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Geek Culture / Questions for Rich, Lee, Jeku

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Michael S
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 06:15 Edited at: 14th Jan 2007 07:23
Hello, I am doing a paper on how violence in video games affects children and I have to interview someone about it. So I thought you guys would be perfect. If you have ever worked for a game company then I would appreciate your answers as well.

Here are the questions:

1. Do you think there should be a law that bans violence in video games?

2. Do you think that there should be a law preventing parents from letting their children from playing violent games?

3. Do you think that parents or the government should determine what people under 18 play?

4. What in your opinion would be a reasonable resolution to this problem? (The dabate that is going on about violent games causing violent behavior.)

5. Do you think violence in games causes kids to be violent?

6. Why do you think parents use violent video games as a scapegoat for the violent behavior of children instead of blaming themselves for something that has happed at school or they may have done?

7. Do you think the current ESRB/PEGI system in place works?

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Jess T
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 06:53 Edited at: 14th Jan 2007 06:55
Quote: "4. What in your opinion would be a reasonable resolution to this problem?"


That doesn't really make sense... What problem? You go on to ask if we think games cause kids to be violent, but you haven't yet established that there is infact a problem within the questions previously asked...

Quote: "6. Why do you think parents use this as a scapegoat"


That question is assuming that a) I think there is violence in video games, and b) that parents are infact using it as a scapegoat for their inadequecies.

Quote: "7. Do you think the current system in place works?"


Which? The ESRB's system, the Wal-Mart system, or Australia's system where they simply don't let certain games be sold here.

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Michael S
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 07:03
I edited it I hope it makes more sense now.

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 07:20
I know your not asking me. However, I feel stongly about what I am about to say. As a player, citizen, and game creator.

Quote: "
1. Do you think there should be a law that bans violence in video games?
"

no. Software are "Poems" in the sense that they are speech. The developer(s) are saying something, and has no right to be made illegal. For America, I find this unconstitutional. Besides, without violence in video games, imagine how else people will get their anger out? Hmm? I can understand with games like GTA, where you can freely shoot, and kill people, however, that game has a rating, and parents have a JOB to make sure that games like that dont fall into the hands of their children.

Quote: "
2. Do you think that there should be a law preventing parents from letting their children from playing violent games?
"

No. If the parents want to let their children play a game like that, then they should let them, however, explain the consequences of immitating, or doing something similiar to that.

Quote: "
3. Do you think that parents or the government should determine what people under 18 play?
"

No. I mean, parents have the right to determine what their kids can play, or cant play. The government has the right to say what can, and can not be sold to minors. However, nothing more.

Quote: "
4. What in your opinion would be a reasonable resolution to this problem? (The dabate that is going on about violent games causing violent behavior.)
"

Quote: "Guns dont kill people. People kill people"

I'm afraid i'm going to have to agree with that gun association place. However, guns should be used for hunting, and war. Not for citizens. (Cops need guns). And so (translated into VG terms), if there is a violent video game, there is no solution other than sitting down with your kids, and telling them the consequences of violence.

Quote: "
5. Do you think violence in games causes kids to be violent?
"

No. Actually, if nothing else, it's the schools. The gangs. The fact that drugs, and weapons are getting sold from within schools. Older people within the schools show bad-influences for the younger people who try to fit in with the older people. Games contribute, no doubt in that. However, their contibution is only like 5%, If that.

Quote: "
6. Why do you think parents use violent video games as a scapegoat for the violent behavior of children instead of blaming themselves for something they may have done?
"

Depends on what the parent has done. Perhaps the parent just likes to play the game? Perhaps the parent is using them as scapegoats? However, it's a psycological reason, and i'm not a therapist.

Quote: "
7. Do you think the current ESRB/PEGI system in place works?
"

In regards to ESRB:
ESRB is a good system. It says that there is violence, and other stuff. Then the buyer should acknowledge that. It works.

-db

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Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 08:36
Why ban something when there is no problem?

A while back Saikoro brought up this subject because he found an article about the truth about violent video games and youth. The article used The Bureau of Justice Statistics own data to prove that video games do not make people more violent... but actually less violent. The truth is violent video games allow us to live out these desires without doing them in real life and hurting others.
The reason why it's a scapegoat is because no parent wants to be blamed for being a bad parent.

