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Geek Culture / Sony--- just shameless

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Jeku
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 02:28
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Quote: "No, I don't have a problem with companies who make too much profit"


I know, I just like irritating you

Quote: "if Microsoft did this (and I'm sure they have) I'm wondering if a thread would be made about that."


Dude, I would make that thread myself. It's not a us vs. Sony forum. But it's more like a Sony-vs.-their-customers company. They are literally crapping on their customers.

720p @ 30fps != 1080p @ 60fps

Quote: "Yeah, and I'm sure Sony exces were twisting their mustaches saying "Ooooo... I wonder how many people will be impressed before everyone figures out this is a lie and more people begin hating us.""


They should have thought about that before announcing at CES during their keynote address that MotorStorm runs at 1080p @ 60fps. Ok, so it's really not a big deal. But 10 things that are not big equal one huge customer crap fest.

Quote: "This was shameless, how could they do it?!"


This is the SAME company that impersonated and invented movie critics and published reviews on their own movies. And tried to get away with it. Sony thought people wouldn't notice, and someone dug a little deep and discovered that Sony's marketing team is made up by a bunch of suits who think their customers are mindless stoned frothy idiot zombies who can't think for themselves.

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Steve J
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 03:46
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...holy crap, *me bans all sony products forever*

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Krilik
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 04:10
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Quote: "Dude, I would make that thread myself. It's not a us vs. Sony forum. But it's more like a Sony-vs.-their-customers company. They are literally crapping on their customers."


Last time I checked capitalism allows choice. I hear people complaining all the time about how Sony treats them, yet they aren't forced to use Sony products. If you don't like it, then don't buy it. Why should people who buy Sony products that don't care have to be spoken for by people who choose to buy what they don't like? You act like everyone who's priviledged enough to be able to buy their luxuries should be upset. When there are people out there who don't care what Sony does, and just want to play their PS2s, PSPs, and PS3s. Regardless of what Sony said it could do.

Let me know when your air, water, and shelter don't work, then you'll have my sympathy.

Quote: "They should have thought about that before announcing at CES during their keynote address that MotorStorm runs at 1080p @ 60fps. Ok, so it's really not a big deal. But 10 things that are not big equal one huge customer crap fest."


I'm sure they did. And I'm sure they didn't like how it backfired on them either. Everyone acts like they are purposely releasing false information, when its oh-so-apparent that false information has backfired multiple times. Any slight mistake in the heat of their recently bad press is always blow out of proportion as them trying to get away with a giant conspiracy. How long were you falsly lead to believe Motorstorm ran at 1080p @ 60fps? A day? That harmed your consumer decision how? And how long were you lead to believe Sony won an award for the SIXAXIS? A day... Two at tops. Let me guess, you made some pretty hefty investments during that time. Please. If anything all it didn't was relinquish your moral ambuguity towards Sony, as if there was any to begin with. I can confidently say that the majority of the gaming market relies on critics for their information. And that's just a blatant fact around the internet. But somehow you are convinced that Sony is misleading people and should be scolded for it, even though I bet you couldn't find one person that still believes either two of those things and cared about it. I'll even go as far to say that the majority of people got that information from a third-party source and NOT directly from Sony. That most of their information from Sony comes directly from a gaming blog or news site, and relied on the blog or news site to depict accurate information. And that most people were aware that Sony lied before they were lead to believe Sony told the truth about either two of those things.

And on top of that, no one is going to bother recognizing any positive aspects, or sides to a story about this matter, because its popular to hate Sony right now. You'd have to be stupid to publish an article with Sony in a positive light as a reporter. You'll lose your readers, and popularity.
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Jeku
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 04:26 Edited at: 13th Jan 2007 04:28
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Quote: "That most of their information from Sony comes directly from a gaming blog or news site, and relied on the blog or news site to depict accurate information."


You're right---- dozens and dozens of indie blog authors who were present at the keynote did a great job relaying this information to us And what does that matter anyways?

And who can forget the now defunct alliwantforxmasisapsp.com? This "personal" site showed up with "teens" saying they love their "psp entertainment system" (does anyone even call it that?) They release rap sons on YouTube, trying to spread their message about their love. Oops, busted. Sony created the site trying to piggyback on the success of lonelygirl15.

Here's a rap that was saved before Sony pulled the plug:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx1H7-HhngE

Sony fanboys are coming out of the woodwork and crying that we're picking on Sony and not MS or Nintendo. I'm still waiting for Nintendo to flat-out lie.

Quote: "That harmed your consumer decision how?"


Of course it didn't affect my consumer decision, but hundreds of Sony fanboys were high-fiving each other when they heard the news. Come on, you know it's true.

And it's not just one thing. It's dozens of things, one after the other. It just gets old fast, and finally consumers are opening their ears to it.

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Izzy545
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 04:53
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I work at best buy and we've had 6 PS3s sitting on our shelves for weeks. At least twice someone has brought one up to buy it, asked me what the price is, and told me never mind. However I still get asked when wiis are coming in every single day, we got a shipment of 30 in recently and they sold out within the hour. Wii FTW?

