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FPSC Classic Models and Media / Planar Projected Character Shadows - Teaser

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2010 23:12 Edited at: 23rd Aug 2010 23:15
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Quote: "Yes unfortunately that seems to be the case now - it will flip distractingly, and often appear "wrong" because of light averaging. Coming from an abstract "top-down" direction looks the most correct, so I'm going with that. But there are controls to control shadow dilation and skew/stretch as well."


Thats absolutely fine. I agree the top down look is perfect for FPSC and still has that next gen awesomeness. The controls and transparency will add enough versatility.

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2010 23:17
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Bond1 appears to be using the Doom 3 technology framework as a template for FPSC:

- Generalised normal and specular mapping
- Dynamic lighting and shadows
- Advanced animations and scripting

It wouldn't surprise me if GUI surfaces were next on his list. We are so lucky to have this guy on our forum.

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2010 23:34 Edited at: 23rd Aug 2010 23:35
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Quote: "We are so lucky to have this guy on our forum."

Don't I know it.
I know something else too... I can't be the only one who is overjoyed to the point of hysteria by the looks of your double post.

   Conjured Entertainment

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Wraith Staff
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2010 23:38
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Quote: "still has that next gen awesomeness"


Current gen

Anyway... It all looks great, though I'm still curious as to the contents of the MP. I hope it has weapons (a scifi pistol particularly) and I hope the shadow for entities comes soon... still gaping at the prospects of fan shadows

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2010 23:44
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Triple post hysteria!

I'm not going to admit how many times I've watched these dynamic shadow videos.

I actually woke up this morning recalling a dream where I was still watching this stuff. Thats pretty weird right?

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 24th Aug 2010 02:15
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Quote: "I actually woke up this morning recalling a dream where I was still watching this stuff. Thats pretty weird right?"

That is not so weird, just a side affect from Bond's work.
I have had dreams about the Metro Theatre.
Luckily I woke up before all the water made me wet the bed.

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Bootlicker
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Posted: 25th Aug 2010 22:58
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Quote: "That is not so weird, just a side affect from Bond's work.
I have had dreams about the Metro Theatre.
Luckily I woke up before all the water made me wet the bed.
"


I thought that I was kinda sad because I had 1 or 2 dreams where a bond labotomy ate me


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PW Productions
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 04:06 Edited at: 19th Sep 2010 07:19
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Quote: "I thought that I was kinda sad because I had 1 or 2 dreams where a bond labotomy ate me"


Pfft. I had a dream where I was in a room with massive amounts of bloom and walls and barrels that were so shiny it looked like they were made of liquid. In the middle of the room there was an M9 pistol and then I woke up.

Anyways! On-topic... Any updates on the shadows angling in different proportions according to light sources?


And yes. It is going to be free
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Marc Steene
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 12:04
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Quote: "Any news on the shadows angling in different proportions according to light sources?"


I think bond gave up on that.


[b]FPSC MIGRATION: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=142497&b=21
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Red Eye
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 12:11
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Maybe he can take the same calculation system when using specular maps. And rotate the shadow folowing those calcs.

Dunno...

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 26th Aug 2010 14:43
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I was on a train 2 days ago and stopping at one of the stations I noticed a metal bench on the platform with holes which produced a static mesh shadow on the floor cast from the sun.

A bird flew down, walked underneath the bench and became dynamically self shadowed by the static mesh shadow of the bench. It looked awesome and wish I'd been quick enough to take a picuture!

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 30th Aug 2010 22:44 Edited at: 30th Aug 2010 22:50
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Quote: "Current gen"

Dude, I just played "Left 4 Dead 2" to take another look at the characters' shadows only to discover a small blob.
I bought the game because Bond mentions it in his Filmgrain shader video, and because it had been awhile since I had bought a AAA game. (since Crysis)
So, these are next gen for me, especially if he gets that directional thing working eventually.
I'm sure he has an itch to get that working, so I'm betting that he'll scratch it again when he gets more free time.

