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Geek Culture / NY State Anti-Game Bill

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 01:47 Edited at: 7th Jun 2007 01:50
Knowing that there are a few other TGC'ers who live in New York State (Cattle and Zen come immediately to mind), and seeing as how this directly relates to the electronic gaming industry, I figured this is worth posting. I'm hoping we don't end up getting into some political debate because of this... please, debate the bill, not the people who wrote it. I don't even know who wrote it and I don't care... it's a rediculous bill that should be protested by our community.

Anyway, onto the bill. I recieved an email from Jason Della Rocca, Executive Director of the International Game Developers Association (not that I'm friends with him or anything, all IDGA members in New York State got the same email). Here is what he says, directly quoted. I removed a bunch of things from his original e-mail to keep it somewhat brief:

Quote: "I am writing to ask for your help in responding to recent attacks on video games by the New York legislature. Bills introduced by both chambers would, among other things, make it a felony to sell or rent to any minor a game that contains "depraved violence".

These bills treat video games differently than other forms of art and entertainment like books, movies and music -­ which are afforded protection from censorship by the First Amendment. The result of any legislation being passed would have a "chilling effect" on our entire industry, regardless of the type of products you develop or the audience they are intended for. The legislation is also unnecessary because the industry has the self-regulatory program ESRB to rate its products, and provide rating information to consumers and parents. In turn, retailers are enforcing this rating system by not selling mature games to children. Additionally, the latest generation of game consoles provide parental controls that allow parents and users to easily restrict certain game content.

New York has a strong game development community. As constituents and as contributors to the state's economy, you can have a great impact on this issue and your voices need to be heard.

Other states have introduced similar legislation and nine states or localities went as far as to actually enact such legislation. However, in all nine cases, federal courts have declared the bills unconstitutional; finding that video games are artistic forms of expression worthy of the same constitutional protections as other forms of art. And since a statute that singles out constitutionally protected speech is a violation of civil rights, prevailing plaintiffs are entitled to an award of court costs and
attorney's feel. Thus taxpayers would not only bear the cost of defending an invalid New York law, but also the cost of a successful challenge. In the past six years, federal district courts have granted over $1.7 million in attorney fees; money that surely could have been better spent.

Federal courts have also overturned this legislation because of the chilling effect it would have on the industry. They have noted that such restrictions on violent content would result in retailers and developers from steering far clear of content that was the intent of the legislation. The difficulty in defining depraved violence would surely lead to ambiguity over what would be covered by the bill. Retailers, in particular, out of fear of prosecution, could simply avoid carrying any video games with content that could loosely apply.

Despite the backing of federal courts, it is not prudent to keep relying on the courts to bring reason to this issue. State legislators will continue to introduce legislation; trying different approaches to sidestep the First Amendment. Please take a minute to take action and fight against unconstitutional attacks on games and our industry."


What does everyone think about this?

PS.- If you live in New York State, the e-mail contained phone numbers that you can call to contest the bill, and I can provide those to you if you email me asking for them.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Jeku
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 02:48 Edited at: 7th Jun 2007 02:48
Quote: "Bills introduced by both chambers would, among other things, make it a felony to sell or rent to any minor a game that contains "depraved violence"."


What's your problem with this

This isn't really an "Anti-Game" bill, now is it. They're not banning the creation of violent games.

FredP
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 03:00
From what I understand they know this one is unconstitutional just like the rest but they have tried to put in language to counteract that but that probably just means it will be thrown out faster.
Every single bill that a state has passed to regulate video games has been thrown out by the courts as far as I know.
These bills are a waste of time.All major (and most minor) places that sell video games already have regulations and rules about how to sell games.

Jeku
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 03:13
Why is it unconstitutional? I'm not an American, but that sounds silly. Selling a violent game to a kid is protected by your constitution? Interesting...

