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Geek Culture / Gliese 581c: "Earth-like planet" - Possible existance of ET

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 25th Apr 2007 19:26
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A new planet has been discovered only 20 light years away from Earth, called Gliese 581c. It apparently seems to have very similar properties to Earth. It's double it's size, has a surface temperature of between 0C and 40C, and can support water. They don't really know much about it, but it's an interesting find.

It has a year of 13 Earth days because it is so close to the sun, Gliese 581, which is about a third of the size of our sun, and about 50 times cooler. They say from the surface of the planet at day time, the sun looks 50 times bigger than how we see it, and you can faintly see 1 of the other 2 Neptune sized planets (and what makes it cooler is that it has a ring )

It is very possible that it has even simple life.

They say, that just as soon as telescopes powerful enough to see planets like that, they have already found planets similar to Earth, so close to us aswell (one of the closest in the galaxy at only 20 lightyears). This proves that there are many, many Earth-like planets. This puts the chances of life in other places in the universe right up. If we are lucky, it will hopefully be only between 20 and 40 years before we say Hi for the first time to ET

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Alquerian
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Posted: 25th Apr 2007 19:32
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Very interesting stuff there Zoto. I really enjoy astronomy and space exploration has always been an interest of mine.

I know they were working on a few different types of 'deep space' engines such as the xeon/ion engine and the solar sail. I wonder why they haven't done work with fision/fusion engines for such travel?

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 25th Apr 2007 20:05
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Quote: "I wonder why they haven't done work with fision/fusion engines for such travel?"


I'm sure it's because of the risk of mistakes / nuclear waste etc etc.

Very interesting though Zoto, do you have any links to where you found this info?

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Alquerian
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Posted: 25th Apr 2007 20:10
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I found it interesting and I found this article when I googled it:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18293978/?GT1=9246

I am kind of bummed that I wasn't alive during the 'space race', that would have been such an exciting time to live in. However, the race to another solar system isn't something we will see in our lifetimes. It is as if, once man landed on the moon, they gave up; lost interest.

It is kind of disheartening.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 25th Apr 2007 20:10
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Read it in the Daily Mail, but this explains it all too if you want: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18293978/?GT1=9246

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Alquerian
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Posted: 25th Apr 2007 20:16
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haha good call Zoto, same URL

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Tom J
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Posted: 25th Apr 2007 20:41
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Very interesting news I Wonder when we'll finally come into contact with ET life.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 25th Apr 2007 21:16
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I read this on slashdot yesterday. The reason the sun is so much cooler is because its a red dwarf.


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 25th Apr 2007 21:20
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Well, that can be a good thing or a bad thing. It's likely to die soon, but, there's been plenty of time for evolution on the planet, so if there are any animals, they wont be small.

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Moondog
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Posted: 25th Apr 2007 21:29 Edited at: 2nd May 2007 15:51
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so this would be considered a 'super-earth'...because of the high amounts of UV radiation the sun gives off, it strips the planet of it's gaseous envelope...

any life that forms on such a world would also develop much differently then life on earth. the life would have to have a superior immune system then we would ever have, and would see on a different light scale then us. this is crazy just thinking about what type of life would form on such a world.

also we could never set foot on a planet like that without proper suits that protect us from such radiation...talk about instant cancer, lol

Zotoaster:
red dwarf stars use hydrogen fusion, and because of there size take a much longer time to consume their fuel, meaning they'll sustain themselves for over 100 trillion years. Our sun is only about 4.57billion years old, and will only last another 4-5 billion years...so if anything, we found where those flying saucers came from, lol!

MOONDOG


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 25th Apr 2007 23:02
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Quote: "superior immune system"

Shouldn't that be a superior suntan?


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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BiggAdd
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 00:00
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Quote: "Shouldn't that be a superior suntan?"


Is that how you order your steaks very well done?

That is quite interesting. Question is..... if there is life on that planet, who found each other first?

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 00:39
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Quote: "That is quite interesting. Question is..... if there is life on that planet, who found each other first?
"


That made my mind chuckle.

