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Geek Culture / Where is microsoft and windows heading, and do you like it?

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dark donkey
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 14:52
Quote: "MacOSX and Linux lovers, take a look at Windows. When was the last time you saw Microsoft update their Kernel in a version of Windows?
"


Thats just stupid. I have an Xbox 1 running Linux. Have you used linux?. Im guessing no so how do you know?.
Antidote
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 15:08
Quote: "Thats just stupid. I have an Xbox 1 running Linux. Have you used linux?. Im guessing no so how do you know?."


Agreed everything that Raven and ionstream said about Linux shows that they have probably never used it for more than 10 minutes. Seriously actually use it for a while and learn about it before you start exaggerating what you've heard about it to the point where it sounds ridiculous.

Quote: "Everyone bitched when they had poor security due to their old technology, now they bitch about too much."


It's not that they have too much security, it's that they add ridiculous 'security' like UAC that does NOTHING. Hey this program is trying to run, shall I click permission? Not to mention you can't set it always remember what you clicked so everytime you run a program that Windows doesn't recognize you have to deal with stupid UAC popping up. Do yourself a favor and turn the damn thing off. It's probably the most useless feature ever implemented in Windows (besides everything in Bob and ME).

Raven
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 15:42
Quote: "Thats just stupid. I have an Xbox 1 running Linux. Have you used linux?. Im guessing no so how do you know?. "


SuSE (Novell) Professional 7-11
RedHat 5+
Fedora (RedHat for poor students)
DSL
Knoppix
Debian
Ubuntu (Current have running on one of my systems that multi-boots)
Gentoo
Linspire (Lindows)
Mandrake
YellowDog
PuppyLinux

Those are all the distros of Linux I have used since I first used it in 1993, and I've always had an active installation of Linux on one of the computers I own.

I also helped to get GCLinux running when it was in active development back in 2002.

So you're right, no I have very little experience with it. Obviously.

As for running Linux on the Xbox itself, how often does it update itself; in-particular the Kernel.
The Windows NT 5.0 (Windows 2000) Kernel has NOT been updated since it was a Release Candidate in 1999.

The last time Linux Kernel 2.6.x was updated was last month with release 24, which given 2.6 was released in 2004 means over 3 years it has required 24 fixes for the Kernel itself.
(some of which if you look over the release/bug notes have been serious problems)

Quote: "It's not that they have too much security, it's that they add ridiculous 'security' like UAC that does NOTHING. Hey this program is trying to run, shall I click permission? Not to mention you can't set it always remember what you clicked so everytime you run a program that Windows doesn't recognize you have to deal with stupid UAC popping up. Do yourself a favor and turn the damn thing off. It's probably the most useless feature ever implemented in Windows (besides everything in Bob and ME)."


You know why I like UAC?
Because even with my brother running an app in admin mode, it doesn't give him full system access.. only those areas directly required by that application.

So the Windows System files, are safe.
All of the files in my personal folders, are safe.
The rest of the Programs on the computer, are safe.

The reason it asks you is so it can access outside of your personal area. You don't want it to do it once you've installed something, install to your user area rather than publically.

So no matter how much he might bugger up his own area, it doesn't affect mine what so ever.

Still you're probably right, it does absolutely nothing.. just there to annoy you with pop-up messages. Good luck with all that malware that gets past your AV/AS programs.

Corky
User Banned
Posted: 24th Nov 2007 15:46 Edited at: 24th Nov 2007 15:50
I agree totally with Raven on the uac part. Only because I know it protects my files, and I know my files aren't going to get corrupted and ruined. See im to lazy to create backups of files, so once I lose them, I lose them, with this I know im safe.

dark donkey
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 16:02
Quote: "SuSE (Novell) Professional 7-11
RedHat 5+
Fedora (RedHat for poor students)
DSL
Knoppix
Debian
Ubuntu (Current have running on one of my systems that multi-boots)
Gentoo
Linspire (Lindows)
Mandrake
YellowDog
PuppyLinux

Those are all the distros of Linux I have used since I first used it in 1993, and I've always had an active installation of Linux on one of the computers I own.

I also helped to get GCLinux running when it was in active development back in 2002.

So you're right, no I have very little experience with it. Obviously"


If you really hate linux then why do you have it installed?.
n008
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 16:04
Yea, it's not as if Linux is any good or compatible, right?

