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Geek Culture / A load of hooha?

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 23rd May 2008 12:46
I keep watching these documentaries on space, quantum physics, scientific theories etc. out of interest and sometimes I sit there and think, "what they say proves nothing, they making this up, jumping to conclusions based on small things." Einstein made a lot of theories, some of which have been proven by scientists, such as the black hole. But when scientists start talking about wormholes it sounds too science-fiction and they're making all of these assumptions based on an equation and conclusion Einstein came up with, just because the man's a genius doesn't make it true. And how can they know so much about a 'wormhole' when they don't even know one exists.

And I wonder how they 'know' so much about black holes anyway? There are plenty of images out there proving their effects and what they do and even what quasars do and the different types - but when they talk about 3 battling blackholes that they 'found' which consisted of 3 spots that were unclear and didn't show much in my eyes. How can these scientist 'know' such things, when they fail to convince me when watching them speak that they're not jumping to conclusions.

Of course, my science qualifications stopped at GCSEs, but I don't consider myself an idiot, but what light can people shine on the knowledge of such schools of science? It seems to be walking to much into theory in my eyes. And I'm sure it isn't the scientists trying to dumb it down and miss out important bits that tie things together, if there are bits I'm missing, perhaps there are better explanations than the scientists saying their bits on television?

Perhaps somebody more scientific could shed light on such things - or perhaps turn this into a discussion.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Oolite
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Posted: 23rd May 2008 13:38
I watch a lot of these programs and i must stress that most of the things that are discussed within them are just theories and if this theory were true, how it would work. Most of them are really interesting but you must choose to whether to believe them or not.

Like, i watched this one about the Atom and it said that 98(or some figure like that) percent of the inside of an atom is empty space...
...so whats stopping the earth collapsing into itself?

Think about it...

flashing snall
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Posted: 23rd May 2008 13:49
haha, i know. im still having a hard time beleiving that time dialtion is possible. My teachers lecture made it so clear, but yu when you stop and think... how can time be slower over there JUST because somthing is moving really fast?!


This is my WIP, not even ready for a WIP thread yet though.http://smallgroupproductions.com/
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 23rd May 2008 13:55 Edited at: 23rd May 2008 14:00
I'd rather hear some kind of evidence before thinking, 'hey, this is how it could be', I've grown up with the stress that science is meant to prove things to be true or false, if you have scientists believing in scientific theory rather than confirming it, then is it no different to philosophy and religion? I'm sure theories, or better hypothesises need to be made before proving something and this seems to be true for Einstein and black holes.

But the topic of black holes now seems less theory and more jumping to conclusions, or at least from the evidence presented to me - how can one say that 3 blacks holes battle it off, one is thrown off whilst two others fight and merge, when your evidence is 3 light spots on an image that doesn't show much in terms of detail?

If these are all just theories, then why do these scientists consider them fact, if they simply believe them based on how they see it without the concrete evidence to suggest it, then isn't that a problem? They could well be proven wrong and I don't think you can jump to conclusions based on equations and theories when talking science - surely you need the evidence to support it? At least from the perception I was given of science and seem to receive from others when talking philosophy.


Quote: "haha, i know. im still having a hard time beleiving that time dialtion is possible. My teachers lecture made it so clear, but yu when you stop and think... how can time be slower over there JUST because somthing is moving really fast?!"


Yes, this is another one that gets me, and the idea that gravity effects time, when using an atomic clock it slowed when moving away? Do astronauts experience any time speed changes - I mean if a clock is effected by time, then surely other things can too, or is it gravity that effects the clock itself?

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Agent Dink
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Posted: 23rd May 2008 14:03
'Science' is a lot of bullcrap cause they have to cover up for how little they really know.



revenant chaos
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Posted: 23rd May 2008 14:24
Quote: " how can time be slower over there JUST because somthing is moving really fast?!"


since time is a dimention, you must have velocity to traverse it (not through space, but along whatever axis time is oriented) . nothing may exceed 186,000 miles per second, which is the speed of light. an object at rest passes through time at the speed of light.

lets say we have 2 cubes positioned at 0,0,0. the first cube's rotation is 0,0,0 , but the second cube's rotation is 0,45,0. now we move both cubes a distance of one unit. the first cube moves only on the Z axis (which is the time dimention for the sake of this topic), while the second moves on X and Z. any movement along the X axis diverts movement from the time dimention to a spacial dimention.

so in short, speed of time=186,000mps-velocity in any other direction.
The Nerd
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Posted: 23rd May 2008 15:09 Edited at: 23rd May 2008 15:27
Quote: "'Science' is a lot of bullcrap cause they have to cover up for how little they really know"


Science don't have to cover up anything It's just trying to understand how things around us work... why would you need to cover anything up when you're just just building theories on subjects you exaclty know what is yet? I mean it's this kind of curiosity that has led us to most modern things we have today. So I don't know what exaclty you mean when you say they cover up for how little they know.

