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Geek Culture / who believes in extra terestrials?

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Delta Games
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 18:26 Edited at: 19th Mar 2006 18:30
I defently beleave in God for reasons i wont go into but i think its a whole lot bigger that the bible tells us.

science is slowley starting to agree with relgion. Give it an onther few years and the 2 will fit together. There is a higher being other there watching and admistrating every thing.

Quote: "but if there is a god, 1 or more, why havent we seen or heard anything from them for well over a thousand years?, we hear all these religiouse storys of gods doing things, giving powers to men who lead, but it defiantly does all seem to be just storys, why did they stop.
"


over a thousand years is nothing compared to time. Some thing big is about to happen weather it be tomorrow or in 300 years.
Jeku
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 19:12 Edited at: 19th Mar 2006 19:13
Enough with the religion talk, guys, or we're going to have to get out the padlock.

Quote: "To finally bring it to a close, Cristinanity happened in Europe. What about the Americas? What about Africa? Did your god consiter those people SOO insignifigant that he didn't CARE about their Native Religions? Only White Europeans?"


But Merranvo, sometimes you just amuse me with your ignorance. Looking back in history, not many people disagree that Jesus was a real man, but he didn't come from Europe. He was from Jerusalem, in the middle east, so he was most likely dark skinned. Your "Christianity happend in Europe" argument is baseless, since Christianity as a word comes from Christ, who Christians believe was Jesus.

Anyways, that's just pointing out historical fact, in a... um, non-religious way

Chilled Programmer 420
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Posted: 19th Mar 2006 21:46
Quote: "over a thousand years is nothing compared to time. Some thing big is about to happen weather it be tomorrow or in 300 years. "

a thousand years is a longtime since the dawn of man, addmitedly not the dawn of time(if there is such a thing)

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 20th Mar 2006 01:07
Matter can be made from a simple wave. Matter is a wave if magnify it enough. And the wave starts itself off due to attraction. All that is in the universe is made from attraction. Earth is made from particles being attracted to each other, and we call that Gravity. We are attracted to the opposite sex, same as all creatures. Even a male spider is attracted to the female spider, but will be eaten alive after mating. Water follows water, dust follows dust, light follows light, just the simplest rule is attraction. Like to like. No big bang... well unless you use the word Big Bang in a porno sort of way.

VR2
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Posted: 20th Mar 2006 13:26 Edited at: 20th Mar 2006 13:48
Quote: " It only takes a couple of hundred years to develop a UFO type technology, so they only need to be 200 years more advanced than us"


Based on what? The fact that we did it before? And what is "UFO type technology" anyway? Do you mean the ability to "virtually instantly goto anywhere in the universe, at a point in time of your choosing?" as, surely, that's what you'd need to do if you wanted to explore the universe!

The problem of course is that they'd have to be using a tech that basically goes against our current understanding of physics.

Sure, you can get some weird effects happing in nature, time slowing down, linked particles and wormholes but only around cosmic events like big bangs and black holes. And even then, only in some theories.

So what do we know, for sure?

We know that if aliens came to us in flying saucers from another planet, they'd have to travel to us from another solar system. That means from another star system like our own.

We know that the nearest star is 4 light years away (but we don't know if there is any life there at all, aside from intelligence), meaning even if they travelled from that system, straight to us, at the 186,000 miles per second, it would take them 4 years to get to us, plus 4 years to get back of course. Not that we have any incling of how to travel at anything like that speed.

We also know that, the chances are, you'll have to go ALOT farther out to actually come across another race with spaceship technology, most likely they will be billions of light years away from us.

So surely, if they wanted to contact us (or anyone else) they would phone first, just to make sure we were in? Rather than possibly waste a few million years (in suspended animation?) while they get here - assuming they suspected there was anyone here to chat to anyway?

Given that this planet and the life on it developed about as quickly as the universe would allow, then any signals we receive would have to come from a race *very* close to use, since it would not be possible for them to be very much older than us. This much reduces our chances of hearing anything - effectively you don't / can't have the entire universe to talk to, only those on your local exchange.

So, given what we know:

Radio signals, from a nearby intelligent race? Maybe a slim chance.

Flying saucers, here to just have a look, maybe abduct the odd person for a few experiments? Nah, no way.
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Posted: 20th Mar 2006 20:50
Mexico City, has quite a few UFO sightings every day. I also know a few people who have seen abnormal things in the sky as I have.

One night I was camping with some friends, and we were sitting around the fire, and I was watching the stars, and just looking at constellations, because I like to do that. Well, as I was galancing around, I thought I saw a star move. So I kept watching it. Sure enought it moves again, about 5 seconds later, this time in the opposite direction. I am intrigued now, so I keep watching, and about every five seconds it would make another move. This happened like 4 times total, then after the last five seconds it sorta floated off behind some trees in an "S" shape. It was interesting to say the least. I can't imagine what could have made moves like that. So its movements were sorta like...