Benjamin
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 16:17 Edited at: 24th Nov 2007 16:18
Quote: "it's that they add ridiculous 'security' like UAC that does NOTHING"

My, considering you know so much about the OS and its functioning you should be programming it!

Why do all the fanboys get their backs up when someone mentions some of the disadvantages of using Linux? I don't see these people saying that Linux is crap, I just see them stating their opinion on it. If you don't like it then feel free to leave this thread.

Also, why are you saying UAC is useless when Linux does the exact same thing? It asks for your permission before letting programs do certain things.

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
Multisync V1 (DBP/DBCe)
David R
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 16:58
Quote: "but they'll never run as quick as the native versions without official implimentation"


http://winehq.org/site/myths


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Raven
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 16:59
Quote: "If you really hate linux then why do you have it installed?."


Perhaps because I'm not a small minded individual who believes there is only one true OS that must be followed and worshiped.
I'm also not stupid enough to believe emulation is better than the real thing.

Also, imo Experience out-weights Education.
If let's say someone has read up on the technical abilities of Linux, and another personal has simply used it for 4years... the personal I would want to help me develop on the platform is the guy with the experience.

Simply because there are things you get with experience you can't learn from a book. It's the same when you want to argue about the validity of a product.

This is why most here I firmly believe have no basis for arguing the merits of Linux vs Windows. I will however argue (and have done in the past) in quite a civilised way with Kentaree, becuase like me he uses both platforms regularly.

Often is the case in our arguments we end up actually learning a bit more about the OS the other prefers.. but it has never boiled down to a simple "Linux is best" or "Windows is best" situation. We both do often see the others point-of-view and see the validity of using one over the other for something.

It isn't basless accusations and claims trumpted up between people who frankly don't have the experience with either OS like it is in threads like this.

Hell, I bet most who panned Microsoft planning a new OS for 2010 to replace Vista don't even know half of what Vista actually has under the hood. Most of you are still on the fence or firmly and baselessly believe it is the OS of evil.

Saw this same behaviour when Windows XP was released, at someone point people will realise they're being stupid; but it takes a while.

I've seen so many bitching about UAC, but it protect you and your data. They bitch about Vista's lack of compatibility; but frankly it's a damn sight better than what XP has for legacy applications... and XP was an enhancement of old libraries not new ones written from scratch.

That in itself is truely an amazing achievement!
I mean there are only a handful of Windows XP-era programs that don't work, something like 200-ish recorded by Microsoft out of a library of over 10,000 software applications.

That's a compatibility rate of over 99%, from an entirely new library set. Am I the only person seriously impressed by that?!
Sony couldn't even achieve that compatibility rate with the PS2 despite having the bloody PSOne hardware built-in.

Seriously, the sheer work and time Microsoft put in to make sure this OS was the most stable to date (which it undeniably is) from release; and their dedication to make sure that it still works, looks and acts like legacy Windows. When you consider the size of what Windows actually provides services wise... it's just mind-boggling.

They've made huge stride in security, ease-of-use, functionality.
I mean, it's like id Software releasing RAGE with the ability to run any game created in it's legacy engines back to Wolfenstein3D and all but say 2 or 3 running exactly as they did when they were created with the new spit'n'shine of the RAGE engine.

Sorry, but that would impress people... yet for Windows no one seems to care or realise how big a deal this is.
One feature people don't realise is in there, is that Vista will automatically utilise multi-core/processor systems to enhance the speed of legacy applications that only utilise a single hardware thread.

But because it is done in the background without anyone knowing this, it's an ignored but fundimentally important aspect of the OS.
No instead people bitch and compare to other Operating Systems.

Vista is an evolutionary step. As big as Windows 95, which people just can't see right now as they're too worried about things that frankly don't matter.

Raven
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 17:09
Quote: "
http://winehq.org/site/myths"


Wine is an emulator, whether they want to admit it or not.
Sure, it isn't emulating architecture; but it is still emulating.

By their definition, if I created an OpenGL32.dll that wrapped all of OpenGLs functionality to DirectX; then I'm emulating, if however I created an OpenGL ICD to replace the driver one that wrapped to the DirectX WDDM... i'm no longer emulating.

Because I'm not changing OpenGL itself, I'm merely changing what functions are called at the system level to make it run. Is it quicker than direct emulation at the function level? Sure.
Is it quicker than emulation of architecture (i.e. Emulating a Radeon HD 2900 on a GeForce 8800) sure.