Oh and if science is a lot of bullcrap then why has it helped in things like all the kind of diseases we're able to cure today And basically most of the modern world we live in today, atleast it've proven itself useful to most of that.

Why would they have to cover up anything? It's better to be curios and research than to do nothing at all. Well atleast in my oppinion.

Of course some theories made will just be a load of hooha But hey, we're only humans Can't be right everytime.



tha_rami
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Posted: 23rd May 2008 15:37 Edited at: 23rd May 2008 15:40
Actually, Black Holes aren't real neither. They're a theory as well, and there are alternative theories as black matter stars and many others. Actually, some of them sound quite feasible. However, Black Holes form accretion discs, discs of matter - their size indicates whatever the object in the middle is. We cannot see a black hole, but we can see what they suck up.

I understood that gravity, in fact, is a small deformation of time. I've got no idea about the details, but it sounded plausible when I researched it a little.

For most of these things, the mechanics of them are so advanced that besides guessing there's not much we can do. Things are theories because they're the most likely hypothesises.


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Zappo
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Posted: 23rd May 2008 15:46
The way science works is through theories. You see something happen, and then try to come up with a theory as to why. Then you try to prove that theory with different experiments or observations. Eventually you hope to have a theory which isn't disproved by any event.
Everything you consider to be absolutely 'true' is just a theory which hasn't been disproven and is generally accepted. It is still a theory though.


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Chenak
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Posted: 23rd May 2008 16:11
Many documentations are there to "entertain" and don't contain all workings where they found their conclusions. A scientist rarely states "theories" as solid fact and are quite happy to debate and change their minds if you can come up with a sound scientific theory that makes sense.
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Posted: 23rd May 2008 16:13
Quote: "Like, i watched this one about the Atom and it said that 98(or some figure like that) percent of the inside of an atom is empty space...
...so whats stopping the earth collapsing into itself?"


If this is false then why can a gas be compressed or condensed into a liquid? The molecules will be closer together when liquid than gas, and yes most of the space in an atom is empty, the bulk of it is the electron's orbit(s).

Quote: "how can one say that 3 blacks holes battle it off, one is thrown off whilst two others fight and merge, when your evidence is 3 light spots on an image that doesn't show much in terms of detail?"


You could observe their mass, velocity and position, with this you can predict what they have done and will do with some degree of accuracy. And you could see that one gets thrown off, much like asteroids and such get thrown around planets like Jupiter, and that the remaining 2 cannot escape their gravity, so will eventually collide/merge/fight.

Quote: "Yes, this is another one that gets me, and the idea that gravity effects time, when using an atomic clock it slowed when moving away? Do astronauts experience any time speed changes - I mean if a clock is effected by time, then surely other things can too, or is it gravity that effects the clock itself?"


Astronauts in orbit of Earth, unless moving very fast should experience events slightly faster than their counterparts on Earth, due to space-time being more warped on the surface, however the difference is very insignificant so you'd need an atomic clock to easily see the difference. The same can be done if you place a clock on a mountain peak and one at sea level, after a while you will notice a difference.

And Zappo is correct, without theories we'd still be in the stone age .

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 23rd May 2008 20:38
Quote: "Astronauts in orbit of Earth, unless moving very fast should experience events slightly faster than their counterparts on Earth, due to space-time being more warped on the surface, however the difference is very insignificant so you'd need an atomic clock to easily see the difference. The same can be done if you place a clock on a mountain peak and one at sea level, after a while you will notice a difference."


I can't seem to grasp that. We perceive time, because 'things have happened' and 'there are things that are yet to happen' and even if I consider determinism and causality, where one thing causes another thing to happen and there is really no choice and that it is an illusion (it seems a determinist would argue that a moral action would be 'made' because of the different causes leading up to the decision, such as things taught, emotions involved etc.) then what suggests that time physically exists and that it's not some analogy to explain what we've done and what we're going to do?

Of course the Atomic clock may point in the direction that time exists, but could it not also be argued that energy is effected by gravity? If the energy flowing in the clock making it work is slower than it would be with more gravity.




