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Geek Culture / Congressional hearings on video games

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 17:59
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Quote: "No one at the age of 14 is either phyically or emotionally, or mentally mature enough to have sex at that age, normal or not. "


Funny how only about 200 years ago girls at 14 would finish school, have children, and work on the family farm. This went on for decades, and now all the sudden some guy who never leaves his house says they're not capable?


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Flindiana Jones
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 18:01
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umm...I'm not sure this discussion is supposed to go this far...into the R rated realm...

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TDP Enterprises
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 18:02
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Quote: "But what kind of kid would do one night stands "

Chya, me.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 18:15
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Quote: "I really don't get how people think that sex is bad now a days. 14 year olds have been having sex since the dawn of man. In shakespeares Romeo and Juliette, they were both supposed to be somthing like 13."


To quote Jurrasic Park 2 "that's what we call progress". And considering Romeo and Juliette both commited suicide I don't think that's a very good example.

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TDP Enterprises
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 18:19
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Ok, um, flindiana is right, i think you went a little off topic. We went from talking about "out of touch jacka**es"(daily show) to debating at what age its ok to have sex, which with soem of the ages being mentioned, is highly unlikely for most members of this forum without the involvment of $$$.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 18:41 Edited at: 26th Jun 2006 18:43
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Anyway, I do think developers have to accept some level of responsibility in reguards to the games they produce. Computer games are still very much reguarded as a teenagers play thing, and while more of these teenagers are growing up to be adults, it's not yet an adult dominated industry. It's frankly easier to target teens and kids with increasingly blood thrusty games, and then blame the clueless perants, then it is not to produce these unpleasn't games in the first place. I am not saying the whole blame lands on the industry's sholders, but that recent video promotion of quake 4 was far too detailed, and publically availible on most major gaming websites without age varification.

But game industry isn't the only thing doing it, I have to admit when they started showing bit's of Homers interior I stopped watching the simpsons (refering to the badger in the dog house scene). Itchy and scratchy was pushing the bounderies, it was a social comment on the direction entertainment is taking, when they intergrated it into the main show that was taking it too far I felt.

As video games approch photorealistic graphics more and more, both the perants and industry must accept responsibility.

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Saikoro
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 18:47
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Quote: "As video games approch photorealistic graphics more and more, it must accept responsibility for what it does with them."

I still don't get why videogames would be banned and not pron movies. Movies are about as photorealistic as you can get.

Anyways, what it really comes down to is freedom of speech. The fact is is that parents have a warning about games like that, they have means to take away those games, and more than enough countless options to stop their children from playing said games if they do not want them to. Developers aren't sitting down thinking "I wonder if we can get little Billy to shoot up his school", they want to make a high selling game. Violence and sex sells, but as I said before, it is in many ways preventable. I would like you to give me an example where the parents cannot stop their child from playing a game at their home.


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Flindiana Jones
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 18:53
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When they are like Terry Shaivo...

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Kenjar
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 19:03
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Quote: "Developers aren't sitting down thinking "I wonder if we can get little Billy to shoot up his school""


I am in no way saying that computer games on their own are the cause of such violence. As with all things, it's shades of gray. Obviousally these children have access to the weapons in real life, and where able to bring it into the school. Obviousally they are in such a highened state of emotional volitility, usually directed at a teacher or student, or perhaps the image of the school itself as a place of their own suffering. there may even be an underlaying mental condition that was up until that point undetected. Perhaps their perants where highly abusive. But while no single factor leads to such behaviour, the simple fact is that the reduction of these factors, might well prevent such outbreaks. There was a kid in the UK who beat someone around the head, and he boy actually said he did it because it looked cool in manhunt. Obviously the kid had problems to begin with, and there is only 1 case that I know of. But reguardless of weather the developer intended it or not, it did happen. What was the victims life worth? Well, whatever profit the company had made on that particular game. Also, while kids have been joy riding for long before GTA ever came out, it does provide another source of negitive idea's. I wonder if any kid who's gone joy riding has done it in real life because the game experiance no longer provided enough of a thrill. And remember, it's the thrill that people do this sort of thing for. If even 1 car has been stollen under GTA's influance, and someone's been killed due to it, the price of that victims life again, becomes whatever profit the company made writing it.

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 19:30 Edited at: 26th Jun 2006 19:33
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Quote: "A game called sexual preditor? where the user must go to clubs, drug women and rape them? No there are limits, and it is partly down to developers not to break them, because once someone does, others will do the same."

That game sounds AWSOME! How about you and I co-produce it?