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Krilik
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 05:06 Edited at: 13th Jan 2007 05:07
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Quote: "You're right---- dozens and dozens of indie blog authors who were present at the keynote did a great job relaying this information to us And what does that matter anyways?"


Because a day later it was confirmed false. Its amazing because I was aware it was false before I ever thought it was true and I'm sure there were thousands in the same boat I'm in. Sony didn't mislead anyone.

Quote: "And who can forget the now defunct alliwantforxmasisapsp.com? This "personal" site showed up with "teens" saying they love their "psp entertainment system" (does anyone even call it that?) They release rap sons on YouTube, trying to spread their message about their love. Oops, busted. Sony created the site trying to piggyback on the success of lonelygirl15."


Why are you giving me more examples of things I don't care about? That doesn't prove anything except that you think Sony conducts immoral marketing techniques. And I say, some people don't care, and will buy their products regardless of whether they saw those or not.

Quote: "Sony fanboys are coming out of the woodwork and crying that we're picking on Sony and not MS or Nintendo. I'm still waiting for Nintendo to flat-out lie."


Uh-whatever. What are you trying to prove is the point. I like Sony, and I know they lie. There's nothing more you can do. So whatever.


Quote: "Of course it didn't affect my consumer decision, but hundreds of Sony fanboys were high-fiving each other when they heard the news. Come on, you know it's true.

And it's not just one thing. It's dozens of things, one after the other. It just gets old fast, and finally consumers are opening their ears to it."


Just as how hundreds of Xbox fanboys were high-fiving each other when they thought the 360 was selling better than the PS2 did. What's your point? All that proves is Sony fanboys are trying to prove their system is better, just like Xbox fanboys. And it didn't even matter, because I've read comments on the internet about Motorstorm not being in 1080p and Sony fanboys are saying "Who can tell the difference"

It also gets old fast when all I see on the internet is people telling me how much Sony lies, as if I didn't know. Honestly, do you really think that many people live under a rock? And I don't see how its your job to make sure what other consumer do and don't do. Read the rest of my previous post.
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Steve J
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 05:10
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then stop arguing. We know your just trying to prove it to yourself in your mind your right, but if you dont care about what we say, dont reply

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Krilik
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 05:16
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How am I not right? People bought PS3s. People know Sony lies. Telling people Sony lies does not stop them from buying a PS3.
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Steve J
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 05:37
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Only some people didnt stop, there are still some who wont buy it. Just because the few buy it, doesnt mean the whole will accept it.

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Jeku
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 05:37
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Quote: "Telling people Sony lies does not stop them from buying a PS3."


Actually it does.

Quote: "Why are you giving me more examples of things I don't care about?"


You might be a nice guy, girl, or whatever, but I'm not specifically talking to you

Other people *do* care about this, otherwise we wouldn't be reading about it on every other gaming blog.

Quote: "It also gets old fast when all I see on the internet is people telling me how much Sony lies, as if I didn't know."


Well then take your own advice and don't read the thread if you'll get offended?

Quote: "And I don't see how its your job to make sure what other consumer do and don't do. "


2 things:
- did I say "don't buy a PS3"? I couldn't care less what you spend your money on, really.
- this is a public forum, where one can express their opinions. If you don't like what you read, respond with something more than "Uh-whatever." and we'll discuss this properly.

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Krilik
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 07:44
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Quote: "Actually it does."


No it doesn't. The people that won't buy a PS3 because they don't like Sony, wouldn't have bought one regardless.

Quote: "Other people *do* care about this, otherwise we wouldn't be reading about it on every other gaming blog."


Umm... Okay. Because its not popular to do so like I've mentioned before. There are only two types of people who care, the ones that need to feed their own anti-Sony opinion (as can be seen in the comments in that YouTube video you linked to), and the people who are tired of hearing about it. Self-serving posts are redundant, you know, and the other party knows. The point your making doesn't go anywhere.

Quote: "Well then take your own advice and don't read the thread if you'll get offended? "


Don't remember saying I did, but whatever.

Quote: "2 things:
- did I say "don't buy a PS3"? I couldn't care less what you spend your money on, really.
- this is a public forum, where one can express their opinions. If you don't like what you read, respond with something more than "Uh-whatever." and we'll discuss this properly."


What you quoted didn't relate to anyone buying a PS3. It relates to the habits of consumers, i.e. what information they have before buying products. You act like everyone should be aware of what Sony does before buying their products. And through that you think its "working" by stating this: "and finally consumers are opening their ears to it."

Quote: ""Sony fanboys are coming out of the woodwork and crying that we're picking on Sony and not MS or Nintendo. I'm still waiting for Nintendo to flat-out lie.""


This is not opinion. This is you making a statement as if it was fact. Me responding "Uh-whatever" to it was being generous. I shouldn't even have acknowledged it, and I wasn't going to, but you obviously think everyone except Sony fanboys enjoy reading the same stuff over and over. And then there's the fact that you call anyone who disagrees fanboys. Why do people who are annoyed with people attacking Sony have to be fanboys?

