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Geek Culture / Where is microsoft and windows heading, and do you like it?

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Mr Z
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 22:06
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Hi all.

First note that I do not want this to turn into an bashing discussion of what makes ms good or bad. And secondly, note that I make an difference between ms an windows. Windows is the product, ms is the company that makes it, and you can like the product but still dont like the company, as I do.

I personally do not have much against windows. Sure, Im not very impressed with vista, but I dont hate it either. My xp is stable, and fill my needs. Anyway, the problem that I feel with it is that it thinks it knows better then me. I know what Im doing.

My thoughts of where windows is heading:
Windows seems to become more and more resouce demanding. It also seems like ms is an copycat that ripoff other oses rather then invent things for windows. And the last negative point is that windows often thinks its the users bigger brother.
Positive things. Its in some ways improving. Becomeing more stable, more secure (uac is in some ways an huge improvement, but, even though the idea comes from the unix family, have a long way left. However, since I have very little experiance with vista, I dont really know so much. Uac is an good and bad thing at the same time). Its becomeing better and better at memory management.
So there are good sides as well as bad sides when it comes to where windows is heading, I think.


And now to ms:
When it comes to ms Im a bit more negative. They seems to want to rule the world, which I strongly misslike. Ok, meny, but not all, of their products are really great. Visual Studio is the best programming environment Ive ever come across. But I dont like how they sued linux and how much they take for their oses (over 400 dollars in my country, which is more then my rent, which is more then I can afford if I want food on my table), among other things.
I dont really like ms. But thats me.

Now to you. You might find this article interesting, if you like to know whats planned for windows:
Windows Vienna

Where do you think windows is heading?
And where is ms heading?


Just post your thoughts of ms and windows. And please keep the discussion on an decent, non-fanatic level.

Take care,
Mr Z.

When your love leaves you, it hurt. But when she wants you back, when she reallize leaving you was an mistake, who am I not to take her back, if I still love her?
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hessiess
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 22:10 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2007 21:30
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its a bloated pile of junk, and its ugly, so i dont like it

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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 22:12
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I have never tried Vista, but I have heard many of the common applications are not supported. When I buy my new computer next year, I will get Vista only if all of the things I want to use are compatible with it.

Quote: "But I dont like how they sued linux"


Um, not sure where you got that info

I agree that VS is the best and most fully-featured dev environment, and there's a reason why it's the industry standard.

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David R
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 22:14
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Quote: "I agree that VS is the best and most fully-featured dev environment, and there's a reason why it's the industry standard."


I agree, although once KDE4 finishes its transition to Win32, and when (and if) kdevelop gets a port, I think that could become top of my list. VS is nice, but kdevelop has a lot of very nice features, which I must say I miss after a stint of using ubuntu and then returning to XP + MSVC


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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 22:15 Edited at: 18th Nov 2007 22:16
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Quote: "They seems to want to rule the world, which I strongly misslike."

That's really not it. They're a company. Companies are meant to grow large and become very prosperous. My opinion is that they're the best at that, with 85% of the market. Now, they're not evil. Try to look at it as by each individual person. They like building software (Most likely). They have families to feed (Most of 'em). They're probably not bent on "world domination" (Unlike me ). Bill Gates even started a foundation with his wife, Melinda which donates money to the children all over the world! They donate computers to libraries in places that can't afford them. And without MS you would have no Windows.

As for Windows Vienna, from what I read, that sounds cool! Sounds like extreme compatibility since everything would be running in a virtual machine except specific apps... Though it would be nice if Windows Vista apps were to work, we probably won't be seeing a Windows Vienna for a few years.

Edit
They sued the makers of "Lindows" because the name was too similar to their product or something. So "Lindows" was renamed to "Linspire" which is what I had.

Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 22:18
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Quote: "VS is nice, but kdevelop has a lot of very nice features, which I must say I miss after a stint of using ubuntu and then returning to XP + MSVC"


Hmm interesting, I haven't used kdevelop in about 5 years. It might be nice to see what it looks like now.