Quote: "I don't want to get into this, but I hate the way that "pregnancy" is now a negative term."

The embro is a parasite... it starves the mother and gaurentees extreme stress for 9 months and depression for 18 years.

Quote: "Who's going to educate them? They've missed their chance, obviousally their own perants have failed to give them tools for peranthood, so is it their fault? Or the fault of their perants? And the perants before that, and so forth."

It is Parent not perant...
And if their own parents failed to help them then OBVIOUSLY they should not have had children THUS should be arrested for being a stupid whore who only cares about sex. Got impregnated and REFUSED to be the responsible adult and send their child to an orphanage where at least they would have SOME moral upbringing?

Quote: "Children have more pocket money then ever before. "

THAT... is why I mug them.

Quote: "I wanted a computer game then my mother or father would purchase it for me of a birthday, or for christmas. "

So it is not YOU who is buying the game behind your parents back?

Quote: "Sex is natural, so is killing"

Hmm... killing is a natural way to solve problems... are you apart of the corrupt presidents league?

Quote: "Well that's a big fat generalization right there. I think they SHOULD have sex, as long as they get a condom and get a doctor to test them for AIDS. If the girl doesn't want to get pregnant, she can have oral sex. "

There is a story somewhere about a like 7 year old who persuaded a girl to have oral sex with him. She was not 'aware' but he was...

Quote: "Anyway, I do think developers have to accept some level of responsibility in reguards to the games they produce."

I just bought a porn movie! cool I think I'll sue the guy who made it because... it contains porn (snickers).

Quote: " Computer games are still very much reguarded as a teenagers play thing, and while more of these teenagers are growing up to be adults, it's not yet an adult dominated industry."

Yes it is...

Quote: "Obviousally these children have access to the weapons in real life"

Great... their pop kills people and leaves an AK47 out for them to play with.

Quote: "There was a kid in the UK who beat someone around the head, and he boy actually said he did it because it looked cool in manhunt."

Misdirection. The kid said that because his parents neglected him and did not talk about beating the crap out of people being bad.

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Fallout
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 19:34
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Kanjar, take a chill pill.

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Saikoro
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 19:35
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Quote: "What was the victims life worth? Well, whatever profit the company had made on that particular game."

Which is a pinpoint that you're saying that the game itself was the only factor.

Okay, little billy has access to guns, gets no counseling from school, gets picked on at school, gets into drugs and gangs and stealing and killing. There are at least 50 other factors greater than what videogames he plays that has an effect on billy and how he turned out (many of which can be fizzled away by good parenting). No one was saying that video games don't effect the kid, that would be plain naive, but merely angry at the fact that instead of pinpointing and focusing efforts on gun, gang, and theivery control, along with parental self awareness campaigns and whatnot, what they do is go after game developers. If billy had a revolver in his room and Manhunt, what sense does it make to take away the Manhunt when the focus should be on that revolver?


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Manticore Night
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 21:46 Edited at: 26th Jun 2006 21:48
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Quote: "Hmm... killing is a natural way to solve problems... are you apart of the corrupt presidents league?"
That's because it is a natural way. If it wasn't there would never have been wars. People like death and violence, the romans had gladiators, the french had public exectutions(and I think the english did too). And now everyone has video games, which in my opinion is a hell of alot safer than public exectutions, don't ya think?

Quote: "There is a story somewhere about a like 7 year old who persuaded a girl to have oral sex with him. She was not 'aware' but he was..."
So what? The girl was just stupid, she didn't get AIDS did she? There really wasn't any real harm done unless she got an STD. Anyway, I'm talking about TEENAGERS (aged 13-19) not 7 year olds.

Quote: "The embro is a parasite... it starves the mother and gaurentees extreme stress for 9 months and depression for 18 years."
Then I guess we're all little parasites.

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Medieval Coder
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 22:07 Edited at: 26th Jun 2006 22:07
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Well halo 2 is not to blame...

My brother used to go outside, punch my little brother...
Today~
To lazy to even get out of his chair
Is afrid of the UPS man...
And couldnt use a gun to save his life...he doesnt even know how to turn off the safty of an airsoft gun..
O yea....he also gained about 50 - 60 lbs

Now the real question is, if there were not games what would people spend their free time on?
Riots?
Parties?
Fights?
ahh yes Thinking up massive complicated pranks?
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Kenjar
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 22:12 Edited at: 26th Jun 2006 22:13
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Merranvo, thanks, couldn't ask for a better case in hand! Look what video games did to Merranvo!

