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Geek Culture / Congressional hearings on video games

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 08:50
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I didn't know about this until a few minutes ago while watching the second run of the Daily Show... with the Text Adventure contest, work, game development, and everything else I'm juggling, I don't have much time to watch the "real" news. But from what I've gathered from the Daily Show, Congress is gearing up to put tighter restrictions on the game industry on the development, distribution, and retail ends (you know... the most important parts, the parts that make our industry the largest in entertainment? Yeah, those). Now this, I don't mind so much... in my opinion, it's not our responsibility to make more child-friendly games as much as it is for parents to actually monitor what their own children do. But the things they were saying? They were flat-out rediculous. They aired direct quotes on the Daily Show and I wish I had a recording of them so I could actually play them here, but the jist of what was said?

One guy, some politician, had the audacity to talk about his young children and how they play violent video games, and he feels like there's nothing he can do. Nothing you can do? Here's a few suggestions...
(A) Don't buy games like "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" for your SIX YEAR OLD CHILD. Face the facts that some games are made for kids, some are made for adults, and if you're too stupid to realize that then who let you breed in the first place?
(B) If your kid gets it from a different source, take it back to the store or give it to someone who is more appropriately-aged to play the game. Just because they have it doesn't mean they should get to play with it.
(C) Unplug the TV. Wow, wasn't that hard?

Another guy, some Republican congressman (I really want to find out what his name is so I can write him and tell him what a doofus he is) said something literally to the effect of "rich kids in suburbia probably wouldn't play GTA and go steal cars, but some poor kid living in poverty might not be SMART enough to tell the difference between what's entertainment and what's reality." He then went on a ramble about that poor kid's father whose in prison and his older brother selling drugs on the street corner. Yeah, that's the solution: Instead of doing whatever you can to eradicate poverty and offer equal opportunities to every American, let's ban video games to keep those evil, evil poor people from stealing my Mercedes. He's in a position of power to help the poor overcome the social barriers that prevent said poor people from chasing after the supposed "American Dream," and instead, he just wants to make them less entertained? REAL bright. Nobel Peace Prize bright. THAT bright. I keep forgetting that Columbine is in Brooklyn

Instead of spending billions of dollars re-inventing and re-implementing a new game ratings system, why don't they spend half of that money TEACHING IDIOT PARENTS the CURRENT ratings system? Is that so much to ask? And why do parents complain about what their kids are playing instead of, oh, I dunno, GETTING OFF THE COUCH and keeping them from playing them in the FIRST PLACE?!?

Okay, I'm done venting and I'm calming down [breath in, breath out]. But this effects our industry, the game industry. What if they decide to ban the sale of violent games? Or implement some wacky system that's next to impossible for game developers to work under? Does anyone else think that these sub-humans are going after the game industry because they're too arrogant, self-centered, or flat-out ignorant to look inwards and realize that bad parenting is the REAL issue? And does anyone agree that after countless studies have been conducted that have proven that video games only incite violence in seriously "mentally-deminished" people, and that violent movies and even comic books can incite those same instances of rage and violent behavior, that maybe these silly parents and politicians should try to read a few of them before they assume that games are evil? Sorry, but I'm sick of our industry getting a bad rep!


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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Oddmind
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 08:55 Edited at: 22nd Jun 2006 08:56
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I didnt read your whole post.

I agree... w/e just dont shoot me.


EDIT: WTF the daily show? that show does nothing but pick on stupid politicians that want publicity. Its funny but for god sakes dont use that as a source >_<. the game industry is second to the movie industry, theres no way its going anywhere anytime soon.

formerly KrazyJimmy

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dark coder
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 09:21
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I agree with matt, blaming games for violent behaviour is just stupid, in my opinon the main problem comes with where people actually live, if for instance a family with 2 10yr old kids moved to some council estate full of drug addics and vandals you can almost guarantee the kids will turn out the same since those would be the only friends in the area they can make, and i think that is the real source of everyones problems in the uk atleast, most of my friends werent the type that would go around smashing into peoples cars and voila none lives in the types of areas where people do this, and i knew some people who did do this kind of stuff and you bet that they all lived in areas where this was common.

also i dont understand whats wrong with the current rating system, last i recall it has a bid badge saying the age rating and violence or whatever is included in the game under it.

Hallowed are the ori.
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 09:49
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Quote: "I agree... w/e just dont shoot me."

LOL if Jeku comes in, duck & cover!

