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Geek Culture / The line has been crossed

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Krilik
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Location: Arizona, USA
Posted: 6th Jun 2007 03:16 Edited at: 6th Jun 2007 03:17
Quote: "Yes that's it they just don't care. The guy who works in the bar(willingly) should have just held out longer for a better job while living off fresh air. All those people who want to go out for a drink with friends to a bar(willingly) should have just stayed at home instead. And don't get me started on those who socialise with smokers(willingly), didn't they know that the first you should ask a person is whether or not they smoke and then base your decision on whether or not to socialise with them on that one fact alone. You're right they just don't care about their own health."


Well obviously you know people who decide to be around second hand smoke well enough to speak for them.

Your counter argument was all a matter of choice. Its like you don't want to bother trying, just make it so you're satisfied. All of the sarcastic latter choices you presented were actually quite valid, and considering the risk you present it should be obvious that people who don't want to be around second-hand smoke won't.

You let me know when a smoker forces you to be around them.

Quote: "Cars are useful. They move people around and make the economy work well. Cigarettes, when used, do little else than give the user a high whilst doing them damage. THAT is how it is justified."


They are also supposedly harmful to the planet, and in larger numbers.
Thraxas
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Location: The Avenging Axe, Turai
Posted: 6th Jun 2007 04:23 Edited at: 6th Jun 2007 04:32
@Fallout

Quote: "That's it Thraxas, ignore all the rest of the intelligent discussion, such as the points made by VR2 and just find the smallest hole in someone elses argument to pick at. "


Sorry I must have missed the intelligent part of the debate, please point it out to me. What I personally see are people saying that non-smokers are all whiners. That passive smoking shouldn't be brought up in a discussion about smoking because all the government statistics are skewed. I see people saying that if non-smokers don't like it they shouldn't go out to a pub. Well please before this ban what was the alternative? Non-smoking sections? Please... I can be in a non-smoking section of a restaurant not 2 foot away from someone in the smoking section. I still get their second hand smoke. While I'm not saying it will kill me it DOES stop me enjoying my meal. The smoke doesn't know it can't go in a non-smoking section!

Did you read all of my posts? It would seem not. I USED TO SMOKE... I CAN SEE BOTH SIDES OF THE ARGUMENT TOO... It seems to me that the smokers see this an infringement of their right to smoke wherever they please. ITT smokers have said that they should be able to smoke where they want, when they want. They are complaining... Yet when a non-smoker complains that they would like to go out and not passively smoke they are told to stop complaining that passive smoking isn't as harmful as they believe and if they don't like it stay home.

You say I took the smallest hole in your argument to pick at, yet YOU took one small quote from one of my posts and then tell me that I have made a sweeping random and unjust statement. I didn't just make a post with that statement! The fact that you had to say it was the sort of comment a menstruating woman would make just smacks of ignorance on your part.


Quote: "If this was a discussion about the positives of smoking, I could easily list a whole load of em. You gotta be a little immature, or foolish, or rebellious to start, but once you've started, there are lots of minor unseen benefits. Most of them you'll only become aware of once you've actually smoked. To a non-smoker, only the negatives are obvious."


As a person who used to smoke, it would seem I was completely oblivious to the positives of smoking. Please list them here as I am unaware of even one.

@Krilik

Quote: "Well obviously you know people who decide to be around second hand smoke well enough to speak for them.

Your counter argument was all a matter of choice. Its like you don't want to bother trying, just make it so you're satisfied. All of the sarcastic latter choices you presented were actually quite valid, and considering the risk you present it should be obvious that people who don't want to be around second-hand smoke won't.

You let me know when a smoker forces you to be around them."


It would seem you missed my point entirely. Your post was so flippant. You basically said that people had a choice to not be around smokers and that they put their health at risk by doing so, so tough luck if you die from passive smoking. Do you know everyone's situation, is it so EASY to avoid smokers? I'll let you know when a smoker forces me to be around them, every time I go to a restaurant to eat a meal and they come in and light up a cigarette. They are forcing me to breathe in their smoke. Should I not go out to eat? Should I pack up and leave when they light up so as not to passively smoke? By your reckoning I have no right to go out and enjoy myself, and if I do want to go out I have made a choice that I am happy to passively smoke. You say I don't want to bother trying and just want to satisfy myself, that's not the case... your post said that people willingly subjugate themselves to passive smoke and so don't care about the health risks. My point was that in order for people to ACTIVELY avoid smokers they should just stay at home as that is the ONLY viable option considering smoking is everywhere.

