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Geek Culture / The generation of computer game and program selling making you millions - over?

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ionstream
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 23:44
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Quote: "Last I checked, copyright law disallows copying, and transmission (digitally or mechanically) from one device to another. And that pretty much rules out MP3 players as legally OK."


That would be true if I didn't buy a license specifically for transferring to MP3 players.

Quote: "Wow, you got me, I'm posting a number."


Yeah because we all know it's just a number. You're such a freedom fighter for posting it.

Quote: "No, I'm criticizing you for saying that "Piracy can never be morally right" and then presenting a case where you do it yourself"


Fine then, piracy as far as blatant theft goes is never morally right. If you want to take a marker to a book because you don't like the ending, by all means.

Quote: "You whining about not receiving cash after you've graduated vs. You deciding that certain illegal activities are OK"


Yes. Stealing, causing damage to a company, etc., is wrong. The rest of it is an unimportant gray area.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 23:48 Edited at: 18th Jun 2008 23:50
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Quote: "So a one-time activation is enough to tip you over the edge and pirate a game. Ridiculous."

Yeah. Should I move to Egypt instead? Maybe that'll make it alright. You did imply the companies don't care about the market there. It would indeed be ridiculous if I pirated games because of one-time activation. Luckily, I don't. Now, if I wouldn't have internet, I might consider it.

Quote: "Piracy in all forms is theft. Unless you're stealing "Hitler's Big Score" from Nazi Co, there is no morally correct piracy.]"

Yes, it is theft. No, it is not theft. If I can't buy the game ánd use it even though I paid for it, I prefer not to pay for it. Who buys a car that doesn't work if they can get a car through common and available dubious methods that DOES work.

Is it really that odd that people refuse to pay for unusable or crippled software? I really disagree about the 'poor company' view, the people saying poor, poor them. I'm not paying anything for something I cannot use, or something that works in lesser ways than a 'free' dubious entity.

I honestly think people buying everything nowadays are a bit odd. Sorry, ionstream, but I can't imagine any person who doesn't pirate anything at any time. I buy what I like, and I buy things that work.

For the rest, that's an unimportant gray area for me.


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David R
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 23:52 Edited at: 19th Jun 2008 00:00
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Quote: "Fine then, piracy as far as blatant theft goes is never morally right. If you want to take a marker to a book because you don't like the ending, by all means."


You claim to know "right from wrong", but clearly you don't understand the law - the law is the law. There is no varying degree on how much a law is enforced versus another one. If something is illegal under the law, it is illegal, it's absolute no different from what you claim to be "morally OK".

Quote: "Yeah because we all know it's just a number. You're such a freedom fighter for posting it."


Can you point me to the copyright law that protects numbers?

EDIT: You understand that if you don't assert your rights, no-one else will do it for you, right? Censoring a number and claiming it breaks DMCA makes no sense what so ever, and hence I'm doing nothing wrong by posting the number.

You may be one of the "proud people" who is supposedly 100% legal, but you seem to be stupid enough to just ignore breaches of logic/your rights

"the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

Quote: "Sorry, ionstream, but I can't imagine any person who doesn't pirate anything at any time."


My point exactly - but it's ok for him to do it. If anyone else does, it's wrong, and could be cutting into the cash he gets post-graduation.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 00:08
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Quote: "Who buys a car that doesn't work"

Anyone who handed their cash over in exchange for an Alfa Romeo.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.


I fail at life. No, really.
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tha_rami
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 00:21
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Quote: "Anyone who handed their cash over in exchange for an Alfa Romeo. "

Exactly! You get my point .


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ionstream
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 00:54
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I understand that you seem annoyed that I came off high-and-mighty, blaring the righteousness horn. But yes, there are varying degrees of wrongness (not as far as the law goes), and I consider stealing to be pretty high up there. I may do things that are illegal, but that doesn't stop stealing from being wrong and damaging.

And yes, I would like to be able to survive on my own when college ends.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 01:04
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Quote: "So a one-time activation is enough to tip you over the edge and pirate a game. Ridiculous."


