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Geek Culture / Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs)

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 00:05
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OK I'm a pretty rational guy, and I don't believe in ghosts and spirits and other things, but I do believe in a large universe that is teeming with life of many forms. Everyone's seen all the famous videos of UFOs and we know that most of them are completely fake, but once in a while there comes along one that's very realistic, and above that, most of the evidence comes from clean, sober, and usually quite clever people. So this is it, I believe in aliens, I do also believe it's possible that some could make it to this planet, but I just don't know whether to believe if they actually do.

What do you guys think? Do they really come and spy on us through flying saucers? Or is all this alien stuff just jibberish?

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
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wh1sp3r
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 00:06
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I think, yes .. but Iam afraid, that after ... 100 years, people will be in war with another people from another planet


PS: Real programmers aren't afraid of math!.
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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 00:23 Edited at: 17th Apr 2008 00:24
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Dont know about the ufo part, but the alien part -
Its obvious - you can't say there arent, with so many planets there absolutely have to be more life forms. In a show I watched a while ago a mathamatician calculated that there are at least 10000 races out there that are as smart or smarter than the human race. Scary.

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 00:26
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The fact that life have evolved as far as it has on Earth is amazing. For example: our unusually large moon have saved us from comets and asteroids, it bears the marks of them. And if we believe that our brains evolved because we ate sea food (which I found to be the most believable story), what's the odds of someone else doing so? Our brains requires the fat in fish. The story for why dinosaurs doesn't still roam the planet is that only tiny mammals survived an asteroid blast. We don't even know how long our planet will be hospitable enough for us to live on. Maybe in some other galaxy, there are many of those out there, intelligent life have arisen. I think the odds are quite slim for two in the same galaxy. For them visiting us they must discover inter galaxy travels, like wormholes.

I suggest reading The Science of Discworld, which goes through our evolution from big bang to the future. Skipping the human evolution, compared to the Earth's time line we have barely been here.

[center]
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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 00:29
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Yes, but we only directly know that 8 other planets (7 if you count pluto) can't harvest life. So what we think is miraculous might not be.

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 00:37 Edited at: 17th Apr 2008 00:41
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I've seen a UFO. I have no evidence that it was an other-worldly UFO, but no one I know can identify what it may be from my description and I sure as heck can't and have never seen anything like it since.

Basically this is what happened.

I was sitting around a campfire with a church youth group. I was listening to the youth pastor (if my memory serves me correctly) and was looking at the stars, cause I like to do that. So I was staring and I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me cause a star had just moved and stopped. So I kept watching it, making sure to blink often enough and stay out of direct focus of it so my eyes wouldn't act funny. Sure enough that thing moved again and stopped. It did this 2 more times. After the final stop it did a very smooth 'S' shaped curvy flight behind some trees and I didn't see it again.

Each stop lasted about 5 or so seconds and was abrupt. There was no acceleration or deceleration time. It was moving and then it was not (5 seconds) then it was moving again, full speed.

The light looked like a star, so I assume it was relatively far away. I was probably very lucky to have managed to see it move. I don't know of anyone else who saw it.

Now this is speculation as I have no idea exactly how far away it was, but let's just say it was flying at the height of a passenger airplane at it's peak height. When it traveled it definitely went as fast if not faster than one. So for an object to move that fast with no acceleration time and to stop just as fast I can't picture it being man made, at least not with our understanding of flight and technology. The G forces would shear it (or everyone aboard ) apart. It made no sound so it couldn't be a helicopter and I've never seen a helicopter fly at those assumed altitudes. Satellites orbit, they don't move around and stop and move around again... Experimental craft? Aliens? You decide...

Below is the path the object took as I was watching it in the sky.



|= treeline

So at each corner unil the squiggly before it gets into the trees it stopped for a few seconds and then continued on.

And that's all I have to say

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Tom J
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 00:38 Edited at: 17th Apr 2008 00:45
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My opinion on the matter is that unless aliens can go faster than the speed of light, they can't visit Earth, it's just too far away from them.

^ edit: Same time post hehe, and it seems to conflict with my initial skepticism.
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Pus In Boots
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 00:45
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There are sentient life forms in the universe other than us. Think about it. One planet in one solar system in one freakin' galaxy is home to several million species of animals. It doesn't take a genius to realise that other life forms on other planets is completely assured. Put it in perspective. To another intelligent (and for the sake of simplicty, human-like) species on another planet, we would be seen as the martians. We have space technology that trumps the typical, Hollywood-esque UFO's on strings. We are the most advanced, intelligent species on the planet- just like the supposed 'aliens' that observe us from above. We are predatorial in our nature, destroying species and hunting for leisure rather than survival. On another planet, we would be portrayed as "Predator II" in the film theatres. (You know, where the predator is in New York.)