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Matt Rock
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Posted: 20th Mar 2006 22:03
I'm sorry Jeku, but I can't let this slip. I'll try my very best to make this non-biased, even though I'm pretty happy being agnostic/ borderline aetheist. But please don't lock this thread for my post... delete this post if you feel it's wrong but don't punish everyone else because I voiced my opinion.

Quote: "When was the last time you (or anyone) saw a monkey give birth to a human baby? Or some random monkey/human mixture walk out of the jungle? Or the univers explode out of nothing or, I could go on... You can't say something like that when it can be said right back at any other theory is all I wanted to say"


Evolution is a science. Hands-down outright. The only reason it's a theory is because organized religious beliefs contradict it. There are thousands of bone species that archeologists have dug up that directly link early primates to modern humans. There is no scientific evidence that supports Creationism or "intelligent design" because you can't scientifically prove that god exists. I'm not saying religion is wrong or that your views are wrong... everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But religion has been wrong in the past and I'm willing to bet it's wrong in this particular case as well.

The reason they shouldn't teach creationism in schools is a simple matter of the separation of Church and State, a rule that seems to be teetering on the edge of exinction right now. To teach that god, any god, created the universe would directly violate our religious right to believe in whatever we want to believe. And I feel that aetheists and/ or agnostics should be entitled to the same rights. Evolution is a scientifically-viable theory, with thousands of cases etched in stone with common-sense-methodology. They teach it in schools for the same reason they teach other forms of science. And if I ever have kids, I won't send them to school that doesn't teach evolution.

Quote: "Mexico City, has quite a few UFO sightings every day. I also know a few people who have seen abnormal things in the sky as I have."

I'd need to see a UFO to believe they exist. I believe in extraterrestrials, and I'm confident there has to be life out there capable of visiting earth, but until I see a UFO with my own eyes I won't be able to believe in them. It'd be cool though In the words of Radiohead:

I wish that they'd swoop down in a country lane
Late at night when I'm driving
Take me on board their beautiful ship
Show me the world as I'd love to see it
I'd tell all my friends
But they'd never believe
They'd think that I'd finally lost it completely
they'd show me the stars
And the meaning of life
They'd shut me away
But I'd be all right



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Les Horribres
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Posted: 21st Mar 2006 05:41
Jeku, I thought you knew I was an athiest. That being said, I don't care where he was born, just the fact that his "sphere of influnce" covered a limited area.

I would also like to point out again, that we are all idiots, we may deny it, but until proven otherwise, it must be true.

OUR laws of physics states that WE can't go faster then the speed of light because we wrote that. We may have proven it to our own extent, but it may only be true under the conditions that we proved it.

I would say that it is much more likly that a race visits a planet, either robotically, or physically, then phoneing that race. The chance of randomly hitting a planet is... well 10^10^10:1 given that the universe is infinite, but that is besides the point. You would need physical data, actually visit the solar system. Not just sit back and sent out comuniques all over the universe hoping that someone is listening.

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Posted: 21st Mar 2006 06:53
Alot have people have been saying that putting God into the picture doesn't help anything, but it definatly gets your farther back in history. If someone asked you what caused the big bang, an athiest wouldn't have and answer. A Christian on the other hand might say "God caused the big bang, which created all the galaxies in the universe". It may not explain every little thing because its impossible to know EVERYTHING, but it gets you another step further to what started it all.

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Jeku
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Posted: 21st Mar 2006 09:36
See Matt, you're being hypocritical. You're saying that they should treat atheists like they have their own religion, so teaching creationism would be infringing on their rights. Okay, I can live with that.

However, then you say that they teach evolution like other sciences, but yet according to creationists, evolution is treading on their religion. Yet you have no problem with that. It's a double standard.

To be fair, if they take out religion from schools, and if atheists want to be treated with equality of believers, then they must treat anti-creationists with the same equality of believers, and not teach the theory of evolution either.

@Merranvo - If you're going to make wild statements about a religion that you obviously don't know much about, then be prepared to get a backlash. I would expect you to have a rebuttal for me if I ever lay down scientific innaccuracies with whatever you believe in.

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Posted: 21st Mar 2006 12:52
Quote: "I would say that it is much more likly that a race visits a planet, either robotically, or physically, then phoneing that race. The chance of randomly hitting a planet is... well 10^10^10:1 given that the universe is infinite, but that is besides the point. You would need physical data, actually visit the solar system. Not just sit back and sent out comuniques all over the universe hoping that someone is listening.
"


Are you really saying that its more likely that aliens sit back, for millions of years, waiting for their probes (or scouts) to send them back data from their travels, even though the chances of finding such a planet in that way are virtually non-existant? My goodness, they must have ALOT of patience!