There is no point in discussing this. Because its a matter or morality and nothing more. And you're basing it on things you couldn't possibliy know were true. You assume Sony purposely mislead and lied to try and get "good" press, knowing the award was for the DualShock and not the SIXAXIS. Yes, that would be "shameless", but you only assume that happened, not that it did.
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 08:32
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Quote: "This is the SAME company that impersonated and invented movie critics and published reviews on their own movies."


True, but remember every movie company lies in these adds in one way or another, by cherrypicking words from remarks. If I were a famous movie critic and said..

"Scary Movie X was the worst movie I have seen in my life, the director and cast should be thrown in a gas chamber and forced to breath the stink the movie emanates."

They would surely quote me in a comercial as saying "A gas", so taken out of context, but I can no say i did not utter the words in their ad. This happens all the time. Just saying Sony is not alone in this sort of practice.

Quote: "People know Sony lies. Telling people Sony lies does not stop them from buying a PS3."


As for the first part of this statement, the general public (not the techno-geek club we are in) are quite unaware of Sony's habits.

As for the second part, I disagree, while not everyone who hears about it says "No PS3 for me!", some people have declined to buy the PS3 after learning of Sony's current track record. I don't think there is anyone out there who would be attracted to buying a PS3 by their crap attitude toward the consumer, so would conclude that the only effect of their tactics has been to sell less PS3's then they could have no matter if it has "Real Time Weapons Change" or not. My sister-in-law is one of these people, after she learned about things Sony was doing (prior to this incident) she took their PS2 and all the games down to the pawn shop. She returned a few new games she had bought my nephew for christmas, then bought a Wii, extra remote and a few games for him. Mind you she is big on this kind of stuff, she won't shop at WalMart either since seeing that "High price of Low Costs thing", but good for her.

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Crazy Ninja
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 08:32
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Quote: "You act like everyone should be aware of what Sony does before buying their products."


they should. I wouldn't buy a product from some company who lies to me about their stuff. Don't you have anything better to do than keep on participating in these Sony versus the world threads?

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Jess T
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 08:54
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Given that they aren't exactly the most straight-forward company about, the products that they produce are top of the line kind of technologies. (not just the PS3, but all Sony products)

Personally, I don't listen to anything posted on Blogs or released at E3, or anything like that - I reserve my judgements till the product is released and I can use it. I may use google + forums to research opinions on a product that I cannot test myself before buying, but even then I make sure I get a wide range of differing comments and look for factual evidence of certain aspects.

The company may have bad PR, but only PR, their products are still good

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Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 09:24
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Lets look at the profit.

Now only the companies themselves know how much making each unit actually costs so we can only see the total cost of the unit.

(Prices taken from Best Buy (Core systems only))

Unit -- Price -- Units Sold -- Total Money

X-Box 360 ------ $299.00 -- 1.1m ----- $328,900,000
Playstation 3 -- $599.00 -- 490,700 -- $293,929,300
Nintendo Wii --- $249.99 -- 604,200 -- $151,043,958

Although Sony sold the least amount of units their only $34,970,700 short of Microsoft. They only needed to sell another 58,383 PS3s to go over Microsoft... they would have still sold less units than Nintendo but make more profit than the other companies.

And that's all companies really care about... their profit.
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 09:26
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Quote: "The company may have bad PR, but only PR, their products are still good"


Quite true, but for myself anyway, if a clothing company makes top of the line clothes at a great price, but the clothes are made in a sweatshop in china where they make 11 year old kids work for squat, I won't buy them regardless of quality. Sometimes making a good product is just not enough.

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Saikoro
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 09:49 Edited at: 13th Jan 2007 09:50
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Grog: That's not quite accurate, as you haven't taken production cost into account, which we all know costs more than $599.99 USD per unit for the PS3, and that most grabbed the Premium X360 console before they would consider the core system at all.

Quote: "No it doesn't. The people that won't buy a PS3 because they don't like Sony, wouldn't have bought one regardless. "

I used to LOVE Sony, and the PS2 is still my favorite system out of the last-gen systems (I didn't even bother purchasing an Xbox or GC until this past year!) and was quite looking forward to their PS3, even at $599.99. However, Sony's business practices are not something I want to promote by purchasing their system as they are now. I mean sure, businesses have to play rough to win (Nintendo back in the late 80's), but outright lying to your actual consumer, as well as carrying an air of arrogance not just toward your competitors, but towards consumers is rather unacceptable. Stealing sixaxis tech from Nintendo-inspired hardware? Fine, if it makes it a better product, go for it. Using pricey Blu-Ray and selling your console to match? Thats okay, most companies would just as soon sell you a $50 product for $450. But using backhanded marketing tactics, lying to the consumer, and otherwise supplying themselves with unwarranted publicity is not something I want to signal to future companies as perfectly okay, and millions of others would think the same. You're arguing with them.

I hope Sony survives and learns from their mistakes, and return to what they had with the PS2: a solid, amazingly fun single player console.


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dab
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 09:55
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I was thinking that the PS3 was really sweet when I first heard of it. But in the magazines, when Sony didn't release the price for it until the console released (well, almost when it came out), I decided it wasn't worth it. So, I turned to my PS2 and continued play GTA.