FredP
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 03:45
It's not about who sells game to who...I agree that nobody should sell a minor a rated M game.As a parent if one of my kids whent and bought a rated M game themself I would go to the store and give them what for.
What makes the bill unconstitutional is that they try to put different restrictions on video games as opposed to books and other media...and there's some other fine print as well but I'm not an expert in legalese.
Nobody wants anybody to sell games to people that they shouldn't sell them to.That is why all game store chains,rental places,etc. already have policies to that effect.
And this bill is over the top.Let's say somebody sells a minor a video game...maybe on purpose or maybe they were new on the job or whatever...if they get convicted of violating this bill it's a felony.They lose the right to vote and there are other serious implications that go with being convicted of a felony.Off the top of my head I would say prison time would be one.
If there are already restrictions in place and they are working fine then why pass a law that not only is redundant but also adds unnecessary stuff to it.
I could understand a levying a fine for a violation but a felony?
That's just crazy.

Ron Erickson
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 03:59
A felony is stupidly drastic. They should just heavily fine the selling store. If they start doing that, then ownership will start to enforce the rules more. More Americans in jail solves nothing. If anything, it just breeds MORE (but different) problems for the person charged.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 04:11
Quote: "Why is it unconstitutional? I'm not an American, but that sounds silly. Selling a violent game to a kid is protected by your constitution? Interesting..."

I figured you would be just as angry about this Jeku. I think Fred nailed this one perfectly:

Quote: "What makes the bill unconstitutional is that they try to put different restrictions on video games as opposed to books and other media...and there's some other fine print as well but I'm not an expert in legalese."


This is where the problem truly lies. According to this law, my 16-year old cousin can go to the store and buy the movie "Die Hard," or "Saving Private Ryan," but if he buys a game of equal or even lesser violence, say for instance "Grand Theft Auto" (name one scene from GTA more (or even equally) violent than either movie), then the person who sells it goes to prison for committing a felony?

They can show the movie Scarface on AMC or Bravo (TV stations here in the States, not sure if they're international) at 4 o'clock in the afternoon, just when kids are getting out of school. Heck, we even watched the movie Platoon in the 10th grade, in English Class, and had to write a paper about it. And in middle school, who else had to read "The Jungle," with all of its blood-soaked detail? Even learning about the Civil War will expose your child to more violence than many of the games that legislators target when discussing violent games.

This bill is unconstitutional because it violates our first ammendment right to free speech. It unjustly targets this industry and no others. Why should games be illegal to sell over the counter to minors, but not movies or books with the exact same or even far worse content? I don't understand why it should be a felony crime to sell a violent game to a kid, but you can sell that same kid the movie Hostel or a Tom Clancy novel like Without Remorse, either of which has more violence than just about any game I can think of, and not get in any sort of trouble whatsoever. It's an extreme bias against our industry.

And what exactly is "Deprived Violence?" That phrase is as broad as one can be. There's no effort in the bill to clarify what constitutes deprived violence, or at least that's what I've been made to understand (I can't find a copy of the bill online anywhere, but I'd love to read it if anyone can find a link to it. Google came up dry). So really, what's to stop someone from declaring any old game violent? Obviously the ESRB rating system is being ignored by legislators, that or they have no idea that it exists (because they've never actually purchased a game). So who sets this standard, and more importantly, what exactly IS that standard?


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 04:14
I'm sure that if it's a felony then the store that rents it would be charged. It would probably be treated the same as a business selling alcohol to a minor.

Adults have freedom of speech protection, children do not. It's that simple. If they want to ban games with depraved violence from kids, that's fine by me. The only people I can see being unhappy about this are kids, and kids themselves don't represent any real share of the market. Their parents do, and their parents will be able to buy the exact same games as before for their wayward children.


Come see the WIP!
Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 06:19
Quote: "Adults have freedom of speech protection, children do not. It's that simple. If they want to ban games with depraved violence from kids, that's fine by me. The only people I can see being unhappy about this are kids, and kids themselves don't represent any real share of the market. Their parents do, and their parents will be able to buy the exact same games as before for their wayward children."


The problem is it sets prescedent(sp?). Every right you give away makes it easier to take the next one. Perhaps next they think the teachings of Islam is dangerous to our youth and they ban sale of the Quran to children. Maybe they decide violence is not allowed at all in video games, that a parent can be jailed for buying the game for a minor. The snowball only gets bigger. Also the fact that selling less than an ounce of pot is only a misdemenor and this is a felony is just moronic.

