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FPSC Classic Models and Media / Planar Projected Character Shadows - Teaser

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bond1
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Posted: 19th Aug 2010 21:32 Edited at: 19th Aug 2010 21:52
Quote: "Could you upload a vid of this shader being used with your Dante beast? That would look EPIC."


Your're right, it does look epic. Check it out, try and watch it high-def and fullscreen to really see how cool it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQqcFqtHUqo

This is great for larger characters, that small little shadow disk looked really lame on this character, totally out of place.

I've yet to see shadows in ANY game that are perfect. Many times they are projecting right through surfaces, are totally opaque, or poking through areas they shouldn't be, or the shadow map resolution is too low and super-pixelated. So I think these look quite nice.

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"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."
Bootlicker
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Posted: 19th Aug 2010 21:36
how about the dogman? I'd like to see that


bond1
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Posted: 19th Aug 2010 21:39
Quote: "how about the dogman? I'd like to see that "


Oh yeah! I'll do that a bit later. Yes, it would be PERFECT for that as well, since that character is four-legged, the blob shadow doesn't work at all! I'm loving playing around with this, but I gotta get some other work done now!

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"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."
GreenDixy
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Posted: 19th Aug 2010 22:25
hey bond i know its going in a pack you willing to sell it outside the pack?

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GreenDixy Productions http://GreenDixy.Com
Dr Parsnips
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Posted: 19th Aug 2010 23:46 Edited at: 19th Aug 2010 23:49
Woah! This is incredible really good work!
I wish there was some way to have shadows dart across light coming from a doorway like they do all the time in Bioshock. Add for a really spooky atmosphere.

Edit: Like this


bond1
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Posted: 20th Aug 2010 00:17 Edited at: 20th Aug 2010 00:19
Thanks! Yeah that screenshot is cool isn't it? But those are specially prepared scenes - you only see those type of shadows in certain places meant for added drama.

And even then, notice it's not perfect - the carriage shadow unnaturally dead-ends into the floor instead of wrapping around it. I guess AAA developers have their limitations as well. Dead giveaway that this was a "special-case" scene.

But I digress

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"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."
Dr Parsnips
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Posted: 20th Aug 2010 00:21
Yeah definitley! Anyway really cool shader buddy! Very excited for this!

Scope
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Posted: 20th Aug 2010 00:22
Just awesome!
Scope.
teamhalo
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Posted: 20th Aug 2010 02:15
Quote: "I MIGHT be able to also use the average lightsource direction to skew the matrix so that the shadow reacts to light direction. "




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Disturbing 13
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Posted: 20th Aug 2010 03:05
Speechless! What is the theme of the pack that these are being released in?

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Making Monsters do Horrible things!
vortech
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Posted: 20th Aug 2010 08:57
Maybe Sci-Fi. He said earlier that he's going to make scifi characters pack.


Check for pure horror.
SOLO DESIGN
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Posted: 20th Aug 2010 12:28
This is much needed!!! We are so lucky to have this talent on our boards people!!!
Nomad Soul
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Posted: 20th Aug 2010 15:48
Quote: "I MIGHT be able to also use the average lightsource direction to skew the matrix so that the shadow reacts to light direction."


That would be very cool. It already works very well though especially if the projected shadow look can be edited in Dark Shader!

Quote: "I've yet to see shadows in ANY game that are perfect. Many times they are projecting right through surfaces, are totally opaque, or poking through areas they shouldn't be, or the shadow map resolution is too low and super-pixelated. So I think these look quite nice"


Thats true. These dynamic shadows actually look a lot better than some next gen console games I've seen where they are really pixelated and choppy.

Sacristic
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Posted: 20th Aug 2010 16:19
Since the shadow is dynamic. Will it then also react on the light and cast equally when reaching a lightsource?

Plystire
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Posted: 20th Aug 2010 16:23
Quote: "Thats true. These dynamic shadows actually look a lot better than some next gen console games I've seen where they are really pixelated and choppy."


Except the pixelated/choppy shadows are stencil shadows, a much newer (and more draining) shadow technique than the one bond1 has made here. The quality could obviously be increased, but as with all things, you need to weigh your options. Typically designers choose to have the "real" shadows which react with the environment better, at the cost of slightly lower quality.