Take heed, never take advantage of the things you need, never let your self be overcome by greed. Walk a strigh line, pick up your speed and try. Everyone deserves a piece of the pie By: Shaggy
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 11:04
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Grog by the best numbers (in sony's favor) that I have seen they are losing $145 per unit sold. Microsoft is making $75.40 per unit sold. Nintendo, again many numbers lowest I have seen is a profit of $51.60 per unit.

Unit loss/gain sold balance

X-Box 360 ------ $75.40---- 1.1m ----- +$82,940,000
Playstation 3 -- -$145 ---- 490,700 -- -$71,151,500
Nintendo Wii --- $51.60 --- 604,200 -- +$31,176,720

The real money is made in the titles (which Sony can't sell), now production cost does decrease as you make more units, but SOny will likely never make money on the ps3 itself. Likely why they project a loss of 1.7 billion for the gaming division.

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FredP
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 13:18
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Quote: "You assume Sony purposely mislead and lied to try and get "good" press, knowing the award was for the DualShock and not the SIXAXIS. Yes, that would be "shameless", but you only assume that happened, not that it did. "


Can you come up with a better explanation?
Sony knew the award was for the dual shock.They lied about it.And it was intentional...or don't you read any news at all?
How could they "accidently" say it was for the new controller when the knew it wasn't?
The new PS3 controller has gotten a bad rep because of its lack of vibration (yet another Sony screw up...if they would have paid the people that they owed money to in the first place the PS3 would have vibration) so they decided to tell everybody the award was for its new controller.
I am not necessairly a Sony basher.I have a PS2 and plenty of games for it.Bot Sony screwed up badly with the PS3 and they deserve to be held accountable.
And that is up to us...the consumer.Money talks.If people don't spend an outrageous amount of money buying this and supporting Sony's irresponsible actions and attitude then they will either change their ways or go bankrupt.
There are always the sheep that will go out there and buy the latest Playstation and there are gamers who are buying it to play whatever they like.As for the rest of us...complaining may not help but keeping my money in my wallet will sure make a difference.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 22:27
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Krilik... one Sony fanboy to another, and don't take this personally because I have no intention of being rude, but seriously, we both know Sony was wrong for what they said, and arguing as fiercely as you're arguing just makes the rest of Sony's dedicated fanbase look bad. Again, not trying to be a jerk or anything, but I agree with others that Sony should put more care into what they say and how they say it. Maybe, just maybe it was a mistake, a misprint by some intern or something, but Sony has been pretty nasty lately, there's no denying that. In my opinion, and again, this is one proud, hardcore Sony Fanboy to another... your approach isn't really helping our side win this debate because in this debate, "was sony wrong for saying this," we definitely lost regardless

I agree with Jess... Sony's gear across the board is fantastic. With maybe Canon being the exception, they have the best digital and analog video equipment in the world. I've never owned a Sony product that hasn't lasted a super-long time, especially trinitron TV's (but OMG are they rediculously heavy). Regardless of what console is your favorite, I'd have a hard time believing there's many people who'd say the PS3 is "crap." From a technical standpoint, and in terms of how many games it has, it runs circles around the competition... it's just overly expensive and Sony's execs have been semi-evil lately (only "semi" to me based on what I consider to be evil), and that is, as far as I can tell anyway, the basis for most intelligent people's arguements at the ground level. In terms of sales, I've been anticipating sales like this vocally for a long time now, and so far everything is going as planned. And duely anticipated, everyone is assuming Sony is losing when the battle's only started. I'm sure Sony is anticipating this as well... they aren't the biggest electronics company in the world because of their charming personalities or talent playing the flute. So fear not Krilik... we'll win this battle yet. But not with fiery flamewars on TGC

Quote: "And that's all companies really care about... their profit."

That's what I always argue against lol. Just once I'd like to see a huge company focus more attention on making their customers and employees happy than on raking in profits, but eh, it's nothing more than a pipe dream

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And I'm there to be easily irritated... what are friends for lol


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 22:41
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Quote: "No it doesn't. The people that won't buy a PS3 because they don't like Sony, "


That's not true, I've been with Sony consoles and think they're awesome, but I'm not getting a PS3 because I feel Sony have let me down, in the sense that I'm a student with little money, which is silly really, I think they should have looked at their target audience a bit better.

The biggest marketability with consoles is 12-21 (typically), 12-16 years old would be smooching money off their parents and a PS3 would be a big present, not many families will be able to give, perhaps you will find spoilt brats, lucky sods and upper middle class and upper class will get it. 16-21, they have a job, but they are typically students, students have little money to spare, except perhaps 16-18 year olds, but most will have better things to spend their money on and so they will go for the cheaper console, 18-21 year olds, their customers may be mostly uni students or people with a full time job, okay people with a full time job will be able to afford it, but I can imagine them starting their own lives. Out of the people I know in those areas, will by a Wii or a 360 or use their PC but are put off by the PS3 because of it's biggest issue, the price and these are the sort who would buy it and play it.