Quote: "You could observe their mass, velocity and position, with this you can predict what they have done and will do with some degree of accuracy. And you could see that one gets thrown off, much like asteroids and such get thrown around planets like Jupiter, and that the remaining 2 cannot escape their gravity, so will eventually collide/merge/fight."


Maybe, perhaps the scientist wasn't very clear on their reasons - "As you can see here" [shows unclear image of 3 bright dots]. There was probably more to it than that, perhaps I was being foolish - but with what I saw, nothing suggested the sort.


Quote: "Everything you consider to be absolutely 'true' is just a theory which hasn't been disproven and is generally accepted. It is still a theory though."


Indeed, I could agree with that, I usually coin the expression "interpretation of reality is subjective", but if something scientific is put forth, shouldn't there be enough evidence before suggesting otherwise. A theory is a theory, yes, but I've received the impression (no matter how right or wrong) that these scientists interviewed that they take them as a conclusion - as opposed something to hypothesise and test. Though I suppose it seems fairly obvious with things like the particle accelerator being built that certain theories are attempting to provide such evidence. Perhaps I'm either misinterpreting the scientists, or the scientists being interviewed are misrepresenting the theories.

Quote: "
Quote: "'Science' is a lot of bullcrap cause they have to cover up for how little they really know"

Science don't have to cover up anything It's just trying to understand how things around us work... why would you need to cover anything up when you're just just building theories on subjects you exaclty know what is yet"


I think you'll find Agent Dink was cracking a joke.


Quote: "Many documentations are there to "entertain" and don't contain all workings where they found their conclusions. A scientist rarely states "theories" as solid fact and are quite happy to debate and change their minds if you can come up with a sound scientific theory that makes sense."


I wouldn't say some of the ones I watch have that 'entertainment' factor, I hate those - they mostly seem to be there to teach you things about a topic, it could be a flaw in the documentaries and the scientists couldn't explain things properly and chose simplistic versions, but my response was mostly 'how does that explain what you just said?' I suppose being part of the questioning heuristic sort isn't being a part of their target audience. Though not understanding what they say, I'd hope they'd explain it enough to make sense.

In that case, any recommendations to resources that clearly explain the sciences?

Perhaps I should become more educated on the matter?

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
The Nerd
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Posted: 23rd May 2008 21:02
Quote: "I think you'll find Agent Dink was cracking a joke."


I'm so terrible at getting these kinds of things *sigh*

bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd May 2008 21:07
Quote: "then what suggests that time physically exists and that it's not some analogy to explain what we've done and what we're going to do?

Of course the Atomic clock may point in the direction that time exists, but could it not also be argued that energy is effected by gravity? If the energy flowing in the clock making it work is slower than it would be with more gravity. "


The atomic clock could be affected by less gravity, however, I think it's believed to be affected by time because we can predict how far off the clock will be by using speed as a variable.

As for determinism and all that mumbo jumbo, how would that be affected by a person travelling relatively faster than other people?

He's still in existance, you can see him riding atop his mountain if you check him out through a telescope. However, he's experiencing time physically and in actuality slower than you are.

If he were going near the speed of light, you'd see him whiz by and that'd be that. Then he would turn around, come back, and you'd have been dead for 10 thousand years.

If he were to break the speed of light, you would be moving in reverse, and he would point and laugh, and you'd be all like, "!gnihgaul pots ,yeH"


Hurray for teh logd!
bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd May 2008 21:19
Quote: "Perhaps I'm either misinterpreting the scientists, or the scientists being interviewed are misrepresenting the theories. "


If you were to listen to a scientist explain how they decide something to be the case, you'd be very bored.

It's akin to a bunch of dudes sitting in a room shooting the breeze. They come up with some hypotheses and then test em out. They then become theories.

A theory is proven, and a hypothesis is a guess.

http://physics.suite101.com/article.cfm/theory_vs__hypothesis_vs__law

There's an interesting article, perhaps if Newton were around in our day and came up with these ideas, we'd call them theories now instead of laws.

Laws cannot be broken, that's why something like, darwin's theory, can't be a law, because we can't go back to the beginning of life on Earth and check out whether we were created by a giant dude in a white robe or from slime.

However, at the same time, creationism couldn't be a theory because it can't be tested, so it's simply a hypothesis. (At least, as far as I comprehend without being a scientist)

So when creationists say "Hey, our theory's as good as yours" you can say, "nuh uh, ours has been tested and confirmed to be the case in many many experiments".