Perhaps you don't think that light speed is any sortof limit at all, just another barrier to be broken (like the sound barrier for instance?) and that its quite feasable to travel faster than this (heck, and go back in time while you do it). Interesting.

I say again, based on what we currently think we know about the laws of physics, one would have to say that this is not possible or likely and that best hope of detecting intelligent life from other planets would come from stray (or intended) radio wave transmissions, which would beam out in ALL directions from their source like an ever expanding bubble. We too have a bubble like this, which started going out around 1936, just 70 years ago, meaning it has now extended 70 light yeaars into space. 70 light years means its hardly even "left the building". Still, thats alot farther than our deepest space "probe", Voyager, I believe it only left the solar system quite recently?

So you see, forget probes, they're too slow, you need to send radio and you need it to get millions of light years away before it might be likely to hit another system with any race (like us) capable of detecting it.

The human race hasn't even been around that long, so the chances are we wouldn't even BE HERE when/if the signals were detected.

I would suggest that our best hope of being able to say that we are not totally alone in the universe would be to find some sign of life on a body in our solar system, perhaps Mars or Europa or Titan etc, which, despite some false claims over the years has never been done, of course.

After all, that is the real question isn't it? "Are we alone?" - If even basic bacteria were found (and was not some over-hyped media story) then that question would be answered.
dark coder
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Posted: 21st Mar 2006 15:53
if there are other 'aliens' out there we havent considered that we might be telling them exactly where our planet is so they can invade and destroy us? as this is totlaly possible, for all we know there are lots of races out there perhaps one super race that likes destroying other races and making our position known is very stupid, as we expect some nice frisbee with lights around it to come down and some nice green men with beady eyes to greet everyone when they could be out to kill everyone.

and i dont know much about physics but why exactly is the speed of light the so called limit? sure you wouldent be able to see them move any faster than the speed of light but if you made some really big catapult or something that moved you faster than the speed of light?

Halowed are the ori.
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 21st Mar 2006 16:02 Edited at: 21st Mar 2006 16:04
Quote: "you wouldent be able to see them move any faster than the speed of light but if you made some really big catapult or something that moved you faster than the speed of light?"


If matter accelerated to the speed of light, it would become energy. Basically, it would be destroyed. Matter and energy are interchangeable in regards to conservation of mass, but certainly not convertable from one form to another. That's Star Trek stuff. In the future, who knows, but right now it's impossible.

Plus, energy cannot accelerate matter beyond its own maximum speed. It's like a 100mph wind - it couldn't accelerate anything it was carrying to 101mph. It's own potential energy level is the limit. Basically, we want energy to carry vehicles faster than light when that energy couldn't carry a grain of sand that speed.

Just Google it. I find this stuff really fascinating.


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Posted: 21st Mar 2006 18:19
Quote: "Matter and energy are interchangeable in regards to conservation of mass, but certainly not convertable from one form to another"


Not quite sure what that means but Energy and Matter can and are converted to each other all the time. There is a famous equation that describes this

The point is, Light Speed, 186,000,000 miles per second is like a cosmic speed limit, nothing, not even light itself can travel faster.

Given the size of even our local area, the Milky way, (100,000 light years across) then even IF they existed so close by AND could travel close to light speed it would take hundreds of thousands of years to get here.

But our galaxy is just one of billions, and to travel to us from another galaxy would take even longer still.

So again, we have to say that in order to allow the possiblity of aliens visiting us, we have to throw away everything we think we know about physics.
QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 21st Mar 2006 19:05 Edited at: 21st Mar 2006 19:07
Quote: "we found evidence of life, fossilised microbes have been found on mars."

What in the hell are you talking about?

Anyway, there's obviously life on other planets because we put it there, in the form of bacteria clinging to our shuttles and satellites.

Edit: woah this is five pages?! I didn't see that one coming.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 21st Mar 2006 21:11
Quote: "Alot have people have been saying that putting God into the picture doesn't help anything, but it definatly gets your farther back in history. If someone asked you what caused the big bang, an athiest wouldn't have and answer. A Christian on the other hand might say "God caused the big bang, which created all the galaxies in the universe". It may not explain every little thing because its impossible to know EVERYTHING, but it gets you another step further to what started it all."

What do you mean by that? The big bang theory doesn't exist because Christians exist, and I'm 100% positive that people who are deeply religious, I mean "hardcore" religious, don't believe in the big bang. And we have archeology, which gives you a much more vivid image of the past than any book from the era, including the bible and other religious documents. If we based all of our science on religion, we'd still think the sun and stars revolved around the flat earth and the moon was made of cheese.