@Fallout: Don't do drugs. :-|

@Saikoro: Read what I wrote again, I said there where many factors and the trick is to reduce as many of them as possible. Each time someone pushes a barrier in game, film or music, someone else will come along and push it even futher, then someone else will push it again. There are sooo many great games out there that don't need all this dark crap in it, and there are soo many uniqe new styles that could be invented, but instead the makers of GTA and manhunt have made it their living to create games with nasty themes. I don't know about you but by making this acceptable now, I have to wonder what will be acceptable in the future, and if you want your child to be exposed to it.

Quote: "So what? The girl was just stupid, she didn't get AIDS did she? There really wasn't any real harm done unless she got an STD. Anyway, I'm talking about TEENAGERS (aged 13-19) not 7 year olds."


Sex leads to pregnacy, I assume you are bright enough to realise that the magical stork doesn't really bring children. What you might view as "a bit of fun" and "something that feels good" as the potential to "create a parasite that starves the mother and gaurentees extreme stress for 9 months and depression for 18 years." plus you surely understand that there's the chance of other infections besides HIV, and while it's not so damaging to the male, for young women it can cause alot of internal damage which can lead to all sorts of complications. I'd suggest you read up on the subject, but given your current frame of mind I'd find it unlikely that you have the attention span.

Quote: "Now the real question is, if there were not games what would people spend their free time on?
Riots?
Parties?
Fights?
ahh yes Thinking up massive complicated pranks?"


Yes but at least it's only once every four ye... oh sorry I thought you where talking about the world cup there

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 22:13
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Quote: "There was a kid in the UK who beat someone around the head, and he boy actually said he did it because it looked cool in manhunt. "


Do you have a link from a credible news source on this please. There are hundreds of these stories, from the kid who killed himself when his everquest character on. These generally all tend to be urban myths or an "afterthought" in an attempt to avoid punishment.

I would like some more info please. Now in the US it comes up alot usually cuz some slime bag attorney decides to try to convince people that it was the fault of some video game and not whoever commited the crime.
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Kenjar
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 22:17 Edited at: 26th Jun 2006 22:22
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/3934277.stm

http://uk.gamespot.com/ps2/action/manhunt/news_6103718.html?sid=6103718

Game blamed for hammer murder
Stefan Pakeerah
Stefan was repeatedly battered and stabbed by his older friend
The parents of a boy who was murdered with a claw hammer by a friend have blamed a violent video game which the teenage killer was "obsessed" with.

Warren Leblanc, 17, repeatedly stabbed 14-year-old Stefan Pakeerah after luring him to a Leicester park to steal from him on 27 February.

He pleaded guilty to murder at Leicester Crown Court on Wednesday.

Stefan's mother described Leblanc, who confessed to police moments after the assault, as "inherently evil".

Video game 'obsession'

Stefan's mother, Giselle, a research nurse, had to leave court when the evidence in the case became too harrowing.

Following the hearing she said her son's killer had mimicked a game called Manhunt, developed by Edinburgh-based Rockstar North, in which the players score points for violent killings.

Warren Leblanc
Leblanc armed himself with a claw hammer and a knife
Manhunt was banned six months ago in New Zealand by censorship officials.

Mrs Pakeerah said: "I heard some of Warren's friends say that he was obsessed by this game.

"To quote from the website that promotes it, it calls it a psychological experience, not a game, and it encourages brutal killing.

"If he was obsessed by it, it could well be that the boundaries for him became quite hazy."

Mrs Pakeerah, 36, called for violent video games to be banned.

Covered in blood

She said: "I can't believe that this sort of material is allowed in a society where anarchy is not that far removed.

"It should not be available and it should not be available to young people."


grab from Manhunt website
I don't play these games but if they are influencing kids to go out and kill people then you don't want them on the shelves
Patrick Pakeerah, victim's father

Leblanc, of Braunstone Frith, Leicester, persuaded his victim to go to nearby Stoke Woods Park, known locally as The Dumps - to meet two girls.

The court heard how he armed himself with a knife and claw hammer to carry out the attack.

He confessed to the killing moments later when he was found covered in blood by two police officers.

Outside court Stefan's father, Patrick, said: "They were playing a game called Manhunt.

"The way Warren committed the murder is how the game is set out - killing people using weapons like hammers and knives.

"There is some connection between the game and what he has done."

Game ban

Echoing his former partner, the civil servant said: "I don't play these games but if they are influencing kids to go out and kill people then you don't want them on the shelves."

When police discovered Stefan, they found he had sustained horrific and fatal injuries.