Now, that being said, creationist could ultimately be right, and darwin's theory could just be an odd quirk in the workings of biology that some creator slapped on us to help us live with the times, since it's not something science can test.

Anyway, let's not debate who's right in that argument, as I was just using it as an example of the differences between a hypothesis and a theory.

So, now that I've broken the number 1 rule on the AUP, I shall rest my case.


Hurray for teh logd!
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Posted: 23rd May 2008 22:18
Once you actually get to understand the reasoning that they use (and this is when you listen over and over till you actually understand ) it makes perfect sense how it all works. Some of it doesn't conform to the reality that we are used to, but why should it? How can we trust everything we see? Atleast when these theories are put to the test they seem to work, and never (yet) break down.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th May 2008 01:45
Well, in that case - any recommended reading? Websites, books, you know the lot. I'm obviously approaching it in the wrong frame of mind, so please nobody suggest "Science for Dummies" or I'm slapping them with a kipper.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
puppyofkosh
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Posted: 24th May 2008 02:20
A brief history of time. Good book by Hawking...

revenant chaos
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Posted: 24th May 2008 02:21
you should read "The elegant universe", and "Fabric of the cosmos" by Brian Greene. they are books about string theory (actually M-theory you come to find out), but they cover classical physics as well without boring you with all kinds of physics equations. They are written very well, and offer multiple examples to really get the reader to understand without any prior knowledge.
tha_rami
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Posted: 24th May 2008 03:57
I'd really, really recommend the book:

"A short history of nearly everything" by Bill Byrson. Not only does it explain a lot of stuff, it also does so in a clear way without being incomplete. It really should be obliged reading for everyone, as it is one of the best books I've ever read. Plus, the price is fair at 20 pounds for the illustrated version. Really, it's pretty much the only book I recommend to the curious of mind that want to understand... well, nearly everything. Do grab the illustrated version - it's far, far better.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Short-History-Nearly-Everything/dp/0385609612 - You were in the UK, right?


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bitJericho
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Posted: 24th May 2008 04:54
The cosmos tv series narrated by carl sagan is a must see


Hurray for teh logd!
Mr Makealotofsmoke
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Posted: 24th May 2008 04:55 Edited at: 24th May 2008 04:57
just build a rocket and fly into a black hole....see what happens

well from physics i learnt....

When entering a black hole time slows down, and eventually it stops, so im guessing the hole is black because time has stoped before it has entered the area so the expansion of the universe hasnt gotten to the hole hole as there is no time there. But it could also be that light cant escape (most logical).

Think about this. If the big bang happend, how did it happen when there was no time? How does a bang happen in no time? The universe is weird....

Maybe we all are AI in a computer program lol
the DB Universe

ALSO: in star wars, when they go light speed time should stop, so how do they turn it back off if they are frozen in time??


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tha_rami
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Posted: 24th May 2008 13:26
Isn't time relative and stuff - so that they would percieve it as being normal?

I wondered about the 'in no place, in no time' scenario of the big bang, yeah.

Black Holes, by the way, aren't black. They're invisible.


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Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 24th May 2008 16:04
I also recommend A Short History of Nearly Everything. It's informative and easy to read. I tried reading a Brief History of Time but stopped half way through. I'm not equipped to talk about spontaneous matter and antimatter appearing and then annihilating each other just outside a black hole...

Quote: "Like, i watched this one about the Atom and it said that 98(or some figure like that) percent of the inside of an atom is empty space...
...so whats stopping the earth collapsing into itself?"

Imagine you have a football field. In the middle is a ball (this is the Nucleus of the atom). Electrons (about the size of a pea) whizz round the Nucleus (ball) in set orbits. (Yeah, they're also waves but that's just confusing in this instance.) So you have the nucleus in the middle with a lot of empty space between it and its electrons which go round in orbits. Now, when two atoms move close to each other, they DO NOT actually touch. It's not the physical contact between atoms that stops them sort of blending together. Instead, they repel each other due to electromagnetic forces (like two magnets repelling).

Back on topic - Yes, a lot of theories are difficult to prove at the moment. However, I've always thought that the strongest aspect of scientific theory is that science is always ready to admit it was wrong, and to try and find another theory. That way, we ought to end up getting closer to "the truth" (whatever that is )

I'm not actually a Kiwi, I just randomly thought it up one day.
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Posted: 24th May 2008 16:11 Edited at: 24th May 2008 16:13
Quote: "ALSO: in star wars, when they go light speed time should stop, so how do they turn it back off if they are frozen in time??"


