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Geek Culture / Bot Infestation (and a TGC webring)

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 02:00
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After launching my website a short while back, and after struggling with getting a forum up and running, I've been confronted by a bot problem. It's relatively new... they mostly started showing up in the past week or so. And it isn't out of control yet, but I want to stop it before it does get out of control. I'm using a PHP (PHPBB) service that requires registration and the use of a Captcha to sign up, but still they're getting through. I don't want to make it inconvenient or annoying for members to use my site's forum... and when it comes to internet programming and web design I'm the lowest common denominator. Does anyone know of a simple method I could employ to keep bots out, beyond erasing their threads and banning their IP's as soon as they show up?

On a somewhat-unrelated sidenote, if any of you guys have websites and you want to do a link exchange, drop me a line. Dabip and I are linked up and we're looking for others to join our little TGC webring as well. Hopefully it'll help everyone involved in some way, although I'm not sure just how helpful it'll end up being yet. At any rate, drop me a line if you want to do a link exchange.


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Zappo
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 02:22
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The default Captcha image production is actually quite easy to get round. If you do a search there are programs which look at the image and read the text automatically. I suggest using a different method if possible.
There is a nice plugin for PhpBB which lets admins see a list of new accounts so you can tick the ones to delete or allow. I can't remember what its called (I write my own forum software now) but I am sure you can find it. A good thing to look for is the users website field. The bots usually put in some obvious porn site so you can tell a mile away if they are bogus.
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hyrichter
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 02:24 Edited at: 15th Dec 2006 02:24
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Unfortunately, PHPBB is about the worst (or best, if you're a spammer) forum system for getting spammed. It's open source, so people have written bots that know how to work around the registration system, etc. to dump spam on your site.

You could try enabling the feature where you have to type the text from an image in or something to see if that helps keep down the bot registrations. You might be better off using something like Invision Power Board or VBulletin. I have no experience with either. I just wrote my own forum when I needed one. However, that's not exactly an easy task (just ask Rich. )

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 02:25
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I have a feature like that on my forum administration panel, and it's definitely been handy at keeping some of these bots out, but I'm hoping to keep them from getting in in the first place. This is probably top-secret or something, but how does Apollo keep the bots out? I don't think I've ever seen one here.


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hyrichter
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 02:28
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Quote: "This is probably top-secret or something, but how does Apollo keep the bots out? I don't think I've ever seen one here.
"


Well, Apollo isn't open source, so it would be much more difficult to spot a security flaw. It wouldn't really be worth someone's time to try to find an exploit where it would only be able to spam one site. PHPBB is all over everywhere, so you can bet there are lots of programs for spamming it. There was a bit of spam on these forums for a while until Rich implemented the newbie post moderating feature. I don't know if the spam was from bots or not, though.

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Jess T
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 02:31
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Quote: "Apollo isn't open source"


That, and we have the Newbie system... Any newly registered users post will NOT show unless a moderator allows it.
Thus, we can screen new users and kill them off before they ever get to the publics eye (if need-be, of course).

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 02:34
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Does anyone know if there's a mod like that for PHPBB? I'd love to have the ability to screen all of my new users, but I can't find anything for it on their site . It almost makes me want to find a new forum hosting service, but something that I can use without losing my current database, so the small handful of real, human users that I have aren't lost if I switch over.


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Jess T
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 02:39
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Well, the worst that will happen when you transfer is that you'll have to manually copy over the MD5 hash's and user-names.
If you've only got a few people, then it shouldn't take too long. But if you've got more than a few, a nice little PHP app should be able to do the work for you

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 02:44
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I started having some bot problems on my site's forum. I killed 4 or 5 accounts that were generated. Then, a couple days later, I logged into my forum to see a bunch of numbers scrolling down the page ("matrix" style) and a message saying "This site hacked by ???". I took down my forums and haven't bothered to put them up again.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 03:18
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Quote: "There was a bit of spam on these forums for a while until Rich implemented the newbie post moderating feature. I don't know if the spam was from bots or not, though"

nope, not bots, it was noobs, noobs for sure.



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Matt Rock
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 04:58
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Awesome, I have Dabip and Jess linked up now. Any other takers?

Yikes Wolf, that totally sucks so if you ditch the bots, they hack you, else they just overrun/ overpower your site . It's sort of lose-lose isn't it? And I'm not a very good web designer, so if someone really wanted to I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to hack my site . Can't win.


