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Geek Culture / 3D Live Chat in DBpro based on the Forum (has anyone tried)?

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zenassem
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 02:55
Just wondering if anyone has attempted this in DBpro. Considering the ammount of people that are into MMORPG's and Also like the forum, would it be possible to take on a less ambitious project like a live 3d Chat.

It could be set in A futuristic complex, with different areas devoted to the different boards we have on the forum. General talk for instance, could be like a BIOsphere garden. Users will have a 3d avatar with their names above them. Picture seeing Rob K (Barney) hanging out at the information center talking to IanM (Fred).

Picture slamming a door on someones face, when your discussion gets a little heated. Man I would have liked to do that a few times.

We could add interesting elements like guest speakers, where at desiganted times a person could be at the podium giving a lecture or on a specific topic like say Shaders.

Mods could have taser guns, in case anyone gets out of line. Or put a temp ban on someone alsa BeetleJuice Zipper to the Mouth.

Well, I'm not at all familiar with Multiplayer in DBpro. But I think that an idea like this has potential. It would be fun to even try if it's possible. I know someone working on server .dll, so I'm gathering that's how it might have to be programmed rather than peer-to-peer.

If it gets off the ground, You could even add some game elements, emotions, gestures, collision; would be cool to see the place turn into a Super Mario Allstars Melee.

"And cattlerustler puts a horn into Zenassem's Arse. Zen counters with his infamous long winded post. Hzence leeps in with a Monkey Bite..."

Well you get the Idea.

~zenassem


I have seen this type of community a while back, and it looked fairly promising. I haven't been involved in a forum like that in quite some time.


Mnemonix
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 03:36
There is a possibility that i could adapt my java server framework to handle the protocol, but the server and bandwidth cost $$$.

Visit the Db chat room, ask me for details!.
HZence
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 04:20
I've thought about something like that, but didn't really develop the idea. I also never considered it a possible project.

This would be a cool thing to do though. Imagine, if you will, having everyone contribute "themselves" - i.e. a model. For example, I'd contribute a 3D model of Diddy Kong.

I'd like to see this project taken up.


Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
Mnemonix
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 04:25
Im willing to take it up, but i would need a team, and i would only do it if there were people who were willing to contribute to the monthly cost of a server, since i cant afford it myself. I dont even know how much it would cost anyway, because i dont know how much bandwidth it would use.

Visit the Db chat room, ask me for details!.
HZence
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 04:28
I'm sure Jimmy could offer us the bandwidth/space.


Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
zenassem
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 05:01 Edited at: 19th Jul 2004 05:11
I would like to see this become a reality, though I don't have a goood grasp of the Net commands, and I'm pretty new to 3d. But I'm sure I could work on mideling the Futuristic Station (I'm thinking like the mall in "Minority report", with a Biosphere etc... We would really need a project manager who can hold everything together and keep people on line. If this has any chance of success we would need to truly get a stronge design document, as well as nail down the features from the beginning and stick with it until completion.

The most that I've done with the net commands Is the chat program example in the Beginners Book. Peer-to-peer not Client Sever based. I'm sure that there is enough knowledge between all the people here to get this off the ground, even if we use cubes and cylinders and spheres for avatars to mock up a demo. I think that if we can get that accomplished people will start to contibute, models, textures etc...


Just picture Las 6 contributing some textures.

I am in no way qualified to lead a project like this, but i would think that the main goals/hurdles will be:

-Get a good Client Server communication Model down
-Have a simple 3d space/rooms to walk around in
-Use stand in basic 3d geometries for avatars
-Build a Text- based Chat model: including (whisper, shout, private conversation, All in room etc, ignore user, away...)


after/if that can be done then it can be improved with lighting, textures, models, sound, emotions, object interaction.

Picture walking into the works in progress (a media viewing room, think display panels like in "Minority Report" and being able to watch demos of people games, or at least in the begining watch screenshots of peoples work


Doesn't seem all that difficult except for the "GOOD Client Server" Model.

~zen


zircher
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 05:05
Go and check out some of the existing 3D communities and save yourself the hassle. I used to be a world builder and guild member over at Colony City/Cyber Town. VRML modelling is fairly easy stuff. I used to build my own animated avatars all the time. In fact, the first incarnation of my powered armor avatar was created in VRML.
--
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 05:12
This sounds interesting. I think the client/server portion needs to be written in something other than DBP, then have the dbp exe interacting with the c/s as a TPC. The possibilities are endless. I would be interested in getting involved in the "back-end" coding portion (client server)...