I never said me, I disagree with piracy, doesn't mean I can't see reasoning for it.

As you've stated, Steam has the ability to go offline, so the only obstacle it seems 1-time activation holds is the 'my gaming rig can't connected to the internet' situation (which is what I had before I bought a new one) which probably isn't argument enough against the whole thing and I don't consider internet activation ideal either, as it does/can still place restrictions on the consumer. At the moment it's the most successful method for developers to keep their product temporarily safe when released, but I'm sure they'll explore better methods that don't use the internet and to consider the internet isn't an ideal solution on the side of the customer.

I tend to stand by 'the customer is always right', not with the crap come-back "what if the customer said you're gay", but the customer's inconvenience is something to avoid.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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Jeku
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 01:30
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Quote: "Now, if I wouldn't have internet, I might consider it."


Hmmm so I live in Korea and they don't sell DS' legally in Korea (which they didn't until recently), I should be able to just pirate DS games and play them on an emulator on my PC? That is the same thing right? If Internet is unavailable in the jungle and you are a member of a tribe, you should be able to pirate a game that has a one-time Internet activation. Hmmm. Surely this goes for software like DBP that also has a one-time activation process? I see--- so because you don't have the means to play a game legally, then your *only* option is to illegally obtain it. Buying the game and cracking it is out of the question I suppose.

Quote: "Is it really that odd that people refuse to pay for unusable or crippled software?"


"Unusable".. "crippled". A little extreme? Crippleware is different than software protection. Look up the definition of crippleware.

When you buy a product like Mass Effect, you agree to the terms that's outlined in the EULA. If you don't agree with it, it doesn't give you the right to *STEAL* it. Do you not see what's wrong with that scenario? If you don't agree to buy an expensive cable TV package because the service provider has access to your viewing logs, it doesn't give you the right to illegally obtain the signal through underhanded ways. If you don't have the means to activate a piece of software, like Mass Effect, because you don't have the Internet and don't have any option, then you don't have the right to *steal* the product. Piracy is stealing, regardless of which way you look at it. Funny you support piracy to an extent on a forum full of game developers

@David R - Nice argument there. Mr. X can't say something is illegal because he also breaks the law doing other things. Hmmm. In some countries it's not illegal to copy MP3s (Canada, for example). Your argument is moot.


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tha_rami
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 02:19 Edited at: 19th Jun 2008 02:22
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Quote: "@David R - Nice argument there. Mr. X can't say something is illegal because he also breaks the law doing other things. Hmmm. In some countries it's not illegal to copy MP3s (Canada, for example). Your argument is moot."

In that case, your argument against my Egypt statement is moot as well: in Egypt, copying is not illegal.

Quote: "Hmmm so I live in Korea and they don't sell DS' legally in Korea (which they didn't until recently), I should be able to just pirate DS games and play them on an emulator on my PC?"

Yes.

Quote: "If Internet is unavailable in the jungle and you are a member of a tribe, you should be able to pirate a game that has a one-time Internet activation."

Yes.

Quote: "Hmmm. Surely this goes for software like DBP that also has a one-time activation process?"

Yup. If you do not have the means to use something legally (besides not having the money to buy it), but you can use it illegally, you're not hurting anyone at all, are you now? Of course, if you cán by any means still use it in a legal way, you should do so - there's no excuse for not doing so if you cán.

Quote: "
When you buy a product like Mass Effect, you agree to the terms that's outlined in the EULA. If you don't agree with it, it doesn't give you the right to *STEAL* it. Do you not see what's wrong with that scenario? If you don't agree to buy an expensive cable TV package because the service provider has access to your viewing logs, it doesn't give you the right to illegally obtain the signal through underhanded ways."

Nope, but if you cannot get the signal through the cable even if I paid for it, but I could get the copyrighted signal by using some obscure item, I still don't have the right to do it, but I would do it anyway if the alternative is no TV at all.