I for one, will not likely get a PS 3 until they go down when I'm at uni and I have enough to buy it, or after uni once I've got a career.

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Zappo
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 00:50
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Quote: "The biggest marketability with consoles is 12-21 (typically)"

I think there is a much bigger range than that. The people (like me) who were kids and got into home gaming with the 8 bit machines went on to spend money on 16 bit machines when they were older. Then they got into the PlayStation/N64 and PS2/Xbox when those came out. I wrecken you would be suprised at how many of these are still into playing games consoles and would now be in their late 20's or early to mid 30's. These are the people with the most disposable income and probably Sony's target, rather than students.
The talk of losses and profits hasn't yet mentioned how much the retailers make on each console. That can make a huge difference on how each console is advertised in the high street and what bundle deals come out. If anyone has this info I would be interested in seeing it (and I mean real facts rather than 'my mate who works in a shop says they make $4,000,000 on every Wii sold')
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Jeku
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 02:33
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Quote: "and in terms of how many games it has, it runs circles around the competition."


Wha-wait. You were sounding so good there in your post, until you said this. What games runs "circles" around the competition? Name just one, please. Name games that are out, not simply stating Sony exclusives because they are quickly jumping ship to 360 in large numbers.

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Raven
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 03:36
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@Klick - I'd find the thread but I can't honestly be arsed, and trust me it fully outlines the "shipped" figures from both Sony (PS2) and Microsoft (XBOX & XBOX 360), as well as the sold units; not those sold to retailers but by retailers from the USA, Europe, and Japanese Markets.

While the other markets might matter, they only generally account for 5% of the total sales against those three areas (in Europe itself the UK accounts for over 75% of sales). There were not only figures but the links to where these figures were taken from, which included independant research companies.

Quote: "I'm still waiting for Nintendo to flat-out lie."


In the past 3 console generations, I've not actually seen Nintendo lie about the capabilities or what they were hoping to achieve with the consoles they have shipped. I think this comes more on the fact they focus on the titles not the hardware.

The GameCube (last generation) was their last bid to make an extremely powerful home console, and imo they achieved that. Given the specifications of the other consoles, and abilities of each.. the GameCube provided possibly the best platform, but as I've only been lucky enough to program on the PS2 and Xbox I only know of their physical capabilities.
(which have been far lower than what Sony and Microsoft have claimed)

This all ends up being like the graphics and processor wars on the Windows PC market really. Each claim they're the best and can run such'n'such.. but when it comes down to it realistically there is never really that much difference. It's what you do with it that makes the real difference.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 04:13
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Actually Raven, Sony's sales figures that they report are units SOLD to retailers. Retailers don't just get consoles and split profits with these companies, as anyone whose worked in retail can tell you. Sony sells these units to retailers, and those retailers sell them to us and turn a profit from that. So the number of units shipped is technically the number of units sold, even if all of those consoles weren't eaten up by consumers... Sony still made their money from each and every one.

@ Jeku: I said "how many games it has," not "how many games everyone loves." While a very minute handful of Sony-exclusive titles are "jumping ship" for the 360 and/or Wii, it still has thousands upon thousands of titles (when you count the backwards compatability) that the other consoles don't have. And until Sony sells a few hundred more titles, that backwards compatability should definitely count for something because every PS3 owner I know has already beaten most of the games they have for the console and now they're going back to the oldies-but-goodies. But I could name more than a few that are still (and always will be) Sony-exclusive... the Getaway, Killzone, Gran Turismo, etc... although they probably shouldn't count because they're made by Sony lol.


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 07:42
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Quote: "(when you count the backwards compatability) that the other consoles don't have."


Tell me you are kidding. Lets not talk about the thousands upon thousands of ps2 games, cds, etc that will not play on the ps3 because they do not conform to the current standard.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 11:31
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Quote: "I think there is a much bigger range than that. "


I was thinking the biggest, but I could be wrong, but that age range would be taking a blow IMO if they got a PS3 because of the price, but I'm sure there are plenty of older and younger audiences, but I think the biggest market is teens to young adult, and if you try to ring them dry of their money or make them save up, then they're most likely going to go to your competitors, I personally would love to get a PS3 when they come out here, but I can buy a PC at the same spec as that with more HD space for the same/similar price and which one do I need more?

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 11:39
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Main target range of the next gens (360,ps3) is males 17-35. Wii is another story, they designed not only for a broader age group but also toward women.

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Jess T
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 12:03 Edited at: 14th Jan 2007 12:05
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Hang on a sec Hobgoblin... How can a remote be designed more toward women (or men for that matter)?

Now, I know we can get into the semantics of how based on physical aspects of women, a smaller remote with smaller buttons is more suited to the general population of women, but what's that got to do with the fact that it has tilt sensors and gyroscopes?

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David R
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 12:30
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Quote: "(when you count the backwards compatability) that the other consoles don't have."


Umm... backwards compatibility isn't special, in this gen it's practically expected. 360 plays Xbox games. Wii plays GC games. So what? The PS3 plays PS2 games (in a broken fashion). Am I supposed to be impressed by that?

