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Geek Culture / [STICKY] The Posting Competition

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Fallout3fan
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Posted: 28th Jul 2014 05:02
page

Willing to be hired as a voice actor for work and to put on a resume.
Indicium
18
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Posted: 28th Jul 2014 05:06
Quote: " It's even more controlling than Windows and has a horrid interface"


I don't find it to be controlling at all, have you actually used it?
Dar13
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Joined: 12th May 2008
Location: Microsoft VisualStudio 2010 Professional
Posted: 28th Jul 2014 05:09
Quote: " And for the record, Windows doesn't allow administrator ("root") access by default either."

If there's only one user on the system, then it has to be an administrator account(or else you lose administrator-level control of your system. Oops!*). So yes, Windows does have administrator access by default.

* You can enable the default administrator account which is essentially Windows's(s'?) counterpart to Linux's "root" account. However, this account is disabled by default in Windows 7.

Quote: " So...the Linux filesystem is the same as Android? (I know, Android is based on Linux, but I never quite knew how much had been changed) What a bummer. The Android filesystem is a nightmare to navigate. No global top-level root folder, multiple copies of the same folders that appear and disappear, confusing naming scheme..."

No. Linux has a variety of filesystems that are available to use, but they all use the same representative structure. This is immediately apparent when you first use Linux, so just download a VM tool such as VirtualBox and load a Linux ISO in it to mess with. A lot of your questions would be answered and the miscommunications/misunderstandings due to different terminology/connotations would be avoided.

Quote: "I also said that Windows doesn't crash because of its GUI, because for the most part, the Windows GUI is actually separate to its OS. That is, the standard Windows GUI is explorer.exe. Sure, the visual components themselves are part of Windows, but I've never once seen a crash because of that. If Explorer crashes, you just Ctrl-Alt-Delete, open task manager and restart Explorer."

You're reading too much into what I'm saying. You're also wrong.
Windows' GUI is not the explorer.exe, that is Windows'(Windows's?) file manager. A Linux equivalent would be Nautilus or Thunar.

In any case, I was referring to a generic hard crash where you either have to hard reset the computer or you get a BSOD. The type where the operating system does not have time to safely close a file that is currently open or safely shutdown any other type of data operation. Especially when dealing with binary files, a hard shutdown can corrupt a file easily. While certain programs such as MS Office have developed functionality that recover documents from situations like that, it's not something that Windows actively saves for you. Linux doesn't do that either for what it's worth. It just allows you a second layer to fall back to in case it's needed.

Quote: "I don't understand why you would need to do that, though. Surely the compile is the same on every system?"

If they're relying upon certain OS or hardware features, a makefile can help ascertain which OS is being used or if the hardware required is present. It also helps with dependency management and generating different types of compiles(optimized for speed, optimized for size[i.e. smaller executables], release builds with debugging information embedded, etc). It also can install the compiled application if that option is used within the makefile.

MrValentine
AGK Backer
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Playing: FFVII
Posted: 28th Jul 2014 05:13
WOW this OS debate has spanned 200~ posts

Clonkex
Forum Vice President
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Location: Northern Tablelands, NSW, Australia
Posted: 28th Jul 2014 05:33
Quote: "I don't quite get what you mean by bit and first part. Do you meant the word?"


And I don't understand that sentence What I meant is the outside bit with the holes in it (the actual "film") is too plain. Other than that, I was saying the first word was hard to read (impossible, for me).

Quote: "Dainty Pictures"


OH. THAT'S what it says. The first letter looked like a P and the last letter looked like a G. I do tend to have trouble reading unusual handwriting, however.

Quote: "The interface does seem a bit clunky, but I got used to it really quick. Of course, it might help that I have a huge-ass resolution (2560x1440), but even downscaled to 1080p I found it pretty easy to navigate."


Oh of course, THAT'S probably why I've been having so much bother with animation software. My res is only 1360x768, and most developers these days assume a minimum of 1080p. I normally have heaps of trouble just trying to make enough space to actually draw in. Maybe when I get a new monitor I'll try it again.

Quote: "I did study the manual for a good 30 minutes"


I studied it for a good 2 hours because I really want to be able to create animations (I have SO many brilliant ideas for funny skits), but in the end I couldn't get past the cramped interface.

Quote: "page"


?

Quote: "I don't find it to be controlling at all, have you actually used it?"


Many times, though not extensively.

Quote: "So yes, Windows does have administrator access by default."


You do, but programs don't. Same as Linux, I think.

Quote: "Windows's(s'?)"


Windows'

Quote: "just download a VM tool such as VirtualBox and load a Linux ISO in it to mess with. A lot of your questions would be answered and the miscommunications/misunderstandings due to different terminology/connotations would be avoided."


I frequently use VirtualBox and have it set up already, but the "just download" part is a little harder than you might think. No OS is exactly small (most are at least 500MB) and I can only download that amount in off-peak. Unfortunately, our off-peak has run out for the month and I'll have to wait 'til next month.

Please correct me if I state something incorrect. Even once I start using Linux I will likely say incorrect things due to inexperience. I have been enjoying this debate, but I would like it to remain a debate and not become an argument. So, if I say something that's plainly wrong, please correct me...

Quote: "You're also wrong."


...like so

Quote: "Windows' GUI is not the explorer.exe, that is Windows'(Windows's?) file manager."


You are (partially) wrong. Explorer is not just the file manager, it is also the task bar, start menu, system tray and several other crucial parts. People sometimes panic when it crashes because they can't do anything without their task bar, but Windows generally restarts it by itself.

However, I do agree that it isn't really the GUI. I still say the GUI itself never crashes, though.

Quote: "In any case, I was referring to a generic hard crash where you either have to hard reset the computer or you get a BSOD. The type where the operating system does not have time to safely close a file that is currently open or safely shutdown any other type of data operation. Especially when dealing with binary files, a hard shutdown can corrupt a file easily."


Ah, I see, you don't mean an OS corruption, you mean file corruption. Well, that can absolutely happen with a BSOD. However, I will say that I've had maybe 3 (or is it 4 now?) BSODs since 2008 on Windows 7, so in my experience it's been incredibly reliable.

Quote: "Linux doesn't do that either for what it's worth. It just allows you a second layer to fall back to in case it's needed."


Yes, I have to agree that is a good thing. I can't argue against that.

Quote: "If they're relying upon certain OS or hardware features, a makefile can help ascertain which OS is being used or if the hardware required is present."


