Though one time I did manage to break gnome by installing KDE on my mint setup.

But as far as im aware, using gnome instead of unity will work just aswell on ubuntu.

Quote: "But hey, you can run some terminal commands and have it probably work just fine."


You could do the same things in a GUI most of the time (atleast on ubuntu) but for a tutorial on stack overflow, showing you how to do things in the terminal is a lot more usefull. It's desktop manager and system langugage independent, one line is all it takes to explain exactly what to do and if something goes wrong, there is a text output which can easily be copy pasted back to stack overflow.

I would argue that having everything acessible from a terminal is a lot better for tech support related stuff because it allows you to fix issues remotley over SSH much more easily.

Also, just for giggles:

http://www.crn.com/ckfinder/userfiles/images/crn/slideshows/2015/windows-10-upgrade-tips/5_Win10_Something_Happened.jpg

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
Seppuku Arts
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Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 4th Aug 2015 14:00
Generally on release of a new OS, it seems typical that MS gets a lot of stick, often considered to be an 'evil' company, but from reading through, it sounds like what they're doing is already standard practice from other companies and consumers seem happy to accept it. Your SmartPhones and SmartTV's already collect data in the same way.

If you are worried that the data is going to be used maliciously, one could simply update the OS to collect data without the users knowing, because it's not as if people measure what data is being sent and received by their operating system. However, I am in favour of making this sort of thing optional.

But, as we saw with Windows 8 and even the XBox One, when it came to user complaints Microsoft listened and made adjustments to please users. If this is really so much of a big deal, it is likely that MS will adjust. Because in my experience, they listen to feedback, but of course, needs to be significant enough. It is possible the average user won't care, but at the same time, the OS is used heavily by IT Professionals and if IT departments are sticking with Windows XP or Windows 7 because they don't see it as a suitable upgrade to their office staff (particularly if there are security holes, that's a big thing - consumers might not care, but businesses do) then MS is likely to try and accommodate.

Jericho is right about Linux IMO, I love Linux as an OS and there are advantages to using it, but it is still behind other OS's, at least from a consumer point of view. In fairness Valve are doing what they can to try and promote it via SteamOS, so it will be interesting to see if it has a future beyond nerds and IT professionals.

Quote: "XP was hated by everybody I talked to, and for good reasons:"


I was one of them. Back in the day, I used to moan like hell about the stability of Windows and for me XP was one of the worst, at least until it got fixed. In fact, I'm pretty sure I complained like hell on these forums. And in fairness to MS, they've stopped releasing unstable OS's since Windows 7 (even though people moaned about 8, it was still a very stable OS). It has been a long time since I've had to complain about Windows being unstable, thus turning one of the old Mac vs PC arguments into a myth, "Macs are more stable" is no longer much of an argument, but it used to be. My experience with Windows XP back in the day almost turned me into a Mac user.

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