Quote: "WTF the daily show? that show does nothing but pick on stupid politicians that want publicity. Its funny but for god sakes dont use that as a source "

I only used that as a source because I didn't have another one to go by. It isn't really that bad... they report on real news, and they play real clips (as long as they're speaking english, otherwise they subtitle or voice-over it with silliness), it's just that they blend it with humor But the story is real and the quotes they used were direct via video of the people talking (I just wish I could have gotten exactly what they'd said)

Quote: "the game industry is second to the movie industry, theres no way its going anywhere anytime soon."

As far as I know, the game industry has been out-earning the film industry for at least a few years now. Maybe I'm wrong, I dunno, but I ~think~ we're out-doing the movie industry by as much as 2* what they earn. A quick google glance took me here and here as noteworthy mentions as to how the game industry is earning more than the movie industry. But if I can say this without anyone giggling like a fourth grader, I think the, *ahem*, "Adult Entertainment" industry out-earns them both. But if you exclude the naughty forms of entertainment, games are number one (unless I'm totally wrong and these two articles are crappy, hehe).

Quote: "I agree with matt, blaming games for violent behaviour is just stupid"

Two people agreeing with me in the same thread? I think this marks a milestone in TGC history, lol. Then again, I posted this thinking/ hoping people would agree with me on this subject because I need a break from arguing for a few months/ years, lol


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 10:30
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You're posting this stuff in a gaming community dude. EVERYONE is going to agree with you on this. I agree with you.

I recommend checking out https://www.videogamevoters.org/ and getting an email subscription to Gamasutra. GamaDaily just had an article that reported a Louisiana bill just passed that would fine minors for buying violent games was just put on hold by a federal judge while the ESA brought up a lawsuit which will likely succeed.

The defense for anti-games is slowly weakening. I saw a violent games special on PBS, and this senator talked about methods he used in his own home to regulate his kid's exposure to media. This kid was an animal. This senator dad just kind of stood behind the kid and was saying, "Johnny," (whatever the name was) "Your computer time is up." This kid was not about to give up his aquarium or protoss vs zerg battle or whatever the hell he was doing. This kid started yelling. The dad ended up having to pull the kid away from the monitor. Wow. Good face there bro, on television too.


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Fallout
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 11:15 Edited at: 22nd Jun 2006 11:17
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hehe. I think games are responsible for messing up our kids to a small degree. There's no way you can blame them exclusively, but I find it pretty hard to believe that something that you do for 50% of your waking life (some kids) doesn't have any effect on you. I'm not saying playing Tekken will make you go out and start trying to snap peoples arms, but I don't believe it won't have any effect on how you perceive hand to hand violance.

On ya average kid, playing fighter games a lot will just make them aware of martial arts. On lively kids, it might make em play about with their mates and replicate the moves for fun. On messed up kids, they might end up using them on innocent people (edit: Their own crappy version obviously! ). I don't think games make trouble/violence, but they might help magnify what's already there.

Just my thoughts.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 11:29
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I agree, games rated 18 are to be played by 18 year olds and over whatever parent buys a game of that rate for their kid will no doubt face consequences, or if they have good parenting then those games are fine, its the responsibility of the parents, not the game makers. Its exactly like buying a 18 movie for their kid, I know lets buy the playboy mansion and GTA for my kid, then complain about sexual scenes in GTA...pathetic, some of your American politicians and 'typical' parents are hilarious, but then so are our politicians, just watch politicians argue, usually the one loosing will get really shirty, when Tony Blair gets shirty, its hilarious.

I am sparticus and so is my wife
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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 12:30
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Lol, shirty? Is that when they do the little tug at their collar and you can see the beads of sweat dripping down from their temple?


I'm going to eat you!
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Fallout
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 14:23
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hehe. Shirty = pissed off, loud, rude, but a toned down version.

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Flindiana Jones
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 16:43
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Matt, I agree with you *nearly faints*

I agree totally that it's the fault of STUPID parents that most of this happens, NOT the fault of the industry. The only exception is when kids play these games at other peoples (ie: their friends) houses. When I was little, I went to a friends house and played Mortal Kombat on his Super Nintendo; I merely saw it as a cool way to beat the snot out of him. (I didn't like him a whole lot) I never told my parents because they had never said anything about playing violent video games, until after columbine the kid's mom threw it out. I told my parents that happened, and expressed incredulity at how anyone could be dumb enough to think that would make you kill someone. My parents freaked out, and THEN we had a little talk about what to play and what not to. After that, I never did play violent video games without permission until I got older, when I was better equipped to deal with them in terms of maturity.

All this to say, parents should teach their kids to be responsible, and regulate what they play very carefully.