Buying that game was a big mistake though, because I got into it so much for the first 3 days that I used up half my monthly bandwidth allowance.
So, I won't be around much this week.

Thanks again Bond, and I plan on bumping this everytime it hits the second page, just in case anyone missed it.


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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 30th Aug 2010 22:55
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Quote: "Dude, I just played "Left 4 Dead 2" to take another look at the characters' shadows only to discover a small blob."


Weird, what res you got it on?

They are rendering much more AI on screen than FPSC though...

Although I always felt L4D wasn't a real Valve game... :/

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 30th Aug 2010 23:19 Edited at: 30th Aug 2010 23:22
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Quote: "Weird, what res you got it on?"

I usually set those things low for multiplayer action for faster gameplay and so I don't overheat the video card.

I'll change them and look again.

Quote: "They are rendering much more AI on screen than FPSC though..."

Yeah, I know, but I just thought it was great that we can have better shadows than some of the top AAA titles.


@BOND
I sent a replay to your last email but never heard back from you.
I guess you are stil busy with the pack, but I just wanted to make sure you got it because I had one more question for you about some side work.

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Wolf
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Posted: 30th Aug 2010 23:27
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I have no idea how this works...but its absolutely brilliant!



-Wolf

God Helps the Beast in Me!
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Nbt
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Posted: 30th Aug 2010 23:30
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Quote: "because I got into it so much for the first 3 days that I used up half my monthly bandwidth allowance"


Ouch! I thought that was a thing of the past (except for Australia :p )

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 30th Aug 2010 23:53
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I would say this is very comparable with Doom 3 character shadows which isn't next gen but ID Tech 4 is an amazing engine even today.

I've put all my FPSC development on hold until this shader becomes available. Otherwise I sit up all night refreshing this thread hoping to see an update from bond1 which isn't healthy.

Can't wait for this model pack to come out. Its going to be amazing.

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 30th Aug 2010 23:59 Edited at: 31st Aug 2010 00:20
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Quote: "Weird, what res you got it on?"

You were right, it is not exactly a blob, but it sure looked like one when they stood still on low effects settings.
I switched the effects settings to high and then I got a nice shadow like Bond's.
So, it is AAA next gen as far as I'm concerned, because it can't get much better than this as far as character shadows go.


Quote: "Ouch! I thought that was a thing of the past (except for Australia :p )"

Yeah, I thought bandwidth restrictions were a thing of the past too, especially for broadband. (they know it uses a lot)
But, unfortunately the only company that I can get fast service on does have restrictions.
The limit is 5 gigabytes a month, and when I told them I needed more they replied that my option was the highest they offered.
I need unlimited bandwidth, because $0.25 per megabyte is a hefty price to pay for the overage. ($0.025 per megabyte would be more like it)

Quote: "I've put all my FPSC development on hold until this shader becomes available. Otherwise I sit up all night refreshing this thread hoping to see an update from bond1 which isn't healthy.

Can't wait for this model pack to come out. Its going to be amazing."

I've put everything on hold too. (except failing at getting a mesh onto the lipsync animations)
I'm not going to refresh this like crazy except for replies to comments like yours, but you can expect a bump everytime this hits the second page until the pack does come out.
I don't want anyone to miss the thread like I have missed some in the past only to discover the good stuff months after its release because it finally got bumped by someone.
This pack is going to be stupendous!!! (so get ready)


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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 1st Sep 2010 02:19
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Quote: "So, it is AAA next gen as far as I'm concerned, because it can't get much better than this as far as character shadows go."


Yeah these shadows are AAA for sure. When you look at bond1's example videos combining normal and specular mapping with dynamic character shadows it could be any current game engine your looking at.

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PW Productions
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Posted: 1st Sep 2010 05:37 Edited at: 19th Sep 2010 07:19
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So what happens when the shadow is angled up against a wall or going up stairs? It stays flat. Not exactly AAA, but it's the closest we've ever got yet. For sure, knowing bond, he'll most likely improvise and come up with something amazing


And yes. It is going to be free
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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 1st Sep 2010 13:00
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Shame, until FPSC gets a unified lighting system, it's unlikely you'll get something like that...