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 05:13
I nominate Zen for project leader
(sorry about the horn in your arse )


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HZence
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 05:14
The question is, who in the community has a good understanding of network programming and could generate a useful DLL for us?


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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 05:16 Edited at: 19th Jul 2004 05:18
well I have already written a TCP/IP client/server app in vb.net. I could port it over to a dll setup, but we'd need my buddy Exeat to wrap her up. I don't know if he is interested...

EDIT: This might be a good time to whip out MSMQ me thinks. 2000/XP have MSMQ loaded by default. MSMQ is so much more fun than tcp/ip classes, but thats just mho


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zenassem
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 05:22 Edited at: 19th Jul 2004 05:25
Thanks zircher,

I know that they already exist, like I said I was involved in a community about three years ago. I would like to see one built in DBpro (at least the 3D Graphical part, as i believe Cattlerustler is correct in developing the net components outside of DB and providing an interface) to showcase the features it has. And if we could pull it off, it would be a great accomplishment, that the enitre community here could have fun with.

For me it's kind of like, yeah if I want a good quality First Person Shooter, my best bet would be to go to the store and purchase one and save myself the hassle, but I find it more enjoyable to make something myself; even if it's light-years inferior to what is out there. It's the enjoyment of coding and the intellectual pursuit, as well as the reward of creating something tangable from an idea. Those are the reasons I would buy a product like FPS creator, or DBC/DBpro. Not because I think that I can write a better game than Half-life or Halo, GTA VC etc...

In fact I enjoy trying to understand games more so than actually playing them. I can't tell you the last game that I played all the way through to the end. In fact I'm quite horrible at playing m,ost of todays popular games. So in a way I might be the opposite of many people. I like to write code more than I enjoy playing the result. I tenf to play puzzle games or not so complicated fun games. I had a blast playing "MR. Kitty Fantastico" last night. I probably put more hours into playing that than I have in the last 6-months playing any professional game.

Coding and being on the Forums, as well as a job working with computers is already pushing the limits of how many hours per day I can look at the screen. Hence, I don't invest much time in playing games anymore.

~zen


CattleRustler
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 06:12
Zen, same here. I do have a few games I enjoy playing but I am more about the coding and over-analyzing everything I see LOL


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 06:16
meh, it's been done... No one remembers 'The 3D Bar', might've changed it's name to Barfight; cause they added the ability to beat ppl with pool cues lol

CattleRustler
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 06:19
LOL


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HZence
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 06:35
We know it's been done, but there hasn't been one made for the DarkBASIC community.


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zenassem
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 06:38
@Raven,

Is it still maintained and dowloadable. I would like to have a look.

~zen

Beyond that, It's ok If it's been done on some level before. I kind of assumed at least an attempt had been made in the posts topic. I don't understand the "Meh, It's been done comment". If everyone had that take than we really wouldn't have to many games coming ouit at all. Not even your Acorn Basic!


CattleRustler
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 06:45 Edited at: 19th Jul 2004 06:46
yeah!




edit: Zen I shot ya a couple emails


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Mnemonix
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 06:58
I will lead the project, if anybody is willing to help me then post on here, it will give me good practice for my morpg i am planning. I reckon i can do the protocol stuff and have a good understanding of the requirementsof both the server and client, but that doesnt mean i wont need help. Something like this needs careful planning and im not even going to start if i havent got a dedicated team to help me. Im pretty sure TheDarthster would help, me and him have been planning to do a project for a while, it never got quite off the ground. So if you want to help then post here, or come in the irc.

Visit the Db chat room, ask me for details!.
CattleRustler
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 07:11
I thought this was Zen's project?


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Mnemonix
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 07:20
I thought Zen didnt want to do it. Im not trying to steal his project. If you look at like the 4th post in this topic you may know.
If no1 wants to give it a go then i will go back to my MUD.

Visit the Db chat room, ask me for details!.
zenassem
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 07:23
No CR, I reallyu don't have enough 3D programming and net programming experience behind me to lead the team, But I will definately be doing a lot of work to help contribute what I can.

Probably wearing a couple different hats

Messaging system
2D interface
Some 3d Models
Development Documentation
Testing
Research
Environment design
A Point of contact
And motivator

Selling the idea to others, and get some of our talen here invloved, even if it's a single texture, a single model, whatever.