Quote: "Piracy is stealing, regardless of which way you look at it. Funny you support piracy to an extent on a forum full of game developers "

I do not support piracy because of the 'free' thing. I support people getting something they should be able to get, but can't because some idiot decided it was fun to exclude a third of the worlds' population including me. I support piracy to an extent, if buying the game does not allow you to actually play the game.

Personally, I'm an Open Source and legality freak. Everything on my PC is either open source or freeware. I have access to everything, so I do not pirate at all (besides 'extending demos', but sue me). But if the alternative to pirating would be not being able to play, I would pirate it.


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david w
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 02:28
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wow I just have to say that all my respect for "tha_rami" just went out the window. What kinda person on a game dev. forum thinks like that.

If I was a moderator, I would ban his ass. What a piece of work. Sorry "tha_rami" but I just cant agree with anything you say on this issue.
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ionstream
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 02:34 Edited at: 19th Jun 2008 02:35
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Quote: "if buying the game does not allow you to actually play the game."


Quote: "Buying the game and cracking it is out of the question I suppose."


That's about right. I mean its a hell of a lot better than just taking and running.

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Jeku
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 02:48
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Quote: "in Egypt, copying is not illegal."


Then your complaint itself is moot. Just pirate the game if it's legal and you have no moral qualms about it (which you obviously don't).

Quote: "Yes."


Well then we're at a deadlock. We're agreeing to disagree. I'll stop now then

Quote: "If I was a moderator, I would ban his ass."


Watch your language. Mods are not here to ban people based on their opinion of anything. Nobody is posting links to any pirated sites so it's all good.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 03:00
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Rami's entitled to his views on piracy, so I wouldn't persecute the guy for it. So good thing you're not a mod then.

It's a tricky discussion, but I'm sure the numbers for people who are restricted by the internet are unconcerning numbers for the developers and it'd be a hard time getting that 'convenience' across, I wonder how far the customer card will go, because I suppose the developers try to equal out the guide between what's good for them and what's good for the customer (hence I accept internet activation, but don't think it's the future or at least I would rather it not be) if that puts things at rest.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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tha_rami
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 03:44
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Quote: "Well then we're at a deadlock. We're agreeing to disagree. I'll stop now then "

I'll agree to agreeing to disagree. This one is an interesting topic, though.

I'm not sure who David W is, but I'm sorry my personal opinions on the balance between convenience, theft and security are reason for you to make me lose your respect.

Now, to set things straight: I agree with ionstorm and Jeku that in most cases, buying and then cracking would be the most honest thing to do. Sadly, many people do not find honesty any problem and honestly, I can see why they do.

Honesty and morals all the way for me though, and people that know me in person know that anything I cán acquire legally is legal. Heck, even my copies of Photoshop and Microsoft Office are legal, although Office is gathering dust because I like OpenOffice. Alas, that's a different story.

This whole thing started when someone concluded security measures taken against copying nowadays are draconian and matter of fact is that they are. Developers seem to fail to recognize that these measures are actually encouraging copying through the train of thought I displayed above and I doubt anyone could challenge the validity of the thoughts from the viewpoint of the end-user.

I must agree with Jeku that in the long run, everyone with a computer will be able to be connected to the internet. As soon as that is reality, all my objections against permanent server validation will be lifted. Until then, unless developers allow people without the internet to play the games, I will not have any objections against people without access the internet to pirate a game. Also, I have no objections against the Koreans that couldn't get a DS emulating one on their PC. What I do have objections against are the people that could use legal software to its full extent who pirate games, or people that pirate solely because they don't want to pay for their games. You see, it's the intention that matters to me.

For one-time activation, if developers allow computerized world-wide activation by phone like Microsoft does, I do not have any objections against that at all. Personally, I believe that one-time activation per copy is the way to go. So, Jeku, I guess that after all, we do agree at one point.