Huh. I don't know that you would do that sort of thing on Windows. Actually, I think you would simply rely on pre-processor definitions. Maybe not, I don't know.

Quote: "It also helps with dependency management and generating different types of compiles(optimized for speed, optimized for size[i.e. smaller executables], release builds with debugging information embedded, etc)."


That's all done in VS project files on Windows with a GUI for handling it.

Quote: "WOW this OS debate has spanned 200~ posts "


lol wow

TheComet
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Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 28th Jul 2014 06:29
Quote: "Linking a youtube video is never going to work for me as I rarely have the download to watch them. Also, as I said, I actually don't care until it becomes a genuine problem."


Well that's a shame, because it's happening and it is a genuine problem. But if you want to keep being ignorant then that is your decision, just don't go around telling people it isn't a problem. That's a misinformed, wrong statement based on nothing other than your own opinion and lack of knowledge.

The video is a talk by Christopher Soghoian held at the anual Chaos Communication Congress in Hamburg, Germany. From the link (because people never click any links here): "He is currently the principal technologist and a senior policy analyst with the speech, privacy and technology project at the American Civil Liberties Union."

You could have also read the description of the video on youtube, but again, since people don't ever click links on this forum, I'll paste it here:

Backdoors, Government Hacking and The Next Crypto Wars

Law enforcement agencies claim they are "going dark". Encryption technologies have finally been deployed by software companies, and critically, enabled by default, such that emails are flowing over HTTPS, and disk encryption is now frequently used. Friendly telcos, who were once a one-stop-shop for surveillance can no longer meet the needs of our government. What are the FBI and other law enforcement agencies doing to preserve their spying capabilities? The FBI is rallying political support in Washington, DC for legislation that will give it the ability to fine Internet companies unwilling to build surveillance backdoors into their products. Even without such legislation, the US government has started to wage war against companies that offer secure communications services to their users. As the FBI's top lawyer said in 2010, "[Companies] can promise strong encryption. They just need to figure out how they can provide us plain text." At the same time, law enforcement agencies in the United States and elsewhere are acquiring the tools to hack into the computers of their own citizens. The FBI has purchased custom-built software, while other law enforcement agencies in the US and elsewhere use off-the-shelf spyware from companies like Gamma and Hacking Team. Regardless of the software they use, the capabilities are generally similar: They can enable a computer's webcam and microphone; collect real-time location data; and copy emails, web browsing records, and other documents.

@all

Here's another great talk by Kurt Opsahl, the Deputy General Counsel of the Electronic Frontier Foundation:
Everything we know about NSA spying

You may want to skip to 12:00 - that's where he gets to the interesting stuff.

Quote: "The UAC is optional and I have it disabled."


Your computer is therefore completely insecure. If a virus does ever end up executing on your computer, it will have total control over the entire system. That's not a wise thing to be doing at all.

Quote: "So...the Linux filesystem is the same as Android? (I know, Android is based on Linux, but I never quite knew how much had been changed) What a bummer. The Android filesystem is a nightmare to navigate. No global top-level root folder, multiple copies of the same folders that appear and disappear, confusing naming scheme..."


You have a very limited knowledge of filesystems so I won't even begin to explain. Just google it.

Quote: "And for the record, Windows doesn't allow administrator ("root") access by default either."


Yeah but you have UAC turned off, so now it does.

Quote: "But...most things in life are "free" in that sense. Why would you expect every program to be open-source? Is a developer not allowed to keep his work as his work? And besides that, who cares? (Ok, so apparently you care, so let me rephrase that) And besides that, who (apart from you) cares?"


Let's start with the entire open source community? The community responsible for creating the internet as we know it? The community responsible for laying the foundation for Mac, Android, and Linux? They're all BSD based systems and wouldn't exist without said community.

Free software is about more than it not costing anything. It's about perpetuating the knowledge of a free community. You're from America, right? You know what freedom is.

Quote: "That's all done in VS project files on Windows with a GUI for handling it."


But you can't automate the build process. You always have to manually open VS and click yourself through various import windows. When the software is built, you can't install it to a standard location either.

CMake does a good job of working around VS by using NMake, but not all projects use CMake. Those that don't are the most painful ones to build on Windows.

Dar13
18
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Joined: 12th May 2008
Location: Microsoft VisualStudio 2010 Professional
Posted: 28th Jul 2014 06:49
Quote: " Ah, I see, you don't mean an OS corruption, you mean file corruption. Well, that can absolutely happen with a BSOD. However, I will say that I've had maybe 3 (or is it 4 now?) BSODs since 2008 on Windows 7, so in my experience it's been incredibly reliable."

If a critical system file is open for writing at the time of the crash, it could cause OS corruption.

My flash player causes a video driver related BSOD every once in a while. As a result I've almost entirely moved to HTML5 video.

Quote: "Huh. I don't know that you would do that sort of thing on Windows. Actually, I think you would simply rely on pre-processor definitions. Maybe not, I don't know."

Well yes you could, but the Makefile can do that discovery and setting of preprocessor definitions for you.

Quote: "That's all done in VS project files on Windows with a GUI for handling it."

Some people manipulate text faster than a GUI. *shrug* Plus text can be automated a lot easier than a GUI in almost all cases.

Dark Java Dude 64
Community Leader
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Location: Neither here nor there nor anywhere
Posted: 28th Jul 2014 07:11
Why was this thread just locked?? He waited 11 days before posting again.

Why is it not permissible to reasonably double post to update GC WIP threads?

Flash is falling out of... Flashion.
MrValentine
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Playing: FFVII
Posted: 28th Jul 2014 07:15 Edited at: 28th Jul 2014 07:16
Quote: "Why is it not permissible to reasonably double post to update GC WIP threads?"


+1

EDIT

To add to this, I believe this has contributed to the demise of activity across these boards...

Dar13
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Location: Microsoft VisualStudio 2010 Professional
Posted: 28th Jul 2014 07:23 Edited at: 28th Jul 2014 07:27
Wait, so we can't double post on our own threads?! It's not like there's that many threads on the first page of the forum as it is.

Edit:
Quote: "Your computer is therefore completely insecure. If a virus does ever end up executing on your computer, it will have total control over the entire system. That's not a wise thing to be doing at all."

Not really. I also have UAC either all the way turned off or turned down to the point that it doesn't bother me. All UAC does is prevent program escalation without user input, and as most power users are administrators of their machine anyways it just gets in the way. Honestly, I'd rather type in my password everytime that UAC popped up than click the button. I type quicker than I can move the mouse.