I'll also be delving into the 3d programming, to get a feel for it in DBpro. My code might just be for testing the Room design. I like the look that "Room Wars" had.

~zen

I'll check your e-mails in a moment


CattleRustler
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 07:23
no, I was just asking because he seemed/seems into it but then you posted saying you'll be the project leader - just confused is all


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Mnemonix
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 07:26
Fair do`s moo moo.

Zen & CR. Could you give me live contact details or come into the IRC so we can discuss this further. If other people are willing to put in the effort then i am too. I can probably d a good deal of the backend, and the clients message processing, what i lack is the ability to do the graphics and things like that.

Visit the Db chat room, ask me for details!.
zenassem
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 07:32 Edited at: 19th Jul 2004 07:32
Mnemonix will be the overall project lead.


Cattlerustler I'm not sure what constraints you have right now, but it would be great if you and Exeat could lead the network programming interface. If you can, I guess that would make you lead network programmer. If you have the time and want it of course.

But I'll defer any more appointments to Mnemonix and let him run the show. So Mnemonix, since you were working on a MUD you would have a pretty good idea on what is needed. I'll let yuou decide how we should proceed.

I can get to work on drawing up some concept art of the environment, and GUI interface, or Design Doc. Possibly I could research some of the other 3D chat's that are around to get an idea of what's the status Quo is these days, so we have an idea of what we are aiming for. I'll let you make the call.

~zen


zenassem
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 07:36
going to IRC now. Is it still on foreverchat or was the switch made yet. I couldn't find it on the new server the last time I checked. If I don't have luck connecting just post the new server and Channel here. trying now!


Mnemonix
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 07:36
Excellent zenassem, i think we have already all the network requirements we need. If somebody can make a reliable sockets wrapper for dbp, that would be great. I only require 1 tcp/ip socket for the client, and it has to connect to a remote ip. I will write up a document on how would be a good idea to go about this.

Visit the Db chat room, ask me for details!.
Final Epsilon
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 07:39
wow. This seems rather intersting. I'd be willing to lend a hand with maybe modeling and textures.
nuclear glory
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 07:40 Edited at: 19th Jul 2004 07:52
Way ahead of ya mates. Already designed a full client server system with wrapper designed for DBP. Server software is completed, user authorization is in place, and anti-abuse systems are armed and ready. Additionally, the bandwidth breakdowns are completed and all of the net commands work (ability to create server net games, etc...) and the functionality is all handled through NG servers.

Check the WIP thread. It's going to go public very soon (with the NGC v3.00 release).

If you all want to make a chat avatar system, I'd be glad to show you the ropes of the wrapper. All that really needs to happen is for me to finish up the documentation and add some things to the website so the general population can understand how to use it.

(Also, the system is tied into a subscription/payment style system automatically for you to have players sign up for your game and NG will handle charging them monthly. We also offer a bandwidth service for a low monthly cost and let you do what you want with the bandwidth. There's a free service that allows each developer to test their platform with up to one other developer, and so on and so forth. Now you see why this thing needs careful docs.)

If you want to put together an avatar thing I can let you in on my admin account to create a demo or something (allowing more than 2 people to connect to the chat with no cost to you). This would be a nice way to get our technology off the ground into the public and to prove that it works (rather than letting you all fend for yourselves, lol).

EDIT:
Also, a set of "packing" commands were created to turn numbers into 2 and 4 byte strings (aiding with bandwidth) and the client DLL allows you to get statistics on how much bandwidth you're allowed to send per second, how much you can send immediately, as well as control the "send queue" (which stores messages for sending when you try to send messages that are exceeding the bandwidth limit).

--- Conclusion ---
I can have the thing done, ready, and in the program announcement boards by tomorrow.

Lead Programmer/Director
Powerful Collision DLL for DBPro and DBC: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Lightwave Scene Exporter to .X also at: http://www.nuclearglory.com
Mnemonix
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 07:49
Im not sure that would be appropriate for what we are planning. Although it does seem a good idea what you have done, we dont plan on having all the work done for us and plan to make use of a full dedicated machine and server program.

Visit the Db chat room, ask me for details!.
CattleRustler
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 07:52 Edited at: 19th Jul 2004 07:53
Well then there is no reason for me to re-invent anything, NG's got the back-end covered Good luck on the project. If you need anything from me just give a shout.