You've done a fair bit of it so far though, although with all due respect to Bond and Nomad, it doesn't look like Cry Engine 3, but it still looks good...

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 1st Sep 2010 19:58
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Quote: "Shame, until FPSC gets a unified lighting system, it's unlikely you'll get something like that..."


Lightmapping has the biggest impact on the 2GB game build memory limitation so something like deffered lighting would really help FPSC. It appears FPSC is way more comfortable when things are handled on the GPU rather than the CPU.

I was wondering with these planar shadows if it might be possible to project them onto segment walls as they are flat surfaces but may not be possible or only in a special case scenario.

I'd be interested to know what happens to the shadow when a character is walking up / down some stairs for example. I guess it would just disappear until they are on a segment floor again.

The current effect is more than good enough for me and makes a huge improvement to the overall quality of a scene. Cant wait!

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 1st Sep 2010 22:07
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I imagine that they're not actually projected though, just made to seem like a shadow at the bottom of the character using clever vector calc and such...

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bond1
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2010 18:45
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Planar by definition = flat.

Quote: "I imagine that they're not actually projected though, just made to seem like a shadow at the bottom of the character using clever vector calc and such..."


Not sure what you mean by that. They ARE projected - along the Y-axis ground plane using a custom projection matrix (like all projection techniques). The reason they won't wrap around onto walls is because this is still a character shader, not a segment shader. For this to happen, character shaders and segment shaders would need to "talk" to each other and share textures, which they don't in FPSC. Each shader is a self contained unit.

Real Time Rendering, 3rd Edition devotes an entire subchapter to planar projection shadows. So this is still very much a valid technique today - it's not perfect but it has it's place. Because it's VERY fast to compute and the eye is forgiving.

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Nbt
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2010 23:28
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Quote: "and the eye is forgiving.
"

That's the baby right there. I can't think of one single game I played in recent years that actually cast AI shadows on walls etc in realtime, i.e. not including pre-rendered cut scenes/gfx sequences.

That is not saying they never, just that I really honestly cannot remember if they did or did not.

What bond1 has done here is little short of amazing and cannot wait for his new pack to help me clear some of that stuff in my bank. Money! that's it money, help me clear some money bond1

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2010 00:57 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2010 01:12
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Quote: "Real Time Rendering, 3rd Edition devotes an entire subchapter to planar projection shadows. So this is still very much a valid technique today - it's not perfect but it has it's place. Because it's VERY fast to compute and the eye is forgiving."

Oh, but it is perfect Bond; it is perfect for FPSC because it does compute fast.
And its place is right here with us; the ones who will cherish it.
I can't imagine the extra proccessing time required for the segments and stuff to talk to each other for shaders, and the strain that would have on the frame rates.
I think this is better because of its speed, because as NBT said not many people notice stuff like that anyway.
However, this is 1000% better than the blob, and that is noticable.

Sorry I got caught into comparisons, because I don't know why this should be expected to be like anything else.
I'm starting to think some comments are just taunts on your perfectionism in the hopes you will come out with something like they want.
This is this, and it is what it is, and it is brilliantly beautiful.
Again, this is perfect for FPxC and me. You are the man Bond!

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s4real
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2010 01:12
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Awesome work as always bond can't wait to mess with them.

Any date when your new model pack will be out ?

Best s4real



Pack ya games with vishnu fpsc packer its free.
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2010 01:17 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2010 01:21
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Quote: "Any date when your new model pack will be out ?"

I was wondering the same thing, but then decided not to ask.
He said earlier it would probably be sometime in September, and if I have to wait all month it will be worth it.
Besides, the more time he has to work on the pack then the better it will be, so wow me baby because I can wait for the good things. (and this is already way beyond good!)