One of the best new things about VS.NET 2005 is how you can pause the executable when it's running, change something in the code, and continue running with the changes, without restarting the executable. That came in handy quite a bit for me, even with all of the restrictions it had.

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Mr Z
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 22:29
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Haveing almost everything run in an virtual machine has good and bad sides. I like it at the same time that I dont (I dont like .net at the same time as I like it, since it has some good and bad sides). But the idea is very interesting. If they evolved the idea further, it could lead to that programs would not be based on platform in the same degree as before. That would be really awsome.

Quote: "Um, not sure where you got that info"


Read it in an magazine (dont remember which one, but I know it was reliable) and read discussions about it on an forum. They did sue linux, for breaking patents. But since they never really said which patents, I dont think their case was very strong.

Quote: "That's really not it. They're a company. Companies are meant to grow large and become very prosperous."


Well, I see what you mean. But still, even for an company, they seem to be an bit extreme. But that how I look at it, I know there are many ways to see things.

When your love leaves you, it hurt. But when she wants you back, when she reallize leaving you was an mistake, who am I not to take her back, if I still love her?
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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 22:38
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Quote: "Haveing almost everything run in an virtual machine has good and bad sides. I like it at the same time that I dont (I dont like .net at the same time as I like it, since it has some good and bad sides). But the idea is very interesting. If they evolved the idea further, it could lead to that programs would not be based on platform in the same degree as before. That would be really awsome."

I don't like programming for .NET for many reasons, but .NET isn't a bad idea. I understand it's optimized at runtime and executed. I read somewhere (And I'm still trying to find where) that it builds the code as it's running though. I can't prove this until I find where, but I think there's also an option to prebuild the entire code. I still don't like .NET for many reasons, but it's not a bad idea.

Quote: "Well, I see what you mean. But still, even for an company, they seem to be an bit extreme. But that how I look at it, I know there are many ways to see things."

Indeed. But sometimes the extreme is necessary. Kind of like wrestling a crocodile. You don't want to *not* be extreme and lose. It's better to be extreme and win.


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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Keo C
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 22:39
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The only evil microsoft product was Microsft Bob.


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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 22:40
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Oh god yes. That was quite possibly one of the biggest flops in history.


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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Keo C
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 22:46
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Too bad Clippy survived


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Antidote
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 23:00
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Quote: "One of the best new things about VS.NET 2005 is how you can pause the executable when it's running, change something in the code, and continue running with the changes, without restarting the executable. That came in handy quite a bit for me, even with all of the restrictions it had."


This isn't just a powerful debugging tool, but a VERY powerful scripting tool. With C# you can literally write c# code and have your code compile it. What this means is you can have a game running in XNA, have a seperate text editing window that opens with the game, write a script, compile it, and watch the changes happen in real time once it compiles. It's incredibly useful and has kept me using XNA because of it.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 23:04
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Quote: "One of the best new things about VS.NET 2005 is how you can pause the executable when it's running, change something in the code, and continue running with the changes"
You can do that in VB6 (can't remember if older versions could or not). Well as long as it doesn't have to completely reset the project. Most of the time is fine though. Tried the new 2008 beta? Pretty nice.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 23:07
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@Antidote - That sounds awesome I am reading through the XNA tutorials in my spare time, as I'd love to port some of my games over.

@Dazzag -
Quote: "You can do that in VB6 (can't remember if older versions could or not)."


Wow, I didn't know that. I used to use VB6 quite a bit, but never did anything hardcore with it.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 23:14
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Quote: "I used to use VB6 quite a bit, but never did anything hardcore with it"
I've used VB since the VB DOS version (not GW or QBasic, but a version that looked a hell of a lot like QBasic with VB type functionality) but I've found it takes years to find a lot of the little tricks (I should search the box again incase they include a hidden hints and tips sheet or something...). Took me about 10 years or so to discover the F2 functionality, and it's an option on the right click menu too... Oh, and not to mention the button to rem/unrem entire sections. Can't believe I missed that one for so long...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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n008
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 23:15
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Ms:

Will boat to extinction like any other Multi-billion dollar comapny that is top-heavy.