Quote: "you stub your fag out and get an £80 fine."
Well technically all littering is a fineable offence. The £80 is extremely harsh because the government has not provided sufficient bins, if any, for the butts to be placed in. ( I know bin isn't the right word but you get the point)
alex 1337
User Banned
Posted: 6th Jun 2007 06:01
I totally agree.

Fallout
22
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Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 6th Jun 2007 11:12 Edited at: 6th Jun 2007 11:14
@Thraxas

Yeah, apologese. I was irritated a little by previous posts, and you stood in the line of fire. The only thing I disliked about your statement was the generalisation of smokers. I, for one, always avoided smoking when I was with company that didn't like the smell, and would never smoke in a restaurant unless I was on a table with a load of people already puffin' away. In my own home, I would always smoke outside too.

I know quite a lot of people with the same mentality. There are a lot of considerate smokers who consider non-smokers, so it's a bit annoying when people generalise smokers. Every smoker and every non-smoker are individuals, and in the same way that a lot of non-smokers will put up with smoke, a lot of smokers will make an effort to not subject non-smokers to it.

As for the positives of smoking, as I said, they're quite minor, but I'll list a few I can remember:

-Traffic jams - Getting stuck in one on the way home from working would never bother me. I'd light up a smoke and relax. Now it's much more boring.

-After a meal - It's like another desert. Really satisfying to have a smoke after a meal. Just tops it all of perfectly.

-General break - If you just need to get out of somewhere for a few minutes, rather than just standing outside like a plumb, you can have a cigarette. It also means you're physically preoccupied to a degree, which is good for thinking. I've done my best thinking for game dev, music, problem solving etc. while having a cigarette.

-There is some evidence it helps prevent alzymers disease, although clearly the negative health benefits outweigh this positive.

-Extremely social - I've met more random friends through hanging around outside at work with smokers than I have anywhere else. It's an instant commonality, and because you're both standing there doing nothing, you start up a chat, when otherwise you'd walk right by each other. This is the best benefit, imo. In fact, I met one of my ex-girlfriends because we both smoked, otherwise I wouldn't have even spoken to her.

-Reduces your risk of colds and infections. There is some evidence for this, and personally I feel it's seems true. It apparently increases the saliva flow from your lungs as they try and kick out the tar, which reduces infection. It seemed to be accurate to me. Seemed to have less colds while smoking.

-Obviously the taste and slight stimulation you get from it, if you like that sort of thing.

There are probably a few more, but that's all I've got right now. Small, but tangible benefits I personally miss.


Dazzag
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Location: Cyprus
Posted: 6th Jun 2007 12:04
Fallout, judging by your location and knowing how you feel about cars then I take it you have been to the Bracknell tyre place? ie. cheapest tyres almost anywhere in the UK not off the back of a lorry (I've looked it up). That place makes you feel like you should be wearing a dress if you aren't smoking General feeling around mechanics at the best of times though...

Quote: "I've met more random friends through hanging around outside at work with smokers"
Yep, where I used to work it was pretty obvious that the structure was based totally on who went on smoking breaks and down the pub. Not saying it's right, just how it used to be. You used to get people not knowing about whole areas of future plans for the company because they weren't there. Of course that is a lot less these days (was talking 1995) with smokers on the decline. Pretty sure it holds true still with a lot of places and drinking down the pub. Depends on the bosses really.

Heh, although overall all of this is totally beaten by having bosses with funny handshakes and antler hats in the cupboard. Massively. Used to have a Y2K rollout manager that just played Lemmings all day (we worked our a***s off for Y2K). How did he keep his job when we were so scrutised?....

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Oraculaca
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Joined: 6th Jan 2003
Location: Scotland
Posted: 6th Jun 2007 12:16 Edited at: 6th Jun 2007 12:17
Quote: "There is some evidence it helps prevent alzymers disease, although clearly the negative health benefits outweigh this positive.
"


I realise people will probably dig the old government 'twists the facts to suit its agenda' trick out of the bag but....

from the alzheimers society:
Quote: "
Does smoking cause dementia?
There is growing evidence that smoking increases dementia risk. For a time, it was thought that nicotine might actually be protective (it’s chemically very similar to acetylcholine, levels of which are reduced in the brain in Alzheimer’s disease and other dementias) but this is no longer thought likely.