For the sake of further analysis, Earth is a complex ecosystem that once had single-cell life forms that would evolve and multiply into humans. Other planets would easily allow these cell organisms to evolve in their own ecosystems, shaping the physical properties of the individual species inhabiting the planet. And don't even try to argue that Earth is the ONLY planet that houses cell organisms, as they have been spreading and evolving since the universe' inception. So when you break it down, humanity is the result of a single cell organism that has evolved based on the surrounding environmental properties. There are single cell organisms today that; in a billion years, could be the new humanity. What planet they are on is irrelavent. The truth is undeniable. Aliens exist.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 00:49
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Quote: "It doesn't take a genius to realise that other life forms on other planets is completely assured."

It's not completely assured. Some of us like to think there is life out there, but we just don't know. Chances are, there might be. There's also the chance we're the only planet in the universe with life on.

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wh1sp3r
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 00:49
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Tom J: objects cannot fly faster, that speed of light, because, you need infinite force to move object


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GatorHex
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 00:53
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Yes mathematically there must be other life out there.

No we won't ever meet any because space is expanding and the distances will always be too far to travel

So what did they see. A real UFO will be a USA advanced aircraft. if you think the Stealth Fighters & Bomber were made in 1980 and are set to retire in 2008 they must have come up with some crazy stuff in that 30 year gap



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Grandma
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 00:59 Edited at: 17th Apr 2008 01:02
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Quote: "Yes, but we only directly know that 8 other planets (7 if you count pluto) can't harvest life."


That we know of.

Life (which carries a very broad term) evolves after its envirionment, to fit best into the ecosystem it resides in. Which is why we, as humans wouldn't last that long on our nearest celestial bodies since they are so different from earth in more ways than one.

I never believed that aliens have visited earth, but i'm 100% sure that life exists outside our pathetic solar system. It would be incredibly amazing if it didn't.

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Pus In Boots
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 01:00
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Also, I recall hearing somewhere that the general public is about thirty years behind in terms of knowledge of various technologies. So the military aircraft being manufactured today is thirty years old essentially.

Or something like that.

My point being, UFO-like planes may have the government/military's prior knowledge but the public are oblivious to this. Akthough frankly, UFO sighting just seem like bull anyway. I thought I saw a star blinking, but then realised it was a helicopter or somthing.

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Xenocythe
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 01:11
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I'm sure the human race from another planet has sent advanced flying robots to take pictures of and check out how we aliens are doing.

You haven't taken into account that the other race's across the universe have different perspectives. We're the aliens too.

As far as you know, the human race in another galaxy on another planet looks much different that our humans. Evolution isn't that simple; I'm sure other human races out there have evolved differently. Hell, you have no reason to doubt that mermaids and mermans exist.

The way I see it, if any of these end of the world conspiracies are true, the greater, more evolved, and higher human races out there that are keeping watch on us will have to make a choice whether or not they wanna save some of us lowly humans and let us seek refuge in their alternate universe.

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 01:17 Edited at: 17th Apr 2008 01:18
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I find it very unfair that everyone can freely talk of their evolutionary views while I cannot make any comments on creationist and spiritual views for fear of starting an argument and / or breaking the AUP

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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 01:21 Edited at: 17th Apr 2008 01:22
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I never saw a ufo, but I wont argue with you dink.

Yes, you can't argue about life being out there. Being able to visit it, however, is another thing.

This conversation will get pretty rediculous.
Even at light speed, it would take way to long to get there. Thats why we humans are/are going to study wormholes. How these would work is like bending time.
Take a piece of paper and put a dot at each end. These are 2 cities across the earth. Now, open the wormhole by folding the paper so the 2 dots are right on top of eachother, and poke a hole through it.
See, with that there is no limit to how far we can travel. It just needs to be made.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 01:23 Edited at: 17th Apr 2008 01:24
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I'd like to point out that when I say life I don't mean the official definition of it, where is has to be able to metabolise and reproduce, etc. If we try to predict life outside our own planet that has to match all these factors then I guess the chances are probably pretty low, but I'm sure it's possible to have life and conciousness in different ways.

That leads me to talk about Digital Awakening's post. Most of it may be true (though I don't believe the Moon bit - if anything, the Earth would save things from hitting the moon, just like the Sun and Jupiter do for the rest of the Solar System). Even if we did get the brains we do from eating sea-food, I'm sure other species of aliens can develop in their own ways, and possibly be smarter than us. For all we know we could be relatively dumb compared to some.