Good points:

1. VS
2. MSDN

Bad points:

1. Customer service stinks
2. It is much more difficult to secure software than it should be
3. Has sued a few linux vendors for very vague reasons:
a. Red Hat Linux
b. Lindows
c. Linus Torvalds himself

That 's all i shall name for now...

Windows:

I see windows going one of three places:

1. Slowly dieing off as more stable, managed OSs are created and improved

2. Will not die, but will fade out of the main picture in a few years

3. Will be adopted into another company when Ms dies.

Windows' Good points:

1. Easy of use
2. Explorer

Windows' bad points:

1. Terrible file system
2. No terminal
3. Vista killed backwards compatibility
4. Treats the user like an idiot and assumes that they are incompetent when it comes to anything with the computer
5. Has stolen several systems and processes from the Unix family

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David R
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 23:21
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Quote: "2. No terminal"


You say what now...?


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Dazzag
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 23:22 Edited at: 18th Nov 2007 23:23
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Not massively impessed with Vista myself (VB6 needs to have Aero turned off to run correctly for example), but I can't see Windows being anything other than the major player for a long time. Will take a massive change to turn that one around, and as good and popular as Linux and OSX are getting, it just pales compared to Windows for sheer volume. Give it a couple of decades then maybe, just maybe... Or do something magical in Linux for seamless compatibility with *all* Windows apps (that inc. games) and you could speed things up somewhat.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 23:27
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Windows V2.0 had a terminal. Windows 2.0 apps can be freely downloaded.

@Mr Z
You should know that this is just gonna turn into a "Microsoft Sucks", "Microsoft is f***ing awsome you idiot", "No it's not you dip****!" thread.... So now it's time for me to take my leave from this thread, as there are already enough threads of this as is.


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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GatorHex
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 23:39
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I think they have lost the plot a bit

The user interface was great with File|Edit|View etc you could pick up any poiece of software but now it's getting like Linux or Apple where the damn interface is a mess between programs. Try finding where to change the screen resolution or where to change your IP address on Vista, very annoying!

I do like they have somewhere to put the games now and they state wether you PC meets the recommended specs.

I think the future for MS, Windows and all the other software is that the more they make it copy proof the more people will try free alternatives like Ubuntu and StarOffice. I only need windows for game programming I could live without if Linux had DirectX ;P

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Nov 2007 23:42
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I'd make the broad guess that in the next ten years, another OS will come out that will meteorically rise in power and challenge Windows. With each new OS M$ cranks out, more and more people are starting to dislike them. Windows 98 was the last OS that I can think of where people weren't complaining about it as it replaced 95. A direct quote from a friend of mine, which is only being said for comedic value: "XP was a small turd in a huge box, and Vista is a bigger turd in a smaller box." A lot of people don't like Vista and don't care for its features, and I'd assume that will drive someone out there in software land to whip out a new OS.

Know what would be an awesome idea? An OS that's compatable with everything, is fully secure 24/7, and leaves an extremely tiny footprint on your resources... like, it can run on 10MB RAM. Someone go make that! Now!


MISoft Studios
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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 00:08
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Okay Mr. Rock. I shall make it!


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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Mr Z
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 00:14 Edited at: 19th Nov 2007 00:15
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Quote: "You should know that this is just gonna turn into a "Microsoft Sucks", "Microsoft is f***ing awsome you idiot", "No it's not you dip****!" thread.... So now it's time for me to take my leave from this thread, as there are already enough threads of this as is."


YAY!

Nah, just kidding. Thats an pitty. Both that you leave and that (hopefully if) the thread would become like that. I love descussions... as long as they are in an respective and nice manner.


Quote: "Know what would be an awesome idea? An OS that's compatable with everything, is fully secure 24/7, and leaves an extremely tiny footprint on your resources... like, it can run on 10MB RAM. Someone go make that! Now!
"


Amen to that.