MrValentine
AGK Backer
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Playing: FFVII
Posted: 28th Jul 2014 07:27
Quote: "It's not like there's that many active threads on the first page of the forum as it is."




Dark Java Dude 64
Community Leader
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Posted: 28th Jul 2014 07:54 Edited at: 28th Jul 2014 07:58
What do you say guys, we start a structured petition to get that rule changed? Double posting has its place, and spam/attention grabbing are clearly not its place. However, reasonable and constructive updating of one's own thread is perfectly fine. IMO, that thread should probably be unlocked. Anyone else agree? The way the rule is structured right now, you basically aren't allowed to update your thread unless people seem interested (and are posting).

Also, why are faucet fixtures so expensive????? :/ Standard faucets seem to go for at least $200.00 USD. One seemingly standard faucet I just saw costed $470.00 USD. I would expect them to be more like $50.00 USD.

Flash is falling out of... Flashion.
MrValentine
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Playing: FFVII
Posted: 28th Jul 2014 08:05
Quote: "Anyone else agree?"




Quote: "why are faucet fixtures so expensive????? "


Look for a whole Bath Tub Set, you will find that cheaper... will include them I know this because I ended up doing something similar, bought a pre-set bathroom set, tub loo sink... but did not like the tub so I bought that additional to the whole set, worked out cheaper than buying everything individually... And by cheaper, I mean magnitudes cheaper!

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 28th Jul 2014 08:29
Ah! Well, I'm not actually doing anything, just researching out of pure curiosity. But ah, interesting advice there!

Flash is falling out of... Flashion.
MrValentine
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Playing: FFVII
Posted: 28th Jul 2014 08:41 Edited at: 28th Jul 2014 08:43


So yeah, I am happy with the result now, I can navigate so much faster through the forum now, look at that transparent menu

EDIT

Tired lol used link instead of image fixed

Clonkex
Forum Vice President
16
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Joined: 20th May 2010
Location: Northern Tablelands, NSW, Australia
Posted: 28th Jul 2014 09:19
Quote: "Well that's a shame, because it's happening and it is a genuine problem."


Oh I AM going to watch it, just not immediately because I have to wait 'til next month.

Quote: "just don't go around telling people it isn't a problem. That's a misinformed, wrong statement based on nothing other than your own opinion and lack of knowledge."


I don't believe I ever said it wasn't a problem, and I would never say that. I can only say it's not a problem for me.

Quote: "You could have also read the description of the video on youtube"


Actually I couldn't, because I can't open YouTube or it starts loading the video.

Quote: "The FBI has purchased custom-built software"


The Machine.... it's REAL.

Quote: "Your computer is therefore completely insecure. If a virus does ever end up executing on your computer, it will have total control over the entire system. That's not a wise thing to be doing at all."


You are partially correct. The problem is that Windows UAC can be disabled automatically with a simple script (by emulating keypresses) with no notification to the user. The script can then force a restart, install software and run it as administrator with full access to everything. The only way to prevent this is to set the UAC to Always Notify, which notifies on system setting changes as well. The default value (for millions of PCs around the world) is to not notify the user when a system setting has been changed, because of the uproar from Vista.

The result of this is that UAC is not secure on its default value. Microsoft has decided, despite many security tech blogs' strong warnings, against fixing it. They say it is by design.

This means that I can safely have my UAC in the off position without increasing my risk as any virus/malware/adware/etc. can easily disable it anyway. Why don't I set it to Always Notify, you ask. Because it's horrible. It constantly pops up in your face.

HOWEVER. Microsoft's official statement also says that it's not a security vulnerability, because Windows 7 is designed to prevent malicious software reaching the computer in the first place. That's what I rely on, and it has served me well for the past 6-8 years.

Ok, so when I said UAC is useless when it can be disabled...that's not quite true. I have to admit this. It does actually afford more protection, by preventing admin-level viruses from running at all, or stopping something dead in its tracks if you accidentally click something. Additionally, when turned on, UAC provides registry virtualisation or somesuch. So it does infact give protection. But it's far too annoying.

In terms of security of Ubuntu vs. Windows 7, this post has some interesting points.

Quote: "You have a very limited knowledge of filesystems so I won't even begin to explain."


That sounds like an insult, but I will ignore.

I have a very limited knowledge of Android and Linux filesystems. I have an intimate knowledge of Windows filesystems.

Quote: "Yeah but you have UAC turned off, so now it does."


So? That was never my point.

Quote: "Let's start with the entire open source community? The community responsible for creating the internet as we know it? The community responsible for laying the foundation for Mac, Android, and Linux? They're all BSD based systems and wouldn't exist without said community."


Oh, I never said the open-source knowledge-sharing community was a bad thing or even not important. I just asked why seem to dislike closed-source programs. If they do the job and there's no open-source equivalent, what's it matter?

Quote: "You're from America, right? You know what freedom is."


Umm...no. I'm from Australia; you'd know that if you looked at my Location tag. The way I see it, freedom is the right to not distribute your knowledge and hard work to everyone; the right to keep your work and discoveries to yourself.

But again, I'm not saying closed-source is better than open-source, I'm just saying there's nothing wrong with it.

Quote: "But you can't automate the build process. You always have to manually open VS and click yourself through various import windows."

Quote: "Plus text can be automated a lot easier than a GUI in almost all cases."


There's probably actually a way to automate it, but since I don't know of any, I'll just agree with you. Yes, that's a disadvantage of VS over GCC. (Speaking of which: Does GCC use makefiles on Windows? Just curious)

Quote: "When the software is built, you can't install it to a standard location either."


Is that something people do? Normally I would just build the exe then run it. Not sure why you'd want it registered with the OS. Other than that, VS has the capability to run pre- and post-build commands, which allows you to copy the the built exe to another location.

Quote: "CMake does a good job of working around VS by using NMake, but not all projects use CMake."


CMake is amazing, when it's supported.

Quote: "Those that don't are the most painful ones to build on Windows."


Yes, but only because they were not designed for Windows. That's what I keep saying. Projects are easy to build on Windows when the people making them take the time to set them up for Windows. The opposite also would apply. Projects set up on Windows would be a nightmare (or impossible) to build on Linux.

Quote: "If a critical system file is open for writing at the time of the crash, it could cause OS corruption."