Well, they would feel like they are moving in real time. To them, nothing else would be moving, and according to Einstein, it would be correct to say that nothing is moving, yet it would also be correct to say it is moving to those who don't move at the speed of light - both are correct at the same time. Crazy stuff, but it makes sense when you read up about it.

Anyway, it may seem like a load of jibberish because we are so used to our version of reality, but in order to get closer to the truth you gotta be open minded about it

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th May 2008 16:50
Also, as I'm a cheapskate student, any websites? I'll probably pick up those books next week when I either go down to London or Cambridge (as it's my birthday next week, woohoo, money! ) though I do have plenty of other books to read through - such as The Origins of the British (DNA evidence of the history from the earliest settlers to the Saxons) and other really interesting books.

Quote: "ALSO: in star wars, when they go light speed time should stop, so how do they turn it back off if they are frozen in time??"


It's Star Wars, where fire can burn without oxygen and ships can fall without gravity.


Quote: "Maybe we all are AI in a computer program lol
the DB Univers"


You've spent too much time locked up in your room programming, if I were you get some fresh air - sometimes it can get to you... it's scary when you look at a tree and only think of its polygons.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
BatVink
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Posted: 24th May 2008 18:00
Quote: "I also recommend A Short History of Nearly Everything"


Yes, a must read book. Or in my case, audio book. It's 18 hours long, and fascinating.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th May 2008 18:35
It seems inevitable then, I have to buy that book.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Agent Dink
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Posted: 25th May 2008 02:51
Quote: "I think you'll find Agent Dink was cracking a joke."


LOL, actually I wasn't. I mean, ok. They DO know alot, but there's so much speculation passed around as fact these days.

The Nerd
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Posted: 25th May 2008 04:07
Quote: "
LOL, actually I wasn't. I mean, ok. They DO know alot, but there's so much speculation passed around as fact these days."


yay, so it wasn't me misunderstanding a joke this time! My day is saved!

tha_rami
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Posted: 25th May 2008 04:11
If speculation is supported through accepted theories, I consider them valid theories until proven otherwise. I don't think you'll ever find a scientist pass something untrue on as fact. Only if a theory is proven, it is a fact.


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 25th May 2008 04:18
I think a scientist would know better than to speculate something and accept it as true. If it seems to work in practice, you can use it, whether it is true or not. Either way, they're not just made up for fun and passed around as they are - that would be really unprofessional.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
revenant chaos
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Posted: 25th May 2008 05:08
Quote: "If the big bang happend, how did it happen when there was no time? How does a bang happen in no time?"


That is a good question. I'm not sure, but mabey it is because the arrow of time is defined by entropy. Entropy is the amount of disorder within a given system, or the number of ways that disorder can occur without any noticable difference. according to thermodynamics (I think the second or third law) the entropy within a given system will constantly increase, that is if it hasn't reached is max already. The big bang would have caused the universe's entropy to skyrocket and possibly giving birth to time.
Mr Makealotofsmoke
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Posted: 25th May 2008 10:29
or maybe there was a universe b4 this 1, and it began to collapse onto itself and it got to a tiny dot and rebanged.....


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th May 2008 12:38
Quote: "Quote: "I think you'll find Agent Dink was cracking a joke."

LOL, actually I wasn't. I mean, ok. They DO know alot, but there's so much speculation passed around as fact these days."


Amusing, normally it's the other way round. But yes, speculation is probably a good word for what I've seen, but I suppose a bit of reading will be need to see how far these speculations are justified and how much is just reading too much into something - the wormhole idea to me at this moment in time that it's too much of a speculations based on a bunch of mathematical calculations - but I suppose you never know until you look it up.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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Posted: 25th May 2008 13:58
About the Big Bang - well, it happened at the very start of time. It wasn't like it was waiting around or anything: the universe expanded, and time started rolling, at the same time. (I think Einstein or somebody came up with the idea that space can't exist without time and vice versa - it's to do with that, I think.)

However, what caused this to happen (or, indeed, whether or not the laws of cause and effect have any relevance at that point in the history of the universe) is anyone's guess.