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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 18:38
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The Daily Show--- now *that's* a dependable source

I agree with what you said--- amazing. But if you paid attention to the headlines, it's Hillary Clinton (D), James Lieberman (D) and Jack Thompson who are leading the war against violent videogames.


"I understand creative people. After all, I worked with towel designers." - Ray Kassar, former head of Atari
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 19:31
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The only reason any politician cares about this is to gain media exposure, hell elections are coming up. The PMRC was the same thing. Federal statistics show youth violence at a 30 year low (in the US anyway) and of the over 3,000 studies that have been done on violence in the media making people more violent all but 3 have been discredited. and of those 3 none of them found a direct correlation between movie/video game violence and an increased likelyhood of being violent. They did however show that people who are already violent are attracted to violent media (Duh).
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 20:18
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Quote: "I agree with what you said"

That's the second time we've ever agreed on anything... this and, for the most part, music. See? If WE can find common ground then anyone can lol

Quote: "But if you paid attention to the headlines, it's Hillary Clinton (D), James Lieberman (D) and Jack Thompson who are leading the war against violent videogames."

I know Clinton (she's not MY Senator because she's not REALLY a New Yorker... Chuck Schumer is MY Senator how can you help a state if you don't really care about it?) and Lieberman are evil about video games... I posted a thread about that a while back, after they spoke at some event after ONE study was conducted that said our industry is evil (and that study was inconclusive with a poorly-devised focus group). If Clinton wins the Presidency in 2008, I'm worried... petrified... that it will only spell disaster for our country and, more importantly, the game industry (well, more important to me anyway). That's why in 2008, I'll be voting for the person who says in interviews that he or she plays video games and NOT what the people at these congressional hearings said...

One of the politicians who spoke at this said "I'm a gamer. I used to play pong," and then he literally made bleeping sounds and replicated the game with his hands. Then another politician said "I'm a gamer, too... I've worked my way up to Civilization IV, and while I haven't beaten it yet, I do understand the core principals of it." Is that all it takes to be a gamer nowadays? Jeesh, I remember when it used to be a source of pride, beating as many games as humanly possible, THEN EARNING the title of gamer

Quote: "On messed up kids, they might end up using them on innocent people (edit: Their own crappy version obviously! ). I don't think games make trouble/violence, but they might help magnify what's already there."

I agree to that. Games, movies, etc. might influence a mentally-deficient or genuinely problematic/ evil kid to violence. But that's EXACTLY why our ratings system is in place... to keep naughty kids, or kids who don't know any better, from hurting others (or themselves) trying to replicate moves. An interesting story I saw on NY1 (a local news station) last summer involved this handicapped kid in the Bronx who crawled out of his bedroom window and onto a fire escape and got stuck there, and the fire department had to come in with a ladder to help him down. When they asked the kid why he did it, he said he saw it while playing Max Payne. What did the media do? Rant and rave about the GAME and how "evil" it is. Did they yell at the parents for letting their kid play a game like that? Of course not. At the heart of it all, the parents are to blame, NOT us, the entertainment industry.

PS.- I've already got a membership with Gamasutra It's through them that I get GD Magazine... they rock the house I strongly recommend them as well.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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JerBil
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 20:37
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On the other side of this, how hard could it be for game producers
to actually make a decent game without using inuendo and four
letter words? It's like "if you don't like it, too bad, cause
that's our right?"
Come on, if the industry doesn't take care of this stuff then the politians will.

-JerBil

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Oddmind
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 20:45
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PSH..

when i picked up 007 goldeneye when i was a kid I didnt have TIME to go "out" and hurt people. I was inside all day. Kids that play videogames for 50% of their day are going to sleep for 30% and that leaves 20% to hurt people.about 5% is eating and maybe 2% taking a shower. Probably another 3% for walking the dog and 10% left listening to their mom yelling at them for not doing anything else.

All in all Id say its at a steady 0% right now... whatever that i was talking about.

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Fallout
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 20:48
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You totally missed off using the toilet and self-pleasuring there oddmind. Your child-like mind and incompetent oversights sicken me.

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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 21:53
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Quote: "On the other side of this, how hard could it be for game producers
to actually make a decent game without using inuendo and four
letter words? It's like "if you don't like it, too bad, cause
that's our right?"
Come on, if the industry doesn't take care of this stuff then the politians will."


Thank heaven no-one buys those violent games then, eh? I mean, imagine if they actually paid money for them - it'd only encourage the industry to make more, wouldn't it?

Oh wait...

Bento Lunch
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 21:56 Edited at: 22nd Jun 2006 21:57
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What's more dangerous then a 105lb nerd attempting Tekkan moves on strangers in the street?