Quote: "Hang on a sec Hobgoblin... How can a remote be designed more toward women (or men for that matter)?

Now, I know we can get into the semantics of how based on physical aspects of women, a smaller remote with smaller buttons is more suited to the general population of women, but what's that got to do with the fact that it has tilt sensors and gyroscopes?"


It's nothing to do with the remote. It's the games and marketing that are openly aimed at a broad audience.


"History shall be kind to me, for I intend to write it" - Winston Churchill
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Jess T
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 12:42
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Ah, so you're saying they're marketing it toward those groups, it's not actually designed for them... My mistake

However, having said that, down here in Aus, there was a (very) short stint of Wii ads about a month before it was released, and since then I haven't heard anything about it

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Josh
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 12:59 Edited at: 14th Jan 2007 12:59
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WOAH people! This has gone from friendly debate to almost flame-war, of which there is no need!


@ Krilik:

You make some fair points, but I think you are not seeing this from the point of view of the
mass market. As Atticus Finch once said; put yourself in the shoes of someone else and see how
they view the situation, its something that a huge amount of people seem unable or unwilling
to do.



As for the numbers of consoles sold; who really cares about the EXACT number.

X360 has sold ~10 million in a year.
Wii has sold ~4 million in 2 months.
PS3 has sold ~1 million in 2 months.

What we are seeing with the DS/PSP is that the DS has outsold the PSP 4:1 over the holiday
season. Why? Because it appeals to everyone except maybe the ultra-hardcore gamers (which is a
small market anyway). I expect we will see the same with the Wii/PS3 because they are using
EXACTLY the same business models as their handheld counterparts. In this case, the simplest
observations are often the most accurate.



Quote: "it still has thousands upon thousands of titles (when you count the backwards
compatability)"


If we said the same thing for the DS, the DS would have over 1,000 games available for it,
probably significantly more than that once we include all the games that the western world
never sees. But only a minority of people will specifically go out and buy the older gen games
to play on the new platforms.



We'll save this thread and see how things really do pan out in the future.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 23:43 Edited at: 14th Jan 2007 23:43
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Quote: "Umm... backwards compatibility isn't special, in this gen it's practically expected. 360 plays Xbox games. Wii plays GC games. So what? The PS3 plays PS2 games (in a broken fashion). Am I supposed to be impressed by that?"

Actually, the PS3 plays games from the PS1 and PS2 and is backwards-compatable with every single game that meets Sony's Technical Requirements Checklist... about 97% of their games. With 7,902 titles for the PS1 and 8,181 titles for the PS2 worldwide (stat), that's 16,083 games total... which leaves you with about 15,600 units when you take out the 3% of PS1/PS2 games that don't run. I'd hardly call that broken, seeing as how a lot of XBox games don't run on the 360, and the ones that do require an emulator. And the Wii is far more backward compatable than the 360, but the Gamecube didn't have nearly as many games as the PS2, let alone the PS2 and PS1 combined, and while you can play older Nintendo games from the catalog, you need to download them to do it. In terms of backward compatability, the PS3 wins, no contest. I'd hardly call it "broken."


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Zappo
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 00:40
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Just to add fuel to the argument of prices I watched an interesting report today which featured a spokesperson from EGM. He mentioned something about the PS3 which I had not seen details of before (probably because I hadn't looked). Now, we don't yet have the PS3 in the UK yet so anyone elsewhere in the world will have to correct me if its different in their country, but the whole online game play community is supposedly free. This includes the ability to download games, videos, demos, chat, a friends list and Web browsing - everything that the XBox 360 Live offers (plus possibly more) at no extra charge. Now Sony are saying that the PS3 is so 'future proof' that there won't be another one for 10 years. I am sure this is debatable but even if you only played it for 6 years thats a saving of $300 (£153) over XBox Live (again, correct me if I am wrong). Seeing as being online seems to be a major part of gaming now which is growing, its almost a necessity. The huge price of the PS3 suddenly doesn't seem quite so huge.
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Antidote
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 01:07
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Yeah except you get what you pay for. Let me break it down for you.

XBox Live = Good
PlayStation Online = Bad

I'm too tired of stating this to go into the specifics. Someone else explain this.


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 02:25
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I've not heard a single person who owns a PS3 say PS3's online service was bad. In fact, from every single person I know who owns both, they say *emphatically* that the PS3 service is superior to XBox Live. And to top that off, PS3's online has EVERYTHING that Live has and more, and it's free (as it should be with how much they charge for the console, lol). Anyway, stop dissing PS3's online until you actually give it a spin . You'll probably end up liking it quite a bit!


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 03:11 Edited at: 15th Jan 2007 03:23
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Matt, have to say you must live in Sonyville, a place where they all sell out and people leave Wii on the shelve and PSonline is better then Xbox live. From people I have talked to and from reviews on G4, psonline is drastically inferior to Xbox live, terrible problems with lag and disconnection. As for backward compatability comparisons that 3% was the projected amount, reports have been more in the 18-20% range of old games that do not work, and the number increses all the time. Tons of CD's will not play at all.