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Moondog
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 01:07
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NeX: UV radiation doesn't effect the skin directly, like if you were to apply heat to your skin and have it burned. UV radiation is essential for the body to produce Vitamin D, and to cure some diseases. It's when you are exposed to too much radiation that it starts to effect the actual cells, blood vessels in the skin by degenerating them, causing accelerated aging. Now, your skin becomes tan because it's actually trying to protect itself from the UV radiation by releasing a brown pigment into the skin, trying to block it.

So, we can determen that any species that evolves from the planet has a special skin the reflects UV radiation. This would give the skin the appearance of being very reflective and can also lead to very colorful skin, almost like fish scales.

BUT!! This means life couldn't start on this planet, because high amounts of UV radiation, meaning high amount of UV protons hitting the planet, will directly effect DNA strands, causing the Thymine bonds to break, and kill any potential organism. So, for organisms to start, they would have to begin deep within body's of water, where this would be filtered out enough for life to begin. BUt since this planet never developed an ozone layer to protect itself from UV radiation like earth, we can conclude that any advanced organism has developed the means to directly control radiation absorption through their body's, potentaly using it, maybe, as a energy source. USing UV protons could help in the breakdown of certain particles to be used in the body, so instead of the organism eating like we humans, they take in an amount of UV radiation, filter out the protons, and use it to break down necessary energy for the body, just like our stomachs break down food for use for our body's.

So, if life developed this way, we can also conclude that their visual input is based off of UV wave length. So they see much more detail then the human eye, but in a more high contrast colors.

This could also effect communication. They could communicate by the use of sending off short bursts, or sequences of radiated protons, and they then filter it and interpret it into coherent language. THough we can't assume their language would be like ours, propers words and phrases. It would be more organic like, and based on feeling. Like we would say, "I feel really good now", but they would transmit a feeling and not a phrase. So the person being told would know how he felt by how he was exerting UV radiation.

LOL, this is all speculation..anyway, i've droned on enough

MOONDOG


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 01:12
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Quote: "BUt since this planet never developed an ozone layer to protect itself from UV radiation like earth"


How do you know?

Quote: "they would have to begin deep within body's of water"


There are lots of places. I caves, under water, etc.

What about plants?

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Moondog
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 01:27 Edited at: 26th Apr 2007 02:08
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the planet is stripped of it's gaseous envelope, because of the amount of UV radiation being emitted from the red dwarf star. gaseous envelope is the atmosphere and air of a planet, and being stripped of it, well, means no atmosphere....this is a proven fact, many planets have been discovered with the same setup, red dwarf star with a planet larger then earth in a low orbit.

so life would have to start underwater as well ....any organism to evolve to be able to travel out of water, would have to develop a new way of producing energy, hence, the theory of taking in UV radiation to break down molecules. since they can't take in air, like all life on earth, to help in making energy

so plant life would have to find another way of producing energy. since there limited to radiation, light, and the composition of the water...most life will probably be water based, so any surface exposure would eventually kill it, unless evolved otherwise, like i stated before.

you can't use life on earth as an example of how life evolved here, because all land based life is dependent on air and heat. And water life is based on the same principles, because you find oxygen in the air, so you find it in the water. there are other forms of liquid, who's to say the liquid on this planet is actually water(H2O)?

It'll be sometime before we could answer any of these questions. Anyway, since this planet has had a longer time of development then earth, we can assume that there is intelligent life on the planet, or was intelligent life. who's to say it's inhabited anymore?

hmmm

MOONDOG

edit:
come to think about it, if UV light and radiation is essential to life on this planet, and they are able to absorb and admit it to sustain them selfs, then that would mean they would be invisible to humans, when exposed to a large amount, like the planet...so in a sense, we could never see them, or even their structures, if any advance civilization exists, because they would build structures that suit their way of life. SO a telescope that can interprete UV light, would be the best way to find life on this world, whether there is any or not


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The dude guy
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 05:06
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Quote: "come to think about it, if UV light and radiation is essential to life on this planet, and they are able to absorb and admit it to sustain them selfs, then that would mean they would be invisible to humans, when exposed to a large amount, like the planet...so in a sense, we could never see them, or even their structures, if any advance civilization exists, because they would build structures that suit their way of life. SO a telescope that can interprete UV light, would be the best way to find life on this world, whether there is any or not"

So you're saying there might be life on planets that we know about, we just can't see them for reasons such as this?