Of course, the projected planar shadows we see here can be used in a myriad of ways to give off great effects, especially given the amount of quality they have. If you know a specific part in your game will have the character's shadow on a flat surface, that would be a great moment to use this technique.


Just remember, you can't take everything at face value. Not every shadow is created equal. Nor are many techniques in games. It's supposed to be up to the game designer which technique to persue for their game.... not so much with FPSC, I suppose.


The one and only,


bond1
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Posted: 20th Aug 2010 17:54 Edited at: 20th Aug 2010 18:05
Quote: "Since the shadow is dynamic. Will it then also react on the light and cast equally when reaching a lightsource?"


Well, kind of. It's dynamic in the sense that it's generated in realtime, and reacts to characters movements. I use a lerp to modulate it's INTENSITY based on ambient light and SurfColor light intensity.

It does not however, react to DIRECTION of the lightsource. I'm fiddling with that, but FPSC isn't that robust about passing directionality of lights to shaders. Becuase FPSC averages all the lights for a given area, instead pulling a specific light direction.

I think in the end, giving artists control over how the shadow is projected and skewed is the best way to do it for this shader. So for some areas, you could have top-down shadows. Or in dark, gloomy areas, you could have elongated shadows.

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Nbt
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Posted: 20th Aug 2010 18:40
With a little effort on our part in,ought placement, this still works out great (in my honest opinion) and is heaps and heaps better than what we have right now. Also to be honest, when I'm fighting for my life I tend not to check the direction of the enemies shadow overly

Nomad Soul
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Posted: 20th Aug 2010 19:16
Agreed

When combining these dynamic character shadows with bond1's normal / specular segment and entity shaders I think we've effectively gone from Quake 3 quality to something more comparible with Doom 3. Especially with the performance and features of V117+.

If bond1 expands this dynamic shadow technology to non character entities the entire environment would become dynamic like the classic ceiling fan silhouette moving around the floor etc.

Wraith Staff
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Posted: 20th Aug 2010 19:31
Quote: "the classic ceiling fan silhouette moving around the floor etc."


That has been something I've wanted for FAR too long! Also, don't forget wall fans as well, you can't underestimate a good wall fan

bond1
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Posted: 21st Aug 2010 00:13 Edited at: 21st Aug 2010 00:14
Quote: "What is the theme of the pack that these are being released in?"


Scifi/horror. Not the standard Space Marines and aliens. But more Dead-Space type things. Creatures that have interesting sillouhettes really make the shadows even creepier.

The pack will really show off the new shader variable system (that's the plan anyway). If you think the biggest "wow" moment comes from the shadows, you ain't seen nothing yet!

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Nbt
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Posted: 21st Aug 2010 00:16
bond1 will it also work if the AI has transparent or even invisible texture?? Cause seeing a shadow wandering across a room is kind of disconcerting to the brain and would be cool. Especially coming right for you

Soviet176
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Posted: 21st Aug 2010 00:17
Quote: "Scifi/horror"


Omfg dead space FTW!! awesome sauce, I can't wait!

Putting fear back into sliced bread since 4th May 2010
bond1
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Posted: 21st Aug 2010 00:20
Quote: "bond1 will it also work if the AI has transparent or even invisible texture?"


Yes, this could either work for or against you depending on what you're after though!

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Nbt
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Posted: 21st Aug 2010 00:24
Would be nice if AI could use alternate textures like entities and just have a faint shadow walking/chasing about, then trigger the alternate texture when close to the player - Booo!

bond1
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Posted: 21st Aug 2010 00:29
This is entirely possible now with shader variables - this and much more actually. Once I get the pack released, I'll show you how it works. I still haven't actually used it myself - it's in 1.17, but it's an undocumented feature. You kind of need to know HLSL coding to use it.

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Wraith Staff
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Posted: 21st Aug 2010 00:31
Any new weapons in the pack? We've needed better scifi weapons for way too long!

DarkJames
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Posted: 21st Aug 2010 01:32
i think now im more anxious about that pack..

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 21st Aug 2010 01:36
Bond, will people who buy your pack be able to get a hold of the base Max files? I love your media and it's stellar, but I don't use FPSC anymore...

Reverse engineering X stably is nigh impossible, so would it be possible to get the Max files after I buy your pack, or if I send you the money?

Nbt
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Posted: 21st Aug 2010 02:20 Edited at: 21st Aug 2010 02:20
Quote: "You kind of need to know HLSL coding to use it."