Here's the message:
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=95973&b=2

Here's the article:
http://www.gamerevolution.com/features/violence_and_videogames

Here's the page the data came from:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict_c.htm

The image:


I just hope your teacher is ready for the real truth and not the propaganda he/she has been told.
Michael S
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 08:46
Wow thanks man I could use another article

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 08:48
Once upon a time, Rock and Roll was going to send the youths of American to hell. Then, it was rap. Now we love Ozzy and Snoop.

Video games have taken their place now. It's easy to blame something that you don't understand. As the current generation matures and becomes politically active, these concerns will become more realistic.


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 09:09
While I do not want to join in this debate again

Quote: "The article used The Bureau of Justice Statistics own data to prove that video games do not make people more violent... but actually less violent."


Grog I agree wholeheartedly that games do not make people more violent, but neither do I think they make youth less violent. There are alot of reasons for the drop in youth violence, one of which is their ass is glued to the couch playing games now. That data is quite accurate but I think stating it Proves anything other then that violence has decreased is premature.

Quote: "Once upon a time, Rock and Roll was going to send the youths of American to hell. Then, it was rap. Now we love Ozzy and Snoop."


Heck go back further to the devil's tools of Jazz, Swing and Big-Band. Every generation believes that the next generation is doing something that will bring about the end of the world.

BatVink
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 10:22
Statistics, Damn Statistics and Lies.

No amount of statistics on this subject prove anything. Every set is biased in one way or another, as you can see in threads like this. Everyone has an opinion, and thus will search for the data that backs up their cause, conveniently or subconciously ignoring that which contradicts their point.

Equally, actual scenarios don't tell the whole story. You can actually state that a particular incident, murder, car-jacking or whatever could be attributed to a violent game and a highly-suggestible youth. BUT you can't quantify the number of crimes that didn't happen as a result of game-playing. And that is backed-up by the crime bureau stats, but not proven in any way - too many factors not considered.

It's like saying putting porn mags on the top shelf changes the attitude of young people towards buying them. It could actually be because they can't reach them, the space has been filled with Dr Who comics, the average pocket-money went down or somebody just invented a Yo-Yo that everyone has diverted their cash into buying.



Kieran
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 10:58
i think that survey is lame...(no offence)

when im angry i play a video game and curse at the monsters while obliterating them to hell!!!

awesome fun that

well it makes me a happy person afterwards so thats why i love violent games and they make me happy and passive not angry and aggressive

thanks for reading

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 13:24
Actually... I have heard the following:

1) Eventually, certain states will attempt to pass laws making playing video games, the equivalent as looking at *ahem, if your not mature enough, dont read this*
.

2) They are trying to end video games altogether, passing laws which outlaw the creation of video games.

And something else.

Now, I feel that both of those measures are WAY too extreme. And banning violence in video games is just a way for.. Wait, no political stuff, nevermind. But damnit, they need to deal with the matters at hand!


There is no way, that I can not get into politics, unless I end the post now. So, cutting it short.

-db

GameDeveloper, make your own games with a drag-and-drop interface. Basically t3dgm+fpsc editor combined.
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=86045&b=8&p=2
Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 14:32
DB User. point 1 is somewhat true, there are measures on the floor to punish PARENTS for letting a minor play a M rated game, they are attempting to attribute it as being the same as letting the child view pRon.

point 2. Don't be silly, where in the world did you hear that? I have seen no proposed bill anywhere, or even a solid movement that is attempting to ban video games and their creation altogether. If somehow someone evr decided to write such a bill, and somehow got it passed, it would be unconstitutional and shot down right away by the Supreme court. (in the US anyway)

Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 17:35
Quote: "when im angry i play a video game and curse at the monsters while obliterating them to hell!!!"

And that's an acceptable way to vent anger rather than learning to control yourself?

When I play games I play them to develop and hone skills, accuracy and dexterity. I don't play them because I enjoy shooting zombies in the face or hitting other cruise members with spanners just because it says their name in the corner.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 17:40
Quote: "And that's an acceptable way to vent anger rather than learning to control yourself?"

That's a good point.

Quote: "When I play games I play them to develop and hone skills, accuracy and dexterity"

Not for fun then?