The day something like this comes up for a vote in my state is the day I demand a bill banning the Bible (not that I want to), but it has far more graphic violence than any game I have seen.

Chris K
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 07:30
Geez get over it! 'Chilling effect on our industry'?!? It's been like that in the UK since forever (it's a crime to sell films or games to someone under the certificate age). GTA is an 18, if you are under 18, you can't buy it. Same with films, Fight Club, American Beauty, whatever. Under 18, can't buy them.

It hasn't hurt the industry at all, the UK makes the best games in the world ( <- International games fight, commence).

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Jeku
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 19:41 Edited at: 7th Jun 2007 19:43
Well, for one I agree that kids should not be able to buy *any* of that kind of extreme violence media. They shouldn't be able to walk in and buy Scarface the movie or Scarface the game.

In that case, let the bill pass so videogames can start a precedent for other types of media. Why fuss over the fact that books, CDs, and movies aren't regulated in the same way? Why not fuss on why they're *not*.

I would be all for protecting the kids, and it seems like a lot of people are getting caught up in this way more than they should.


Quote: "This bill is unconstitutional because it violates our first ammendment right to free speech. It unjustly targets this industry and no others. Why should games be illegal to sell over the counter to minors, but not movies or books with the exact same or even far worse content?"


Typical response from you Why does everything have to be treated equal? Why not let videogames set a precedent? Would you rather videogame law take the longest route? I don't understand.

bitJericho
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 19:49 Edited at: 7th Jun 2007 19:52
Quote: "What's your problem with this

This isn't really an "Anti-Game" bill, now is it. They're not banning the creation of violent games."


Another problem is that unlike other laws, this one doesn't describe what "violence" is, it doesn't say how violent, it doesn't say what kind of violence. It's completely open ended, from what I understand.

And are you kidding me, a felony? Like, up there with tobacco and alcohol. Pretty soon you won't be able to buy games for a minor! So your 16 year old son wants to buy super mario melee, oh, but it's rated Mature, and it's a felony if you buy it for him or let him play it :/

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 19:55
Sometimes the law's a bit... overkill. After purchasing Oblivion (yes, at a legal age!), I returned to the same shop and attempted to buy Knights of the Nine. The assistant refused to believe I was 15.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
xplosys
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 20:06
Quote: "Would you rather videogame law take the longest route? I don't understand."


True. You don't, and neither do many who are not from the U.S or understand the nature of the beast.

Unless you understand the politics behind the bill, which we can't discuss here, then you can't understand why people find it dangerous. There is already a system in place to keep violent games out of the reach of children and it has it's punishments for doing so. This is not really about video games, it's about government censorship.

The people who are trying to pass this bill are the same people who are pushing gay and lesbian rights and education in our school systems. These are the same people who are removing religion from any public place. These are the very same people who want to stop certain radio and television stations from broadcasting and want to make it a crime for anyone to publish how a member of congress voted on an issue or how many votes he was absent from.

I have to stop now before I go on a rant.

Best.

I'm sorry, my answers are limited. You must ask the right question.

Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 20:54
Oddly NY state law on giving alcohol to a minor is a misdemeanor.

Quote: " ASSEMBLY COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY
Mark Leno, Chair

AB 1301 (Simitian) - As Amended: April 10, 2003


SUMMARY : Creates a new misdemeanor for any parent or guardian
who knowingly permits his or her minor child and others, as
specified, to drink alcohol or consume a controlled substance at
his or her home. Specifically, this bill :

1)Provides that when all of the following occurs, a parent is
guilty of a misdemeanor punishable up to six months in county
jail and a fine of up to $1,000:

a) The parent, responsible adult relative or legal guardian
knowingly permits his or her child or other person under
the age of 18 to consume alcohol or use a controlled
substance while in the home of the parent, responsible
adult relative or legal guardian;

b) The person under the age of 18 thereafter drives a
vehicle with a blood-alcohol concentration (BAC) of 0.01%
or is under the influence of a controlled substance; and,

c) The person under the age of 18 is involved in a traffic
collision.

2)Provides that prosecution under this proposed section does not
preclude prosecution under any other crime.

EXISTING LAW :

1)Provides that every person who sells, furnishes, gives, or
causes to be sold any alcoholic beverage to a person under 21
is guilty of a misdemeanor. [BPC Section 25658(a).]