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2010 02:34
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The dynamic character shadow effect bond1 has produced for FPSC is absolutely perfect. I totally agree with Conjured.

Its fast, looks amazing and integrates perfectly with the way FPSC levels are developed. I wasn't sure if such a feature would ever make it into FPSC and here it is!!

I'm just looking forward to the model pack being released so I can purchase and enjoy playing around with the shader.

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fallen one
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2010 18:17
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You have certainly nailed shaders down to an art. I think you have only got a toon shader and an outline shader left and it looks like you will have single handedly solved FPSC shaders, you have certainly raised the bar for FPSC, its amazing how far this program has come along recently.


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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 5th Sep 2010 23:37
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Yer bond1 has totally nailed FPSC shaders now and this dynamic shadow shader has raised the bar yet again.

He's mastered HLSL and how to apply it to the FPSC engine. Amazing

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PW Productions
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Posted: 6th Sep 2010 04:48
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Quote: "I can't think of one single game I played in recent years that actually cast AI shadows on walls etc in realtime, i.e. not including pre-rendered cut scenes/gfx sequences."


Every Halo game from the first had it I believe. I think MW2 and Bad Co 2 has it as well. But those are top of the line, and I agree with you. Bond1's shaders are practically better than some of the shaders used in the 'lower' than AAA games like the ones I listed above. Nice work bond And kudos for coming so far to help us out.


If something is perfect, it probably doesn't work. -PWP
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Nbt
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Posted: 6th Sep 2010 13:37
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Quote: "Every Halo game from the first had it I believe."


he he he - see what I mean. I have played and own every Halo game to date and never noticed any shadows cast on walls lol

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 6th Sep 2010 18:49
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Quote: "Bond1's shaders are practically better than some of the shaders used in the 'lower' than AAA games"


Yeah bond1's dynamic character shadows are better than a lot of recent commercial games I've played. They are definately going to help FPSC compete with some of the bigger engines out there.

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PW Productions
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Posted: 7th Sep 2010 01:27
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Quote: "I have played and own every Halo game to date and never noticed any shadows cast on walls lol"


In Halo 3 in Foundry, if you go to the left base area and stand next to one of the walls you can see your shadow being cast across the floor and onto the wall Halo 2 had it, and in Halo 1 it was an option (for PC).


If something is perfect, it probably doesn't work. -PWP
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 01:05
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Quote: "Yeah bond1's dynamic character shadows are better than a lot of recent commercial games I've played. They are definately going to help FPSC compete with some of the bigger engines out there."

It's MAGIC !



I dedicate that song to Bond and Lee, because they bring all my dreams alive!



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bond1
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Posted: 8th Sep 2010 01:17
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The early 80's "magic" craze! Everyone had a song about magic.

How bout a little America:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YlrHpoADIs&feature=related

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 9th Sep 2010 19:22
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LOL. Thanks for that bond1.

It was almost as magical as your dynamic character shadow videos.

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 10th Sep 2010 19:10
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@bond1

Will the new model pack also contain your next gen parallax offset shader as this was slated for release in your next model pack some time ago.

I think you will get record sales with this pack. FPSC graphics are going to be an order of magnitude better once dynamic character shadows have been added.

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bond1
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Posted: 11th Sep 2010 03:50
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Quote: "Will the new model pack also contain your next gen parallax offset shader as this was slated for release in your next model pack some time ago."


No this pack will be scifi horror characters, with the emphasis on shadows and the new shader variable system, to dynamically alter the shader in-game via scripting.

The parallax shader will come in another environment model pack (like The Metro Theater).

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Aaagreen
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Posted: 11th Sep 2010 04:01
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Quote: "I can't think of one single game I played in recent years that actually cast AI shadows on walls etc in realtime"


You can't have played many new games then, because Grand Theft Auto IV, Crysis, Call of Duty 4 and any other game with dynamic shadows has been doing this for a while now.