A bee probably.

Quote: " the game industry is second to the movie industry"


As Matt said, the game industry earns much more. So in my books, that places them at first.


It's like a Megaton Cat radar, 24 hours a day.
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Oddmind
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 22:11
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guess its time to erad the entire internet again... this years gonna be a toughy...

formerly KrazyJimmy

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 22:23
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Quote: "James Lieberman (D)"

That'd be Joe, not James, of Connecticut - and believe me, he's no (D) (unless it stands for douche in his case) he's a (R) all the way, despite the stupid letter.

No worries tho, he's gone in november along with a lot of other corrupt losers.

Hilary? gah, don't get me started - I wish she'd go away, the spinless c-rag

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
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Regene Ratez
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 22:24
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haha, why I sooo wanner be like splinter cell rite about now... mmmmm..

Still i think that children, at a young age thing this stuff is kinda real, an so lik go out an totaly pwn people 4 real.

I guess when it comes right down to it y'kno, its how they are brought up by their parents. heh chavs!


coz im totaly uber at games
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 22:50
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Quote: "Hilary? gah, don't get me started - I wish she'd go away, the spinless c-rag"


At least you don't have any drunken Kennedys.
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 23:07 Edited at: 22nd Jun 2006 23:16
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Quote: "What's more dangerous then a 105lb nerd attempting Tekkan moves on strangers in the street? A bee probably."

Amen to that. Bees can actually kill people, if said people are allergic anyway (or if you're walking down the street covered in honey from head to toe).

Quote: "No worries tho, he's gone in november along with a lot of other corrupt losers."

We can only hope and pray. I strongly suggest that all of you who live in the United States actually go out and vote in November, because not doing so might cost us our right to make video games how WE want to. The last thing we need is parents not claiming responsibility for their kids and congress placing more restrictions on us, the game industry and entertainment industry as a whole, just to appease the less mentally-fortunate parents amongst us.

Quote: "Hilary? gah, don't get me started - I wish she'd go away, the spinless c-rag"

I swear, my mom is the only New Yorker who voted for Hillary, lol. Everywhere I go, other NYS residents all hate her just as much as I do. How did she win the election again? And if she becomes President I think it'll be safe to say our industry will be devastated by her crappy views toward the lot of us.

What I REALLY want to know is how these people make the connection between kids shooting cops in GTA and those same kids then leaving their homes, stealing cars, and shooting cops in real life. Has a mentally-stable human ever, in the course of recorded history, done something like that? And how many kids do you know of that can take down a police officer?

I'm going to set my Vaio to record that episode the Daily Show this afternoon, mostly so I can get that guy's name who said, in different words, that poor kids are more likely to be inspired by violent games than rich kids. I can't believe he isn't under fire from the media for saying such a thing!

Edit:
Quote: "Kids that play videogames for 50% of their day are going to sleep for 30% and that leaves 20% to hurt people.about 5% is eating and maybe 2% taking a shower. Probably another 3% for walking the dog and 10% left listening to their mom yelling at them for not doing anything else."

Wait... isn't that 120%?


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 23:21 Edited at: 22nd Jun 2006 23:25
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To be frank, most "hardcore" gamers don't have what it takes to commit crimes the media has long labeled as the "crazed gamer crime". Hardcore gamers who think life is GTA are usually

a) Very out of shape
b) Are afraid of approaching people, let alone mugging someone
c) Couldn't really be bothered

It's usually the already messed up people who commit crims after playing a video game. The same people who go on shooting sprees because they claim a metal band told them to do it. Hell, there are wierd murder cases in the entire animal kingdom. Like that gorrila mother/daughter duo that went on a killing spree in their tribe? Oh yeah, them monkeys been playing too much Max Payne.


It's like a Megaton Cat radar, 24 hours a day.
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 23:33 Edited at: 22nd Jun 2006 23:37
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Quote: "We can only hope and pray. I strongly suggest that all of you who live in the United States actually go out and vote in November, because not doing so might cost us our right to make video games how WE want to. "


Not that voting isn't important, but no politician will be on our side in this fight, at least not publicly, so hard to tell who we would want in a case like this. Certain things are just taboo for any public office, usually those things pertaining to "the safety of our children", hence if someone publicly announced their bid for office followed by a speech about how people need to leave the videogame industy alone, they likely will not win that office as to many damn seniors vote.