Giselle Pakeerah
Giselle Pakeerah has called for a ban on violent video games

The boy had been hit so hard with the hammer he had suffered deep cuts to his head and neck. His head had been fractured in several places.

He had multiple stab wounds, with the knife being plunged so deep that it had caused serious injuries to his kidney and liver.

A spokesman for the Entertainment and Leisure Software Publishers' Association said: "We sympathise enormously with the family and parents of Stefan Pakeerah.

"However, we reject any suggestion or association between the tragic events and the sale of the video game Manhunt.

"The game in question is classified 18 by the British Board of Film Classification and therefore should not be in the possession of a juvenile.

"Simply being in someone's possession does not and should not lead to the conclusion that a game is responsible for these tragic events."

Judge Michael Stokes QC said Leblanc had carried out "a brutal, cold-blooded murder" and could expect a life sentence.

Sentencing was adjourned for reports.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 22:22
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Quote: "There was a kid in the UK who beat someone around the head, and he boy actually said he did it because it looked cool in manhunt."


And how many kids beat other kids over the head because they said it looked cool in the infinate amount of cop movies?


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Kenjar
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 22:26
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In cop movies, there is some balance, unless the cop in question is courrupt the hero of the story never does it, and you always have people the crime scenes looking distrubed by what they see. The killer is always the bad guy, and the hero has to stop him/ her. Manhunt however puts the player in control of a muderer and then allows a long list of inventive killing methods from plasic shopping bags, to knives, hammers, and guns. It rewards the player with points for butal kills, and how brutal the kill is, is controlled by how long you hold down the kill button for.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 22:28
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Don't see the difference. A little kid seeing a beating is a little kid seeing a beating, whether it's being inflicted by a cop, mommy or santa.


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Les Horribres
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 22:30 Edited at: 26th Jun 2006 22:37
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Quote: "Merranvo, thanks, couldn't ask for a better case in hand! Look what video games did to Merranvo!"


Uhh... I don't play video games.
I play SimAnt!

I crawl in mud bringing leaves to my queen... and eating spiders... not to mention moving little rocks around.

Thank you for using my quote... my I now pronounce you parasite and germ.

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Chris Franklin
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 22:34 Edited at: 26th Jun 2006 22:35
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Edit:Sorry didn't see there was 4 pages




Stunt man 2 http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=79827&b=8&p=0
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Kenjar
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 22:38
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Quote: "A little kid seeing a beating is a little kid seeing a beating, whether it's being inflicted by a cop, mommy or santa."


No you don't get it do you?

Oh the one hand you have a cop film where you have 2 sides. One side the hero team, or the "good guys" who are running around putting a stop to murders. On the other side you have the killer, who more often than not pays the price. He is portayed as a phycopath, and something is is NOT cool to be.

Then you have manhunt which also has two sides.

The first is a burtal killer, and the second is a sadistic film maker urging the burtal killer onwards and upwards to make his films. Where is the sense of balance in this? Where is the message that it's wrong to kill? It's not a story of "good vs evil" it's a story of evil pushing evil to greater and greater heights.

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Fallout
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 23:36
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This kid who hammered his friend on the noggin was mentally ill. Some would describe him as ticking bomb who would have eventually been triggered anyway. In this case it was that shockingly rubbish game Manhunt.

A psychopath is eventually gonna do someone in. The fact that Manhunt inspired this kid to beat his matey over the head with a hammer is almost irrelevant. As I remember the story, he lured his friend to a park on the premise they were gonna meet some girls, then as they hid in the bushes, he gave him a beasting with the hammer. The steps of planning, lying and luring his friend aren't parts of manhunt. He didn't reinact the game, but he certaintly took inspiration from it. But who's to say if he didn't have the game he wouldn't have taken the same inspiration from halloween and knived his matey to death? After all, he was a complete nutt job. You can't make any assumptions of guesses as to whats going on in his messy noodle sack of a skull.

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Black Mesa
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 23:56
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Haha I watched about this whole thing on the daily show, it was hilarious! I love senators thinking that they are "gamers" because they play Civ 3. Props to the moron who thinks that poor people are influenced by video games but not the rich. Heres an idea: If your dad is in prison and your brother deals drugs maybe you steal cars because YOUR DAD IS IN PRISON AND YOUR BROTHER DEALS DRUGS.
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Les Horribres
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 23:58
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Sadamic!

Well... I think the 'cops' have the wrong guy. QED, they are the bad guys.

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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 00:36
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I thought we already beat the freakin' Manhunt thing to death in a berzillion 92 page thread last year. It was generally concluded that both Rockstar and the families involved with murder are all a bunch of morons.