Quote: "To be fair, if they take out religion from schools, and if atheists want to be treated with equality of believers, then they must treat anti-creationists with the same equality of believers, and not teach the theory of evolution either."

But there isn't really any science in creationism, and that's my only real problem with it. I think people should have a right to believe what they want to believe, but there's a separation of church and state and that's the only law that's keeping us from living under a monarchist theocracy. There's a lot more science to evolution (obviously)... it isn't some random belief, it's a scientifically-discovered theory, complete with math and all that fun stuff. That's what should be tought in schools... not a faith-based idealism. When evolution is proven wrong, scientifically, and replaced with some other scientific theory, then we should teach THAT theory, but we should NEVER teach that god made this and god made that... it's just not right. School is supposed to be a conveyor of science, math, history, etc., and not another venue for religion. If people want to learn about Creationism, they should do so at their church or at their religious school. In the same stroke, it wouldn't be right to teach evolution in a church... see my point?

Quote: "We too have a bubble like this, which started going out around 1936, just 70 years ago, meaning it has now extended 70 light yeaars into space"

Do radio waves travel at the speed of light? Or are they faster or slower? I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just asking.

Quote: "What in the hell are you talking about?"

I think they're talking about this.


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Les Horribres
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Posted: 21st Mar 2006 21:22
VR2, what are you talking about? Sending a radio signal is very ineffiecant. The chance of a single radio wave hitting a planet in a particular solar system is very low. The chance that someone is listening is even lower. And besides that, our race uses radiowaves to communicate over distances. Other races don't necesarly use the same waves, or even emw's.

Also remeber a theory in our theorys. As matter aproaches the speed of light, time slows down. So, it wouldn't be much time to them anyways, if they travel using physics. Remeber, physics is the motion of mater by exertion of forces. So any theory presented in physics pretains to physics related motion only.

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 21st Mar 2006 23:02
Quote: "If we based all of our science on religion, we'd still think the sun and stars revolved around the flat earth and the moon was made of cheese."


Actually, the Bible teaches the Earth is round, and that it is not an Earth centered universe. It mentions nothing about a cheese moon either.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 21st Mar 2006 23:23
Back in the day (medieval times and whatnot), the Church (as an organization), was very adamant about this stuff (well, everything except the cheese moon thing). They had people exiled/ kicked out of the faith for saying anything other than the world was flat and the universe circled around us. Take Galileo and Copernicus for example. In their day, they got into serious trouble with the Catholic church for promoting the "theory" that the earth revolved around the sun... not the other way around (note that it was only a theory because the church didn't believe it). I'm pretty sure Galileo served a life sentence in prison because of this "theory." It wasn't until after (or maybe during) the Renaissance (sp?) that the church officially recognized that the earh was round, the heavens didn't revolve around us, or that the moon wasn't, in fact, made of cheese (okay, I made that cheese bit up ).

The point I'm trying to make here is that the church tends to change it's "official" stance on certain topics at their liking. When scientists prove that evolution is a fact and the church accepts that as fact, then they'll promote it. When the church sees a googly-eyed space monster from the Planet Telex they'll change their position on extraterrestrial life, too (not that it'll matter at that point, because they'll probably already be harvesting brains by the time the memo reaches the cardinals and priests and all that). The real question is, if the church decided tomorrow that evolution was "in," would people still refuse to believe it? And if they refused to believe in evolution after that point, would they be less devoted to their religious beliefs, or would the church?


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Les Horribres
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Posted: 21st Mar 2006 23:46
hmm... 169 posts... that is 13^2... this topic is cursed!

Yeah, you are probally right. But the difference between then and now was the power the church was given.

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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 00:24
Exactly, which brings us right back to the separation of church and state, and the precise reason why I don't think religion should influence/ interfere with that which our schools teach


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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 00:31
Quote: "But there isn't really any science in creationism, and that's my only real problem with it."


Well there isn't any religion in evolution or atheism either--- see *my* point now? It's polar opposite of what you were saying. Therefore it's not infringing upon anti-creationists "religion" per se if it's taught in school. Oh well.

Quote: "The point I'm trying to make here is that the church tends to change it's "official" stance on certain topics at their liking."


Well when you say "the church" you're talking about Catholicism, and you can't stick all Christians and Creationists in that boat Even Muslims are "Creationists" per se, and you couldn't exactly call them part of "the church" in your example hehe.

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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 02:04
@VR2-
Quote: "Not quite sure what that means but Energy and Matter can and are converted to each other all the time. There is a famous equation that describes this "


I'm saying simply that if matter were accelerated to the speed of light and became energy, it would have been destroyed. There is no way for us to convert it back to what it was before. Matter and energy can be converted from one form to another, but I don't want to confuse anyone into thinking that a car can turn into a beam of light back into a car.