Personally this will not really affect me, but I am worried about other designers rights. Heck if Rockstar came to me and said we will give you 250,000 to design the next GTA I would have to turn them down. I just could not go home to the kids and when the asked me what I did that day tell em something like "Oh kiddo today daddy designed the rape sequences for my game". I think games like this have gone to far, but I will not try to force my opinion on the industry, it sells well so people must want it.
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2006 23:46
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If you would downright refuse to get paid a huge bag of cash to design the next GTA, then you do not belong on this forum or in game making in general.

Shame on you.


It's like a Megaton Cat radar, 24 hours a day.
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TDP Enterprises
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 00:28
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Quote: "Heck if Rockstar came to me and said we will give you 250,000 to design the next GTA I would have to turn them down."
Send 'em my way.

Quote: ""Oh kiddo today daddy designed the rape sequences for my game". "
Thats not fair, rape is several steps above what gta has involved in its games.

Quote: "Shame on you."

Ditto.

Snow Wars is making its return, check out the Game Design Theory board for more info...
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 01:14
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Quote: "If you would downright refuse to get paid a huge bag of cash to design the next GTA, then you do not belong on this forum or in game making in general. "


So are you saying an artist who chooses not to paint certain types of subjects should not be an artist, or a musician who is offered a contract from some record company to perform a type of music he can't stand should quit music. Sorry I think you are dead wrong. Writing/designing is an art and should be what you love. If you are in it for the money and not the satisfaction, great for you, for me I would get no personal satisfaction from working on a project like that and would be miserable working on it. Money is great, I want more, but as the saying goes "you can't take it with you". The day I die I hope I can look back and think I contributed something to this world and making the next GTA, in my opinion, would not be a contribution I would choose to make. I love games, and I don't mind abstract violence at all. Unlike alot of games where there may be alot of violence this game strikes me personally as attempting to appeal to the lowest common denominator. I like games like Call of duty/medal of honor, where though you are killing "real people" it is allowing you to experience something you would have no chance to (fighting in WWII). GTA is a little to close to "real" to me, heck I don't want to se a game loosely based on Columbine, morally to me it would be wrong and I would not work on such a project.

Truth be told however I hope I can find work in the educational/medical field of gamemaking.

Quote: "Thats not fair, rape is several steps above what gta has involved in its games."


True but I don't think it will be to long before it pops up, and heck murder carries the greatest penalties in our justice system so I guess rape is lower down the scale. If they think people will buy it have no doubt they would put it in.
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Perokreco
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 01:31
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Oh my god there are kids playing GTA. And there are kids playing HOMM5. We should ban those games. Its matter of time before someone kids start throwing fireballs at each other while raping innnocent girls. Common. Your parents found that it is easier to ban you from playing Mortal Combat then to explain it to you what the game is about. No offence but i would call that bad parenting. And that kids parent throwing violent game after Columbine. WTF? I was 5 when I play Duke Nukem 3d and Wolfestein with my dad, i played until i was killed, and then he played. It kind of worked until he found cheats on the net, after that its been little unfair
I was minor when i played Manhunt. Based on that, I should be a serial killer going around and killing people. Except that I am a pacifist, never been in a fight in my life and recently got a very high shcolarship for Hong Kong.
I dont know how can someone seriosly think that videogame sare in any even slighlty part responsible for crime. And that hot coffee mod in GTA. Wow a kid could see a sex scene. Like he saw a devil being born and not some perfectly natural part of human life. He is no longer thinking that kids just appear out of nowhere and because of that he will have traumas until the end of his life.
It isnt goverments job to do parenting it is job of parents, goverment should better be working on making life conditions of such kids better, ensuring them education and social justice.
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 01:46
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Quote: "Oh kiddo today daddy designed the rape sequences for my game"
I'm a hardcore GTA fan. I've played and beaten them all... GTA, GTA 2, GTA London, GTA 3, GTA VC, and GTA SA. Okay, almost all, because I haven't beaten GTA Liberty City Stories yet. Yet. In none of these games have I *ever* seen a rape sequence.

Quote: "Shame on you."

Quote: "So are you saying an artist who chooses not to paint certain types of subjects should not be an artist"

I dunno, I'm taking Megaton's side on this one. I'm a musician, and I Hate country music with a capital H, but if someone walked up to me and said "I'll pay you $250,000 to record a honky-tonk album," guess what? You'd see Matt Rock's first Country album hitting the shelves.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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Perokreco
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 01:48
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Quote: "I'm a hardcore GTA fan. I've played and beaten them all... GTA, GTA 2, GTA London, GTA 3, GTA VC, and GTA SA. Okay, almost all, because I haven't beaten GTA Liberty City Stories yet. Yet. In none of these games have I *ever* seen a rape sequence."