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Beast E Gargoyle
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 05:38 Edited at: 19th Jun 2008 05:42
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@Jerico2day-What I'm saying is the average Joe thinks it's alright to steal nowadays. Look at my cousin he had his uncle install a hard drive into his x-box and he would rent a game and copy the whole game onto the hard drive to keep as his own, he only payed $5 for a game which is alot cheaper than retail price. I also have heard of young teengers stealing a disc from wal-mart or mejers shopping center by getting the game out of the case swearing to the associate that worked there that they would pay for it up front because they had more shopping to do. When they left his sight they would go to hidden corner and take a small key chain knife and slice the side and take the game out of the case and steal the game. I think this is all wrong along with pirating of PC games.

I strongly agree that we need more supervision of kids and telling them what is right and wrong. Instead of a smack on the wrist and don't do that again.

If your saying same gender marriage is alright, that that goes against what I know as the truth/ believe. So I will leave that for another time to discuss.

Best,

Beastegargoyle

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 09:50
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Quote: "This whole thing started when someone concluded security measures taken against copying nowadays are draconian and matter of fact is that they are. Developers seem to fail to recognize that these measures are actually encouraging copying through the train of thought I displayed above and I doubt anyone could challenge the validity of the thoughts from the viewpoint of the end-user."


erm... and the alternative is?


Heroes Quest - 2008 PlayBasic Game Making Competition
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tha_rami
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 10:40
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Quote: "erm... and the alternative is?"

Heh, please, do tell me. This whole discussion has been had because of the fact that there is no alternative profitable to the developers. In my opinion, less absurd security measures would encourage buying a game - so games that don't lag due to CD/DVD-checks, no rootkits, no spyware, no disabling of DAEMON tools or Alcohol 120%, no permanent or weekly server validation. We should go back to the times in which we either punched in a key or had the game check for the validity directly at the first boot.


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Thraxas
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 11:08
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Quote: "so games that don't lag due to CD/DVD-checks"


I cannot think of a single recent PC game that lagged due to CD/DVD checks...All the ones I have played check the disc at start-up only and once the game is running you can happily remove the CD/DVD... Everything is placed on the hard drive these days so you don't need to have the DVD in the drive and why would it need to check while you are playing if it already checked at start up, it would make no sense...

If I was a big game company I would not make any games for the PC, I would stick to console development... While there is still pirating of console software it is never as easy to do as on a PC... I wouldn't waste my money on PC development...

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tha_rami
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 12:10
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If it isn't for the CD/DVD checks, I don't know what causes a lot of games to lag compared to their NO-CD versions, which do run at a stable and good framerate.


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Chenak
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 15:27
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Quote: "I cannot think of a single recent PC game that lagged due to CD/DVD checks..."


ALL of them with securom type protection. Everything with CD protection adds about 2mins to loading times, sometimes more. Neverwinter Nights 2 takes 5mins to load the game. This is before the game actually starts by the way so it is all copy protection rubbish.

It also doesn't work if: nero or alcohol is installed, if any daemon tools are running or installed and even sometimes wont work just because it is admin mode and requires to be run in user mode. Conclusion: Annoying to the point I can't be bothered to play PC games anymore. My wii and PS3 have taken over my gaming needs for now.
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Morcilla
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 17:01
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Quote: "My wii and PS3 have taken over my gaming needs for now."

That's a strong trend right now. Also the PC community has been splited with the windows vista mess, becoming weaker than before...so every day less and less games for PC are published.
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David R
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 19:05
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Quote: "@David R - Nice argument there. Mr. X can't say something is illegal because he also breaks the law doing other things."


No, Mr X can't claim that something illegal is evil / wrong if they practice something equally illegal.


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Jeku
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 20:10
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Quote: "I don't know what causes a lot of games to lag compared to their NO-CD versions, which do run at a stable and good framerate."


You do know that it checks on initial load and it doesn't continuously check as you play, right? A game that has a CD-check will not have a drop in framerate, as once the check is done, it's done.


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tha_rami
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 23:11
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Then Jeku, please, please reveal to me why Command & Conquer Generals does lag when legal and not when illegal? And Act of War? And so on, and so on. Chenak pretty much said it there.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 23:34
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I can confirm his claim on Act of War, it crawled until I lost the disc and had to No-CD.