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Jess T
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 17:57 Edited at: 14th Jan 2007 17:59
Heh, that's about how I feel, Nick

Benny, Fun comes into it, it's definatly pleasureable to finish something, or complete a goal, but we don't giggle like school girls when we shoot an enemy, or blow up a base...
Different people have different reactions and feelings about different situations

[EDIT]
BatVink,
Those statistics there are pretty well accurate.
They come from a Government website (so they're reliable), target pretty much exactly who video games are targeted at, and show the entire time-line that Video-games have been around for (1972 - the Magnavox Odyssey )
[/EDIT]

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Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 18:17
Quote: "Benny, Fun comes into it, it's definatly pleasureable to finish something, or complete a goal, but we don't giggle like school girls when we shoot an enemy, or blow up a base...
Different people have different reactions and feelings about different situations"

State the obvious.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 18:35
On DBUser's first point

I think they're being silly about computer games, I know what effects it can have and what ages it effects and how a person with moronic parents can be effected and I still think they're being bloody stupid, and once they think they solved the video games problem and their kid kills someone, who are they going to blame next, they already did it with music...

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the_winch
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 18:37 Edited at: 14th Jan 2007 18:42
Quote: "And that's an acceptable way to vent anger rather than learning to control yourself?"


How is containing the anger until it can be released in a way that harms nothing not controlled?

Quote: "BatVink,
Those statistics there are pretty well accurate."


He wasn't disputing the accuracy of the statistics but the conclusion drawn from them. All you can really conclude from the graph is the method used to measure the number of violent crimes shows a decrease in recent years.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
David R
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 19:59 Edited at: 14th Jan 2007 20:00
Quote: "They come from a Government website (so they're reliable), "


Isn't it usually the opposite? Governmental institutes often bend the truth in terms of statistics, to suit their own means

EDIT:
Quote: "State the obvious."


That's pretty much stating the obvious in itself


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Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 20:36
Quote: "That's pretty much stating the obvious in itself"

With a nice pointless statement from you to top it off.

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 21:30
Quote: "With a nice pointless statement from you to top it off."

Why are you being so snappy today?

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Jeku
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 22:29 Edited at: 14th Jan 2007 22:30
Quote: "When I play games I play them to develop and hone skills, accuracy and dexterity."


In my opinion that's a weird reason to play a game-- to develop dexterity. It's probably not the intention of the developer, anyway, as they want you to have a good time.

Quote: "Why are you being so snappy today? "


Ben seems to enjoy popping in threads and making one-lined sarcastic responses. He's trying to fill in the empty void Megaton left behind

Quote: "1. Do you think there should be a law that bans violence in video games?"


Definitely not. Who can define violence? Who has that authority? Remember, PacMan can considered violent.

Quote: "2. Do you think that there should be a law preventing parents from letting their children from playing violent games?"


No, there should be a parental suggestion, just like the film industry has in place.

Quote: "3. Do you think that parents or the government should determine what people under 18 play?"


Parents with their own kids, yes. Government, no, they should suggest, and allow the parent to make the decision. I mean, this is how they do it with all media formats.

Quote: "4. What in your opinion would be a reasonable resolution to this problem? (The dabate that is going on about violent games causing violent behavior.)"


What problem are you referring to?

Quote: "5. Do you think violence in games causes kids to be violent?"


Sure it can. Kids can get rowdy after watching Ninja Turtles or Power Rangers too. There's a reason why many parents won't let their kids watch WWE as they copy what they see. Of course, I believe when they reach an age of around 11 or 12, they have self control and can mostly judge between right and wrong ways to act.

Quote: "6. Why do you think parents use violent video games as a scapegoat for the violent behavior of children instead of blaming themselves for something that has happed at school or they may have done?"


Yes. Parental groups will blame the hot risque entertainment medium of the minute. Video gaming used to be blamed for kids skipping out of school and heading to arcades, instead of parents being strict when the kid skips class.

Quote: "7. Do you think the current ESRB/PEGI system in place works?"


Yes I do. But I don't think the retailers are following the rules very well, and parents are buying games for their kids without looking at the label. But the ratings are there, just like the big 18A symbol is there on a DVD that a parent buys for their children.

Michael S
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 22:35 Edited at: 14th Jan 2007 22:36
Quote: "Ben seems to enjoy popping in threads and making one-lined sarcastic responses. He's trying to fill in the empty void Megaton left behind"

Megaton left ???

Thank you Jeku for answering I really appreciate it.