True. For the record, the same could occur on Linux, though I do accept that Linux has two layers that aid in total system crash-prevention.

Quote: "Well yes you could, but the Makefile can do that discovery and setting of preprocessor definitions for you."


True enough.

Quote: "Why is it not permissible to reasonably double post to update GC WIP threads?"


That's just unfair.

BiggAdd
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 28th Jul 2014 10:19
Quote: "Why was this thread just locked?? He waited 11 days before posting again.

Why is it not permissible to reasonably double post to update GC WIP threads?"


Because imagine if everyone started doing it. There is a rule in the WIP board I believe that allows for double posting with updates, but this is GC.

Quote: "The way the rule is structured right now, you basically aren't allowed to update your thread unless people seem interested (and are posting)."


That's how a forum is supposed to work! If nobody is interested in what you are posting, then the thread is supposed to drop down the list.

Dark Java Dude 64
Community Leader
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Location: Neither here nor there nor anywhere
Posted: 28th Jul 2014 11:00
Quote: "There is a rule in the WIP board I believe that allows for double posting with updates, but this is GC. "
Well... How about GC WIPs??? They are WIPs, after all. I mean yeah, people can head over to WIP if they want a thread which they can double post in to update, but something in me says that it wouldn't hurt to adopt a rule here too. Like, just for WIPs. Other GC threads should still disallow double posting.

Quote: "That's how a forum is supposed to work! If nobody is interested in what you are posting, then the thread is supposed to drop down the list."
I missed the day in school where they taught about forums.

Flash is falling out of... Flashion.
_Pauli_
AGK Developer
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Location: Germany
Posted: 28th Jul 2014 11:04 Edited at: 28th Jul 2014 11:07
Hey guys,

first of all I'm really sorry for causing trouble by double posting on my games thread!
I was aware of the rule to not double post, but I thought it was okay for devlog-like threads (as seen a lot on other WIP threads) in a reasonable manner. I even tried to avoid double posting by editing my last post with updates, but it just doesn't do it because the thread will get burried anyway.

Quote: "IMO, that thread should probably be unlocked."

Quote: "That's just unfair."


Thank you Dark Java Dude 64, MrValentine and Clonkex for taking a stance for me! I really appreciate it.

Maybe there should be a Work-In-Progress board for all kinds of stuff not made with TGC products. Otherwise people like me who really need serious feedback (and I was hoping to get just that from this cool developer community) will tend to use other forums like Tigsource that are very open towards this kind of stuff.

Again I'm really sorry and I know that I made a mistake now. I would be very happy if the thread gets unlocked again.

Play Super Footie Online: SuperFootie.com

Development News: Forum Thread
The Zoq2
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Posted: 28th Jul 2014 11:35 Edited at: 28th Jul 2014 11:59
Quote: "So...the Linux filesystem is the same as Android? (I know, Android is based on Linux, but I never quite knew how much had been changed) What a bummer. The Android filesystem is a nightmare to navigate. No global top-level root folder, multiple copies of the same folders that appear and disappear, confusing naming scheme..."


That's not really something I have considered and I was about to say that both were similar but after looking at it, there are a lot of diffirences. The similarities are that both linux and android have a "home" folder which does not require root/superuser acess, it's called sdcard<#> on android and home on linux. On both systems, the home folder is actually a subdirectory of the root dir but that's pretty much where the similarities end. On linux, the main dirs are /home, /dev which contains all devices connected (keyboards, gamepads, RAM, TTY's), /usr which contains all packages installed by the package manager, /opt where you commonly store programs and /mnt which contains mounted drives such as SD cards.

Android has a whole diffirent set of dirs except for /dev and /mnt which arn't really directories but contain external devices.

The linux file system is really diffirent from windows since it stores a lot more than files. A mounted harddrive becomes part of the same filesystem for example.

Quote: "And for the record, Windows doesn't allow administrator ("root") access by default either."

Well, most people turn of UAC anyway . And because of the filestructure on windows, a non admin can do a lot more than a non root user. On windows, you can install a program as long as you don't put anything in program files (I think, I havn't had UAC turned on since vista). The program can mess with any files it wants to, as long as it's not a protected file. On linux, you have access to /home/user only, you can extract a program in there and run it. But if you want to touch anything other than /home/user, you need that root acess. Personally im not that conserned with that kind of security, I know what I install and what it does, that's why I turned off UAC. But when I do turn off UAC, I want to be able to get acess to everything. The main reason I switched to linux was that windows often decided that I wasn't supposed to run that program, or I wasn't supposed to touch those files.

The worst example of that was when I installed a new version of the AppGameKit compiler from a zip file, extract it and replace the old one, something I have done a ton of times. Instead of working as I expected, I was no longer able to compile anything and only got a weird error code. After looking for ages, I looked in properties and found something that said something like "this program is from an unknown source and has been blocked from writing to the disk", so I disabled that and everything worked fine. That would have been fine if 1, it was standard procedure, a program can not write files until the user has allowed that. And/or 2, I was told about windows blocking the program. But none of that happned, I have only had that problem 2 times, it was a pain to track down both times, it would have been a good feature if it did it consistently and let the user know, but now it's just another inconsistent security feature. Linux does the same thing, any program you download from a zip file is blocked, in order to run it you need to either right click on it and select "allow executing as a program" or do "chown +x <program path>. The diffirence is that linux does it consistently, any program you download or any script you create has to go thru this, and linux tells you that you arn't allowed to run the program because it isn't marked as executable.

Quote: "Yes. EVERY TIME you want to install something or (probably) change a setting. I couldn't take it."

Actually, it has a timer on it and most programs that need root acess ask for it when you start them. So it's only once per program or about 10 minutes . Also, it's not as obstructive as windows, it doesn't minimize your games because java wants to update and it doesn't make your whole screen gray.

EDIT: didn't see those 20 posts on the next page

Quote: "You do, but programs don't. Same as Linux, I think."


That depends, if you use the root account for everything on linux, it's true. But that's incredibly bad practice and you should use a separate user account with permission to use sudo. Sudo temporarily gives you access to root so you can make your changes. If you run a program with sudo, that has root acess untill it's closed ect.