If a space car collided with a body of anti-matter the same mass, both masses would be converted to pure energy. The energy discharge would be enormous, and would shoot out all over the place. Our little space car would be gone forever. That's not to say somewhere down the road a massive amount of energy could form a small bit of matter, but it sure wouldn't be the space car.


Okay, as far as creationism and atheism - dogma really annoys me, either way. There is far too much evidence for evolution to be ignored. By the same token, religion is not something that you should mess with.

Atheists and Christians are both trying to win this battle. Atheists want to leave no room for religion, and religious zealots want a literal interpretation of the bible. Most people simply don't feel that strongly about the issue, it's just an outspoken few.

Here's the point - it's perfectly acceptable for Christains to believe in evolution. Who's to say what seven days was to God? God could have said "Let there be man!" and we slowly, over millions of years, rose up from the mud, going through many evolutionary stages along the way. A lump of clay is not transformed instantly into a statue, perhaps humans were not either.

I'm not saying that's right, or that is even what I believe, but it certainly allows science and religion to work more closely together.

Church has historically opposed any advances in science. Science continues to advance, now as always. I don't think that a showdown is good. It will just alienate people.

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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 02:15 Edited at: 22nd Mar 2006 02:21
Quote: "What do you mean by that? The big bang theory doesn't exist because Christians exist, and I'm 100% positive that people who are deeply religious, I mean "hardcore" religious, don't believe in the big bang. And we have archeology, which gives you a much more vivid image of the past than any book from the era, including the bible and other religious documents. If we based all of our science on religion, we'd still think the sun and stars revolved around the flat earth and the moon was made of cheese."

I'm a christian and I believe that the Big Bang theory could very well have caused the creation of the universe, but I believe that God caused it if it did happen. Just because someone is a christian doesn't mean they are an idiot and don't take science into account. In the past science has been very good at proving ideas to be wrong or correct, although there are some things that cannot be proven. Like I said before, I am a christian and I also believe that evolution exists, I don't think it occurs as fast as some people believe, but I think its there. Scientificaly you can't prove that any religion is wrong or right. There is nothing I can say to you using science that could leave you with the only explanation of a God being present, you have to believe what you want. Also, don't stereotype people according to their religion, you obviously don't know what everyone thinks, you have already made that clear.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 02:42
Quote: "Also, don't stereotype people according to their religion, you obviously don't know what everyone thinks, you have already made that clear."

I think you're the only person who didn't get what I was saying there. by "hardcore religious" I'm talking about fundamentalists who think books about science should be burned (the "moral majority" christians). At any rate, I didn't mean to offend you (or any other christians for that matter), I was just pointing out that science could, would, and has existed without religion, and more often than not, it's better off without it.

Quote: "Well when you say "the church" you're talking about Catholicism, and you can't stick all Christians and Creationists in that boat Even Muslims are "Creationists" per se, and you couldn't exactly call them part of "the church" in your example hehe."

Good point. But the catholic church is usually the one that makes the most fuss about it. It seems to me that it's usually the hardcore fundamentalist christians who want evolution banned in schools and all that... besides Farrakhan (who might just be a new york figure, I dunno), I haven't heard too many muslims arguing about this. About the other thing, I understand what you're saying, but I honestly think evolution should be tought in school, and creationism should be tought in church (if they want to), and the moon-cheese thing should be seriously investigated by NASA, who refused to reply to my onslaught of e-mails relating to that subject (pfft, they think they know everything!)

The evolution issue tends to get to me because I never understood why people felt creationism should be taught in school. There's no science involved in it, just faith, and to teach creationism in school would be an attempt to brainwash people into believing in god, and I think people should be free to choose what they believe in. Unless it's one of those cult-ish religions, like the Jonestown thing, the Hale-Bopp Nike people, or those friggin' Jehovah's Witnesses No offense to those of you who drink Kool Aid as a religious rite, wait for comets to take you to heaven, or refuse to give blood transfusions to your dying infant


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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 02:47
Don't worry I'm not offended, I was just trying to make a point.

I'm not who you think...
Agent Dink
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 03:31
Quote: "Who's to say what seven days was to God?"


Well, lets look at it this way. The Bible as I believe is 100% God breathed. Certainly it's writers were people, but it was God who inspired and told them what to write. Every word. So, if we see "day" written in Genesis, and we see "day" written in any other book, and "day" in one of these other books is used in the normal context of a 24 hour period, then certainly I believe the creation took 7 days.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 04:46
I'm with Curtis on this one... seven days? Even Shaft took a couple of minutes to climb a fire escape to meet with the ladies and take down the man. I really don't think everything in the bible was meant to be taken literally... like almost every other work of the time, it's filled with metaphors and symbolism. Not that I'm saying it shouldn't have a belief system based on it, but I think it might be taken too seriously.