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Manticore Night
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 00:52
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Quote: "Sex leads to pregnacy"
Not oral sex einstein.

Quote: "One side the hero team, or the "good guys""
See THAT's the kind of thinking that makes peole do nutso things. Do you think that the columbine kids thought they were bing "bad guys". I think not. We should have some "good guys" doing bad things and some "bad guys" doing good things, because it doesn't give off that stupid "us and them" idea.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 01:50 Edited at: 27th Jun 2006 01:58
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Quote: "The steps of planning, lying and luring his friend aren't parts of manhunt."


Yes it is, all all stealth, and sneaking up behind people. All he did was bend the rules slightly to fit the situation.

Quote: "A psychopath is eventually gonna do someone in. The fact that Manhunt inspired this kid to beat his matey over the head with a hammer is almost irrelevant. As I remember the story, he lured his friend to a park on the premise they were gonna meet some girls, then as they hid in the bushes, he gave him a beasting with the hammer. The steps of planning, lying and luring his friend aren't parts of manhunt. He didn't reinact the game, but he certaintly took inspiration from it. But who's to say if he didn't have the game he wouldn't have taken the same inspiration from halloween and knived his matey to death? After all, he was a complete nutt job. You can't make any assumptions of guesses as to whats going on in his messy noodle sack of a skull."


you can only work within the availible data, this kids insperation was that game. Given how supseptable he was to suggestion, and his obsessive tendancy (and obsessive behaviour is one of the most common attributes for the mentally ill), it can also be argued that had he been exposed to endless episodes of "the care bears" he might now be running around trying to do nice things for people. That fact is this game cost someone their life, end of story. You can't work on the basis on conjecture and guess work you can only work with the facts in hand.

Quote: "It was generally concluded that both Rockstar and the families involved with murder are all a bunch of morons."


Rockstar are definately, I never play their games.

Quote: "Sex leads to pregnacy"
Not oral sex einstein.

Dude, you're sick yourself if you don't see anything wrong with these acts at such a young age. And frankly I doubt your ability to allow the situation to remain at just that. I had a mate, his name was Jason Benedict, he died last year due to aid's which he contracted at 19, he started all this crap earily in his life as well, he died at 25 years of age. He was the sort of person to get diagnosed with Chlamydia then go out the same evening and sleep with someone. He also infected two other women I know, one of them is managing the condition, and the other is seriously ill.

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Manticore Night
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 02:27
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Quote: "Dude, you're sick yourself if you don't see anything wrong with these acts at such a young age."
16 isn't that young, people that young have been having sex since the dawn of man.

Quote: "I had a mate, his name was Jason Benedict, he died last year due to aid's which he contracted at 19,"
19 is pretty old buddy. Your mate was already an adult and should have been whatching who he sleeps with.

[center]It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)

He's back! With 20% less intelligence!
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Jeku
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 02:36
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Dudes, cut the sex talk out or get banned. Period.


"I understand creative people. After all, I worked with towel designers." - Ray Kassar, former head of Atari
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Les Horribres
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 02:41
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Quote: " it can also be argued that had he been exposed to endless episodes of "the care bears" he might now be running around trying to do nice things for people."

No... he would have thought crap of everyone, you see the care bears decend to this planet because we are all messed up. They go here on their little 'missions' and hate every second of it. I mean, THEY aren't the ones who are messed up... it is US.

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Chenak
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 03:37
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Hey why not ban all movies, tv shows, music and books. The "inspiriation to kill" could have easily come from any of those, coupled with bad parenting and the shear stupidity of the killer of course.

I think music is far more influential than any computer game, a record can have some rapper talking about killing and taking drugs and not raise an eyebrow. A computer game has that element.. oh no can't have that.

Censorship is pointless, the age restrictions are enough. Maybe a test should be made to test the stupidity of an 18 year old, if they are so bloody stupid to listen to fictional things and reinact them then they are banned from anything entertaining until they go to a "special school" and pass the test again.

A person should have morals, should know the difference between right and wrong, if they have neither they should be in jail or a mental hospital, blaming it on entertainment is pointless because sooner or later they will lash out.
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Jeku
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 03:47
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The difference between a video game and a movie is pretty obvious in that you actively participate in a video game. Your argument is flawed, but I agree that censorship is pointless. Age restrictions that are actually enforced are what's needed.


"I understand creative people. After all, I worked with towel designers." - Ray Kassar, former head of Atari
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Chenak
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 04:05
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Movies can still influence as much as a game but it depends on your point of view, I assure you its not that flawed . If a person is in touch with the character in a movie there can still be the same kind of connection, and they may idolise and try to become the character.