What does research tell us?
Smoking could raise the risk of dementia by increasing the production of free radicals (potentially harmful by-products of bodily activity) and by damaging blood vessels. "



oh dear..
http://healthgate.partners.org/browsing/browseContent.asp
Quote: "Smoking greatly increases the frequency of colds in adults, and smokers are at higher risk for complications from colds and the flu."


http://www.patient.co.uk/showdoc/23068824/
Quote: "
Other benefits of stopping smoking include the following:

* Breathing improves.
* Chest infections and colds become less frequent.
* Reduction in 'smoker's cough'.
* The smell of stale tobacco goes from your breath, clothes, hair, and face.
* Foods and drinks taste and smell much better.
* Finances improve. You will save well over £1000 per year if you smoked 20 a day.
* You are likely to feel good about yourself. "


Oraculaca
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Posted: 6th Jun 2007 12:22 Edited at: 6th Jun 2007 12:27
from 1998
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/115829.stm

Quote: "Smokers are more than twice as likely to develop Alzheimer's Disease as people who have never smoked, according to new research.

The study - the largest ever of its kind and the first major research to look at people before they develop Alzheimer's - followed 6,870 men and women aged 55 and over.

None of the people had Alzheimer's, the most common form of dementia, before the study by the Erasmus Medical School in Rotterdam began.

Dementia

Over a two-year period, any who developed signs of dementia were assessed and, where possible, given a brain scan.

A total of 146 people developed dementia during the course of the study, with 105 being diagnosed as having Alzheimer's.

People who smoked were found to be 2.3 times more likely to develop Alzheimer's than those who had never smoked.

They were also more likely to get Alzheimer's at a younger age. "



in 1998 it was thought that if you have a certain gene that smoking actually helped however come 2000 a much larger survey took place which assertained the following:

Quote: ""The public health message is clear: at the population level there is no protective effect of smoking in dementia," she concludes."


Fallout
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Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 6th Jun 2007 12:58 Edited at: 6th Jun 2007 13:00
I see where you're coming from. Unfortunately, those surveys are generally pretty flawed (although they still obviously do have some factual content to them). They often ignore other factors such as smokers may have a less healthy diet, for example, which contributes (that may or may not be true, but it's often not considered). It also needs to consider how much you smoke, rather than just labeling people smokers or non-smokers.

All I'm saying is, I had a good chat with my doc once, and he said smoking fires the synapses, improving links between brain cells and helping to prevent brain related illnesses. However, heavy smoking can lead to mild strokes etc which have the opposite effect and destroy the brain. Basically, it's a big inclusively pile of random facts and figures, imo.

As for colds, some say smokers suffer less (such as my doc) and then you've dug out some figures that suggest the opposite. If there's one thing we've determined from this thread, just cos you can find one organisation on the internet that's published some figures, definitely doesn't mean they're right. I could well be wrong too. All I know is, personally, when I got a cough as a smoker, it was much worse, but I very rarely got coughs and colds. As a non-smoker, they seem to be much more frequent.


Oraculaca
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Posted: 6th Jun 2007 13:26
Fair do's obviously you have experienced something I haven't and I respect that.
Figures are obviously to be taken with a pinch of salt. I dont think they are as deliberatly twisted as some here would have you believe but at the same time people have spent considerable time and money researching this and whilst it may be more for the benfit of business this kind of research has saved many lives in the past.

I remember hearing something about smoking easing allergies believe it or not. The reason being that the gunk glues down the sensitive hairs that are normally triggered by pollen but to be honest I'd still rather suffer hay fever than fill my nose throat and lungs with gunk.

Van B
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Posted: 6th Jun 2007 13:26
It's a bit more cut and dry in my case, as a diabetic smoking is just a completely stupid thing to do, that's the stuff that causes feet to fall off and gangrene and blindness too, due to the damage smoking causes internally to your nerves and blood vessels on top of the problems associated with Diabetes.

It's funny how a medical condition can kick an addiction into touch so easily, my mom stopped smoking when she had to go into hospital, if you can't smoke for a length of time, often that's the best time to stop - when the freedom of being able to smoke actually prevents you stopping, take away that freedom (by going into hospital say, or even falling pregnant) and stopping is a lot easier.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Oraculaca
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Posted: 6th Jun 2007 13:29
I agree. My dad was diagnosed with Parkinsons a few years back. One year later he woke one morning and said 'Im quitting today' He has never smoked once since then and that was after 30 or so years of 20 a day.