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Krilik
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 05:32
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You could send out confirmation emails before the user is able to post. I think phpBB allows you to do that.
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Jeku
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 06:04
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Link exchange? Where do I sign? http://www.automatongames.com

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 06:56 Edited at: 15th Dec 2006 06:59
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I'll add you right now Jake... don't forget to add me! www.misoftstudios.com

PS.- Thank you Jess for using the right grammar when spelling MISoft Dabip did it "Misoft" hehe, not a big deal or anything, just cool that you knew that "MI" actually stands for something

edit: omg! Wordtrix did 40k downloads?!? That's awesome! Here I am bragging about Cheney Hunter breaking 2600 lol.


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Jeku
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 09:12
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Done and done

Although with the current style of my site, the links are all in uppercase so there's no distinction between MISoft and MISOFT. Hope that's okay with you

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Kentaree
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 10:45
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Matt, we were discussing this on another forum recently (also a PHPBB one ) and there's a very simple one that most bots wont recognise. Ask a simple question on registration, ie, "What year is it" and if the user types the correct answer they can register. Because the question is custom, a bot will never be able to answer it, unless the spammer writes groundbreaking AI

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xtom
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 14:38
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That's a good idea.


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adr
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 14:59
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I remember reading an article on "cultural captchas". They suggested a bank of randomly generated questions, but they would have to be "dynamic" - if you had 50 questions, all of which could have one answer, that would be no good.

As Kentaree said, you can ask questions which will be obvious like what "year is it?", but you can also spice it up a little.

You could show a photo, and ask a subjective question about it. "What colour features the most in this image?". I like the idea of doing "odd-one-out" questions. You could group together say, 20 objects. 15 of them are "ok" and 5 are the "odd" ones, so that the questions are fairly random, but the answer should still be obvious. You could do that for about 100 groups of objects, and you have a very varied captcha system. One step even further would be to generate an image based "odd one out". Just layer together a picture of an apple, a banana, a pear and a dog. Doing an image recognition system would be much harder than a letter recognition system.

Unfortunately, all these options require work on your part.


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Peter H
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 15:20 Edited at: 15th Dec 2006 15:21
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yeah, i had the same problem on my old site... i just gave up eventually (since the site was about to expire anyway)

i would link to you on my new site that I'm almost done with... but.. umm ... it seems to be down right now... so I'll wait until it's up before i try to do any exchanges

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Tom J
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 16:48 Edited at: 15th Dec 2006 17:21
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Matt Rock (and Dabip if you're reading this) : I've linked to your sites .

I will link to other people's sites in a moment.
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VR2
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 17:24
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Am I the only person who looked at this thread thinking it would be a discussion of Thread Worms?
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 19:45
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@ Jeku: That's fine it's better to be MISOFT than MISoft I think, the distinction is still there and left to interpretation rather than being stated as a single word... if that makes any sense hehe. At any rate, I linked you up last night, and I'm going to link up colusseum in a few minutes .

I like these ideas a lot. They'll require work (and quite a bit of learning on my part) but I think it'll be worth it if it'll help me get rid of these stinkin' bots. The picture idea would be neat to try I think, mainly because I'm a visual person and the site could use some more imagery.

An un-related question about HTML that just crossed my mind: is there some way to have a link bring up a random web page within a site? Or a way to bring up a randomly selected portion of text? When I release my next game (if I can get the darn thing finished), I need to set something up where if someone purchases the game, they're given a randomly-selected registration key from a list of possible keys. Sorry for spinning off in yet another direction and turning this into a three-way thread, but I didn't feel it was necessary to start a whole new thread for this question I did my bit to conserve energy for the day lol.


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Peter H
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 20:09
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i'm pretty sure you could do that in PHP. for instance i wrote a thing a long time ago that loaded a random image, shouldn't be that much different...

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UFO
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 00:06
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Hey, for the webring, I suggest having a separate webpage for it, so people can link to it instead of having to continuously check your page for more links to add to the list. I made a page as an example:
http://ufogames.galekus.com/webring.html
So people can link to just that instead of everyone else's links and there will still be traffic between sites.

Just an idea.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 00:29 Edited at: 16th Dec 2006 00:29
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It would make life easier. But who could host it in neutrality?

What would be definitely cool: if TGC actually had a page like that I doubt it would happen but I'd like to hear what Rich & co. thinks of the idea. For me it's no big deal, I have the "MILinks" page on my site for all the links and it's pretty well-organized, but then again it would be way easier if we just had one unified page for the TGC webring.