Its the story and what the character is like, and what he does thats is the main influence. In a game sure there is choice and you take part, doesn't mean any other form on entertainment does not influence

Don't want to get too much into it cause it gets very psychological, and i hate psychology
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Bahamut
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 04:11
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The worst crime a sane person will ever do is theft. Everyone else has a conscience which stops us from killing other people (at least, without really good reason). If these people are mentally unstable, there are plenty of films and books out there with murder for inspiration. Heck, even Harry bloody Potter has said on more than one occasion that he wants to kill people! And that's a "childrens" book!

Menally ill people don't always know the difference between good and evil either. Take anorexia for example, a fairly mild mental illness. I'm pretty sure that people with the illness believe that their families have turned against them by giving them food. Now magnify that by 1000 and you have your average psycopath.

Battle Royal is the best example of a film that is unecessarily violent, yet that hasn't called a ban on all violent films. It is also shown on normal, bog-standard TV. Anyone can watch it (and you should-it's a good film).

GTA and Manhunt are rubbish games anyway, but I still believe parents are responsible. Parents should know if their children are acting weird, or if they aren't 18 yet. Parents should not be in a position to complain about the content if it clearly states "18" on the box.

The numbers of people affected are tiny too. About 1 or 2 cases a year probably. That's out of all the thosands of kids who own the games.

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 04:29 Edited at: 27th Jun 2006 04:30
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Quote: "even Harry bloody Potter has said on more than one occasion that he wants to kill people! "

that is because he is
Quote: "mentally unstable"

I mean come on... he lives in this fantasy land of his where he is a "wizard" clearly the final book will end in him waking up from a 8 year long coma. And the joke will be on all of you who so avidly followed the series.

Quote: "The difference between a video game and a movie is pretty obvious in that you actively participate in a video game. Your argument is flawed, "

You indirectly follow a set script in all but a few games you can't break the script and go off and do what you want (IE. Kill the good guys). But you are right in one sense... you are PREFORMING instead of observing yet seeing something does have a vast amount of influence in a person.

Lets say you give a kid a gun... they have never seen a gun and probably don't know how to use it. Might end up shooting themselves.
Now you show them some 'cool' movies where people shoot each other and give the kid a gun... he might 'reenact' the scenes and kill someone beside himself.

Or lets press to the subject of videogames... lets say you give a kid a 'professional wrestling game' and that they don't know what that is... the chairs tables and other things around him might just look like décor until he finds he can use them, or sees it.


The point of this... you need influence to bring about action... simply playing a video game does not mean you will experience all the evil that you can do in it. Similarly, just because you play an elder scrolls game does not mean you will murder everyone in the game for his or her goods. You might not even think of such a violent action until you see it or stumble upon it.

Action needs influence, and the fact that you are allowed action in a video game does not mean you will take it. You CAN beat many games by simply running through it, making it more devoted to stealth and concept, even if it is an FPS.

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Insanity Complex
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 05:03
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Quote: "Another guy, some Republican congressman (I really want to find out what his name is so I can write him and tell him what a doofus he is) said something literally to the effect of "rich kids in suburbia probably wouldn't play GTA and go steal cars, but some poor kid living in poverty might not be SMART enough to tell the difference between what's entertainment and what's reality." "


I must say...coming from a poor background, and having turned out pretty god damn smart, I honestly resent what he said. It has always been a personally opinion of mine that it's not where you're from that affects you the most, it's who you're from and who you're around as you grow up. It's a common misconception that where you're from determines so much about you as an individual. But as far as video game violence, etc goes...if you are a parent, and you can't get your kid to stop playing games you dont want them to play when they are in your house, put the kid up for adoption, at least until you learn how to parent. It is really a parents responsibility to decide how mature their child is, and if they are able to play video games that are marked with a higher age range than their age is at. I still want to have a sit down chat with that congressman though...


"Take me home, to my empty 'fridgerator"
-ICP, Take me home, about looking back after obtaining your dream.
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 08:32
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Quote: "you can only work within the availible data, this kids insperation was that game. "


More likely his EXCUSE was the game.

Quote: "I think music is far more influential than any computer game, a record can have some rapper talking about killing and taking drugs and not raise an eyebrow. "


Sorry, but What planet have you been living on? Not raise an eyebrow, people are all over music all the time, do you remember the "Copkiller" incident with Ice-T/Bodycount. Hell they said Elvis's rotating hips would be the end of youth and drive them to sex and insanity. People sat around spinning records backwards looking for hidden messages. Have you ever heard of a group called the PMRC? Judas Priest went to court over a kid who commited suicide. There were congressional hearings and they dragged bands in to defend themselves.