Also I think I may have worded number 4 wrong

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French gui
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 22:37
Quote: "Ben seems to enjoy popping in threads and making one-lined sarcastic responses. He's trying to fill in the empty void Megaton left behind "


I'm on Ben's side, if there's a war...
Matt Rock
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 22:45 Edited at: 14th Jan 2007 22:46
I almost feel like I have to answer this, even though I'm not a mainstream industry professional. Like many others I feel strongly about this topic.

1. Do you think there should be a law that bans violence in video games?
Absolutely not. As game developers, we have just as much a right to make violent video games as movie directors have a right to make violent movies or rappers have a right to rap about killing people. Freedom of Speech entitles us to create anything we want and say anything we want, and it's a right we should all fight for every single day.

2. Do you think that there should be a law preventing parents from letting their children from playing violent games?
Unfortunately, you can't outlaw a lack of common sense. Parents make dumb mistakes. I don't care who you are, who your parents are, or how well they raised you, somewhere along the line your parent has made a mistake here or there, and they learn from those mistakes as often as we learn from them. Some parents make far more mistakes than others, but no one is perfect. But rather than passing legislation against games, we should work toward teaching parents about the ratings systems that are in place and try to inform them of the content of certain games before they run off and buy them for their kids.

3. Do you think that parents or the government should determine what people under 18 play?
The government should never pass any law that defines the behavior of a human's nature. Parents should know their children well enough to understand what might inspire or influence them, and if they don't know that about their kids, then they're terrible parents, and I doubt anyone would argue that. When I was about twelve or thirteen years old, the game Doom was released. I was allowed to play that game because my parents knew me well enough to understand that I wouldn't run around killing people because I played it, and they bought it for me on the SNES. But if that game started altering my behavior, they would have taken it away. Another kid I grew up with, Jeremy, was easily influenced by things of that nature and his parents refused to allow him to play it, and when he tried to play it at my house, my mom told his mom and Jeremy ended up getting grounded for a week. These are examples of parents knowing their children and caring about their kids enough to protect them from themselves if they honestly feel there's a risk involved.

4. What in your opinion would be a reasonable resolution to this problem? (The dabate that is going on about violent games causing violent behavior.)
While I doubt this debate will end within the next twenty years, and I also doubt that if it does end, it would end with a resolution where everyone wins, I think the only way to resolve this issue would be to campaign toward educating parents about the content of games and making them understand the ratings system for games in their countries. In that instance, everyone would win, and the only person anyone could blame if a kid shoots up his or her school would be the parents... as it should be.

5. Do you think violence in games causes kids to be violent?
I think it depends on the child. Some children are easily influenced by the media (games, movies, etc.). Some aren't. It's literally impossible to say there's anything that could effect every single individual in any given demographic... every human being is different in a number of ways. And for every child who might be influenced by the media, I guarantee you there's at least one adult whose influenced in the same way, but there's at least ten children and adults who aren't influenced whatsoever by the same exact content.

6. Why do you think parents use violent video games as a scapegoat for the violent behavior of children instead of blaming themselves for something that has happed at school or they may have done?
Individualism. No one wants to take the blame for anything... that's just human nature. If a kid shoots up his or her school, then parents always say it's the media's fault for influencing their kid to do the crime. It's the school's fault for not having proper security measures in place. It's the faculty's fault for not acting with vigilance. But never, EVER do these parents blame themselves for keeping a gun in the house. Never do these parents want to take responsibility for their own behavior which might have lead to these acts long before the media played its role. In part, they don't want to take responsibility. In another part, they don't want to believe that their own actions could have supplemented, or even inspired, these actions to occur.

7. Do you think the current ESRB/PEGI system in place works?
No. But they very easily could work if we spent as much time educating parents as we did blaming games for the actions of minors.

Edit:
Quote: "He's trying to fill in the empty void Megaton left behind"

Whatever happened to Megs anyway? I noticed a while back that he wasn't around anymore.


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Michael S
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 23:07
Thank you Matt I totally agree with you

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 23:13
Always glad to offer my opinion


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Michael S
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 23:18 Edited at: 15th Jan 2007 07:26
I am glad you did I appreciate it

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Jess T
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 04:13
winch,
Quote: "He wasn't disputing the accuracy of the statistics but the conclusion drawn from them. All you can really conclude from the graph is the method used to measure the number of violent crimes shows a decrease in recent years."