2)Provides that any person under the age of 21 who purchases any
alcoholic beverage or consumes it in any on-sale premises is
guilty of a misdemeanor. [BPC Section 25658(b).]"


Raven
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 21:06
Here, if you either purchase or sell a game/movie/music that rating is above one of the ages of either the purchasee or purchaser you will recieve a fine.

this is roughly £6,000 (which is why Game will no longer trade-in GTA from anyone who can't product proof of age), what's more is if you're caught doing this more than 3x then you are then liable for up to 3years imprisonment.

this is for all rated mediums not just video games, or movies.
good example is retailing tobacco, alcohol, knifes, etc.

games have just been tacked on to this law. it's to protect children, not damage the industry which these lawsuits about "my teenage son mimic'd GTA and shot up his school" are seriously doing more damage than some whiney 16-yo who wants to play a game of something that glorifies aspects of life that realistically they should never experience and should remain fantasy.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 22:29 Edited at: 7th Jun 2007 22:29
Quote: "Perhaps next they think the teachings of Islam is dangerous to our youth and they ban sale of the Quran to children."

Very well said. The "snowball effect" has been seen before in legislation on a number of occasions and we shouldn't be willing to hand over freedoms of any kind for any reason, ESPECIALLY our 1st ammendment right to free speech, which in my opinion is the most important right we as citizens have. That's why I'm so fired up over this.

Quote: "Geez get over it! 'Chilling effect on our industry'?!? It's been like that in the UK since forever (it's a crime to sell films or games to someone under the certificate age). GTA is an 18, if you are under 18, you can't buy it. Same with films, Fight Club, American Beauty, whatever. Under 18, can't buy them."

Well, the problem Chris is that this law isn't regulating ANY OTHER FORM of media whatsoever, not here anyway. It's an unjust bias against our industry.

Quote: "Why does everything have to be treated equal? Why not let videogames set a precedent? Would you rather videogame law take the longest route? I don't understand."

Because that's really just not how the US legislation system works, and the proponents of this bill have no intention of sacking other forms of media in the same way. They view video games as a scurge, a brain-rotting violence-inducing menace that needs to be stopped. Remember when we were kids in the 1980's and heavy metal music was put on trial? This is basically the exact same thing. This legislation is designed specifically to attack video games, and only games. There is no pre-concieved plot to set a precedent for other forms of media. They believe that because a game has a much higher level of interactivity than any other form of media, then it *must* be the case that games induce violence and drive kids to kill people.

This is not even close to being a fact. A person whose mentally unstable might be influenced by violence in a game to run around stealing cars and shooting cops, but any kid of sound mind who is taught the difference between right and wrong will know that games are just "make believe" and shouldn't force you to do anything evil or stupid. Did kids get "influenced" by Huckleberry Fin to go rafting on the Mississippi river? It's a children's story, and the protagonist is doing something extremely dangerous (ask Jeff Buckley how dangerous that river is), and parents read this to 4-year-olds as a bedtime story.

Another reason this bill should make everyone weary, as Jerico pointed out, is because it makes no effort to define what "depraved violence" means. Most Americans are pretty weary about "open-ended policy," like, for instance, the Patriot Act. Without precisely-defined terminology, it leaves legislators open to interpret bills as they see fit and enforcers to react to those bills in their own ways. This is extremely dangerous because each politician (and each law enforcement agent) will have his or her own definition of how the bill should be defined. Without a definition of "depraved violence," they can say it means whatever they want it to mean. Heck, I just released a commercial game, and your character can drown, or be crushed to death, or have spikes driven through him, or be burned alive in a fire. Even though it's far less violent than many other games, an official might deem that Eternal Equinox contains "deprived violence." It's a slippery slope. We've seen loosely-defined laws come about in the United States before, and never have any of them proved to do anything more than shun our freedoms and lessen the value of the Bill of Rights.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 22:41
From what I read...people aren't allowed to sell violent games to minors...being kids...that is completely fair, that's why movies, DVDs and Games have the certificate system here (U, PG, 12a,15,18) you can't buy Kill Bill or GTA if you're a 15 year old, if they sell it to you, the person who sold it can get into trouble...That is fair, when I was working, I thought it was fairly reasonable that I didn't sell a kid a movie that was for 12 and older.