For those interested here is a link to see if your old ps/ps2 games have an issues.

[href=http://www.us.playstation.com/Support/CompatibleStatus]
http://www.us.playstation.com/Support/CompatibleStatus[/href]

Some games will play with problems like no sound, messed up graphics etc, though they have issues Sony calls then compatible.

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Steve J
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 03:19
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@Sony Fanboys:

Let me tell you how history repeats itself...here is the best example I know:

Panasonic 3DO Interactive
Released in 1993
The 3DO was a concept. \"Create the blueprints for a next-generation, 32-bit, do-it-all, set-top system that is fully upgradeable and license the actual hardware manufacturing to some of the world\'s largest electronics manufacturers.\" That\'s the 3DO. Trip Hawkins, founder of the 3DO company, joined forces with RJ Mical and Dave Needle to create the most innovative system of the \'90s. The 3DO was originally designed to be the next step in home entertainment: Audi-o, vide-o, 3D-O. The creators hoped it would become as common as the VCR and as fun and entertaining as a TV, VCR, CD player, video game system and computer combined. The idea was sound. Unfortunately, the execution of the idea was not.

Many companies obtained licenses to produce 3DO systems, including Goldstar, Sanyo, Samsung, AT&T, Creative Labs and the world\'s largest electronics company, Panasonic. With the idea that the 3DO was to become a multi functional part of everyone\'s home entertainment centers, the unit was released in 1993 with an MSRP of $700.

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Jess T
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 03:45
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Haha Steve, you copied that from the site I posted

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Jeku
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 04:42
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Quote: "they say *emphatically* that the PS3 service is superior to XBox Live."


You *didn't* just say that! It's really not a good idea to make things up, as like you I also know people who own PS3s and they DON'T say that it's superior to Live. It's one thing to be a fanboy, but another altogether if you have to resort to making things up.

Seriously, do yourself a favour. In fact, I also think you're making up the fact that the stores in your area have Wii's in stock but not PS3s, as this is adverse to every single other report you can find on the net. And you live in a giant city for crying out loud. I can *maybe* see this in some remote EB out in the boonies, but come on.

Quote: "require an emulator."


Of course they do. The 360 hardware is big-endian architecture while the original Xbox is little-endian. There is no automatic conversion process that works flawlessly, so it's a lot of manual work. If the hardware architecture were the same, there would be no doubt 100% backwards compat.

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Chris K
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 13:16
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Quote: "In fact, from every single person I know who owns both, they say *emphatically* that the PS3 service is superior to XBox Live."


*blinks*
*weeps*
*dies*

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Deathead
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 15:42 Edited at: 15th Jan 2007 15:43
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It's funny isn it first they copy Xbox with something and now they copy the nintendo wii with the controller because if you watched a certain gamer tv it show in full a gamer throwing about the controller. Whats next mr.sony copying the paris hilton lookalike!?LOL

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Josh
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 17:53
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Quote: "It's funny isn it first they copy Xbox with something and now they copy the nintendo wii with the controller..."


It's not like that's something new, they've already copied the D-Pad, analogue stick, rumble pack and now motion sensing from Nintendo.

I must say though that the N64 analogue stick is far superior to the digital "analogue" stick on the PS1/2 controllers. I expect the same can be said of the Wii/PS3 motion sensing although I haven't actually used a PS3 to test this yet.

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Jess T
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 04:09
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Josh, I have to disagree with you there...
Althought I haven't owned an N64, I've played quite a bit, and noticed that the stick seems very sluggish and wears out quickly (starts to stick, or has no resistance at all) compared to the PS1/2 sticks.

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Xander
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 05:17
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I think what he is saying about the analog sticks is that the N64 ones were true analog, while the PS1/2 were usually used as digital devices in the games. The games rarely took advantage of the fact that it was analog. I do agree with you, Jess, that the N64 controllers wore out fairly quickly. But Mad Catz made a nice controller, their second version, with the "ball" analog stick. It was very nice, and comfortable too. I don't know if anyone else has tried those, but I liked them.

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Jess T
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 05:46
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Ah, fair enough!
At any rate, my point still stands - Sony do make quite good, lasting products, regardless of their PR

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Raven
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 05:57
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Quote: "X360 has sold ~10 million in a year.
Wii has sold ~4 million in 2 months.
PS3 has sold ~1 million in 2 months."


X360 - 10.4 million units 12months (2week(s) US headstart)
WII - 3.8 million units in 6 weeks (1week(s) US headstart)
PS3 - 580 thousand units in 6 weeks (no europe release)

Sorry but I have to say this again, cause it's almost unreal..

3.8 MILLION NINTENDO WII UNITS WORLDWIDE IN 6 WEEKS

Now, let's put this figure into perspective.
Sony sold 300,000 Playstation 2 units in Japan within 8 weeks of launch.
Sony sold 650,000 Playstation 2 units in US and UK within 8 weeks of launch.

Nintendo within 6 weeks, have sold at a 3:1 ratio of this. The Playstation 2 was far better recieved than the Playstation 3 has so far.