And what if it would be there?
It would just made kids more aware of these kinds of things and to be more carefull. I am all for rape in games.
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 02:07
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Quote: "I'm a hardcore GTA fan. I've played and beaten them all... GTA, GTA 2, GTA London, GTA 3, GTA VC, and GTA SA. Okay, almost all, because I haven't beaten GTA Liberty City Stories yet. Yet. In none of these games have I *ever* seen a rape sequence."


I didn't say you had, but don't think it won't happen contoversy sells and I have no problem with them doing it if they want to. What I said is it is something I would not want to be a part of. Now I don't think it is something that would likely be shown but I could picture a cut scene where the main character throws some girl into a dark alley, you hear a bunch of nasty sounds, and the guy comes out and zips up his fly or something and if the package is labeled correctly more power to em.

Quote: "I'm a musician, and I Hate country music with a capital H, but if someone walked up to me and said "I'll pay you $250,000 to record a honky-tonk album," guess what? You'd see Matt Rock's first Country album hitting the shelves."


That's fine Matt, we just differ here I personally will not do anything for money (though I would record a honky tonk album be fun to write songs about pick up trucks and shotguns). I bet there is a line somewhere that you would not cross regardless of the money. People who will do anything for money however lead to things like Enron, but that is just human nature I guess.
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TDP Enterprises
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 02:07
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Quote: "I am all for rape in games."
Uh huh...

Snow Wars is making its return, check out the Game Design Theory board for more info...
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Wandering Swordsman
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 02:12
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OddMind:
Quote: "the game industry is second to the movie industry, theres no way its going anywhere anytime soon."


They banned liquor for a while.

Hmmm, I wonder. If they ban violent video games, will gamers go to the same lengths to get their games? *Two shadowy figures stand in a deserted alley way. Money changes hands. A copy of Quake 2 is quickly thrust into the gamer’s trembling hand.*

I can see the headlines "Illegal game shipment intercepted, 200 Quake 2 CD's found hidden in shipment of mafia controlled booze."


Matt Rock:
Quote: "What I REALLY want to know is how these people make the connection between kids shooting cops in GTA and those same kids then leaving their homes, stealing cars, and shooting cops in real life."


Let's not forget the complementary semi-automatic that shipped with the game! You always hear "The games 'made' them shoot everyone." but it's rarer to hear the question "Why did these children have firearms?"

With almost every case I've bothered to look into, there have been really messed up non-VG related circumstances that pushed the children shooter(s) over the edge.

Megaton Cat:
Quote: "Hell, there are wierd murder cases in the entire animal kingdom. Like that gorrila mother/daughter duo that went on a killing spree in their tribe? Oh yeah, them monkeys been playing too much Max Payne."


To much Max Payne, or not enough? "I lied to myself that it was over. I was still alive, my loved ones were still dead. It wasn't over."

If I campaign against it and run for office, you think I'd get any votes? "We need to crack down on these gaming monkeys!"

(Did that really happen? If you've got a link to an article/report please post it.)

Hobgoblin Lord:
Quote: "but no politician will be on our side in this fight"


I will. I will center my campaign around less violent games for monkeys, and more violent games for humans! We have to end the madness, think of the futures of all those little chimps being corrupted by GTA.

Hobgoblin Lord:
Quote: "I just could not go home to the kids and when the asked me what I did that day tell em something like "Oh kiddo today daddy designed the rape sequences for my game"."


IMO Rockstar has a tendency to create games that cross several lines, and sell them not based off amazing gameplay but off how far into the gutter they're latest game will take you.

TDP Enterprises:
Quote: "Thats not fair, rape is several steps above what gta has involved in its games."

Really? Illegal crime sim... rape is a crime, illegal crime sim... hmmm.... hot coffee anyone?


Hobgoblin Lord:
Quote: "If they think people will buy it have no doubt they would put it in."

The sick thing is it's probably true.

Matt Rock:
Quote: "Yet. In none of these games have I *ever* seen a rape sequence."

Just wait for when Rockstar says "We need to crank things up another notch!

Perokreco:
Quote: "And what if it would be there?
It would just made kids more aware of these kinds of things and to be more carefull. I am all for rape in games. "

You want 'kids' playing a game where they rape people?!!

For the record, I have GTA1-3.

When I dream,
I carry a sword in one hand,
a gun in the other...
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Perokreco
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 02:42
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Quote: "You want 'kids' playing a game where they rape people?!!
"

Well, teenagers certainly. Those games could have a Pg-13 rating and very violent games Pg-7, and I dont see anything wrong with 5 yearold killing aliens.
I did that when i was 5-6 and i am one of few not nationalist, pacifist people around here.
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Wandering Swordsman
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 03:17 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2006 03:26
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Perokreco:
Quote: "Well, teenagers certainly."