EDIT:
Quote: "Okay Mr. Rock. I shall make it!"


Then please let me in!!!

When your love leaves you, it hurt. But when she wants you back, when she reallize leaving you was an mistake, who am I not to take her back, if I still love her?
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n008
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 00:14
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I know someone who is making an OS, he is trying to create something that uses very little resources, has a great file system, explorer, GUI, etc. It's still in it's creation and debug stage now though.

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 00:18
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ReactOS in the mean time <Though alpha stages>. Oh wait, I said I was leaving..... Well, I'll just say stuff here and there and not respond to the core discussion. Just commenting on what other's say, and such.

Though I really am making an OS.


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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Mr Z
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 00:21 Edited at: 19th Nov 2007 00:23
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Aaron, Ive got tones of ideas about os features, so if youd like, I could help you with the ideas .

EDIT:

Note that that would also be the most I could help you. Still dont know any programming language that would help in the development of an os. But still, my offer to help with coming up with ideas stands.

When your love leaves you, it hurt. But when she wants you back, when she reallize leaving you was an mistake, who am I not to take her back, if I still love her?
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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 00:22
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Sure. I'll add ya to MSN so we can talk more about this.


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 00:30
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Quote: "One of the best new things about VS.NET 2005 is how you can pause the executable when it's running, change something in the code, and continue running with the changes, without restarting the executable. That came in handy quite a bit for me, even with all of the restrictions it had."

yeah, thats an old throw back to VB6 (VS6) and iirc it was available in vb5 as well. They got rid of that ability when the first iteration of .NET was released, which didnt bather me much because I never really used that feature all that much to begin with. They are (ms) somewhat back-pedalling and reintroduced the feature (Edit And Continue its called) since the numbers of vb6 developers that have migrated to .NET has not been as high as ms would have liked. I understand that its the corp devl envirionment that is causing most of this reluctance, since they have tons of business software in place that is vb6/com and a deathly afriad to migrate it and break stuff, not to mention the cost to redevelop these apps and various pieces. From a pure coding standpoint anyone who is sticking in vb6 just for giggles is really missing the boat with .NET. I was lucky enough to work for a company at the time .NET was released that encouraged forward thinking and migration to .NET early on. I was able to switch to .NET and not really look back since, except for a few things back then that were maintained for a short while. I recently got hired by a company to be the lead .NET developer to migrate their existing product line (apps in vb6, vba for access, etc) into .NET. Right now I am adding a new feature to one of their systems (for electronic medical billing) and I am writing it as a DLL in .NET and exposing to COM so they can integrate it into the current Access VBA app, then later I will redevelop that entire front-end app in .net (winforms) and it will simply use the same dll to do the same set of work.

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]
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Keo C
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 00:52 Edited at: 19th Nov 2007 00:55
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About your OS Aaron, if you get your forum working I'll pitch in ideas and help a little.
What's it going to be /is based on? UNIX?


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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 00:55
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Okay KeoC.

Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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Keo C
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 01:35
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Is it going to be Linux/Unix based?


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n008
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 01:42
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I'd hope so. Just because the ₩indow$ Source hasn't been released by ₥i¢ro$oft yet. And is probably uncommented anyway .

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Mr Z
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 01:47
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Uncommented? What Ive heard, its commented. But its full with words like "f*ck".

When your love leaves you, it hurt. But when she wants you back, when she reallize leaving you was an mistake, who am I not to take her back, if I still love her?
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Keo C
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 01:48 Edited at: 19th Nov 2007 01:48
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Worst. Post. Ever.
(n008's post that is)


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n008
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 01:52
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Well, why would anyone want to make a Windows based OS? Unix is much cleaner.

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Keo C
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 01:57
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Quote: "Well, why would anyone want to make a Windows based OS? Unix is much cleaner.
"
Of course it would be better, but you bashed Windows so hard, even Tux felt sorry for it.