Quote: "Something regarding crashes ()"

I personally havn't had that much trouble with windows crashing. I have never had a BSOD that wasn't caused by the hardware, but I have had to frequently reboot the computer to fix random issues. However, my subjective experience says that linux programs don't crash nearly as much as windows programs. Last week, I went to a store to buy some new shoes, they had some fancy software for checking how you run on a treadmill and that crashed. A few days later, a doctor was going to look at something in my dads journal, the program crashed. Now that's usualy fine, just open the task manager and kill the program. But that didn't work on neighter of those ocations, to fix it, you had to manually end the process, not the program, to me it feels like if you press "end program", then "yes I want to end the program even if I might loose some data", you really want to end the program and it should be killed as soon as possible. But aparently that's not how windows does it . Also, that journal program didn't even have a process because it was run remotley or something.

Now, going back to rebooting to fix issues. I don't think I have ever fixed an issue on linux by rebooting, im not sure if I have been unlucky / lucky or if linux doesn't become weird after beeing on for a while. I have had to kill the x server ocationally which is essentially a reboot, but that was to fix issues with the x server and not with random program that's missbehaving.

Quote: "The result of this is that UAC is not secure on its default value. Microsoft has decided, despite many security tech blogs' strong warnings, against fixing it. They say it is by design.

This means that I can safely have my UAC in the off position without increasing my risk as any virus/malware/adware/etc. can easily disable it anyway. Why don't I set it to Always Notify, you ask. Because it's horrible. It constantly pops up in your face.

HOWEVER. Microsoft's official statement also says that it's not a security vulnerability, because Windows 7 is designed to prevent malicious software reaching the computer in the first place. That's what I rely on, and it has served me well for the past 6-8 years."


Huh, I didn't know that. So UAC doesn't protect you from anything but it's still in there to be annoying for the user . I personally have never had any issues with viruses on windows either except for when my friend was using my laptop and decided that he needed a hack for a game. It installed a program called "windows.exe" which added itself to the startup programs and opened a weird website ocationally when the mouse was clicked. The security isn't needed for people like us, but for people less experienced with computers, it's defenitivley needed. The problem with windows security is it's inconsistency, there is UAC but aparently it doesn't work, most .exe files from .zip files are fine, but not those and I won't tell you about them ect.

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
easter bunny
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MrValentine
AGK Backer
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Playing: FFVII
Posted: 28th Jul 2014 12:16 Edited at: 28th Jul 2014 12:22
Quote: "Maybe there should be a Work-In-Progress board for all kinds of stuff not made with TGC products. "


I think we need a General WIP thread, most of my current projects actually are related to DBPro and soon other TGC Products... I cannot even post about them here not complaining, just find I have heard two conflicting explanations and definitions about double posting...

But yeah time to find The Next and request a General WIP board ^^

EDIT

Looks like we can actually post NON-TGC products in Program Announcements and also MULTI-POST on projects in there...

Really need clarity on this as I would have posted my projects in there by now... in a single thread...

Clonkex
Forum Vice President
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Location: Northern Tablelands, NSW, Australia
Posted: 28th Jul 2014 16:24 Edited at: 29th Jul 2014 03:28
Quote: "I missed the day in school where they taught about forums."


Me too, it seems.

Quote: "Android has a whole diffirent set of dirs except for /dev and /mnt which arn't really directories but contain external devices."


Interesting, so it has changed a lot since its beginnings as Linux, then?

Quote: "A mounted harddrive becomes part of the same filesystem for example."


Which I think would be rather horrid and confusing. Depends what you're used to, I 'spose.

Quote: "On windows, you can install a program as long as you don't put anything in program files (I think, I havn't had UAC turned on since vista). The program can mess with any files it wants to, as long as it's not a protected file."


Close, but not quite. On Windows, a standard (non-admin) account cannot install programs without the admin password. Once installed, all programs require the admin token (type in the admin password or hit Yes to UAC) to have access to most parts of the computer. Otherwise, they can only access the Public user folders (which emulate the directory structure of a normal user account but do not belong to a specific user and are accessible from any account) and their own user folder (C:\Users\[NAME]\).

Quote: "The main reason I switched to linux was that windows often decided that I wasn't supposed to run that program, or I wasn't supposed to touch those files. "


Yes, that's one thing I find annoying about Windows, is when it won't let ME do something. I'm like, I OWN you, Windows, give me access already!! But it's normally down to Object Permissions in the Security tab of a folder or file. Shortly after installing Windows I normally end up setting all files in Programs Files (and (x86)) to Full Access for admin

Quote: "After looking for ages, I looked in properties and found something that said something like "this program is from an unknown source and has been blocked from writing to the disk""


How strange. That normally only occurs... OH I see. Ok, so when you download a file on Windows from an unknown source (I assume it means the file is not signed), Windows gives you a warning when you run it. There's also a checkbox that can be unchecked to not show the warning again. If, however, you look in Properties before running the program, you'll see a notice saying the program was blocked with an option to unblock it. What's happened is that somehow Windows has decided that the AppGameKit compiler is from an unknown source and blocked it, but because you don't run it directly, you don't get a notice or warning and it just doesn't work.

Or something.

Quote: "most programs that need root acess ask for it when you start them."


Same as Windows, usually.

Quote: "So it's only once per program or about 10 minutes"


Ah, timer makes sense.

Quote: "and it doesn't make your whole screen gray."


The "making your screen grey" thing is part of a well-designed security feature of Windows. When the UAC prompt comes up, Windows switches quickly to a different desktop called the Secure Desktop. This is the desktop used for logging in and changing users, and it allows only very specific code to run. This way, when the UAC prompt appears, you can guaranteed that it's real and has no other software running over the top of it. Additionally, the entire pipeline through to the Secure Desktop is completely secured, so nothing can sneak in and change it.

It should be made clear (by Windows, not me, I mean) that turning off "dim your screen" in the UAC settings doesn't just prevent your screen dimming, it actually disables an important part of the security of UAC. Why M$ thinks keeping its users in the dark is a good thing I'll never know...

Quote: "you had to manually end the process, not the program"


That's pretty common. I'm not sure why. I usually go straight to the Processes tab these days, it's just faster. I think End Task tries to end the program nicely first or some other rubbish.

Quote: "Huh, I didn't know that. So UAC doesn't protect you from anything but it's still in there to be annoying for the user "


Well I did clarify that it does actually afford some protection, but yeah it's mostly useless unless you turn it up to full

Quote: "he needed a hack for a game. It installed a program called "windows.exe""


The idiot. Doesn't he know you should only download hacks from trustworthy creeps?

Quote: "I think we need a General WIP thread
time to find The Next and request a General WIP board"


Absolutely! I've wanted a General WIP board for ages! But don't call it a thread, it's a board. It goes Forum > Board > Thread > Post.

Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 28th Jul 2014 16:59
Clonkex wrote: "My res is only 1360x768, and most developers these days assume a minimum of 1080p. I normally have heaps of trouble just trying to make enough space to actually draw in. Maybe when I get a new monitor I'll try it again."


Indeed, there are many programs that assume the end-user has at least a 1080p resolution monitor these days, and it's pretty annoying.

So I've read that a lot of people who have bought and used Cintiq HD tablets actually end up regretting them, because they're really expensive and are very tricky to use. Most people recommend just getting the Intuos Pro large, so I guess that's what I'll do!


Come check out my new website!
MrValentine
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Posted: 28th Jul 2014 17:13
Clonkex was tired when writing that haha

Clonkex
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Posted: 28th Jul 2014 17:13 Edited at: 28th Jul 2014 17:21
Quote: "Most people recommend just getting the Intuos Pro large, so I guess that's what I'll do!"


Wow, I really wish I had the money for that. My younger sister bought a Median branded drawing tablet from Aldi for ~$50 some time last year, and has since been creating some amazing drawings (she's a talented artist). It's great what you can get at Aldi sometimes I just wish I'd bought one as well

EDIT:

Quote: "Clonkex was tired when writing that haha"


When writing what?

EDIT2:

Waaaiiit a minute. You realise 1080p is bigger than 1360x768, right? The "1080" part is referring to height; the full size is 1920x1080, which is considerably larger than 1360x768.

Fallout3fan
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Posted: 28th Jul 2014 17:19 Edited at: 28th Jul 2014 17:20
I think there should be some way someone could constantly update on the forum. I know double posting can be a bad thing. Someone could just constantly post to say pizza and it would be annoying to see that at the top. But what about posting to notify about an upcoming feature that no one knew before the original post and there had to be a double post? I looked at the guy's double posts and it seems like it was reasonably timed. It was not after two seconds after a post, but a couple of days after a post. BiggAdd what if you had a new game feature you wanted to show but you had to double post about it? You could not post another thread about the game, because the original thread was still active.

Willing to be hired as a voice actor for work and to put on a resume.
Clonkex
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Posted: 28th Jul 2014 17:23 Edited at: 28th Jul 2014 17:25
Quote: "BiggAdd what if you had a new game feature you wanted to show but you had to double post about it? You could not post another thread about the game, because the original thread was still active."


That's what we're all thinking. We definitely need a General WIP board where we're allowed to double-post within reason, the same as the TGC WIP board(s).

EDIT: Argh....so tired, it's half past midnight and I really need my bed. Stupid postcomp keeping me up.... -_- ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz...........

Fallout3fan
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Posted: 28th Jul 2014 17:27
*Added rule, the double posting must be at least a day later. Otherwise edit the original post.

Willing to be hired as a voice actor for work and to put on a resume.
Dar13
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Posted: 28th Jul 2014 17:40
@Easter Bunny
Just because Android uses the Linux kernel, doesn't mean it uses the same filesystem. Google has heavily customized the kernel so it's very possible that the way that the filesystem is handled is heavily changed as well.

TheComet
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Location: I`m under ur bridge eating ur goatz.
Posted: 28th Jul 2014 17:50
Quote: "If they do the job and there's no open-source equivalent, what's it matter?"


Again, because it's not free. That's the issue. Closed-source isn't necessarily bad, there are cases where you are forced to use it, but it's largely counterproductive in that it doesn't perpetuate the collective knowledge of programming.

Quote: "Is that something people do? Normally I would just build the exe then run it."


Usually yes. In the case of the project not building an exe, only DLL's or static libs, what do you do? You can't run those, they're libraries. Other projects depend on them so if you can't install them to a standard location, the dependant projects won't be able to easily find them.

To name a few examples of projects that do this: boost, Ogre3D, bullet, FreeImage, OIS, zlib, zziplib, freetype...

Quote: "Yes, but only because they were not designed for Windows. That's what I keep saying. Projects are easy to build on Windows when the people making them take the time to set them up for Windows. The opposite also would apply. Projects set up on Windows would be a nightmare (or impossible) to build on Linux."


Ah, I was exclusively referring to cross platform code. Obviously, if the code is using a Windows exclusive library (such as MFC or so) it will not run on Linux.

An example is zziplib. It ships with VS project files but it's nearly impossible to automate the build process.

Quote: "Which I think would be rather horrid and confusing. Depends what you're used to, I 'spose."


On Windows, the list of drives when you go to "My Computer" can be compared to the /mnt folder. There's not that big a difference.

Quote: "Close, but not quite. On Windows, a standard (non-admin) account cannot install programs without the admin password."


Actually, I've had a different experience. If you change the manifest file of the exe to not require elevated privilages you can run the installer without Windows prompting the admin. You can then proceed to install the program to a non-standard location (such as in your home folder).

I know this because at work you don't have admin privileges by default and more often than not I required some software.

Randomness 128
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Posted: 28th Jul 2014 18:46
Quote: "Interesting, so it has changed a lot since it's beginnings as Linux, then?"


Quote: "Interesting, so it has changed a lot since it is beginnings as Linux, then?"


320x224
The Zoq2
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Location: Linköping, Sweden
Posted: 28th Jul 2014 18:54
Quote: "How strange. That normally only occurs... OH I see. Ok, so when you download a file on Windows from an unknown source (I assume it means the file is not signed), Windows gives you a warning when you run it. There's also a checkbox that can be unchecked to not show the warning again. If, however, you look in Properties before running the program, you'll see a notice saying the program was blocked with an option to unblock it. What's happened is that somehow Windows has decided that the AppGameKit compiler is from an unknown source and blocked it, but because you don't run it directly, you don't get a notice or warning and it just doesn't work."

That does make sense. The weird thing is that the other time it happned, it was for a game I kickstarted that wasn't allowed to save files and that was run directly. I guess windows might have just forgotten about giving the usual popup thing.

Quote: "
The "making your screen grey" thing is part of a well-designed security feature of Windows. When the UAC prompt comes up, Windows switches quickly to a different desktop called the Secure Desktop. This is the desktop used for logging in and changing users, and it allows only very specific code to run. This way, when the UAC prompt appears, you can guaranteed that it's real and has no other software running over the top of it. Additionally, the entire pipeline through to the Secure Desktop is completely secured, so nothing can sneak in and change it.