Fallout
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Posted: 6th Jun 2007 13:42
@Oraculaca

I hear you. I'm not saying smoking will stop you getting dementia btw, and those investigations suggest it isn't in your interest to test the theory! I'm just going on what my doctor told me, that apparently it does cause reactions in the brain which are a positive stimulation which is believed to help prevent dementia. I'm guessing that you'd have to be a very moderate smoker ... like, one or two a day, to get the benefits with a lower risk for the negatives, but again, that's a randomly guessed figure. It's probably like trying to cut your toe-nails with a chainsaw .... you might well sort out your toe-nails, but unless you get it exactly right, you're gonna do more harm than good.

The point is, I don't think we know for sure, so we've got to do the best with the data we're given. As it stands, I quit for health reasons. I never got sick from smoking, but clearly all the evidence suggests there is a good chance I would, so it's not worth the risk. Obviously the dementia argument is up for contention, but the lung cancer and heart disease arguments are pretty solid.

But anyway, ignoring that point, the social benefit was always the best one. That's the one I miss the most .... not my daily dementia inoculation.


MikeB
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Location: My Computer, Shropshire, England
Posted: 6th Jun 2007 13:43
So glad I live in England not Scotland.......

E.D.

Cash Curtis II
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Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 6th Jun 2007 14:17
You're a diabetic Van B?


Come see the WIP!
Van B
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Posted: 6th Jun 2007 14:26
Yeah, type 1, for about 2 years now. I had a really horrible time before being diagnosed, weight dropped to scary depths, almost ended up in hospital on a drip.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 6th Jun 2007 14:28 Edited at: 6th Jun 2007 14:29
Wow, the same thing happened to me a couple years ago while I was in the military. I was extremely physically fit, but I was dropping weight. I had a pretty horrible time before getting diagnosed as well. Now I'm type 1, insulin dependent.


Come see the WIP!
Dazzag
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Posted: 6th Jun 2007 14:34
Quote: "So glad I live in England not Scotland"
In a total 180 Cyprus really doesn't care (bit like France used to be). Ok, so they will have to sort it out soon if they want to fit into the EU, but I've heard reports in the papers about locals getting annoyed about no-smoking areas in pubs (as in they didn't exist at all until the last year or so). One bloke went into a busy smokey pub where everyone was smoking and pointed out to the barman that he had a non-smoking sign above the bar. The barman then pointed out that since he was not drinking alcohol (he had a coke or somesuch) then he had no right to complain. Another person in a restaurant complained to the manager (after the waiter told him to get stuffed) about a man smoking on a table opposite while directly under a non-smoking sign. The manager was totally confused and wondered what the problem was. After everyone around the smoker said that yes they would like him to stop then the guy agreed. Basically people here are like the stereotyped smokers. Got to love Cyprus.

Similar things can be seen with queues here (people just walk straight to the front and push in if you let them) and the attitude on the road (really terrible). Heh, I read on one forum of an ambulance driver turning up late smoking a ciggy, wearing jeans, then making the family carry (no stretcher) the unconcious person to the van. The only medical care observed was making sure their feet didn't hang out the back. I'm planning on buying a place next to the hospital...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Van B
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Posted: 6th Jun 2007 14:40
I had to actually diagnose myself, Google did a better job than the doctor I went to see, I actually went to the doctors the second time and demanded blood-sugar and keytone tests which lead me to being marched to hospital. Mad coincidence, but the specialist I ended up seeing actually wrote the web-page that I used to diagnose. Small world indeed.

Is your diabetes under control? - I'm thinking it probably is seeing as your fit and don't smoke, that's a major one huh!. The biggest problem for me was giving up most of my sugar intake, that's a pretty difficult thing to do living in Scotland, I mean we deep fry mars bars here and call it a vegetarian option.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Dazzag
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Posted: 6th Jun 2007 14:52 Edited at: 6th Jun 2007 14:55
A friend of mine kept fainting and feeling rough so he went to the doctor. The doctor told him that his sugar level was seriously low and to eat lots of choc and drink coke. After a bit of this my friend ended up in hospital after almost going into a coma. The doctor had basically completely got it the wrong way round (he did infact have diabetes). Would have helped if they had tested him...

Another friend was told she had the diabetes that could be controled through diet (not the shots you have to give yourself every day). She did that for a year before tests said they had cocked up and she was not diabetic. Nice.