In college I wrote a paper for a politics class about religion, called "James and the Giant Religion." In it, the world was wiped out by plague and nuclear winter, and in the aftermath, people started praying to the book "James and the Giant Peach," because they were starving and the premise of the book involves globetrotting in a huge piece of fruit. It satisfied the needs of the people at the time, and because it was such an inspiration and so motivational to them, they tought their children about it, and a few generations later, it had molded into a religion. But some other people found "Atlas Shrugged" and started carpet bombing the Peach people, and another world war broke out.

Yeah, that had nothing to do with this discussion really, but it was a cool paper hehe. I should dig up the disc it's hiding on and post it... pretty funny I think


"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Paddy's day all year long" ~ Christopher, The Sopranos
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 06:26 Edited at: 22nd Mar 2006 06:28
Quote: "The Bible as I believe is 100% God breathed. "


No doubt. However, if people are given words or images that they do not fully understand, they will interpret them in a way that they do understand. I'm willing to bet that there are many things in the Bible like that. After all, the earth is over 4 billion years old.

I wrote a paper on religion that I was pretty proud of a couple of terms ago, "The Divine Answer". It was more of a technical discussion of world religions, exploring the common traits between them and establishing religious constants. I suppose that no one can appreciate it quite like I can


VR2
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 11:36
Quote: "VR2, what are you talking about? Sending a radio signal is very ineffiecant. The chance of a single radio wave hitting a planet in a particular solar system is very low."


I know but you don't send a single wave, you have a transmitter that sends out a constant signal in ALL directions (the bubble).

However, you do have a good point when it comes to "Omni" as opposed to "Directional" radio transmissions, as stated on the SETI wiki:
Quote: "For us to detect an alien civilization 100 light years away that is broadcasting "omnidirectionally", that is, in all directions, the aliens would have to be using a transmitter power equivalent to several thousand times the entire current power-generating capacity of the entire Earth.

It is much more effective in terms of communication to generate a narrow-beam signal whose "effective radiated power" is very high along the path of the beam, but negligible everywhere else.
"


So the narrow beam would need less power to generate but would be MUCH more difficult for us to detect, perhaps another reason why we've not yet been successful in finding a repeating signal. There was excitement in 1977 with the famous "Wow" transmission but it was never seen again. If it WAS from ET, *perhaps* the source of the transmission was sending it out in "sweeping" directions and we will pick it up again from that location, at that frequency, at regular but lengthy intervals.

Quote: "The chance that someone is listening is even lower. And besides that, our race uses radiowaves to communicate over distances. Other races don't necesarly use the same waves, or even emw's."


No, they don't as there is no way to know for sure what frequencies aliens might be using.

However you might guess that they would use 1.420 gigahertz as this is the frequency emitted by neutral hydrogen.

Again from the wiki:
Quote: "Radio astronomers often search the sky on this frequency to map the great hydrogen clouds in our galaxy. Transmitting a communications signal near this "marker" frequency would improve the chances of its detection by accident. This frequency is sometimes called the "water hole" by SETI enthusiasts."
Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 18:25
Quote: "I'm talking about fundamentalists who think books about science should be burned (the "moral majority" christians)"


No, hehehe.. The "Hollywood" Christians are bible-bashers who hate science--- in reality they're the minority who speak really loud. I haven't met ONE Christian who thinks books about science should be burned

Matt Rock
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 00:22
Quote: "No, hehehe.. The "Hollywood" Christians are bible-bashers who hate science--- in reality they're the minority who speak really loud. I haven't met ONE Christian who thinks books about science should be burned "


See, normal christians should be more vocal with their opinions. Liberals like me tend to view all christians the same way because of the Jerry Falwells and Billy Grahams.

Someone told me today that there's a group of "right-wing christians," the Moral Majority types, who just set up shop here in New York and according to this friend, they want to push New York State schools to teach creationism or intelligent design. How much do you want to bet they'll be laughed out of here Lots of groups have tried it here but our education department won't even consider it... NY is a breeding ground for agnostics and aethiests, not to mention the 12-15 million NYS (Not NYC) residents who are of some other faith that isn't christianity... it simply wouldn't fly here. They know that if they stopped teaching evolution in our schools, parents would yank their kids out of public schools in a New York Minute because it's a topic that about 8 out of 10 NY'ers are fairly adamant about (yes, I made up that statistic, lol). I think I'm so opinionated about this stuff because I grew up around people with that mentality. I think there's a relationship between geography and religion... like, certain areas are more religious than other areas all around the world. It seems obvious but watch... someone is going to argue with me on that, hehe.