What we've got here certainly does bring FPS Creator's graphical capabilities up a huge notch, but let's not forget who you're trying to compete with here. We still need a talented developer to make good commercial use of this stuff, instead of making a few pretty rooms with zombies and giving up.


I'd love to see things from your point of view but I can't get my head that far up my bum.
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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 11th Sep 2010 15:07
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Quote: "No this pack will be scifi horror characters, with the emphasis on shadows and the new shader variable system, to dynamically alter the shader in-game via scripting."


Wow. That just sounds amazing and I can't even imagine what the new shader variable system is going to be like.

Quote: "The parallax shader will come in another environment model pack (like The Metro Theater)."


So there are going to be 2 must have new model packs. This is fantastic news.

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Soviet176
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Posted: 11th Sep 2010 19:55
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Bond, do you think you can make these sci-fi horror things Dark AI complacent? so we can use our soldiers to help us fight them?

Putting fear back into sliced bread since 4th May 2010
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Flatlander
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Posted: 12th Sep 2010 06:48 Edited at: 12th Sep 2010 06:50
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Quote: "Say good bye to the blob."


I said good-bye to it when I first started using FPSC. I especially wanted to kill the shadows when I destroyed the character in script rather than killing the character. A by-product of that was that the blob stayed on the ground. So, I turned the blob image invisible. Then in RPG Mod I made an option to turn the blob off.

OMGosh, this is for sure a must-have. I will now have characters with shadows. Assuming the shadows don't remain when I destroy the character rather than kill the character.

I liked nbt's thought about an invisible character that actually still has a shadow. That will work real well in one of my Doctor episodes -- uhhh, I mean levels.

Also, the new characters will fit in nicely as well.

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

Add more adventure to your game -- use RPG Mod
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uzi idiot
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Posted: 12th Sep 2010 18:56
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this is great
If you do get it working real-time with lighting... words cannot describe the awesomeness

good frame rates matter...
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michael x
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Posted: 12th Sep 2010 20:16
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hey bond1 could you make this shader use mutliple textures? mean when character has more than one texture.

more than what meets the eye

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 12th Sep 2010 23:13
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Why would textures be relevant, textures don't affect the shadow's outline...

Your signature has been erased by a mod please reduce it to 600 x 120.
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 13th Sep 2010 04:05
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Quote: "mean when character has more than one texture."

ALT TEXTUREs crash when used with characters.
At least they used to cause a crash, but I have not tried it lately.

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Nomad Soul
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Posted: 15th Sep 2010 15:09 Edited at: 15th Sep 2010 15:12
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Quote: "Bond, do you think you can make these sci-fi horror things Dark AI complacent? so we can use our soldiers to help us fight them?"


Even if they are not scripted for Dark AI out of the box you can easily make them Dark AI compatible by assigning a stock Dark AI script to them and mapping the custom animation frames. See this link for an example I did with bond1's Dante Beast in X10.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONIsr725RgM

It would be harder to do a complete port but I'm sure the community would be able to fix this if required.

Quote: "I liked nbt's thought about an invisible character that actually still has a shadow"


Bond1 has made the shadow transparency setting independant of the model so that effect will be totally possible.

Quote: "If you do get it working real-time with lighting... words cannot describe the awesomeness"


He already did but it caused the shadow to skew undesirably because of the way FPSC averages lights (engine issue not shader).

Quote: "hey bond1 could you make this shader use mutliple textures? mean when character has more than one texture."


Actually this question does have some relevance. The shader has 2 passes, 1 for normal / specular mapping and 1 for the shadow.

Traditionally the normal and specular pass will only work for a single UV map texture where you create a _N and _I from the diffuse and this (to my knowledge) doesn't support models which are using more than one diffuse texture. To be honest though all modern characters are textured with a single UV map so thats the direction we should be going in.

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Gibba gobba
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Posted: 19th Sep 2010 06:09
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Very cool! Will we be able to use this any time soon?

Changing the world of game making, one line of code at a time!
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