Everything here can be got over the counter. You don't have to worry about doctor's perscriptions. Which is nice. I remember once getting a bad asthma attack for like the 1st time ever. I've always had asthma, but never had a bad attack. Anyway because I had no symptoms for like 15 years I had not bothered getting an inhaler since being a kid. One day I was cutting the grass and it hit me. Seriously bad. Having no inhaler really sucks in these cases... Anyhow, being a sunday I dashed to the local pharmacy and managed to convey that I needed an inhaler. And they wouldn't give me one. Even though I could have died right there and then (can kill you if bad enough, and not having an inhaler makes it worse). I had to go to emergency in a hospital. Even though no-one was there they said I had to phone them to book an appointment. I got my mobile phone out and they said no mobiles inside. So I literally gasped my way outside (10 metres away) and phoned the woman I had just talked to. She then waved me in and a doctor appeared. He listened to my chest and said I needed an inhaler. F**king genius mate. He then wrote a perscription and sent me on my way (nothing to help me there). Back to the pharmacy just in time before it closed to save my life. F**king ****s is what I say. Walked into a pharmacy in Cyprus yesterday and picked one up with no ID, perscription, nothing, and walked out with the same inhaler I always use at a much cheaper price than the NHS (yep, it ain't free if you work). At least the UK protected me from the heavy drug usage that comes with inhalers

Oh, and I have asthma, hayfever, and exema (or however you spell it) and my doctor says it is all allergies. Yet I can be in a room full of smokers and not be slightly effected (Dubai was like a fog in the office). For me it is all down to plants and animals. Ban sodding horses, lawn mowers and fields instead I say. Oh, and being by the sea again totally rules. Allergies are practically gone Plus Cyprus is hardly a land of grass. Especially recently cut grass.

Cheers

Ps. Suppose this smiley should go then?

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 6th Jun 2007 14:57
@Van B -
I lacked any self diagnosis skills. I knew that all of the symptoms pointed to diabetes, but I refused to acknowledge the possibility. I didn't go to get checked until my body was numb and I could no longer stand up without wobbling.

My diabetes is under control, My HA1C stays around 4.6-5.0. I'm a freak about it. The only thing that is a little hard to control is my thyroid level, apparently my pancreas and thyroid both decided to crap out on me at the same time.

I used to have a sweet tooth, but I've almost lost it in the past couple years. I use a sliding scale for my insulin intake, so it's no problem at all. I use a 10 to 1 ratio for carbs and a 30 to 1 correction ratio.


Come see the WIP!
Dazzag
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Posted: 6th Jun 2007 15:00
Quote: "I knew that all of the symptoms pointed to diabetes"
One time I just kept needing to go to toilet all the time (number ones...) even though I had just been. I went to the doctor and as I sat in the lounge I noticed all these diabetes notices. They basically pointed out 5 main symptoms. By the time I went in to see the doctor I was probably adding major symptoms for stress attacks while I was at it. Basically I had 4 out of 5 of the symptoms (toilet thing is one of them) and it said you didn't have to have all 5. Not even all 4. First thing the doctor said was diabetes. Turned out to be a urinary infection.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Krilik
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Posted: 6th Jun 2007 21:59 Edited at: 6th Jun 2007 22:01
Quote: "It would seem you missed my point entirely. Your post was so flippant. You basically said that people had a choice to not be around smokers and that they put their health at risk by doing so, so tough luck if you die from passive smoking. Do you know everyone's situation, is it so EASY to avoid smokers? I'll let you know when a smoker forces me to be around them, every time I go to a restaurant to eat a meal and they come in and light up a cigarette. They are forcing me to breathe in their smoke. Should I not go out to eat? Should I pack up and leave when they light up so as not to passively smoke? By your reckoning I have no right to go out and enjoy myself, and if I do want to go out I have made a choice that I am happy to passively smoke. You say I don't want to bother trying and just want to satisfy myself, that's not the case... your post said that people willingly subjugate themselves to passive smoke and so don't care about the health risks. My point was that in order for people to ACTIVELY avoid smokers they should just stay at home as that is the ONLY viable option considering smoking is everywhere."


In reference to people who are frequently around smokers, yes they do have a choice. If anyone who came in contact with second hand smoke died from it, this would be an entirely different conversation. But I suspect, and I think I'm right, that the majority of people who do get ill from second hand smoke are around it a lot. And by "a lot" I mean more than going into a restaurant or bar on occasion. How is it not a choice to go into a restaurant or bar that allows smoking? There are places that have no smoking signs, why not go there? Beside most people nowadays try to have common courtesy when it comes to smoking; Fallout is a perfect example of what I see happening. There is no reason why it should be a complaint from the average person.

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