That's what I meant, the method used to compile those statistics is pretty much exactly what is needed for the target we're talking about, isn't it? 12+, violent crimes, ranges from the beginning of Video Games to present, etc.

Matt,
I agree with your post... Mostly.

You keep coming back to the points about parents should be to blame for not knowing their kids well enough to stop them from being influenced by games and media, etc.
The problem in that is Parents aren't the only (physical) influence in a young developing childs life. There's a number of different sources such as Teachers in school, school friends, sports friends, weekend friends (possibly the same friend 3 times over ) as well as bully's in the school.
While, yes, parents should know their kids, who they hang out with and be their 'tutor' to show them how life should work, they can't control what the child thinks, nor who could influence them enough to give them unique thoughts, or a mixture (maybe messed up, maybe quite well-aligned).

I take myself as an example.
When I was young (5 - 14ish), I had a major problem with anger. All my life (as far as I could remember), I had thought like it, and had been that kind of person. Then, when I hit 14, I found different friends at school (one of my old friends left). Pretty quickly, I underwent a noticable change. My new friends were not the adrenaline pumping, fist throwing friends of my youth, but were more placid and into just talking, etc (the geek crowd ), so I started to be influenced by how they thought, what they did. Eventually, this lead to my anger subsiding, and me becomming a much more controlled person all-round. But until that point, I was very impressionable toward violence (addmitedly, I never played video games that much, and even if I did, I'm more than intelligent enough to know not to murder someone!)

Meanwhile, my mum is back home. She knows (sortof) the kids I hang around with at school, but since they were my 'school mates' (where I incidentally spent 35hrs a week) she had no idea what I was privvy to, or what my outside influences are/were. Outside of school, she did everything (mostly) just right - watched what I did, where I went, showed concern, encouraged me to do this and that, etc, but how could she know that I was doing at school, how I was thinking, and what opinions I was forming, or actions I was a part in?

Having said that, if my mother wasn't quite the person she is, if she was violent, or angry, etc, then I can see how I may have never made the transition from angry to placcid with a new group of friends.
But then, that comes back to their personal lives, and how they were brought up - It's a vicious cycle that includes not one, but multitudes of outside influences to take into account when thinking about what may or may not effect the way a child perceives what is right and what is wrong.

... Just some food for thought

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Raven
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 06:47
Q. Do you think there should be a law that bans violence in video games?

A. No, as "video games" are a form of entertainment media just like Music and Film.

Q. Do you think that there should be a law preventing parents from letting their children from playing violent games?

A. It's up to the parents what they let their children purchase, and play. Microsoft in recent years have been enhancing this with their Xbox 360 and Windows Vista platforms that provide parents will the ability to disable any games that are under their childrens age group.

I doubt it is used much, but the system is there to prevent underage gaming, film watching or music playing. It's now up to the parents to enforce this as they see fit.

Q. Do you think that parents or the government should determine what people under 18 play?

A. I believe it's a combination of both. While I firmly believe in having parents have the final say of what they deem to be alright for their own child, it is up to the government or some sort of governing board to provide parents with guidelines and help on determining this.

Q. What in your opinion would be a reasonable resolution to this problem? (The dabate that is going on about violent games causing violent behavior.)

A. Not my place to solve this problem, it's up to those who control what children are exposed to. I simply work on entertainment.
All developers can do is aim a game at their particular key market, why should we put in an option to take out blood or remove all violent/sexual/illict substance/etc. references simply because there is a chance some 10yo's parents feel it's a good idea to expose them to it. If we make a game aimed at adults, we expect that is who will be playing it.

Q. Do you think violence in games causes kids to be violent?
A. Anything can cause the right person to become violent. If someone doesn't have the right mental state to handle what they are being exposed to no matter if it is a child or an adult they will snap. This is a mental issue within the said individual.
I do believe children will immitate anything they admire, aspire or believe to be "cool", but this is part of growing up. Children are very influencial because they are still learning.
Parent should know this and protect them accordingly.

Q. Why do you think parents use violent video games as a scapegoat for the violent behavior of children instead of blaming themselves for something that has happed at school or they may have done?

A. This is all down to the key question "Are these parents willing to take responsibility?". In some cases it might be true that a game, film or music triggers something in a child that cause a serious problem/incident; however in these cases it should be seen that the person was instable due to something else, the entertainment media was simply the trigger. They could've honestly been triggered by anything.