Quote: "Now you show them some 'cool' movies where people shoot each other and give the kid a gun... he might 'reenact' the scenes and kill someone beside himself."


True, but what is more likely, if the person has a grasp of right and wrong, seeing the damage inflicted by a weapon (and face it it is exageratted in movies) allows the viewer to see the consequences of shooting someone and they will be less likely to do it.

In a 2004 poll investigating violent crimes in the US, inmates who had commited such crimes had actually consumed far less media (movies, games, literature) then the average person.
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Fallout
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 12:33
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Quote: "That fact is this game cost someone their life, end of story. "


I'm sorry Kenjar, but if ever there was a moment in history where somebody uttered a sentence from their arse, that was it. You just can't make conclusive statements like that based on the limited facts you know about the boy, his family and the psychology of the mentally ill.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 13:45 Edited at: 27th Jun 2006 13:51
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Quote: "The difference between a video game and a movie is pretty obvious in that you actively participate in a video game. Your argument is flawed, but I agree that censorship is pointless. Age restrictions that are actually enforced are what's needed."


Agreed, I've yet to hear of, or see a store that checks ID when a game is purchased, there isn't the same sense of restriction that you get when hiring a movie or buying liqoure.

Quote: "Movies can still influence as much as a game but it depends on your point of view, I assure you its not that flawed . If a person is in touch with the character in a movie there can still be the same kind of connection, and they may idolise and try to become the character."


If the movie was about a sadistic film maker recording a killer going around and murdering people in lots of inventive ways then it's pretty much going to have an effect. But actually taking up the role yourself is something else entirely, and we know of at least one case where it was too much for a single person. There are better things to turn into entertainment than something as sick as that.

Quote: "The worst crime a sane person will ever do is theft."


If there is one thing history has prooved it's that so called sane people are quite caperable of murder. Professional army's train people to do it, very clever leaders have waged war killing thousands. All a sane man really needs is an excuse.

Quote: "Menally ill people don't always know the difference between good and evil either."


I don't know about you, but I've come across so called perfectly sane people who don't appear to know the difference either. Do to door sales people who would con an elderly person out of their savings, thus shortening their lives. Again, soilder's are quite caperable of killing, it's their job, politions have no problems ordering the bombing of foureign cities. The only difference between that and walking up to someone is a sense of detachment, and the view of other people as objects rather than people.

Quote: "GTA and Manhunt are rubbish games anyway, but I still believe parents are responsible. "


Out of interest is there a parent here on the forums who accept's total responsibility for it? It's very easy for non-parents to blame a life they most likely don't understand the pressures of.

Quote: "I must say...coming from a poor background, and having turned out pretty god damn smart, I honestly resent what he said."


I am sure people you have grown up with haven't been so lucky though. I come form a very run down area, there was alot of drugs and crime going on, I was just lucky enough to be so weird that none of them wanted to be friends with me. :-p

Quote: "I'm sorry Kenjar, but if ever there was a moment in history where somebody uttered a sentence from their arse, that was it. You just can't make conclusive statements like that based on the limited facts you know about the boy, his family and the psychology of the mentally ill."


I still disagree.

Your signature has been erased by a mod because it's larger than 600x120...
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 16:46
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I never thought I'd be saying this at all, but Kenjar, your opinions are "wrong". Seriously.


It's like a Megaton Cat radar, 24 hours a day.
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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 17:29 Edited at: 27th Jun 2006 17:33
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Computer games quite obviously have some influence of how people perceive violence, but you'd have to be pretty isolated and messed up in the first place to be pushed over the edge by a computer game. I wouldn't say that video games have that much more effect on people than movies do, and I very much doubt violent media on the whole actually plays a big part in encouraging real-life crime. Time and money would be far better spent educating people rather than wasting time yabbering about the effects 18-rated computer games have on the 5 year-olds we buy them for.

EDIT

And also, in the US do computer games not have sensible labelling? If so that's probably what is causing all these arguements. In the UK there isn't that much of a fuss about these things, game boxes are clearly labelled using the same ratings (bbfc) as all films do.

UK GTA San Andreas Box


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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 17:31
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Quote: "I've yet to hear of, or see a store that checks ID when a game is purchased, there isn't the same sense of restriction that you get when hiring a movie or buying liqoure."