... ? You want a child (With parental guidance??? ) to play a game in which he rapes people.

So it's ok for little Jimmy of age 6 to play a game of 'Rape Fest 8' in your book? So long as he has his parents ok?

I'm strongly against VG-censorship. But, your somehow managing to push me into the enemy camp here...

When I dream,
I carry a sword in one hand,
a gun in the other...
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Perokreco
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 03:28
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Quote: "

So it's ok for little Jimmy of age 6 to play a game of 'Rape Fest 8' in your book? So long as he has his parents ok?

I'm strongly against VG-censorship. But, your somehow managing to push me into the enemy camp here...
"

Note that i said teenagers, not 6 years old, and that games with sexual explicit content should have a pg13 rating. Can you explain me this, teenagers have sex(although at most places age of consent is 16) when they are 13 or 15, but cant watch pron or play games involving sex until they are 18.
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Wandering Swordsman
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 03:33
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Perokreco:
Quote: "teenagers have sex"

*Nods his head* Yes they do. But we're not just talking of sex we're talking of rape.

Perokreco:
Quote: "Note that i said teenagers, not 6 years old, and that games with sexual explicit content should have a pg13 rating. "

So lets allow 13 year olds then (PG13) to play games in which they don't just have sex, they rape people.

Perokreco:
Quote: "It would just made kids more aware of these kinds of things and to be more carefull."

This will teach them to avoid rape, and to be safe.

I'm not understanding your logic here...

When I dream,
I carry a sword in one hand,
a gun in the other...
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Flindiana Jones
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Location: Bosnian Power
Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 03:38
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[Sarcasm]Don't you see wandering swordsman? Commiting rape in a game will make you think "I can do it to other people, no WAY is it going to happen to me in real life!" and so your confidence will make you invincible![/Sarcasm]

Seriously though, I don't think one can generalize about this almost at all. Some people aren't ready at 15 what others may be at 8. It depends a whole lot on emotional makeup. And true as it is that teens have sex at 14 and earlier, sex != rape. Showing rape is worse then "normal" sex. And as I heard it, the sex scene was unlockable, not a mod. I could be wrong...never played them, as my mom would eat me if she got wind of it. ever.

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Wandering Swordsman
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 03:47 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2006 03:47
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Flindiana Jones:
Quote: "[Sarcasm]Don't you see wandering swordsman? Commiting rape in a game will make you think "I can do it to other people, no WAY is it going to happen to me in real life!" and so your confidence will make you invincible![/Sarcasm]"


LOL!!!

Flindiana Jones:
Quote: "And as I heard it, the sex scene was unlockable, not a mod."

You mean in GTA? the scene is in the game, but not coded to allow you to play it. You need to Mod the game. (Big lawsuit over that wasn't there? But lets not get side track by Hot Coffea Mod.)

Perokreco:
Quote: "It would just made kids more aware of these kinds of things and to be more carefull."

I've been so blind... I see what we should do now!!!

We need to get our children to commit every kind of crime and atrocity humanly possible in a virtual environment. And once they've experienced it first hand from the perpetrators perspective, they will 'know' what is out there and avoid it.

Thank you! This is the answer to stopping all the evil in the world!
*Begins to vomit in defiance*

(Normally I'd end with a Kiwi Emoticon, but...)

When I dream,
I carry a sword in one hand,
a gun in the other...
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Perokreco
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 03:49
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Quote: "Some people aren't ready at 15 what others may be at 8It depends a whole lot on emotional makeup"

Thats why I am for idea that parents should be judging what games their kids play not the goverment. Parents know their kids the best.
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TDP Enterprises
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 03:49
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Quote: "teenagers have sex"

I don't...

Snow Wars is making its return, check out the Game Design Theory board for more info...
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Wandering Swordsman
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 04:06 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2006 04:07
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Perokreco:
Quote: "Thats why I am for idea that parents should be judging what games their kids play not the goverment. Parents know their kids the best. "

Perokreco, you are somehow telling me that we should let our children not just watch rape, but actively participate in a virtual simulation of rape? (To protect them from rape? "Look son, this is what rape looks like. Now that you've seen it, watch out for it… and don't do it.")

Your position is the reason politicians win votes to take away parents rights to tell their children what they can and cannot play. Their afraid someone with your position will tell their children to play this kind of game. And that the children who play these games of rape, will then rape the other parent's children.

Do you see the basis for the fear?

Flindiana Jones:
Quote: "never played them, as my mom would eat me if she got wind of it. ever."