Q. Do you think the current ESRB/PEGI system in place works?

A. ESRB/PEGI are voluntry boards, so that you can have your games rated. There is currently no laws preventing games from being shipped without rating. It is more than likely rating are put on many games to cover the publisher/developer in case they are blamed for violent crimes; however the realism is that the boards themselves are there to make sure content unsuitable is marked as such.

Retailers then enforce these, as they must by law. Although ratings themselves are voluntary, enforcing those which have them isn't. Any retailer found to be selling rated titles to underaged people are given a $50,000 fine; plus the actual clerk who sold it is also fined a nominal fee. For those doing these jobs, trust me the pay isn't high enough to risk it; so they don't!

The real issue here is parents are purchasing these for their children without bothering to get involved in what their kids are doing. Retailers (particularly GAME [UK]) can refuse to sell games to any adult they know are purchasing for a minor, and often they will. If a parent is purchasing for their child, and it is obvious the title isn't for them.. again it is a common practise that the parents are told about unsuitable content (given most clerks, are avid gamers themselves and often own or have played on the title being sold).

At the end of the day, this all comes back to the parents. Games have probably one of the most strict retail policies, and best upheld of any entertainment media. So the only real people who have a final say are the parents.

This all said, it depends on if you believe there is an actual link between violent titles and adolescent violence.
I personally feel that right now, it's just something else to blame given it's popularity. This will no doubt change to something else in the years to come... like I dunno, home-bungie-jump kits.

Benjamin
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 07:32
Quote: "Why are you being so snappy today?"

Life.

Quote: "Ben seems to enjoy popping in threads and making one-lined sarcastic responses."

If people say utterly stupid things I will respond with something equally stupid. However, I will make an exception this time.

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BatVink
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 10:27
A quick search on Google shows a plethora of surveys and statistics, and the majority lean towards games increasing violent behaviour. Many of these are commissioned by "unbiased" organisations, including governments.

I'm not saying they are right. What I'm saying is that it's a natural human reaction to find the statistics that suit your cause. Most of the time, it's a sub-conscious thing (and there's research to prove that too!).

So between biased research, unaccountable factors and a fast-changing world, I don't think you can rely on any one report to be a true picture of whether or not a problem exists.

Again, there are specific cases of video-related violence and actions. But it's impossible to provide stats on lunatics that played The Sims and decided against the culling of their own family. So it's an unquantifiable phenomenon.



Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 10:44
Quote: "Thank you Matt I totally agree with you"


stop the presses!!!!

Jeff Miller
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 14:52
Have any of you raised children through the "violent" video game playing years then well into adulthood? I have. My three children played Castle Wolfenstein for inumerable hours when it first came out (then Doom), and shot Nazi's left and right. A whole night would be spent shooting, shooting, shooting. They are now ages 24 through 30, and to this day not one of them has harmed a fly. If anything, they are somewhat pacifist. I don't accept a generalization linking the playing of violent video games to behavior in the real world. My experience has been to the contrary. I suspect that such generalizations are suppositions by people who do not have the actual experience to back it up.
BatVink
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 15:28
Quote: "I don't accept a generalization linking the playing of violent video games to behavior in the real world."


Neither do I. But I do accept that if a number of 13 year-old children who fit the title of "suggestible" are allowed to play 18 rated games and watch 18 rated films, there will be a consequence. How great or measurable that outcome is, I don't think anyone can predict. But I go back to my old stance that if you desensitize a generation of children to war,violence and death, then there will be a consequential shift in what is considered right and wrong.

To support that fact, we have raging debates about Euthanasia. So as a parent of the next generation of politicians, you have a vested interest in making sure death doesn't become trivialised.



Jeff Miller
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 15:43
Experience guides me again. I had the uncomfortable responsibility of instructing the hospital to "euthanize" my own mother at age 84, in accordance with her written wishes. Death is going to happen, and accelerating it does not necessarily trivialize it. It depends on the circumstances. I have no vested interest in keeping present day politicians from loosening up the guidelines a little, no vested interest in being a burden to my family, and no vested interest in living a single day beyond the day I stop enjoying life.