I think it's okay to make this law. It gives the games the audience that people aim the audiences for - adults. As for books and CD's, CD's have an 'Parental Advisory explicit lyrics' warning on it, meaning if a minor buys it, they need a parent present. As for books...well dirty magazines probably can't be sold to a 12 year old, and well credit to a kid who can get to the rather disturbing parts of a Stephen King novel

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FredP
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 22:49
I think you're missing the part where it says "depraved violence".
Like they say...beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
One man's depraved violence might be beheading someone with a shotgun or katana while another's might be Mario stomping on a mushroom.
The law does not spell out exactly what "depraved violence" is.
It is very open ended this way and open to a lot of interpretation. Kind of vague.
I live in Indiana...where some people think depraved violence is forgetting to slop the hogs.

GatorHex
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 22:49 Edited at: 7th Jun 2007 22:52
Sounds okay to me be who's making these ratings they are crazy?!

What's so evil about Oblivion that an under 15 year old can't play it?

It's rated (15) and the shop owner wouldn't sell it to this kid infront of me

Raven
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Posted: 7th Jun 2007 23:54
Quote: "I think you're missing the part where it says "depraved violence".
Like they say...beauty is in the eye of the beholder."


That's what the Rating Boards are for. If this suggested "let's ignore ERSB and put our own rating system on this", I could see a problem; but otherwise introducing a law that actually is designed to enforce that rating system so it no longer becomes volentary (which technically is, but publishers now rate every game for legal reasons) and it moves from being a guideline to legal requirement.

This makes the rating system work, rather than remain a guideline.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th Jun 2007 00:52
Quote: "I think you're missing the part where it says "depraved violence".
Like they say...beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
One man's depraved violence might be beheading someone with a shotgun or katana while another's might be Mario stomping on a mushroom.
The law does not spell out exactly what "depraved violence" is."


Fair point, but that's an email from someone else who isn't quoting the legislation, the guy in the email could be referring to 'depraved violence' in the point of view of those nagging mothers in magazine columns, hence he's used speech marks. Or it could be his interpretation and the speech marks are to identify the informality of the phrase, or could well be a quotation from the legislation. If that is so...then how silly is that, because the word is down to interpretation...This could be an awful problem when trying to take someone to court. If this is the quote from the legislation, I'd edit it before letting it pass. There are too many loop holes in the law as it is. Why not learn from the fathers you betrayed with your revolution and use the freaking rating board...so the uh 'professionals' decide what 'depraved' material is, so there is no ambiguity in the law...

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 8th Jun 2007 01:03
As I understand it, the phrase "depraved violence" is a literal quote from the bill itself.

If this bill were being put in place to enforce the ESRB ratings system, and the same law applied to other forms of media, and lastly, it defined "depraved violence" with some level of exactness, then I'd not be complaining about it. It's the fact that they're ignoring the ESRB's existence, the loose wording the bill contains, and the fact that this bill was written exclusively as a cheap stab at our industry that makes me so upset.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 8th Jun 2007 02:03 Edited at: 8th Jun 2007 02:04
Quote: "...make it a felony to sell or rent to any minor a game that contains "depraved violence"."


I'm all for fining for such an incident. But a FELONY?? That's like, you can't get a job because you sold a kid a video game!! Hell, even like Matt noted above, you can sell tobacco and alcohol and not get a felony! A misdemeanor (which personally I think is still too much, but I wouldn't complain about it) and small fine is perfectly acceptable for someone who sells a game rated mature by the esrb to a minor under 16, but a felony is just rediculous

Jeku
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Posted: 8th Jun 2007 08:30
Quote: "You don't, and neither do many who are not from the U.S or understand the nature of the beast."


Rofl-- you think because I live 10 minutes from the border I don't understand US politics? Canada pretty much either: a) progresses further than the US on major issues (i.e. marijuana de-criminilization) or b) follows in American's footsteps not long after a bill is introduced.

So *yes* I understand the "nature of the beast" as I follow politics quite closely (albeit Canadian, American, and world politics).

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