I do, it's called "wait until bond1 makes what you need, then buy it" ^_^

vortech
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2010 13:25
You should tease us with some of your Scifi/Horror pack screenshots.


Check for pure horror.
Red Eye
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2010 14:15 Edited at: 22nd Aug 2010 14:17
nvm

bond1
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2010 20:25 Edited at: 22nd Aug 2010 20:28
Quote: "ou should tease us with some of your Scifi/Horror pack screenshots."


Not yet, and even screenshots won't do it justice. Many of the shader effects are dynamic, so you'll need to see it in action.

I will tell you, that this pack will be for people who have invested in nice graphics cards and want to get the most out of them. FPSC isn't very graphically demanding nowadays compared to current-gen games out there, and there is a lot of untapped potential.

Even with 1.17 post-processing, wall to wall normal mapping, and tons of normal mapped characters - my GPU usage is only at 12-15% in FPSC. Compare that to Bioshock, where my GPU usage is 55%. Metro 2033, a punishing game, my GPU usage is over 90%. So it's time to let the people who have nice GPU's have a little fun, rather than cater to the minimum spec.

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"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."
Bootlicker
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2010 20:29
Quote: "I will tell you, that this pack will be for people who have invested in nice graphics cards and want to use them to their full capability."


aww man, does that mean I won't be able to run this pack? Even will older shaders like the zombie apoc one?

ATI Radeon X1300 Pro
1.6ghz Dual Core
2.00 GB RAM


bond1
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2010 20:33
Quote: "ATI Radeon X1300 Pro"


How does this card handle newer games out there with higher graphics settings?

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"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."
Nomad Soul
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2010 20:34 Edited at: 22nd Aug 2010 20:38
@bond1

Thanks for providing Doom 3 quality shadow effects in FPSC. I can't wait to purchase the pack and use what is one of the most highly requested features on the forum.

Glad you agree with me about liking the harder shadow look. Transparency is great and allows flexibility for brightly lit areas but the hard dark shadows definitely have their place.

I'm not even going to think about the dynamic shadow effects at the moment, its just too much for my limited brain to contemplate.

Edit - I have a Nvidia 9800GT. Hope that will be ok.

Bootlicker
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2010 20:38
Quote: "
How does this card handle newer games out there with higher graphics settings?
"


Despite a few not believing me it can run Crysis on half of the settings on medium and half on low. This is with a very good fps of about 50 in most of the games scenarios. That's probably the most demanding game I have as I don't really invest in PC games too much as I prefer getting the £3 bargains, like mirrors edge, for PS3.


bond1
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2010 21:10
Quote: "t can run Crysis on half of the settings on medium and half on low"


Ok. Well, Crysis is a game defined by it's graphics, and Crysis on medium/low pretty much strips out many of the defining graphics of that game.

Your card will be able to run the barebones shadow shader, as that only requires a ps2.0 card. But many of the defining effects I have planned for this pack won't work well (or at all) on your card. I'll say the minimum spec for this pack will be a Geforce 8-series (released in 2007), or a Radeon HD-series card.

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"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."
Bootlicker
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2010 21:14
Quote: "
Your card will be able to run the barebones shadow shader, as that only requires a ps2.0 card. But many of the defining effects I have planned for this pack won't work well (or at all) on your card. I'll say the minimum spec for this pack will be a Geforce 8-series (released in 2007), or a Radeon HD-series card.
"


Feel free to send me a sneak peek as a beta test

JOKES before I get flamed.

Unless ofcourse you were gonna...

wow, I make myself laugh


Seth Black
FPSC Reloaded TGC Backer
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2010 21:30
...this looks absolutely fantastic, bond1.

Superior in every way over the blob...

bond1
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2010 23:29 Edited at: 22nd Aug 2010 23:29
I will more than likely make an extra set of alternate scaled-down shaders, for people that don't have the best graphic card. So that way, people that have great cards will be able to get the best effects, and people with lesser cards won't be left out in the cold either.

By the way, I'm VERY close to getting the shadows to react to actual light direction! I was able to get the shadow "anchored" to the character while being skewed, now I just have to get the light vector to fill in the skew values properly. Might still be a bit of work, but I think I'm getting close now!