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 02:07
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To compete with M$, the OS would need to be extremely compatable and easily to use... like, someone with no computer experience at all would need to be able to navigate his or her way around the GUI without calling tech support or breaking their fingers. And that simplicity would need to be at the installed level... no modding the engine to make it simpler. And security has to be high up on the priority list for consumer report magazines and advocacy groups to endorse it. Making an OS that's commercially viable is next to impossible, but it could definitely be done I think.


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n008
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 02:09 Edited at: 19th Nov 2007 02:10
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lol. I didn't think i was that harsh.

This is bashing windows: http://blogs.pcworld.com/tipsandtweaks/archives/005783.html

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aluseus GOD
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 02:22
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I believe Microsoft is slowly ruining itself with stupid things and in a while it will eventually die.

alus.portbb.com go there.
[quote]A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes.[/quote} -zenicanin14 the stupidest user in the world.
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aluseus GOD
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 02:25
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Oh yeah, sorry for the double post, but I'm noob slapped again, but I forgot to say, theres also Windows Server 2008 coming out.

alus.portbb.com go there.
[quote]A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes.[/quote} -zenicanin14 the stupidest user in the world.
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Antidote
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 02:31
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Quote: "That sounds awesome I am reading through the XNA tutorials in my spare time, as I'd love to port some of my games over."


It's totally worth it. I think it's just the right blend of function and simplicity that makes it appealing to hobbyists and independent developers. Since it's managed graphics mode you never have to worry about the base level memory management, but you still have plenty of flexibility. The fact that it's all in C# which is just as easy to use as java is just icing on the cake. Definitely worth a try, some friends of mine and I have even started a game design club at my school using XNA.

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Keo C
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 02:32
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Quote: "lol. I didn't think i was that harsh.

This is bashing windows"

Ok, I agree with you now.


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Jeku
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 02:51
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Quote: "Uncommented? What Ive heard, its commented. But its full with words like "f*ck"."


Haha I've seen a lot of that myself

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 03:23
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@KeoC
Well, the perhaps some parts might be "borrowed" from Linux. For example if I wanted the ext/2 fs I'd just use the Linux source since that'd be the best working way. The OS itself won't be *like* Linux, rather set up to be easy to use and have some cool (Or what I believe are cool) features in it. Mr Z and I talked and he had some pretty cool ideas too! So in a way it'll be original. When the wheel gets too old, just reinvent it and make it better. If nothing else it'll be a great learning experience and a good bash at creating an original OS.

I'm *thinking* about having the OS just "boot" from FreeDOS as well. In this way I won't have to code for the file system or memory management, but can still code for protected mode, multitasking, etc. All that stuff. But I'm not too sure for 2 reasons, a) FreeDOS won't work (It complains about a missing "ntldr" file, which I think is part of Windows so I wouldn't be able to redistribute that file), and b) Writing an entire OS from scratch would be just soooo much more rewarding in the end (For both self and for the OS)


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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Keo C
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 03:28 Edited at: 19th Nov 2007 03:30
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And if you port Ruby to your OS, I'll program some programs you could bundle with it. Or make it read Linux code. If it can read Linux programs I'll be too happy port programs and such to it.


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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 03:39
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Thanks. Open Watcom C/C++/Fortran compiler is planned to be ported to it (Man I love that thing). It doesn't take a lot to get an existing DOS program to work for an OS as long as the OS can handle DOS, so there shouldn't be *too* much work needed to get some of that working. If Ruby has a "just-for-dos" implementation it should work too.


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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Keo C
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 03:47
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If you compile it, it will work with DOS.


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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 04:00
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Then Ruby should be supported.


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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Keo C
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 04:06
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I heard even if the OS doesn't support multi-threading, the program will.
If compiled with Ruby. If you stick that in, I'll glady use and program with it.


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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 04:52
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Keo C, the forums are working again! I just got 'em working and though I'd let you know.

And about Ruby, that's pretty awsome. Ruby sounds like a good programming language, I used to think it was only for scripting just yesterday.

Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
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