Quote: "
My opinion on the matter is that unless aliens can go faster than the speed of light, they can't visit Earth, it's just too far away from them.
"


Well, the universe is 15 billion years old. Earth is 5 billion years old, which means we had 5 billion years to get to the stage we are now (being able to achieve space flight). Add a couple of hundred years and essentially we are still talking about 5 billion years, but our technology would be vastly improved - possibly enough to be able to travel for any amount of time we want by having an ecosystem within the ships. With this, how far could we travel in, say, 5 billion years? The Milky Way alone is about 100 million lightyears across (IIRC), so we could explore a good deal or this.

So think about it.. Perhaps 5 billion years into the birth of the universe there was a planet born. 5 billion years later a species was able to explore space for an indefinite amount of time. Within the next 5 billion years they could reach many other planets.


[edit]

Quote: "I find it very unfair that everyone can freely talk of their evolutionary views while I cannot make any comments on creationist and spiritual views for fear of starting an argument and / or breaking the AUP "


I know you're not breaking the AUP in saying this, but please don't bring it up. Who knows what it could spark.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 01:24 Edited at: 17th Apr 2008 01:24
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If we don't get struck by a huge asteroid first. Hence "space race".

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Chris K
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 01:32
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Quote: "Yes mathematically there must be other life out there."


Hi, sorry, this is not true.

You could say that there is probably life out there (I am not sure if that is right either.)

I am fairly sure that there are not an infinite number of stars (not positive), but even if there were, that would not guarantee life.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 01:34 Edited at: 17th Apr 2008 01:58
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Have it your (spelling correction) way - there is a
99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999
999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
999999999999999999999999999999999999999% chance that there is life out there besides us. (this is most likely a reallistic number anyway)

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Benjamin
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 01:35
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Have it you are way?

I don't think that's a realistic number.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 01:36
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Quote: "I am fairly sure that there are not an infinite number of stars (not positive), but even if there were, that would not guarantee life."


I'm pretty sure it would... But yeah, there are a limited amount of stars, because there is only a limited amount of energy and mass in the universe.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
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Chris K
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 01:41
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No, that's not true, there is not necessarily a 99.9% chance of life either.

It's like saying, there are an infinite amount of numbers, so there must be more than one eleven right?!? I mean, you know, somewhere out there on the number line, there's another eleven yeah???

What if stars get smaller and colder the further away from Earth you go, or the density of some as yet unknown radiation increases rapidly?

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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puppyofkosh
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 01:43 Edited at: 17th Apr 2008 01:49
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Okay, here is my opinion.

EDITeleted, I didn't want to do anything against the AUP by talking about creationism or evolution or how the world was made etc. My apologies.


Thats just my opinion. Sorry if any of that info was wrong or outdated.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 01:47
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Quote: "It's like saying, there are an infinite amount of numbers, so there must be more than one eleven right?!? I mean, you know, somewhere out there on the number line, there's another eleven yeah???"


Yes, but if you have an infinite number of stones more than one will be grey. You can't use numbers because there is only one of each number.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 01:49
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i ve seen a ufo once me and my buddies were drinking and smoking when this big flying sauser with flashy lights came down the street and stopped near us, aliens came out of it and started loudly making noises at us (their own language perhaps) we first greeted them, said Welcome to planet earth martians. but they werent as peaceful as we thought so we started running but they abducted us. And put us to sleep. then they probobly did all kinds of experiments with us because after i woke up in my bed, i had a bunch of bruses and my wrists hurt.

so there, aliens DO exist!

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
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Agent Dink
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 01:54
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Can anyone possibly explain my first post in this thread? I'm very curious if any of you can actually prove what I saw (whether it be alien or human) with other stories or info about human craft capable of doing what I described.

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Chris K
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 01:55
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Yes, in a set of infinite numbers, there is only one eleven.

Why is this weirder than there being only one life-bearing planet in the (not even) infinite collection of planets in the universe?

Quote: "Yes, but if you have an infinite number of stones more than one will be grey."


Not true!
Based on what?!

This is like saying, if you have an infinite amount of numbers, there must be at least one that is a multiple of 3.

What about the set of prime numbers bigger than 5? Infinite, and no multiples of three.

It is perfectly easy to see that you could have an infinite number of stones and not have a grey one.

------

My point is, the fact that the universe is infinite is not proof in itself that there is life out there. It could be that throughout the whole universe, except say a 100 million light year sphere around Earth, there is lots and lots of mega-deadly uber-rays that make life impossible.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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Xenocythe
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 01:57
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You were drinking and smoking?

I'm sure there's many other explanations for the bruises and hurting wrists.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 01:59
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Quote: "I'm sure there's many other explanations for the bruises and hurting wrists."

I'm pretty sure he was joking.

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DB PROgrammer
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 02:00
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@Chris K
Beat down! I completly agree.

@PAGAN
Lol!

@Agent Dink
I have heard somone say somthing similar to that before.


I'm Pro grammer.
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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 02:00
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Maybe that was the beer.