Though generally I'd like to stay as far from this thread as possible, I'd like to comment on this. As an ex-employee for EB/Game, it was company policy to ask for ID for those who looked under 18 for 18-cert games. If you didn't - you'd get fired.

There are even people who check up on such policies - they send kids around to try to buy 18 cert games and try to catch out stupid/lazy salespeople. Many's the time I had to turn down sales of GTA and other 18-cert games to kids and tell them to go get their parents to buy it instead. Some would even come in with notes from parents saying they could have the game - tough luck, kid. It's more than my job was worth.

Certain months, there were magazines with 18 cert demos on the cover disk - so we couldn't sell the magazines to kids that month.

So, you may never have heard or seen it Kenjar - but I can assure you that it happens in shops. Or at least - it did in my shop.

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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 17:36
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Quote: "Though generally I'd like to stay as far from this thread as possible, I'd like to comment on this. As an ex-employee for EB/Game, it was company policy to ask for ID for those who looked under 18 for 18-cert games. If you didn't - you'd get fired."


I agree; looking quite young for my age, I've often been asked for ID in Game and various other shops when buying magazines or games. Again, I think it's an American problem, I don't see much publicity about this here in the UK.


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TDP Enterprises
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 17:38
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Quote: "I agree; looking quite young for my age, I've often been asked for ID in Game and various other shops when buying magazines or games. Again, I think it's an American problem, I don't see much publicity about this here in the UK."

I third it, theres only been one instance where ive been able to purchase an M rated game without them having me get my mother, and it was only because i ahd a friend with me who is about 6' 7" 280lbs and has a beard, yet hes only a day older than me.

Snow Wars is making its return, check out the Game Design Theory board for more info...
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Chenak
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 17:55
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Quote: "Sorry, but What planet have you been living on? Not raise an eyebrow, people are all over music all the time, do you remember the "Copkiller" incident with Ice-T/Bodycount. Hell they said Elvis's rotating hips would be the end of youth and drive them to sex and insanity. People sat around spinning records backwards looking for hidden messages. Have you ever heard of a group called the PMRC? Judas Priest went to court over a kid who commited suicide. There were congressional hearings and they dragged bands in to defend themselves."


I live in england, there has been barely anything about people complaining about offensive music recently, but you hear about mothers against violent computer games quite a lot. I suppose I should have said recently, because a few years ago yes there were a lot of arguements about music. They usually don't cover that kind of interesting stuff on the news, now it's just terrorism, blair & bush, more terrorism, and trains... meh.

Quote: "Out of interest is there a parent here on the forums who accept's total responsibility for it? It's very easy for non-parents to blame a life they most likely don't understand the pressures of."


Right whatever... all the parents I know agree its bad parenting or mental conditions of the offender thats to blame. All of their kids play video games of various types and they are not psychopathic idiots. Most of them have gone to uni now, one of them i know is a doctor now and another has just started teaching.
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Black Mesa
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 18:40
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Personally, I think that gaming has no more effect on the mind then movies do. Granted I dont think that very young children should watch violent movies or play violent games but thats because they havent learned right from wrong yet. After like 12 or 13 though I dont think it will have much of an effect. In fact I think games would have less of an impact because no one is forcing you to do anything. If you watch a movie where the bad guy blows away the good guy, the same thing happens everytime. However if someone plays manhunt and just wanders around, there is no psycho killer element, just some dude wandering around.

It also needs to be brought up that according to FBI statistics, this is the LEAST violent generation ever. There is the lowest serious crime rate in years, clearly if games are such a big impactt we would have a surge in murders by kids around 18, yet it has dropped, that tells you something. I watched tons of violent movies when I was younger but I never felt the need to re inact gunfights in my school, that would be the action of a crazy person.

For the record, rockstar games kick ass.
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Manticore Night
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 19:11
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Quote: "There are better things to turn into entertainment than something as sick as that."
But it's still JUST entertainment.

[center]It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)

He's back! With 20% less intelligence!
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 19:23
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Quote: "Out of interest is there a parent here on the forums who accept's total responsibility for it? It's very easy for non-parents to blame a life they most likely don't understand the pressures of."


Yes, I do. It is my job as a parent (4 kids) to teach them right from wrong, to watch the shows they are watching so I can answer questions and make sure they are appropriate, to listen to music with them, and in general to try to put things into context. Do I have all the answers for them, heck no, but it is my job as a parent to stay informed and try to guide them correctly.

I do not expect the school system, government, television, or video games to raise my children. I turned down a very good job because it would limit my family time and I am raising children, not a bank account, and "raising" them does not mean paying their bills, it means helping them become adults and individuals.
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