I'm lost, sorry
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Moondog
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 05:28 Edited at: 26th Apr 2007 05:34
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thats exactly what i'm saying...there being subject to a different light wave length from their sun, so we would be unable to see any life on this planet because it would reflect this light, because the body reacts with the light to sustain itself...so my theory is, lol

would make a base for a cloaking device...hmm, if you had a material that absorbed all light except it reflected pure UV light...have to get my old physics book out and study this a little more

MOONDOG


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Venge
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 05:56
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SOMEone's thought about this way too much...

Blender!
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Moondog
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 06:00
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SO i read a couple articles, and not one has talked about the radiation output of the sun, and the effect it would have on the planet and any atmosphere...they don't even know if it has an atmosphere...they are speculating a lot right now. There not sure it has water either, they just believe it's promising.

Another thing that bothered me is the way they discovered it. They discovered the planet by the light emitted from the dwarf star reflecting off the surface of the planet...uh.... they are useing HARPS, and it uses a type of echelle spectrograph...which can handles a wide light wave length range...but only %50 of radiation was visible...which could prove to be a problem

so after more research i found out that Gliese 581(Gliese 581c's sun), is only about .2 billion years younger then our Sol(sun)...so theres a very good chance of life, just not in any earth form

if they can build a telescope that works directly with the Gliese 581 light wave length, they'll defenatly be able to see what's on that planet ...but if we ever landed there, we'd need special visors that could pick up UV light in order to see the locals, lol

MOONDOG


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The dude guy
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 06:01
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Quote: "SOMEone's thought about this way too much..."


SOME people are more interested in some things than others
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Mr Tank
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 06:30
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Wow! It's an exciting time for astronomy. This planet is pretty big, in orbit around a pretty small star, and very close. All these things make it easier to spot. I think if an Earth (Earth mass, orbital distance) was in orbit around a sunlike sun at the same distance or even closer, we don't currently have the resolution to pick it up- ie it can't be ruled out. Of the hundreds of stars within the 20ly range, i'd bet there are loads more planets, which we will see more and more of as they build bigger and better telescopes and get more cunning with using them.
Unless they can work out how to go faster than light, make us immortal or send us in person to these planets (not going to happen), we won't be seeing them close up, but we might be able to resolve continents with a super telescope by the time i'm dead. Nice.

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Moondog
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 07:01
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assuming the princibles of time follow the same rules at near light speeds...? interesting

MOONDOG


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Steve J
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 07:11
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We have accelerated Particles at near light speeds, and have seen no improper actions. But that is just a small amount of mass with our observational tools.

pleading and needing and bleeding and breeding and feeding exceeding..where is everybody? trying and lying defying denying crying and dying..where is everybody?
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Benjamin
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 07:26
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Fascinating stuff.

Quote: "red dwarf star with a planet larger then earth in a low orbit. "

Earth is in a low orbit? Sorry, I had to point out that you keep writing "then" instead of "than".

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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Slayer Simon
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 08:57
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You guys are saying life would have a hard time starting because of the UV radiation tearing up the DNA strands. You guys are going deep, but not nearly deep enough.

What if they didn't have DNA strands. What if they didn't even have standard cells that use osmosis to absorb nutrients? what if they didn't even need nutrients? What if their body thrived on UV radiation (like a solar panel)? The thing about this is that we can't make common assumptions that they would have any resemblance to cell-based life as we know it. It might be so radically different and indescribable that we couldn't even call it "life". We might have to think of a name like "fluctuating compound variance", or "superfluous anti-mutative degeneration".