Fact is it is still slower than native code, for the same reason that .NET Code despite the runtime compiler to native x86 will never run as quickly as natively compiled and optimised x86 code.

Sure it might get better with each version, but at the end of the day it will never reach the same performance level, no without the architecture changing to support and optimise at the hardware level.

Mr Z
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 17:14
Calm down, people. We are talking about OSes, and they are only platforms to work on, nothing that is worth arguing insanly about.

Well, about linux "haveing" UAC (which is a bad way to put it, since linux used that system before UAC was reality, and that they work differently), it´s not entierly true. The two systems work a bit different under the hood, and, if I have understood it right by reading postes on forums (have an limited experiance of vista), they are implemented in different ways. Lets see, I think these three wikipedia articles can put some light over the difference between the systems:

UAC:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_Account_Control

Sudo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudo

And an comparison between different security systems:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_privilege_authorization_features

Which system you prefer is up to you.

Quote: "The Windows NT 5.0 (Windows 2000) Kernel has NOT been updated since it was a Release Candidate in 1999.

The last time Linux Kernel 2.6.x was updated was last month with release 24, which given 2.6 was released in 2004 means over 3 years it has required 24 fixes for the Kernel itself.
(some of which if you look over the release/bug notes have been serious problems)"


If you want to look at that in that way, then do so. The NT kernel is not bad, it´s stable and works quite well even today (I say that because my xp works well), but I hardly think it´s perfect and could not be "upgraded".

As for the linux kernel, the fact that it is being upgraded with patches and new versions can be an positive thing. It takes away the "critical" stuff you talk about. Make sense if you want to improve. Not saying it´s perfect either.

To be honest, if we where to compare the two kernels, NT would propobly own the linux kernel in some aspects, and in others the linux one would own the NT one.

Darknes, you haunt me. If I give in, I would be an monster beyond imagining. Light, you guide me. Thanks to you, I see past the nothingness. Life, I choose to live in the light.
Benjamin
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 17:17
Quote: "Well, about linux "haveing" UAC (which is a bad way to put it, since linux used that system before UAC was reality, and that they work differently), it´s not entierly true"

No one said it has UAC. I meant it is similar in the way it protects you.

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
Multisync V1 (DBP/DBCe)
Mr Z
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 17:24
I wrote it was an bad way to put it to . And it´s simular, but not the same thing. Not so close the the same thing. Just pointed out they work in completly different ways under the hood, and that the gksudo (ubuntus version of UAC) interface is implemented in another way.

Darknes, you haunt me. If I give in, I would be an monster beyond imagining. Light, you guide me. Thanks to you, I see past the nothingness. Life, I choose to live in the light.
David R
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 17:30
Quote: "Sure it might get better with each version, but at the end of the day it will never reach the same performance level, no without the architecture changing to support and optimise at the hardware level."


Assuming you're correct (which you categorically are not)... performance level in what, exactly?

I've played games with Wine, and none of them run slower, either FPS wise, or just generally, than in Windows; if anything, they run faster. So what's running/performing slower, exactly? And why do we care?


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Raven
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 17:38
Quote: "Assuming you're correct (which you categorically are not)... performance level in what, exactly?

I've played games with Wine, and none of them run slower, either FPS wise, or just generally, than in Windows; if anything, they run faster. So what's running/performing slower, exactly? And why do we care?"


Prove it.
Wine wraps Windows calls to the Linux Kernel, those which are incompatible it rebuilds the libraries themselves to use Linux variations.

It's a form of emulation no matter how you look at it.

Antidote
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 17:42
Quote: "Still you're probably right, it does absolutely nothing.. just there to annoy you with pop-up messages. Good luck with all that malware that gets past your AV/AS programs.
"


Before about a month ago I was running XP fine with no malware problems for about 2 years. The malware that got on my computer happened by a stupid mistake that was my own. If you honestly believe that UAC can help keep your computer safe you're living in a fantasy world. Just recently I saw an interesting bug that puts vista in an infinite restart loop if a cursor file is put on the desktop. Vista isn't Microsoft's biggest failure (god look at ME or Bob) but it doesn't deliver at all. I also was never one to complain about security. I've always taken the approach that if you get infected with something it's your own fault for not putting up the necessary precautions. I don't use security suites or any of that. I simply don't like the strain on system resources. Really security is as simple as setting up a decent firewall, not visiting harmful websites, not using IE, and not opening suspicious emails or attachments. Regardless, if you really like UAC go ahead and use it I really don't care. Just don't start talking about how crappy Linux is.