It should be made clear (by Windows, not me, I mean) that turning off "dim your screen" in the UAC settings doesn't just prevent your screen dimming, it actually disables an important part of the security of UAC. Why M$ thinks keeping its users in the dark is a good thing I'll never know..."


I defenitvley didn't know about that (and a lot of other things you said in your post )

And regarding the whole WIP in GC thing, I think the ocational WIP in GC should be allowed, aswell as doubleposting as long as it's not just to bump the thread. If you have something new to report about your project, that should be fine IMO. A general WIP thread would probably not get that many views but that's just speculation

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
BiggAdd
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 28th Jul 2014 20:55 Edited at: 28th Jul 2014 21:02
I'm all for making the WIP board a more generic, gaming WIP board, but that'll have to be run by TGC I think.

As it stands I just had to make the decision that its not fair on everyone else in GC who have threads that they don't double post in.

I can understand Pauli wanted to keep people up to date with the progress of his game, and I didn't issue any moderation on him as a user, I just had to put a stop to behavior (which if the mass majority of people adopted), would make the GC board very cluttered indeed.

Quote: "I missed the day in school where they taught about forums."


I don't really appreciate that sort of comment. If you don't agree with my actions then fine, but don't be childish/sarcastic about it.

I'm just doing, in my free time (which I have very little of these days), what is best for the forums and how we've run things for a while now. Does all this have to do with the moderation I issued against you all that time ago? It seems that every time I do something on this forum you're ready to jump down my throat about it.

I fully agree that there should be a place for Pauli to post his updates, I was going to suggest in the post I made after I locked his thread that he posted his stuff in WIP, but I was uncertain of the state of WIP allowing external applications in.

Just think of the bigger picture in terms of GC though. As soon as you let one person do it, then you have to let everyone do it, and it will I assure you become a complete mess and a nightmare to deal with.

Quote: "Again I'm really sorry and I know that I made a mistake now. I would be very happy if the thread gets unlocked again."


Its not a problem Pauli, I never issued you with any sort of moderation, its just a bit awkward because we don't have any place to put the thread that allows for updates at the moment (which are non TGC based).
I'll ask the other moderators what they think on the issue.

MrValentine
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Posted: 28th Jul 2014 21:06
Just to put this out there, BiggAdd I have nothing against what you did, as the current guidelines stand, you did what most would have to agree to...

I still think a board for Projects which benefit the Users here should exist, not sure where projects like Pauli's fit in though

In that regard I may have to disregard my ForumIcon project but my Prototype projects are wholly dedicated to the TGC Community for DBPro users, which I think should have a board to showcase it on as it is not created USING a TGC product... However saying that there are quite a few non-TGC related projects in Program Announcements already... so this confuses even me...

Regarding the smart remark, I agree it was rather silly and personally deserves a 5 minute + 55 Minutes ban...

Dark Java Dude 64
Community Leader
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Posted: 28th Jul 2014 22:26 Edited at: 28th Jul 2014 22:32
Quote: "I don't really appreciate that sort of comment. If you don't agree with my actions then fine, but don't be childish/sarcastic about it."
Ooooh wow, I actually truly didn't mean it to come across that way. It was supposed to be funny!!! My bad! I see now that it could have come across that way; I didn't realize that before I posted. Again I didn't mean for that to sound that way, it was supposed to be funny.

In my family, there is a common joke we have about 'people missing such and such day in school' when we don't know something we should have. That's where it came from.

Quote: "Does all this have to do with the moderation I issued against you all that time ago? It seems that every time I do something on this forum you're ready to jump down my throat about it."
Absolutely not, and again my bad that it came across that way. I tooootally am okay with the moderation that was dealt out to me in the past. Now I look back on those days, and whoa, I was childish. I do apologize if it feels that I want to jump down your throat every time you do something; I don't. I don't see issue with you.

Cheers!

EDIT Oh wow, I just saw another thing:

Quote: "Regarding the smart remark, I agree it was rather silly and personally deserves a 5 minute + 55 Minutes ban..."
I shall explain what I meant by what I said, and how it was supposed to be funny. In my mind, when I read BiggAdd saying "that's how forums are supposed to work", I thought, "Oooh yes, silly me, he has a good point." I was going to say something like, "Oooh right, silly me," (in a non sarcastic way), but I decided to take a more indirect and humorous route, and built upon the joke that I have in my own family.

Sadly, it didn't come across that way. Again, my apologies to you BiggAdd.

Flash is falling out of... Flashion.
BiggAdd
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Posted: 28th Jul 2014 22:36
Its alright, no hard feelings. If you didn't intend for it to come across that way then no harm done.

I posted a thread in the mods lounge about the WIP board so we'll see what they say!

Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 29th Jul 2014 00:03
Clonkex wrote: "My younger sister bought a Median branded drawing tablet from Aldi for ~$50 some time last year, and has since been creating some amazing drawings (she's a talented artist). It's great what you can get at Aldi sometimes"


My mom loves Aldi, it is quite insane what you can get (for great prices!).

I think right now I'm just going to stick with my old Bamboo tablet, I've found after using it a couple of days I can draw in the small space considerably well, it's just cramped.


Come check out my new website!
Fallout3fan
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Posted: 29th Jul 2014 01:50
Thanks BigAdd you are the best.

Willing to be hired as a voice actor for work and to put on a resume.
Randomness 128
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Posted: 29th Jul 2014 02:03
I think I need more sleep.[/b][b][/b][b][/b][b][/b][b][/b][b][/b][b][/b][b][/b][b][/b][b][/b][b][/b][b][/b][b][/b][b][/b][b][/b][b][/b][b][/b][b][/b][b][/b][b][/b][b][/b][b][/i][i]

320x224
Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 29th Jul 2014 03:15
As promised, here is my first animation test with Toon Boom Studio.



I have never animated before, as you can probably tell.


Come check out my new website!
Fallout3fan
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Posted: 29th Jul 2014 03:35
A lot better than me.

Willing to be hired as a voice actor for work and to put on a resume.
Clonkex
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Posted: 29th Jul 2014 03:41 Edited at: 29th Jul 2014 03:47
Quote: "it's largely counterproductive in that it doesn't perpetuate the collective knowledge of programming."


That's so weird. It's like you expect the internet to be an ideal world. Of course that would be good (i.e. if all mankind shared its knowledge freely), but when does that ever happen? It's like asking every company to share its trade secrets with the world just to better humanity....it sounds good but it's never going to happen.