Nintendo haven't just broken the previous record for best-selling console, they've shattered it. They've proven without a doubt that they belong making games consoles.

Quote: "Actually, the PS3 plays games from the PS1 and PS2 and is backwards-compatable with every single game that meets Sony's Technical Requirements Checklist... about 97% of their games. With 7,902 titles for the PS1 and 8,181 titles for the PS2 worldwide (stat), that's 16,083 games total... which leaves you with about 15,600 units when you take out the 3% of PS1/PS2 games that don't run. I'd hardly call that broken, seeing as how a lot of XBox games don't run on the 360, and the ones that do require an emulator. And the Wii is far more backward compatable than the 360, but the Gamecube didn't have nearly as many games as the PS2, let alone the PS2 and PS1 combined, and while you can play older Nintendo games from the catalog, you need to download them to do it. In terms of backward compatability, the PS3 wins, no contest. I'd hardly call it "broken.""


Nintendo Wii plays every single previous Nintendo home console games with 100% compatibility. As well as providing 100% compatibility with GameCube hardware.

Oh Nintendo have also added libraries of games which are 100% compatible from the entire Sega home console range, as well as a selection of IBM-Compatible games.

Nintendo have promised to make sure that the entire library of over 1,000,000 Nintendo games are available by the first anniversary to download. GameCube games run directly from gamedisc. This isn't including the additional libraries being added by each of their old rivals, like Square-Enix, Atari, Sega, etc.

So, actually.. while the GameCube only had 1,500 titles and the Wii itself has ~15titles; anyone connected to the internet or a friend who is can download, store on SD-RAM, DVD-RW, DVD-RAM, Cellphone, NDS, iPOD, etc. and play their old games any-time they dang well feel like it from a library of 1 million plus.

Would that not mean that given the library size, and 100% compatibility that NINTENDO wins?

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Krilik
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 06:30
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Quote: "they should. I wouldn't buy a product from some company who lies to me about their stuff. Don't you have anything better to do than keep on participating in these Sony versus the world threads?"


Except all of the "lies" were proved false a day later... Your economic decision hinges on whether or not someone has lied. No one should buy anything from anyone ever by your logic, because I can confidently say everyone has lied at one time. And apparently I do have better things to do since I haven't been online for the past 3 days. When did personal insults come into play here? I think you're done talking.

Quote: "Given that they aren't exactly the most straight-forward company about, the products that they produce are top of the line kind of technologies. (not just the PS3, but all Sony products)

Personally, I don't listen to anything posted on Blogs or released at E3, or anything like that - I reserve my judgements till the product is released and I can use it. I may use google + forums to research opinions on a product that I cannot test myself before buying, but even then I make sure I get a wide range of differing comments and look for factual evidence of certain aspects.

The company may have bad PR, but only PR, their products are still good"


This is a perfect example of GOOD consumerism.

Quote: "Can you come up with a better explanation?
Sony knew the award was for the dual shock.They lied about it.And it was intentional...or don't you read any news at all?"


Right that's totally false. Again that's assumed. And yes, I could. How stupid do you think Sony is? They lie about accepting an award, and then you think they're going to tell the truth about how they already knew which controller it was for? I can honestly say that is the most illogical thing anyone could have ever done. If Sony intentionally lied, they would have lied and said it was an accident. If they accidently lied, they would have said it was an accident. I don't see how anyone could have known if it was intentional except for Sony. So yet again this goes back to whether or not you THINK they did it on purpose. And of course, if you're unhappy with them you're going to THINK they did.

Quote: "Krilik... one Sony fanboy to another"


I'm not a Sony fanboy. I just don't bash corporations because I think I'm self-righteous. There are far worse things Sony could do.

Quote: "That's not true, I've been with Sony consoles and think they're awesome, but I'm not getting a PS3 because I feel Sony have let me down, in the sense that I'm a student with little money, which is silly really, I think they should have looked at their target audience a bit better."


Your decision was based on economic conditions, not on how much you liked or disliked Sony.

What I'm talking about is someone who wants a PS3 finds out Sony commits an immoral act, then decides not to purchase a PS3 from them soley based on how they were acting. That's an example of a bad economic decision. To think Sony's behavior is dictated by whether or not a consumer purchases their products is just nonsense.


Quote: "You make some fair points, but I think you are not seeing this from the point of view of the
mass market. As Atticus Finch once said; put yourself in the shoes of someone else and see how
they view the situation, its something that a huge amount of people seem unable or unwilling
to do."


The mass market doesn't care if Sony lied about winning an award. What the mass market cares about is their own prestige and their own wallet. The only bad thing Sony has done toward the mass market is the $600 price tag. The mass market, and who I'm talking to are completely different.
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Chris K
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 10:28 Edited at: 16th Jan 2007 11:56
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Quote: "The PS3 is a total disaster on so many levels, I think It's really clear that Sony lost track of what customers and what developers wanted, I'd say, even at this late date, they should just cancel it and do a 'do over'. Just say, 'This was a horrible disaster and we're sorry and we're going to stop selling this and stop trying to convince people to develop for it.'"


Guess who?


Gabe Newell.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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