There are certainly some video games which trivialize death, but not all violent games do. Death isn't necessarily trivialized in a combat game as such. There is a purpose to it.
BatVink
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 16:29 Edited at: 15th Jan 2007 16:30
I appreciate I can't comment on your circumstances, and I'm quite thankful that I can't. I wouldn't wish those circumstances on anyone. But maybe I should clarify my meaning - I'm talking about nonvoluntary and involuntary euthanasia, hence my comment about politicians deciding whether you live or die, not whether you can decide that action.



Jeff Miller
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 18:04
Well, in that case I've observed no heated debate going on in the US on THAT type of euthanasia. The exposure to violence issue has been around in the US much longer than video games have. In the 50's when I was a boy shooting people was part and parcel of tons of early evening television shows, and many Saturday morning reruns, simply because so many shows were "westerns". The movies were no different. Although the era churned out tons of kids ("baby boomers") I recall no assertion that they had been insensitized to violence by virtue of this exposure, or that they were more prone to it. Many, in fact, grew into what was known as the "hippies", most of whom were emphatically demonstrating against the war in Vietnam. I just don't perceive where this more recent attribution of personal violence to video game or tv exposure is coming from. I get suspicious, for example, of exactly when someone becomes diagnosed as "suggestible". If it is after they have exhibited violence, then it might be an attempt to rationalize the behavior but by no means a scientific cause and effect analysis. For one thing, I don't see how younger people could be exclusively exposed to violence through a video game and at the same time isolated from exposure to violence in every other media, let alone conversation, including even the news. I'm just not sold on it.
David R
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 18:16 Edited at: 15th Jan 2007 18:17
Quote: "If people say utterly stupid things I will respond with something equally stupid. However, I will make an exception this time."


Nah, originally it was funny but without something to 'ping' off of, Benjamin's once satirical posts have just turned to mindless troll-esque sludge. You've lost your logical amusing responses Benjamin, I'm disappointed

EDIT: Semi-irrelevant, but I just found a very good saying:
Quote: ""Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own""



"History shall be kind to me, for I intend to write it" - Winston Churchill
Benjamin
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 18:41
Quote: "Benjamin's once satirical posts have just turned to mindless troll-esque sludge"

Maybe I've lost my mind.

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 19:05 Edited at: 15th Jan 2007 19:08
Quote: "BatVink,
Those statistics there are pretty well accurate."


Statistics are useless! 87% of the population know that!

BatVink
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 19:39
I've even lost my own way this, my original point was that one set of statistics don't prove a point.

But one thing is quite clear from facts...desensitising is a reality. Take a look at these two songs...

This one was banned in 1987.

This one is in the charts right now, just 20 years later.



Code Dragon
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 21:01 Edited at: 15th Jan 2007 21:04
Quote: "1. Do you think there should be a law that bans violence in video games?"


It depends on the kind of violence. Is it a game like GTA where you can walk up to innocent people and murder them? Or is it a game like Mario where you blow up bowser? Murder games should be banned, I know lots of people are going to dissagree but I'd be happy to see FPS's banned. However, games where you kill evil monsters are fine, they subconsiously teach people to destroy evil.

Quote: "2. Do you think that there should be a law preventing parents from letting their children from playing violent games?"


If the parents know that their children are good people and will never become violent, there's no worry. I believe it's up to the parents to choose what games their children play, not the law.

Quote: "3. Do you think that parents or the government should determine what people under 18 play?"


Ok, now I'm confused. This is a democracy, the parents are part of the government.

Quote: "4. What in your opinion would be a reasonable resolution to this problem? (The dabate that is going on about violent games causing violent behavior.)"


Ban the murder games. Non-violent people will get no fun out of them, who gets joy out of seeing people - even virtual people - die? If I remember correctly the definition of evil is gettting joy from other people's sufffering.

Quote: "5. Do you think violence in games causes kids to be violent?"


Only kids who are emotionaly unstable. But if kids know that violence is wrong, it won't influence them.

Quote: "6. Why do you think parents use violent video games as a scapegoat for the violent behavior of children instead of blaming themselves for something that has happed at school or they may have done?"


I'm not a theripest either, but I know some stuff about physcology. (Excuse my bad spelling, I'm very bad at spelling)

A lot of people these days don't face their problems. It's tragic, and spreading like a diease. Blaming violent video games is one of them. These people try to slant their personalities in ways that are socialy desierable. This includes lying to themselves that they are responsible for their kids being violent. They blame the video games, but unconsiously keep letting their kids play them so they can maintain this lie. Otherwise, the violent video games would be gone and the kids would still be violent, revealing the truth to the parent's consiousness that they are the cause of the children's violence.