Quote: "Usually yes. In the case of the project not building an exe, only DLL's or static libs, what do you do? You can't run those, they're libraries. Other projects depend on them so if you can't install them to a standard location, the dependant projects won't be able to easily find them."


Umm... normally if you needed another library to be used in your project, you would compile said library and either copy the new files by hand to the other project's folder or use a post-build step to do it automatically. In Windows you don't "install" a library so much as stick it somewhere and link it.

Quote: "Ah, I was exclusively referring to cross platform code. Obviously, if the code is using a Windows exclusive library (such as MFC or so) it will not run on Linux."


So was I. When I set "a project set up for Windows", I wasn't referring to the code side of things. I assumed that to be cross-platform. I just meant if the project files themselves were set up for Windows, imagine trying to compile it on Linux. That's what it's like for me (but the other way around) SO MANY TIMES.

Quote: "An example is zziplib. It ships with VS project files but it's nearly impossible to automate the build process."


Wow, we must have different expectations. I would expect to open the project file in VS (possibly after having created it with CMake) and hit compile. Then, if I had to change something, I would expect to do the same thing again (excluding the CMake step).

Quote: "On Windows, the list of drives when you go to "My Computer" can be compared to the /mnt folder. There's not that big a difference."


Oh, ok. I was just showing my lack of Linux knowledge there. I AM going to experiment with it soon.

Quote: "Actually, I've had a different experience. If you change the manifest file of the exe to not require elevated privilages you can run the installer without Windows prompting the admin. You can then proceed to install the program to a non-standard location (such as in your home folder)."


Ah yes of course. I missed an important bit there, about some installers not requiring admin privileges. But they cannot install things (AFAIK) and definitely nothing to Program Files/Program Files (x86) with admin.

@Randomness 128:

Thank you for noticing and reporting the clerical error. The rogue apostrophe has been detained for questioning, and a trial has been arranged for Thursday.

Quote: "As it stands I just had to make the decision that its not fair on everyone else in GC who have threads that they don't double post in."


Of course; that's just your job.

Quote: "I don't really appreciate that sort of comment. If you don't agree with my actions then fine, but don't be childish/sarcastic about it."


I don't believe that was meant to be sarcastic, I think it was just a tongue-in-cheek joke. That's how I read it.

@Yodaman Jer:

You realise there's a Quote button, right?

Quote: "I think I need more sleep."


We all do, mate, we all do...

Quote: "As promised, here is my first animation test with Toon Boom Studio."


Wow, that is very, very good!! You have excellent potential to become the next Simon's Cat!

Quote: "I have never animated before, as you can probably tell."


Not even slightly, it's very well done!

Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 29th Jul 2014 04:14
Clonkex wrote: "You realise there's a Quote button, right?"


Oh, I'm using the beta forums so it probably isn't showing up as a quote, is it?

Clonkex wrote: "Wow, that is very, very good!!"


Thanks! Only took me about 2 hours to do total, it was kind of an "as you go" experiment.

Now you've got me hooked on Simon's cat.


Come check out my new website!
Dar13
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Posted: 29th Jul 2014 05:52
Quote: "That's so weird. It's like you expect the internet to be an ideal world. Of course that would be good (i.e. if all mankind shared its knowledge freely), but when does that ever happen? It's like asking every company to share its trade secrets with the world just to better humanity....it sounds good but it's never going to happen."

If no one tries, then it will never happen. Effort counts for a lot, after all.

Quote: "Umm... normally if you needed another library to be used in your project, you would compile said library and either copy the new files by hand to the other project's folder or use a post-build step to do it automatically. In Windows you don't "install" a library so much as stick it somewhere and link it."

Which can be a righteous pain in the tush.

Clonkex
Forum Vice President
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Posted: 29th Jul 2014 08:43
Quote: "Oh, I'm using the beta forums so it probably isn't showing up as a quote, is it?"


Ah, ok. That's dumb. The Next should fix that. Maybe I'll report it.

Quote: "Now you've got me hooked on Simon's cat."


I love that channel

Quote: "If no one tries, then it will never happen. Effort counts for a lot, after all."


You have a point, but I feel like TheComet (you have no idea how many times I've typed TheComment accidentally and had to erase it ) is saying the world would be better if all software was open-source. I think that in reality the world would be worse off because paid software creates a viable income for millions of people. On the other hand I could be showing my ignorance by saying this...

The Zoq2
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Posted: 29th Jul 2014 11:13
Quote: "Umm... normally if you needed another library to be used in your project, you would compile said library and either copy the new files by hand to the other project's folder or use a post-build step to do it automatically. In Windows you don't "install" a library so much as stick it somewhere and link it."


But with linux you don't have to go through that step at all, all you need to do (usually) is compile and install (make install) the package once, or download it from the package manager. All projects that need the lib can find them and you save some space. Also, you don't have to compile anything statically because anyone using the program can just install the lib from the package manager anyway which makes downloads smaller.

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
Dar13
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Joined: 12th May 2008
Location: Microsoft VisualStudio 2010 Professional
Posted: 29th Jul 2014 13:27
Quote: "I think that in reality the world would be worse off because paid software creates a viable income for millions of people. On the other hand I could be showing my ignorance by saying this..."

Just because it's open-source doesn't mean it has to be free as in beer. A good example of this is the IntelliJ IDE by Jetbrains and the Red Hat Enterprise Linux distribution.

Clonkex
Forum Vice President
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Joined: 20th May 2010
Location: Northern Tablelands, NSW, Australia
Posted: 29th Jul 2014 15:03
Quote: "But with linux you don't have to go through that step at all, all you need to do (usually) is compile and install (make install) the package once, or download it from the package manager. All projects that need the lib can find them and you save some space. Also, you don't have to compile anything statically because anyone using the program can just install the lib from the package manager anyway which makes downloads smaller."


Ok point.

Quote: "Just because it's open-source doesn't mean it has to be free as in beer. A good example of this is the IntelliJ IDE by Jetbrains and the Red Hat Enterprise Linux distribution."


I see what you mean, but I won't comment further because I'm trying to once again escape the postcomp - spending far too much time writing massive posts. Gotta disappear again.

MrValentine
AGK Backer
15
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Joined: 5th Dec 2010
Playing: FFVII
Posted: 29th Jul 2014 16:17
So who is Pro-Vegetarian here? [Even if you still have the occasional meat]



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