"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Paddy's day all year long" ~ Christopher, The Sopranos
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 00:30
Quote: "See, normal christians should be more vocal with their opinions. Liberals like me tend to view all christians the same way because of the Jerry Falwells and Billy Grahams."

You only hear the activist Christians talking, and it gives the impression that all Christians believe the same things. That's simply not true. I don't know a single person who believes that science books should be burned. However, people who are satisfied with the current system aren't going to speak out, only the ones who want a change. Activists who believe in an issue will do whatever they can to be heard.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 01:12
It's hard to respond to any of this without getting the thread locked. So...

I was looking up the Wow signal instead. A set of digits was recorded... 6EQUJ5 the digits relate to the frequencies recieved over a set time period. They are totally man made digits, so I was trying to untangle them, see if there is a message in those numbers. The real frequencies were...

6,14,26,30,19,5

Look them up for a more accurate example because I missed out the floats.

Can anything be made from these numbers?

Pincho.

VR2
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 02:03 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2006 02:47
Not really, all those numbers relate only to the STRENGTH of the signal at 12 second intervals and they go from 0 to 9 and then from A to Z giving a 36 point scale of strength. Z being highest.

As you can see if you scan across the sheet, mostly you get 1's or 2's, the occasional 3, but there was this signal that went upto a "U", hence the "Wow!" (unless Jerry Ehman thought it was interstellar spam and leet speak for S3xy g1rls").

However, you can see from the numbers that the signal gradually gained in strength and then gradually faded out, which was consistent with an extra-terrestrial signal since the antenna was in a fixed position and was just rotating with the earth, thus the source was fixed against the cosmic background and not in local orbit or a plane or anything like that.

There had been an event like that 10 years before but that time the event reoccured when we looked again. That was the discovery of a brand new phenomenon called Pulsars.

This time though, there was no real explanation (except for the unthinkable).

If you search around enough you will find that most all plausible explanations for the Wow! signal have been exhausted, and you are in the territory of "Space junk at least 250,000 miles out (about the moon's distance) reflecting a signal that originated on earth which just happened to be at the optimum interstellar frequency of 1.42Ghz, which, incedentally is a banned frequency (for anything other than that purpose) for just that reason.". Indeed, it would appear that the most likely explanation is that it really was a message from ET. It just couldn't be proven.

In addition, its determined that the signal lasted no longer than 24 hours since the second antenna, located next to the first did not pick up the signal and the signal was not there the day before. Very weird indeeed but would be explained by the transmitter being turned off or turned away (possibly revolving).

The signal met all the criteria for being confirmation of contact with ET except for one major thing - it was never spotted again.

Although this has relegated it to a footnote of history, it also confirms its "unnatural-ness" as its hard to imagine any natural cosmic occurance that would only send a signal for such a short time and then stop abbruptly.

It is most unfortunate that the tech of the day did not allow for the signal (all 72 seconds of it) to be recorded. Still, that's hardly ET's fault.

Its also worth bearing in mind that when we've sent signals out to the stars (intentional, direction signals) then we do so for only a short time, we send the message then turn off the transmitter (or use it for other things). I've found records of us doing this in 1974, 1999 and 2003 - its not something we do routinely.

All in all, a very suspicious event indeed, and just as much a mystery today as it was at the time.

If anyone has heard of a good (non ET) theory for this event that does not involve "secret USAF spaceships" or moon distance space junk then I'd love to hear it!

It goes without saying that as far as SETI goes, this is by far the best candidate for the real thing there's ever been.

As far as I can tell, in the near 30 years since, no one has actually looked continuously at that spot (in saggittarious) and tuned into the same frequency for more than a period of 14 hours. I believe the major reasons for this is that its located in the Southern Hemishpere and telescope time comes at a premium.

And just for fun, how about a story of an Earth like planet found a couple of months ago in...you guessed it, the constallation of Saggittarious: http://www.llnl.gov/pao/news/news_releases/2006/NR-06-01-08.html
Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 02:34
Quote: "Billy Grahams."


Well I have an incredible amount of respect for Billy Graham, so I don't see what your problem with him is. In fact he's advised the last, what, six U.S. Presidents?

Judging an entire religion based on the loudest talkers is like judging Islam based on suicide bombers and Osama. Not cool. It's unfortunate that in today's world it's politically incorrect to stereotype muslims, yet perfectly acceptable to stereotype Christians. Sad, really.