Whaddya say TGC? (couldn't find angelic puppy-eyes lol)


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hyrichter
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 02:41 Edited at: 16th Dec 2006 02:42
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Quote: "An un-related question about HTML that just crossed my mind: is there some way to have a link bring up a random web page within a site? Or a way to bring up a randomly selected portion of text? When I release my next game (if I can get the darn thing finished), I need to set something up where if someone purchases the game, they're given a randomly-selected registration key from a list of possible keys."


Not exactly HTML, but PHP will do that just fine:


Edit: Matt, you really should learn a little PHP if you haven't. It'll make your web development life much, much easier.

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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 02:53 Edited at: 16th Dec 2006 02:53
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The phpBB support forums are the proper place for your first request, not these forums

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Zaibatsu
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 02:53
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Quote: "On a somewhat-unrelated sidenote, if any of you guys have websites and you want to do a link exchange, drop me a line."


I'll keep that in mind. I'm getting my own website soon.

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TDK
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 04:25
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I get quite a lot on my forums, (particularly blogspot.com site applications with gmail accounts), but they only get as far as registering as I activate all accounts manually - rather than using auto-activation.

I also have an open non-members board where anyone can post and put in a sticky on there that anyone who applies for registration MUST post on the non-members board as well, using the same name they applied to registered with.

Obviously spam-bots can't read stickies so when new applications drop in my inbox and there aren't any new posts it's just a case of deleting the new accounts.

As such, there are never any spam posts on the forum for the users to see.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 06:36
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Thanks hyrichter. I agree that I need to learn PHP, I'll probably start with the basics after I get these two games released. It would be nice to make the website do all of the things that I want it to do and not be bound by the (limited) capabilities of Nvu. Databases are particularly interesting to me... learning how to use those would be more than enough reason for me to buy a book on the subject.

I like that system TDK, I might try something along those lines. Eventually I want to make my own forum program, but until then, I'm stuck to the conformities of PHPBB .


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 07:40
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What do you suppose the legality of something like this would be

Quote: " WARNING, This site generates it's income from paid advertising and as such any advertisements placed within our forums may be charged an advertising fee of $5.00 US for each and every advertisement posted, at this sites discretion. If you, an employee, an automated ad bot, or ANYONE except this sites owners place an Ad on this site YOU WILL BE BILLED!!!"


Just wondering about if you could set up such a notice, then if they do post they will have left a link to their site and you can send them a nice bill

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 07:46
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hehe it would definitely send the message across, but I'm not sure if it's legal or not. I would possibly be in the right though... if the notice is obviously apparent, borderline in-your-face, then maybe I could get away with actually charging people for it. If I did that, then I wouldn't have a problem with the bots lol, not until the site started picking up registered human users anyway. Heck, if they're making me money, why not


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 08:19
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You could put it with one of those "I accept" buttons prior to registration. Normal users would understand it was just a way to combat the spam.

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Tom J
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 09:57
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Quote: "But who could host it in neutrality?"


Why not make a new site to host the webring?

(A freewebs site for example)

And to make the site more neutral you could make it so that every member of the webring is capable of logging onto the site to edit it.
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Peter H
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 15:10
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that's just screaming to be abused though (BlackOut site anyone? )

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Tom J
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 15:31 Edited at: 16th Dec 2006 19:14
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Quote: "that's just screaming to be abused though"


Fair enough, how about only a couple of moderators are able to edit the site , that should avoid spamming and stuff like that.

I'm currently making a site to host the webring:

www.dbwebring.co.nr

edit: The sites up now, apologies if I missed any links on the webring page.
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 19:59
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I love the effort and initiative, but a few personal opinions about it. First off, I think the sites in the webring should be more prevalent, maybe on the first page or something. If it starts to get out of hand (like we get tons of sites) maybe they could be organized somehow, alphabetically or something, I dunno. Secondly, in terms of the rules, what if one of us releases a game with nudity in it? Do the rules break into the games we release, or just the website they're advertised/ sold on? Also, we might want to refine the definition of "under construction" somehow, before some nosebleeder says "but how much of the site do I need up and running?" Last but not least, should we limit the number of sites someone can submit to the webring? For instance, I might put up subdomains for each game I'm doing. Maybe we should have a rule that specifically prevents us from submitting sub-domains and whatnot, just to avoid confusion. Just thinking unnecessarily ahead as always


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Tom J
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 20:05
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Looks like you found some potential flaws.

I'll sort out any problems when I get the chance to... also if there's anything you want to change yourself I can always email you the password for logging into the sites account.
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Diggsey
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 20:18 Edited at: 16th Dec 2006 20:21
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I've added the sites listed on Gaming Colosseum's site to mine

Unless there are many more that I haven't seen, I don't think we're quite ready for organisation yet!

edit:
could a mod plz delete my other thread about this
I like the idea of a central website.