This is just my theory, I don't have an statistics to support it just so you know.

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Thank you for not flooding the forums with posts like this.
Matt Rock
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 21:45
Quote: "stop the presses!!!!"

Its been known to happen... now and again

@ Jess: I never really looked at it that way, and it's a great point. But while there's definitely a global responsibility in the development of a person's influences and psychological profile, it's almost impossible to expect all of those individuals to assume responsibility if someone goes off the wall, and that's why I pit most of the blame on parents... but it's definitely a valid point regardless, parents aren't the only ones responsible for making a kid go nuts.

Quote: "It depends on the kind of violence. Is it a game like GTA where you can walk up to innocent people and murder them? Or is it a game like Mario where you blow up bowser? Murder games should be banned, I know lots of people are going to dissagree but I'd be happy to see FPS's banned. However, games where you kill evil monsters are fine, they subconsiously teach people to destroy evil.
"

I have to disagree wholeheartedly with that. Games like Grand Theft Auto are not targeted toward children whatsoever. There's an enormous market of gamers in the 18 to 30 bracket, and games like GTA are marketed directly at those people. It's not like Dan and Sam Houser were sitting around one day saying "hey, let's make a game where you steal cars and kill people, and you'll get points for that, and that game would be HUGE amongst the 7 to 13 crowd." Most game developers make games that they themselves would enjoy playing, and more than likely assume people their own age are playing those games. I would have a very hard time believing that people like the Housers design games like GTA hoping to bank on the younger crowd, especially with such a massive adult market in this industry. The quarter-poppers of yesteryear are all grown up now, myself included, and we create a widespread demand for more mature titles. And to ban violent games outright would deny adults the right to enjoy these games, which would be incredibly unfair. Why ban games like Grand Theft Auto, but allow movies like Crank and Hostel to be released? They're both adult-oriented forms of entertainment and it would be wrong to take either away from the public who enjoys them.


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Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 00:35
Quote: "Grog I agree wholeheartedly that games do not make people more violent, but neither do I think they make youth less violent. There are alot of reasons for the drop in youth violence, one of which is their ass is glued to the couch playing games now. That data is quite accurate but I think stating it Proves anything other then that violence has decreased is premature."


True there can be many factors that aren't taken into account. Just because crime goes down doesn't mean it's because we're playing violent video games. But it does prove as a whole that today violent crimes are at it's lowest... so violent video games cannot be a cause of violence.

Also games like GTA show you what happens when you murder innocent people... the cops go after you and don't stop till your either captured or dead. Kids see the direct results of their actions in the game so they know if they do it in real life they'll get the same results. GTA teaches them to obey real life laws by mimicking them.

What I think is the real cause of less violence is a lower level of testosterone in boys today... that's why there are so many Emos today. They have very low testosterone so they are less prone to violence. It really doesn't matter how violent the games are... the kids just don't have it in them to be violent (to others at least). I couldn't find the specific article I saw that talked about Emos and low testosterone but here's one on depression:

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/81/96972.htm
Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 01:14
Quote: "I have to disagree wholeheartedly with that. Games like Grand Theft Auto are not targeted toward children whatsoever. "


You are being naive with that one, cigarettes are not targeted at kids either right Remember the south park movie, it was for adults, but they made sure kids wanted to see it.

Michael S
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 02:42 Edited at: 16th Jan 2007 02:45
Quote: "but I'd be happy to see FPS's banned."

So I take it you are not too involved on the FPSC board then

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Steve J
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 07:09
@Eureka: After seeing the FPSC forum, that made me want to ban fps's

Michael S
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I don't blame you

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 20:19
I dunno, I doubt they made that game targeted at kids. You and I are making a Saddam Hussein hangman game (selfish upcoming game plug there!), and it's definitely not a game for kids, but I'm sure some kids will play it, that can't be helped. But we're not making it with the intention of targeting kids. I'd rather prefer that kids didn't download it, even though it's cartoony and silly, it's still improper material for minors I think. We're making it because it'll be a funny game and it should prove challenging for the players... a game we'd enjoy playing. I think most others in the industry are like that as well. Cigarettes, that's a whole other story hehe. But that's how their industry is... they'd target pets if they had opposable thumbs that could work lighters


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