Haven't played the Mod myself, don't plan to. Stay far away from them, or as you say, your mother will eat you! *Crunch*

Please, explain your position to me Perokreco.
(Maybe I just don't understand what your trying to tell me yet.)

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a gun in the other...
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Steve J
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 04:15
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@TDP: I would recommend editing your post before megaton comes back!


Team Artist, and Storyline Designer. [Team: Steve, Saikoro, and help from Megaton Cat]
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Perokreco
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 04:25 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2006 04:25
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Quote: "Perokreco, you are somehow telling me that we should let our children not just watch rape, but actively participate in a virtual simulation of rape? (To protect them from rape? "Look son, this is what rape looks like. Now that you've seen it, watch out for it… and don't do it.")"

No i dont. Main purpose of games is to have fun. I play two distinctive types of games, games which i play when i am tired and want some relaxation(for example:Far Cry, Manhunt, Gta etc.) and games where I want an intelectual challenge(for example:Broken Sword, Civilization, Syberia, War in the pacific etc.) I think that games featurin rape would fall in the first category.

Quote: "Their afraid someone with your position will tell their children to play this kind of game. And that the children who play these games of rape, will then rape the other parent's children."


Well kids are already rapeing other kids, arent they? We can assume that kids who rape someone would be kinds of kids who would play these games the most, but is it possible if they relinquish their stress in the game they wouldnt go around rapeing people?
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Wandering Swordsman
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 04:45
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So a Rape sim is a game of relaxation. And young Jimmy should be playing it for fun, so he can enjoy rape to it's fullest. (Nothing better then a bit of relaxing rape is it?)

Quote: "Well kids are already rapeing other kids, arent they? We can assume that kids who rape someone would be kinds of kids who would play these games the most, but is it possible if they relinquish their stress in the game they wouldnt go around rapeing people? "


Hmmm, lets see. They already are the kind who 'would' for what ever reason go around on a raping spree. And this software helps stave off their bad habit of rape... For a time. So lets give them software that lets them live sick fantasies until the software just doesn't do it for them. It's not real enough... so now these children will make an attempt in real life.

And don’t forget, those who would not normally commit this act may start by playing these rape sims, and move up to the real thing. (We’re talking about children mind you…)

I don’t think satisfying a rapists need to rape is the solution.

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a gun in the other...
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TDP Enterprises
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 04:46
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Quote: "@TDP: I would recommend editing your post before megaton comes back!"
But that would mean that i didn't want a megatonic comeback from him.

Snow Wars is making its return, check out the Game Design Theory board for more info...
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Perokreco
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 04:56
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Quote: "So a Rape sim is a game of relaxation. And young Jimmy should be playing it for fun, so he can enjoy rape to it's fullest. (Nothing better then a bit of relaxing rape is it?)"

Yes it is.
Quote: "
And don’t forget, those who would not normally commit this act may start by playing these rape sims, and move up to the real thing. (We’re talking about children mind you…)"

Were talking about teenagers, and they wouldnt move to the real thing. By the same logic, i wouldnt be writing this, i would be going around the town sending fireballs and killing peoples with AK-47. But I am not doing that am I?
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Steve J
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 05:12
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Society has gone into abyss. When I was a kid in the 80's, noone would talk about rape in public, in fear of being banished socially. Now you guys are talking about how rape should be shown visually, and even have a video game on it...rated for 13 year olds?!?


Team Artist, and Storyline Designer. [Team: Steve, Saikoro, and help from Megaton Cat]
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Wandering Swordsman
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2006 05:16 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2006 05:18
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Quote: "Were talking about teenagers,"

We're talking about rape sims for PG13 (PG13 means Parental Guidance until 13 years old. Not R13 restricted till 13 years old) So if a parents says Jimmy of 6 years can play it...

But I'll concede this point. Teenagers only then. (13+)
(I'm not agreeing with it, I'm just saying I will treat it as R13 in this debate.)

Quote: "and they wouldnt move to the real thing"

Why not? We're talking about a setting made to depict a sexual crime with the objective of arousing the user. If the 'game' no longer is enough to satisfy the user's lust, then why wouldn't he turn to the real thing?


Quote: "By the same logic, i wouldnt be writing this, i would be going around the town sending fireballs and killing peoples with AK-47. But I am not doing that am I?"

Violence in video games and sex are two different things. If you wish to debate murder sims- (Not talking Quake/Half-Life I mean games where the sole purpose is to stalk an innocent unarmed human and brutally kill them, for fun.) Then we can do so at a later time.

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I carry a sword in one hand,
a gun in the other...
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