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2010 05:16
Quote: "By the way, I'm VERY close to getting the shadows to react to actual light direction! I was able to get the shadow "anchored" to the character while being skewed, now I just have to get the light vector to fill in the skew values properly. Might still be a bit of work, but I think I'm getting close now!"

WOW
Just when I thought it can't get any better.

I am still in shock over these videos.

   Conjured Entertainment

 WARNING: Intense Madness
SamHH
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2010 08:26
Two questions:
1. What's the cat icon on your .DDS files in your video, I'd like to know how you get thumbnails to show up, as I'm jealous.
2. What are writing your shaders in? Are you using .fx composer?

Thanks,
Sam


vortech
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2010 08:31
1. They are IrfanView icons. google it.
2. Propably dark shader.


Check for pure horror.
Sacristic
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2010 10:13
It's nice to hear that when you are making these shaders you are actually gain new ground each time.
It must be rewarding. Because those shaders are well made and since you have released a few shaders back then you have helped the community by getting everyone a chance to increase the visual quality of their games.

I really hope that you succeed in this.
Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2010 19:00
Quote: "I'll say the minimum spec for this pack will be a Geforce 8-series (released in 2007), or a Radeon HD-series card."

I knew that 8800GT would come in handy for something other than FPSC X10 someday, but I never would have thought it would be for FPSC X9.

Quote: "I really hope that you succeed in this. "

I think he already has succeeded in shaders.
He is a shader master right now as far as I am concerned.
First his modeling and textures skills amazed me, but these shaders have really blown me away.
I am still in shock over these shadows, and don't expect to ever fully recover, but maybe I will be able to stop drooling in a day or two.

   Conjured Entertainment

 WARNING: Intense Madness
Marc Steene
FPSC Master
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2010 19:43
Quote: "maybe I will be able to stop drooling in a day or two."


I'm pretty amazed right now, but if bond is able to get directional lighting information from the engine, I'll probably turn into Pavlov's dog. Can't wait to see what else you have in store for us.


[b]FPSC MIGRATION: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=142497&b=21
Nomad Soul
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2010 19:54
Yeah directional lighting with these projected shadows would be seriously awesome. Their stunning already.

Will the light direction be averaged from the lights in a scene? My only concern is you might get the shadow spinning around the character too much where there are multiple lights otherwise.

Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2010 20:22 Edited at: 23rd Aug 2010 20:28
Quote: "This is a nice alternative that is totally GPU based, so it doesn't burden the engine at all. Definitely a nice improvement over the blob shadow."

This is much better as an optional shader than being built in, however the basic one should be a stock file for the engine, so I hope TGC realizes the benefits of this.

Quote: "Yeah directional lighting with these projected shadows would be seriously awesome. Their stunning already.

Will the light direction be averaged from the lights in a scene? My only concern is you might get the shadow spinning around the character too much where there are multiple lights otherwise."

Yeah, that would be really cool, but these are fine as they are.
So, don't get tooo caught up into being perfect again Bond.
Although, I think your skills are nearing perfection anyway, so it probably won't take you long to nail it.
What you have so far with the hard and soft (transparent) ones is fine for me, and I am still amazed that you pulled this off with a shader.

Quote: "but if bond is able to get directional lighting information from the engine, I'll probably turn into Pavlov's dog"

At this point, there is nothing he can do that would suprise me, because I now know he is capable of anything, including the "impossible".

@BOND
I sent you an email, but don't freak out if it seems a bit odd, because I am still in shock over these shadows.

   Conjured Entertainment

 WARNING: Intense Madness
Nbt
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2010 21:04
Quote: "@BOND
I sent you an email, but don't freak out if it seems a bit odd, because I am still in shock over these shadows."

Declaration of your undying love eh??

I send them to bond1 every week

bond1
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2010 22:04 Edited at: 23rd Aug 2010 22:06
Quote: "Will the light direction be averaged from the lights in a scene? My only concern is you might get the shadow spinning around the character too much where there are multiple lights otherwise.""


Yes unfortunately that seems to be the case now - it will flip distractingly, and often appear "wrong" because of light averaging. Coming from an abstract "top-down" direction looks the most correct, so I'm going with that. But there are controls to control shadow dilation and skew/stretch as well.

Quote: "So, don't get tooo caught up into being perfect again Bond."


Yeah I've laboured over this too long now, so I'm happy with it as it stands. Time to get back to work on the pack to get it finished up.

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"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."

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