Raven
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 18:04
Quote: "Before about a month ago I was running XP fine with no malware problems for about 2 years. The malware that got on my computer happened by a stupid mistake that was my own. If you honestly believe that UAC can help keep your computer safe you're living in a fantasy world. Just recently I saw an interesting bug that puts vista in an infinite restart loop if a cursor file is put on the desktop. Vista isn't Microsoft's biggest failure (god look at ME or Bob) but it doesn't deliver at all. I also was never one to complain about security. I've always taken the approach that if you get infected with something it's your own fault for not putting up the necessary precautions. I don't use security suites or any of that. I simply don't like the strain on system resources. Really security is as simple as setting up a decent firewall, not visiting harmful websites, not using IE, and not opening suspicious emails or attachments. Regardless, if you really like UAC go ahead and use it I really don't care. Just don't start talking about how crappy Linux is."


So Internet Explorer is more susceptable to Malware, because it's what Microsoft developed? You know you can run scripting that can gain full access to a computer via FireFox right? In-fact you can signal it to download an install an xpi without the users knowledge providing you with complete security priviledges that the application provides.

No warnings, no errors.. nothing.
Opera is just as bad, in-fact Sony have had to release several patches for it so far on their PS3 because of security holes.

And if you use not AntiVirus or AntiSpyware... how exactly do you know the system is clean? Here's something interesting you might not know, there is a variant of Empire.Monkey.B (believe it's called Porax) that take advantage of the updatable firmware in DVD drives (susceptable on ALL OS, not just Windows) where it'll hide in the firmware; and anytime you use a disc it will attach itself to the main memory to do what it needs to.

After which it just deletes itself from memory. Still with the base version hiding in the DVD Firmware; the key symptom from it is it'll write half of your memory to zero in p-mode resulting in less overall physical memory... secondary aspect is providing a network trojan that provides whoever sent it full access to all of the OS; and as it's done through the DVD driver the system provides it full access.

The thing is on Vista this doesn't happen, because when Explorer detects this virus; it shuts down as it hasn't been given access rights. Wiping it from the memory... OneCare(and Defender) also have a search&destroy for it.

And you can get malware from anywhere, even trusted sites.
Alright so it's a bigger risk from untrusted sites, but frankly anyone here could've accidentially picked up something; it'll have attached itself to an executable they've uploaded and bam you have it without realising.

UAC has built-in support for both Defender (Anti-Spyware) and OneCare (Anti-Virus), although not perfect solutions they keep you far safer because they only finally allow something rights if it passes security even if you have said that it's safe yourself.

This same functionality is also built-in to Internet/Windows Explorer.

You might see it all as "annoying popups" that are not doing anything, but frankly I doubt you have a clue what goes through your system.

Antidote
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 18:14
OK so at first I wrote a long post about something that I don't care about anymore, and then I decided that enough is enough. You like UAC, I don't, go ahead use it, I won't, there problem solved.

David R
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 18:51
Quote: "Prove it.
Wine wraps Windows calls to the Linux Kernel, those which are incompatible it rebuilds the libraries themselves to use Linux variations.

It's a form of emulation no matter how you look at it."


What have I got to prove - you haven't even answered my question yet


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Raven
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 19:34
Quote: "What have I got to prove - you haven't even answered my question yet"


Well for one, you should backup your claims about it running as fast if not faster than the native windows libraries; because frankly it is emulation.. I don't believe that emulation is ever quicker and even the myths link you posted says several times that you cannot expect the same sort of performance; they only wanted to make it quicker than entire platform emulation, the library performance itself hasn't been a consern.

And you should care because if you're going to preach about how good Wine is despite it being emulated; then you best be ready to defend your claims about it's performance over running something natively on Windows.

Otherwise keep quiet.

Mr Z
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 20:04
Heard there was reports that Photoshop would perform better on wine then on windows. On the other hand I have tried to make several games work without success. So I guess wine has some good and bad sides. However, what I´ve learned, wine creates an "replacements library" to the windows api that is used for the apps or games. This may be an form of emulation, but not the standard one (where instructions are wrapped through the emulator).

Darknes, you haunt me. If I give in, I would be an monster beyond imagining. Light, you guide me. Thanks to you, I see past the nothingness. Life, I choose to live in the light.
ionstream
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 20:32
Quote: "Have you actually used Linux? Understand what you're talking about before you post stuff like this, you just look stupid."