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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 03:37
I agree and understand now, and for that stereotype I'm sorry. About Billy Graham: My mom (possibly the biggest liberal I know, definitely moreso than myself (if that's believable, lol)) always rants and raves about how Graham is pro-creationism, pro-life, and pro-everything else my family tends to go to protests against, so I always just assumed I shouldn't like him. Plus, he seems to always be on television precisely when I don't want him to be, hehe. Then again I've never sat through one of his TV specials so I might be wrong about that stuff... my mom tends to be sensational about things. (not to make this a political thread!) When Bush won the second term, she was like "he cheated! he cheated!" and while it's pretty easy to argue that he lost the first election, I'll be the first liberal to soberly admit we lost that one But that's all I'll say about that, hehe. Don't want to cause an uproar.

Here's a good question, and a decent attempt at turning this back toward the alien thing: Do you think, if there is intelligent life (and yes, I think there has to be some out there) on a different planet, do they experience the same wars, uprisings, and all that with their religions? Do the three-eyed aliens hate the one-eyed aliens because they only have one eye, and visa-versa? And have the four-eyed aliens been completely genocided because of how they look and what faith they believe in? Or do you think only a human could be that stupid


"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Paddy's day all year long" ~ Christopher, The Sopranos
Saikoro
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 03:42
I think it's funny how you can have something of a political or religious debate if you say you don't mean for it to be a debate

And the meek shall inherit the Earth...
Matt Rock
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 03:49
Debating isn't the problem... it's when these debates/ discussions turn into a flame war that it becomes a problem. But (somehow) this thread has survived through religious talk without anyone resorting to a kintergarden mentality with flaming. As long as it stays like this, a responsible discussion/ debate as opposed to people bashing each other and comparing ******* sizes, I don't think it should get locked, and I doubt it would be... the mods here are cooler than that.

What is that cat-thing from in your avatar btw?


"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Paddy's day all year long" ~ Christopher, The Sopranos
Saikoro
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 03:53
Yeah, thank either God or evolutionism for cool mods

And the avatar is obviously the cat from Trigun.

And the meek shall inherit the Earth...
Matt Rock
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 03:57
Ohhh... I knew I'd seen it somewhere. Everyone thinks my avatar is a cat, not here but the other places I use it... it makes me very angry and hostile, lol. It's the Radiohead bear (derr)


"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Paddy's day all year long" ~ Christopher, The Sopranos
Saikoro
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 04:01
Oh, it's a good thing I didn't say "And where is your cat avatar from?" like I had planned to.

And the meek shall inherit the Earth...
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 04:08
I've been a bit surprised and pleased with this thread. It quickly turned to religion, but didn't melt down. The mods shut it down when it decomposes.

I might not agree with Billy Graham about a lot of things, but I do respect him. He is a religious icon in America. He is very good at what he does, and very devoted. I can't take anything from him.

Quote: "Do you think, if there is intelligent life (and yes, I think there has to be some out there) on a different planet, do they experience the same wars, uprisings, and all that with their religions? "

I suspect that the result of conscience and intelligence will be roughly the same, despite physical differences.

Look at the universe - every part of it is unique. However, every part orders itself in much the same way as every other part. If life has formed on another planet, it most likely did so with water and carbon, because of the chemical properties of those. If intelligent life spawned from that, then they too were probably separated geographically and developed differing cultures. Animals, and humans, are territorial as it facilitates resource gathering and survival.

If different cultures developed, then it would be reasonable to believe that conflicts would arise when those cultures clashed. But, as technology advanced, things would undoubtably change, as they are changing now.

Now, instead of being confined to the teachings of my own community, I am connected to the entire world. I can debate game making and religion with people from all over the world. More people now see the world more clearly than ever before. I believe that this will continue to develop.

So, I think that conflicts would from a lack of communication. But what if some type of life evolved that was joined in a way that we cannot imagine, a collective of some type. There are so many possibilities that could easily alter mankind's isolated development model.


Matt Rock
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 04:20
I read somewhere that a possible stage in human evolution (if indeed you believe in it) would be a human that was a blend of all ethnicities... white, black, asian, hispanic, arabic, and all the other ones I'm missing. And that these people (probably a zillion years down the line) would probably not experience racism because, well, why would they? But in my opinion, if you were to make every human being the same race, vote for the same political parties, believe in the same religion, etc., people would just find some other reason to hate each other. If you look at the human race's track record, we've got a lot of experience in hating one another


"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Paddy's day all year long" ~ Christopher, The Sopranos
Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 05:00
Quote: "Do the three-eyed aliens hate the one-eyed aliens because they only have one eye, and visa-versa? And have the four-eyed aliens been completely genocided because of how they look and what faith they believe in? Or do you think only a human could be that stupid"


I would think so. Even animals tend to segregate with similar likenesses (if I'm not mistaken). Not sure how far down the animal line this goes.

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