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 20:40
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lol have you seen my website? I'm the least-qualified person here to make any changes hehe.


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Tom J
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 22:14
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I've changed the site quite a lot since my last post, it's structured differently and is more organized. The site also has a different template, the old one had lots of unnecessary bits on it like a useless navigation bar and news etc.

http://www.dbwebring.co.nr
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 22:57
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I like this format more. And by saying "we need to approve you," it gives us some leeway on the content of each site, which will definitely come in handy at some point down the road. Great work


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UFO
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Posted: 17th Dec 2006 16:18
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I really like the site. Nice job. I have one suggestion though:

It would be nice to have an icon to link it to the webring. Otherwise, it would be alot harder manually adding links to your website every time someone adds more. Something like this: except with a transparent background and a GIF image, etc.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th Dec 2006 19:22 Edited at: 17th Dec 2006 20:52
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I suppose I could see that being a problem for people who don't use text-based links. Personally, I prefer hypertext, it's easier to do text than it is to play around with the size of an image so that it fits in well with everything else... but I'm using Nvu and can't program web stuff, so that would make sense lol.

I definitely agree that if there's an image, it should have a transparent background. Maybe just the db pyramid with some sort of webring logo above or below it? At any rate, it would definitely help make it work with any color scheme. As it is, it only works with the few of us who use black backgrounds.

Edit: I think I may have solved the bot problem, using a mod (and thank you quoththeraven for the link). It's called "The Humanizer." It basically asks "are you human?" during the registration process. Allegedly, most bots aren't equipped to answer this question, and don't expect to see it, so when they encounter it they fail repeatedly to register for forum posting. I guess only time will tell if it actually works or not. At first there was a problem with it, I copied a piece of code but left out a sole comma, and so for about 20 +/- minutes no one could register. There was a guest on the site when I did that... I'm hoping it wasn't a potential new forum member . It was more than likely Chris Franklin, we've been talking on there lately, but if it was actually someone else trying to get into the forum... sorry! But it works now


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Jess T
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Posted: 18th Dec 2006 14:02 Edited at: 18th Dec 2006 14:10
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How's about this...



To add it as a link, use the following HTML (changing the path of the image as necessary):


If you want to use it on your site, upload it and use it from your own server. That way, if I make any changes to it, you keep the version you have.

Jess.

[EDIT]
And, if you want it in different colours, I have the GIMP project file, so it's quick and easy to alter
[/EDIT]

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Tom J
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Posted: 18th Dec 2006 14:30 Edited at: 18th Dec 2006 14:30
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The idea of using an image for a link is good and I really like your image Jess T.



It's nice and easy for somebody to put this at the top of their sites webpage and should help to increase traffic. I'll put it on my site (Gamingc.co.nr not the webring) in a moment.
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UFO
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Posted: 18th Dec 2006 22:33
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Yay. That is a cool icon. I added it to all the pages in my website . Too bad I only get around 4 unique hits a day :'-(

Visit my website!
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Jess T
Retired Moderator
21
Years of Service
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Joined: 20th Sep 2003
Location: Over There... Kablam!
Posted: 18th Dec 2006 23:41
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Can you add a section to the webring site that goes something like:

-------------------
Link to the webring

If you'd like to be part of the webring, even if your site is not listed here, then you can link back to us from your site.

To do this, simply add the following code to your website:

<a href='http://www.dbwebring.co.nr' title='TGC Web-ring'>
<img src='http://www.dbwebring.co.nr/tgc_webring.png' alt='TGC Web-ring' />
</a>
-------------------

That way, people can link to us without them having to go through this forum post to get the image, etc

Jess.

Nintendo DS & Dominos :: DS Dominos
http://jt0.org
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dab
20
Years of Service
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Joined: 22nd Sep 2004
Location: Your Temp Folder!
Posted: 19th Dec 2006 03:57
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Yah, Sorry I guess that I haven't been around. The power's out at my house, and right now I'm running the computer on a generator. So, I should get off soon. BUt hopefully by friday I'll have power again. Grr. Washington Weather!!

Oh yah, I was going to make my list of Friends randomly generate a few if it gets too long.

Take heed, never take advantage of the things you need, never let your self be overcome by greed. Walk a strigh line, pick up your speed and try. Everyone deserves a piece of the pie By: Shaggy
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Michael S
18
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Joined: 2nd Apr 2006
Location: Why do you ask?
Posted: 19th Dec 2006 04:11
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I want in on the web ring. http://ninjasoftgames.us.tt

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