EDIT: Just read what mnemonix said... ?


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Mnemonix
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 07:54
How is the backend covered. The protocol doesnt yet exist... that is what must be programmed on to a remote application which runs on a remote machine.

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nuclear glory
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 07:54
As does ours.

Dedicated options are available as well as custom network programming (for those of you who'd like to coordinate a mmorpg). There's a mmorpg discussion going on over in the 3D chat that we're involved in atm.

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 07:57
yes, but would i get access to a dedicated machine, running linux that can sustain a java application?

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nuclear glory
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 07:58
Quote: "The protocol doesnt yet exist... that is what must be programmed on to a remote application which runs on a remote machine."


Yep, it does exist. And it's programmed on a remote application running on a remote machine (as we speak even). It acts as an intermediary script with the client, allowing you to relay messages to others connected to the session you're in, etc...

For a mmorpg, a custom script would have to be developed to integrate directly with the game logic (for bandwidth reasons). But for less demanding projects (multiplayer 8 person FPS or a chat room with anti-flood programming in your app), the current technology will work beautifully.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 08:00



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nuclear glory
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 08:02 Edited at: 19th Jul 2004 08:03
Quote: "running linux that can sustain a java application?"


No need with the intermediary script. Unless of course you plan on designing your own backend protocol and client app. In which case you don't need us anyhow

--- edit ---

What's wrong CR? You shouldn't be bleeding like that, lol.

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 08:02
How can the chat protocol exist, i dont mean the transmission protocol, i mean the service protocol, which doesnt exist otherwise the server would exist.

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 08:05
Yea, thats what we are planning. The entire backend protocol is being designed atm, with respect, your service sounds great, im just not sure its right for this project, but i may very well use it in the future. I used NGlory .

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nuclear glory
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 08:09
Quote: "i mean the service protocol, which doesnt exist otherwise the server would exist."


The server does exist. It's actively awaiting incoming connections atm. I'm just a little foggy on what you're asking about specifically.

1) There's a server awaiting connections
2) The programmed DBP apps (using the connection library) connect to that server.
3) The apps send data to the connection library, the connection library sends it over TCP/IP to the server, the server relays it to the other connected people (per the instructions), the other connected people receive the packet(s) (via their own copy of the connection library), and the chat is in action.

So... technically all that needs to be done is programming of the chat/avatar system in DBP.

Did that answer it?

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 08:09
Cr, can you join me and Zen on the IRC. We can discuss this further

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nuclear glory
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 08:11
lol, cool. The thread is moving faster than I'm actively replying to. I think we're sorted

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 08:13
Yea that answers it perfectly, But thats a different method to the task we are doing. Basically each client will ask our server questions and the server will respond with the answers, minimizing bandwidth. It also makes us not send all of the data from one client to every other client, which isnt required.

Visit the Db chat room, ask me for details!.
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 08:16 Edited at: 19th Jul 2004 08:16
Quote: "The server does exist. It's actively awaiting incoming connections atm. I'm just a little foggy on what you're asking about specifically.

1) There's a server awaiting connections
2) The programmed DBP apps (using the connection library) connect to that server.
3) The apps send data to the connection library, the connection library sends it over TCP/IP to the server, the server relays it to the other connected people (per the instructions), the other connected people receive the packet(s) (via their own copy of the connection library), and the chat is in action."


Thats what I meant when I said "NG's got the back-end covered"


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nuclear glory
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 08:18 Edited at: 19th Jul 2004 08:19
@Mnemonix
Indeed. That is definitely the optimal way of handling it. Unfortunately, it doesn't work real well for a public service (hence the reason we did it this way). A note though, there are private messaging commands so the data can be sent directly to other people specifically.

What you're doing is essentially what we would have to do to properly power a mmorpg. Design the server software to properly interact with that client app specifically.

All the power to ya

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 08:19
Mnem, Zen what server are you on?


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Mnemonix
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Thanks for the vote of confidence Ng, i hope your new service turns out well and helps out a lot of people. I may use it one day myself

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 09:02
Hey if you guys get this of the ground, I could make us some cool lightmapped hangouts to chill in.

Mnemonix
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 09:15
Sounds good to me. Me zen and CR are discussing it right now.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 11:44
Development has begun (Yay!)
More info when we have something off the ground (hopefully by tomorrow)




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