In fact, while I'm at it, what if it doesn't mean a thing. My personal theory is that the universe is simply a sea of subatomic particles that stick together in ways that build up into atoms, atoms that build up into molecules, molecules that build up into compounds, which build up into what we know today. At the Sub-Atomic level, time and speed are irrelevant because there is nothing there to slow a particle down. Even space is filled with various protons and various other particles which interact and form "dark matter". The space at the sub-Atomic level is so empty, that it is empty to the max. So empty that to advance to the next level of emptiness would be impossible.
What this means is that particles can go as fast as they want to. They can instantly move to another place within the empty void in literally no time at all. This makes time and speed irrelevant, they just don't exist down there. Once in a while, one particle may collide with another particle. This would seem to be an amazingly rare occurrence given the vast emptiness of everything. However, since time and speed have no meaning, it is technically happening all the time, everywhere at once. This slows the particles down for a tiny tiny tiny amount of time (yes I said it). This adds up, and at the atomic level (this is one level up from sub-atomic). Time begins to have a small amount of meaning. Eventually, you can see how this adds up to how we see time now. What this means is that when the world's greatest physicists look at a computer screen and see an electron shoot across a room in nanoseconds and say, "gee, that was fast", it's actually us that is incredibly slow. And the electron wasn't even going fast compared to other things I've discussed!

This brings us back to your discussion on life. Now with the sufficient amount of theoretical data to work with, you will understand me when I say that time only has relevance to the organic body perceiving it. We perceive time at the rate we do now right? (obviously redundant question) What if this now form of life experienced time at a greater rate than us, as if 1000 years would seem like one second to it, or vice-versa, simply because that is what its environment calls for. Its brain would have evolved that way to suit the environment. Maybe they won't even perceive time at all.There is even hypothetical evidence that our perception of time varies. Ex: You've been playing computer games all day and you notice how time has really "flown" by. Is this because your brain has recorded less memory when your having fun, making it seem like a shorter amount of time? Or is it because you were in a friendly environment, and it wasn't necessary for you to remain constantly alert, and so your perception of time dwindled (AKA time went faster) until your environment called for a more focused attention to maintain optimal survival capabilities (don't get me started on that). Is this why "time flies when your having fun" (friendly environment)? Is this why time flies when your sleeping? (notice that sleeping seems to take longer while dreaming, this is because your brain is more active which causes time to slow down).

An accurate representation of this theory is simple. Look at your watch. Watch the seconds tick by. Did those seconds take the exact same amount of time as when you looked at your watch yesterday? Now there's something to wrap your brain around.
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 09:29
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Quote: "I am kind of bummed that I wasn't alive during the 'space race', that would have been such an exciting time to live in."


Some race! Almost 40 years later and still no one else has crossed the finish line.

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Agent Dink
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Well, you know the old saying, Haste makes waste.

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Morcilla
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 11:50
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Quote: "the life would have to have a superior immune system then we would ever have"


This recalls me about Superman, didn't he come from a red sun system?
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MushroomHead
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 15:20
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Quote: "Very interesting news I Wonder when we'll finally come into contact with ET life."




Anybody home?
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Moondog
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 15:32
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Slayer: ah, but i did mention that life would have to adapt to the amount of radiation that comes from the red sun, even using it in it's daily life to sustain itself. also, i was making assumptions based on the fact that they evolved similar to what we know of evolution. like i said, it's all a theory . as for your notion of time, i think of it the same way, and agree with your ideas. I've always felt time is something man-made in order to bring meaning to our lives. one thing i felt is humans will never further evolve from this state because we are too afraid of change, and will reject any changes...not like the x gene and mutants, but changes in the way we go about our lives, we rely so much on outside influences to 'improve' our selfs and environment, that we will never be able to change because we are so used to it. time is one of those factors, we feel that we need a anchor to help us precieve our environment, to explain the details of the universe, when actually it's a wall that blinds us from the truth..

lol, anyway

MOONDOG


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game master 07
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Hey just herd about this yesterday. I saw it on CNN. To me this planet
sounds an awful lot like Krypton from Superman! Krypton was also a planet a lot bigger than earth and was also around a red dwarf star. Mabey there are real life supermen on it! LOL.

gm07
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Roxas
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 18:36
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Lol first they find this new material and now they found this planet IS THERE SUPREMANS!?