Lol, it was an exaggerated retelling of many, many experiences I've had with compiling software, like KToon, UIRA, Cinepaint, and with drivers like V4L. I'm guessing you've never compiled things yourself? I've had Linux installed as long as I've had Windows XP installed, so 4 years, and for the last 3 years I have been using Gentoo. I know well the ins and outs of Linux, the boot process, KDE, X11, dynamic/static modules, initrd, initscripts, udev, shadow and PAM, the works, and I don't just use nice package managers, mainly because they have outdated versions.

If you can get Wine to work with your game, there's nothing wrong with the speed, although I wouldn't say its faster. It's possible though, depending on the system. But yeah, its not really emulating because the program is still directly calling the dynamic libraries like a native program would, but depending on how functions are implemented on top of X11 would determine the speed of it. Generally though I've had good luck with Wine.

That's not as bad as you think you said.
Raven
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 20:40
Quote: "However, what I´ve learned, wine creates an "replacements library" to the windows api that is used for the apps or games. This may be an form of emulation, but not the standard one (where instructions are wrapped through the emulator)."


Yeah, as I said it's not your traditional style; but realistically it is still emulation.
I'd be surprised if Photoshop shop did work better in Wine, I mean it is possible due to less overhead resources being used; but I don't see how.. I mean Photoshop uses quite a bit of the windows message queue and windows api for the graphical side of things quite extensively.

I know that Photoshop for MacOSX however running on Linux does work a damn sight quicker than on Windows. Could be that you're thinking about.

bitJericho
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 20:47
Semantically it's emulation, but it in theory should run just as fast or faster, in many cases. Because the functions are rewritten for use in linux, I would imagine it would be faster if it was better programmed.

It'd be like porting a program to work on another processor. You rewrite the lowlevel functions to work with the new processor, it's not emulation, it's porting.


The greatest multiplayer text adventure ever...
Raven
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 20:56
Quote: "Semantically it's emulation, but it in theory should run just as fast or faster, in many cases. Because the functions are rewritten for use in linux, I would imagine it would be faster if it was better programmed.

It'd be like porting a program to work on another processor. You rewrite the lowlevel functions to work with the new processor, it's not emulation, it's porting."


It's only porting if they're adapting the original source imo
They're just creating the source based on the final function semantic.

That said I've yet to see a ported peice of software running quicker on another platform. Good example is Photoshop, as it's built for MacOS then ported to Windows; there is a noticeable performance drop. People can chalk that up to the program being slow, but in a similar scenario... Maya is built for Windows then ported to MacOSX and Linux; and is considerably slower.

Even porting wise, performance generally comes in to issue without it becoming an entirely different product under the hood; and most developers never want to take the time to do that. A similar source is easier to work with than something entirely new.

To be honest I don't know why Wine doesn't use ReactOS source-code which is an open-source version of Windows 2000 compatible OS built based on Windows 9x/NT source code (forget which).
Still isn't exactly idea performance or compatibility but is better than Wine (in my experience anyway)

David R
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 20:58 Edited at: 24th Nov 2007 20:59
Quote: "Well for one, you should backup your claims about it running as fast if not faster than the native windows libraries; because frankly it is emulation.. I don't believe that emulation is ever quicker and even the myths link you posted says several times that you cannot expect the same sort of performance; they only wanted to make it quicker than entire platform emulation, the library performance itself hasn't been a consern.

And you should care because if you're going to preach about how good Wine is despite it being emulated; then you best be ready to defend your claims about it's performance over running something natively on Windows.

Otherwise keep quiet."


Great blabber-mouthing Raven, but once again, you've failed to actually answer my original question. If anyone here should 'keep quiet' it should be you

EDIT:
Quote: "To be honest I don't know why Wine doesn't use ReactOS source-code which is an open-source version of Windows"


Wine is very closely linked to ReactOS, but the scenario is actually the opposite way round


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Antidote
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 21:13
Quote: "I'm guessing you've never compiled things yourself?"


Not true my primary Linux distro is Arch. I decided to leave Ubuntu because I wanted something I could learn from, not necessarily something to use daily. Most of the apps that I run I've compiled myself, and yes, to some degree there are times when you're missing one little thing and it drives you crazy trying to figure out what it is. However, the average user, will probably be fine with whatever their distro offers through package management.

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