@chris k
Just try and comprehend how big the universe is. Earth to the universe is like a molecule to our solar system in size.
Being a life-giving planet isn't as unique as being a number. It's entirely possible.

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Chris K
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 02:03
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Yeah, I'd even say it was likely, but it is nowhere near definite, even with the infinity of space.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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Agent Dink
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 02:03
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Quote: "@Agent Dink
I have heard somone say somthing similar to that before.
"


I actually know someone else who has seen very similar things as well. They don't have any explanation for it more than I do

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 02:07
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Chris K, obviously it can't be definite until we can prove it, but hey, out of the 8 planets we know 1 of them has life

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Chris K
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 02:14
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Quote: "obviously it can't be definite until we can prove it"


WTF that's not what you were saying!

You were saying that it was definite because Space is infinite.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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Jeku
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 02:25 Edited at: 17th Apr 2008 02:29
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I agree with Chris K.

According to the mathematical laws of probability, the chance that life could just "happen" without anything before it, i.e. an entire cell with its thousands of complex machines all relying on dozens of things to work simultaneously (i.e. not one-at-a-time, but a complete set at a time), is already past the point of being mathematically probable.

To do this even twice is past the point of being mathematically probable. Thousands of times across the galaxy? No chance.

If you look it up there is a threshold you pass where something is so remotely possible that it becomes mathematically not possible.

And you can't just say "with enough time" and it will all make sense. With enough time will tornados on a distant planet fully form a PC? No.


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 02:28
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Quote: "You were saying that it was definite because Space is infinite."

No, I said space wasn't infinite.

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 02:35
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I often times wonder how it could happen even once? Hmm...


Right.

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Samoz83
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 02:43
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well we don't know if it is or if space isn't infinite, but i believe there is a very high probability of other life considering apparently there is about 1 billion stars in the milky way and there are something like 3,000 galaxies been seen by the HST, with predictions as high as 500 billion galaxies in the universe and then there could be multiply universes. So surly that gives a very high probability does it not?

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Chenak
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 02:47 Edited at: 17th Apr 2008 02:48
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I would say that it is extremly likely that life exists outside on earth, life exists even in the harshest conditions of earth so it's not hard for me to imagine single celled organisms on another planet somewhere. Didn't they find proof of bacteria existing on mars a while back?

Intelligent life out there who can build computers maybe not so likely I've always been interested to find out, but that won't happen in any of our life times I think.
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Satchmo
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 02:53
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Quote: "With enough time will tornados on a distant planet fully form a PC? "


With enough time....


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Benjamin
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 02:56
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Quote: "And you can't just say "with enough time" and it will all make sense. With enough time will tornados on a distant planet fully form a PC? No."

That's a good analogy.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 03:02
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Quote: "I would say that it is extremly likely that life exists outside on earth, life exists even in the harshest conditions of earth so it's not hard for me to imagine single celled organisms on another planet somewhere. Didn't they find proof of bacteria existing on mars a while back? "

Good point. IIRC they are called 'extremophiles'.. However, they say that this bacteria they found was actually just funny shaped rock, not fossils, but that doesn't disprove the existance of life elsewhere.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
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Jeku
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 03:07
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Quote: "Didn't they find proof of bacteria existing on mars a while back? "


Nope. Believe me, if they found bacteria on another planet, that would prove 100% that there's life outside of Earth. That has not been proved yet.


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Samoz83
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 03:10 Edited at: 17th Apr 2008 03:11
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they "may" of found fossilised alien bacteria on a meteorite

EDIT i didn't read it but this is about mars
: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1190948.stm

www.firelightstudio.co.uk
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puppyofkosh
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 03:39
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well, look at Europa, it has water inside of it, maybe...just maybe.
Also, there could be multiple universes, assuming cosmic inflation started the universe...I think...

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Jeku
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 03:47 Edited at: 17th Apr 2008 03:48
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Quote: "well, look at Europa, it has water inside of it, maybe...just maybe."


And water means what, exactly? Like I said, the chance of a random single-cell organism appearing from nothing, with thousands of parts that rely on one another (i.e. not supported by Evolution's small changes principles) is mathematically impossible.

How it happened on Earth is something we are not allowed to discuss by the AUP. But one can not say with confidence that scientifically, just because there's water, life is inevitable. It doesn't work that way.


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 03:54
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I say that we avoid debates about the origins of life, not that I am opposed to them, but it's against the AUP.

Call me crazy, but I think we are all mature enough to discuss it in an organised manner just like we can debate other things - just a thought

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
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DB PROgrammer
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Posted: 17th Apr 2008 04:04
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Quote: "I often times wonder how it could happen even once? Hmm...


Right."


Total true


I'm Pro grammer.
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