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game master 07
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 18:48
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Oh yeah forgot about that to. They also found real life Kryptonite!

gm07
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Tom J
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 19:00
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Shame they didn't decide to call it Kryptonite.

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game master 07
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 19:10 Edited at: 26th Apr 2007 19:12
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Maby the creator of superman was infact from that planet and based superman on himself and his real life home planet! I also have the link were there is video on both the planet and the mineral. Here is the link http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/

gm07
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 19:26
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Even if life doesn't exist on this planet, it is very possible it exist elsewhere.

With a planet so similar to ours and so close, there must be lots of planets like this, unless this is just a very, very strange coincidence.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 20:01
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Quote: "I Wonder when we'll finally come into contact with ET life"

Honestly, I highly doubt the intergalactic high senate of Zorphblars are interested in infesting the rest of the universe with the human virus. If alien life forms ever visit earth, I think it's pretty safe to say we're the last species on their list of beings to communicate with.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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Steve J
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 21:00
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Maybe not Matt, if you think that way you dont realize how different life could be. A collective would view democratic societies and failed communist states with interest, as it shows individualism. An extremely individualistic society would view us with interest as well, as we are very balanced in this aspect. Maybe we have discovered things with odd orders (Maybe they discovered Fusion, but have no idea about Fission), ect. Its many perspectives on random ability of the universe to make anything (If space is indeed infinite, that makes infinite possibilities for anything)

pleading and needing and bleeding and breeding and feeding exceeding..where is everybody? trying and lying defying denying crying and dying..where is everybody?
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 21:45
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I read that it was 5 billion light years away...then again my source was the UK's #1 most unreliable newspaper (The Mirror) Sounds pretty cool.

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 22:14
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5 billion Where do they bloody get their information from lol.

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Seppuku Arts
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Well, it is the Mirror, I don't know why I was reading it, but hey, it was on the table and well it's not as if I was going to walk over and grab the Guardian or Independant...I'm lazy.

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
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Tom J
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 23:32
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Quote: "5 billion Where do they bloody get their information from lol."


They probably made it up on the spot

Quote: "Honestly, I highly doubt the intergalactic high senate of Zorphblars are interested in infesting the rest of the universe with the human virus. If alien life forms ever visit earth, I think it's pretty safe to say we're the last species on their list of beings to communicate with."


Who knows? If there is advanced life on this planet and they are anything like us (psychologically) then they'd probably be as thrilled about meeting aliens as we are.

An intersting situation would be if we discovered aliens on another planet that were at an earlier era than us. After all, we always think of extraterrestrials as more advanced than us but in reality who said that all ET's are super advanced?

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Deathead
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Posted: 26th Apr 2007 23:54
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GET OUT OF MY HOME ON Gliese 581c! Very Interesting but how can a telescope go 25 lightyears away!

JOIN NOW!Or be square!
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hessiess
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Posted: 27th Apr 2007 00:24
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Quote: "(one of the closest in the galaxy at only 20 lightyears)"


so what's been seen of the planet is 20 years old.
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Agent Dink
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Posted: 27th Apr 2007 00:54
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Quote: "
so what's been seen of the planet is 20 years old."


The creepiest part is that the planet may not even be there anymore. It could have blown up 10 years ago and we won't even know for another 10 years.

I have no signature...
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Seppuku Arts
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Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 27th Apr 2007 00:56
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Quote: "They probably made it up on the spot"


Hehe, sounds about right, well we know that's true about The Sun, dunno about the Mirror.

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
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game master 07
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Posted: 27th Apr 2007 01:48 Edited at: 27th Apr 2007 01:52
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sorry didnt realise this post went to another page! I thought my posts didnt get posted! Sorry about the double post!

gm07
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game master 07
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Posted: 27th Apr 2007 01:50 Edited at: 27th Apr 2007 01:55
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It was 20 lightyears away not 5 billion! I am not sure how many miles that is maby it was 5 billion miles not 5 billion lightyears away!

gm07
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Venge
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Posted: 27th Apr 2007 01:55
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I think it was several trillion miles away. That was on the news today, that it would take over 500,000 years to get there with today's fastest rockets.

Blender!
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