I'm not actually a Kiwi, I just randomly thought it up one day.
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Posted: 25th May 2008 14:53
^ Theoretically, mind you ^

Zotoaster
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Posted: 25th May 2008 15:51
When you get right down to it, there's no way to find out what happened at the beginning of the universe without speculation based on mathematical calculations, and having to explore all areas.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
tha_rami
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Posted: 25th May 2008 16:01 Edited at: 25th May 2008 16:03
Actually, there's no way to figure that out at all, I think. We can't go beyond t = 0, I guess, and it appears everything until now crashes at t = 3 or something. For me, the expansion of the universe is enough to believe in the Big Bang, but what (or who) caused that is probably going to remain a mystery forever.

@Seppuku:
Quote: "And how can they know so much about a 'wormhole' when they don't even know one exists."

Take a look at the Periodic System. Many of those had been 'predicted' through theories before they were actually found.


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 25th May 2008 16:06
tha_rami, the only real way to find out is to try. There have been many stumbling blocks over the years, and they have got over them.

As for the start of the universe, there have been many theories, but it's too early to test them as of yet, but they sound surprisingly plausible. For example, some guy said it was possible that a universe which has the right constants to make black holes could create new universes from those black holes. So the ones that are able to create new universes get to continue "reproducing", and the ones that don't, don't. I don't know what to believe yet, though.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
tha_rami
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Posted: 25th May 2008 16:40
The most convincing thing I heard is that time restarted at the moment time 'died' - so, that the singularity had actually just collapsed and immediately started expanding again, recycling everything to this new universe. That'd also explain 'us', as its a mathematical certainty that if you do something random enough times, you'll get the correct answer sooner or later.


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 25th May 2008 16:48
That works too I think. I think no matter how you put it, you're probably gonna get something involving an infinite amount of universes, but since there is (probably) no external time to bind them together, I can't think of a suitable way of there being a 'first' universe.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th May 2008 17:28
I suppose mathematics can go far in suggesting things and in some case appear to be true with certain discoveries, I mean a lot of what a genius scientists or philosophers have come to observe and work out can be proven to a certain extent, but I wouldn't necessarily get my hopes up on there being wormholes or anything like that based on Einstein being right about blackholes etc. as there probably is a margin of error in mathematics as the universe may not be completely mathematically logical. And of course there's probably more (or less) to black holes than one may predict.

But then I suppose the whole area is grey and we follow up with whatever is availible to us and find ways to explain things as man always has done.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 25th May 2008 19:51
Quote: "So the ones that are able to create new universes get to continue "reproducing""

I read a book called Cosm which had that kind of plot. A scientist accidentally created a little universe. By the end of the book she had formulated a theory of universe natural selection: some universes have the right conditions to allow life to develop, and some don't. The ones that do eventually end up having life make new universes until somewhere down the line you presumably get near-perfect universes. While it's fiction and unprovable, it is a nice idea.

Quote: "tha_rami, the only real way to find out is to try."

Very true - and the sooner we figure out how to make universes in a lab or whatever, the better. But until that time, it doesn't hurt to think up a load of hypotheses which might then be applied to real-world experiments.

Quote: "^ Theoretically, mind you ^"

Also true!

I'm not actually a Kiwi, I just randomly thought it up one day.
5Louiz
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Posted: 25th May 2008 22:14 Edited at: 25th May 2008 22:34
Science is trial and error. Comparison between what is known and what is unknown but could be true. Science is speculation, inquietude. If we are not capable of speculating, we are not capable of reaching answers. Answers never appear magically like most of the men think. The story of the atom is an example:



The things about Earth being spherical, about it not being the centre of the universe.. How many people were lynched for defending these "profan theories"?

So this is science? Most of the physics equations were reached via trial and error. One foundation of the physics is that there is almost nothing we can be sure about. When one is not satisfied with the provided answers, one starts philosophizing, researching or just ignores the existence of questions. The last behaviour is adopted by ninety nine per cent of humanity. Things are comfortable the way they are. We did not even need to invent shoes, computers and toothbrushes. Really. We did not need.

Quote: "(I think Einstein or somebody came up with the idea that space can't exist without time and vice versa - it's to do with that, I think.)"

Quote: ""If the big bang happend, how did it happen when there was no time? How does a bang happen in no time?""


Einstein said that the the only reason for the existence of the time is so that everything does not happen at once. That is brilliant. Time represents the instability of the matter. Matter expands and distorts time. Shall stop here..

Quote: "When you get right down to it, there's no way to find out what happened at the beginning of the universe without speculation based on mathematical calculations, and having to explore all areas."


That is not the only thing that will never be proven true or false and accepted by everybody. Some things are simply unreachable, my person thinks.

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