I fail at life. No, really.
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ionstream
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 23:36
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Modification != Theft

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Jeku
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 23:57 Edited at: 20th Jun 2008 00:01
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Quote: "Then Jeku, please, please reveal to me why Command & Conquer Generals does lag when legal and not when illegal? And Act of War? And so on, and so on."


How should I know? I didn't work on any of those games. All I can tell you is the securerom CD checks happens when you start the game. They do not continuously check, slowing the game down. Other things could be related to the slowdown, and like I said I do not have any inside information about those products. I'm just stating the facts. It could definitely be something else that is slowing it down (such as actually streaming things off a CD as opposed to your hard drive).

EDIT:

Quote: "Chenak pretty much said it there."


Read his post again. He said it's when the game loads. I don't dispute that the initial load time is longer, *obviously*, as that's when the copy protection software kicks in. But during gameplay the copy protection doesn't continuously check, slowing down the framerate.

And 2-5 minutes extra is a tad extreme. I have purchased tons of games that have the check, as 99% of modern PC games employ this, and have *never* had more than a 1 minute initial load time. Hardly noticeable. There could be a million things that are causing slowdown.


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Keo C
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Posted: 20th Jun 2008 00:04
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ionstream:
Quote: "Modification != Theft"


ionstream:
Quote: "I don't give a crap if I install a patch on my MP3 player that make the lights blink, because unless Sandisk is actually selling a product that does the same thing, I took nothing from them."





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David R
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Posted: 20th Jun 2008 00:20
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Quote: "Modification != Theft"


But it's still illegal...


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Chenak
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Posted: 20th Jun 2008 00:49
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Quote: "And 2-5 minutes extra is a tad extreme. "


I've got quite a few programs running in the background it doesn't like which take a lot of effort to restart again if I turn them off, neverwinter nights 2 for me does take 5mins, I have to have a coffee break to start the game lol. Oblivion takes about 1 second but I think that uses a "nice" form of copy protection. Devil May Cry 3 takes 2 mins on my desktop.
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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 20th Jun 2008 01:10
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Lucky people... I run everything from an external drive on a usb 1.0 - 10 min load times! (15 for crysis)

Favorite Quote: Dramatized code? Code Drama!

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tha_rami
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Posted: 20th Jun 2008 03:08
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Modification = Illegal.
Theft = Illegal.

Thus Modification = Theft.

In any case, it's still amazing how legal buyers end up complaining and pirates are happy users.


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Jeku
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Posted: 20th Jun 2008 03:42
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Quote: "it's still amazing how legal buyers end up complaining and pirates are happy users."


Not really--- imagine a pirate complaining about getting something for free


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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 20th Jun 2008 04:17
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Killing = illegal
Milking a cow you do not own without permission = illegal

Milking a cow you do not own without permission = Killing?

Favorite Quote: Dramatized code? Code Drama!

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ionstream
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Posted: 20th Jun 2008 04:28
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Keo C: != means not equal.

Yeah seriously that logic totally doesn't work. I mean its like saying I can't be against murder!

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Xenocythe
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Posted: 20th Jun 2008 04:41
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Stealing a product that you do not own is illegal and unjustifiable.

Modifying an old product that you already bought so you can make it work may be illegal, but that's certainly justifiable. If you've spent your money on it, then I'm sure you want it to work. Else, it's just a waste of money.

3.11 We do not tolerate posts made for the purpose of putting down another forum member, group of members, religion, our company, our staff or any of our moderators, past or present.
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tha_rami
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Posted: 20th Jun 2008 17:38
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Sarcasm doesn't work on the internet.

In any case, illegal = illegal. I'm pretty sure the pirates can justify pirating all the better, but it's still illegal. That you wasted your money doesn't make it so that you can just modify the stuff against the user agreement, does it, now?

Lol.


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Xenocythe
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Posted: 20th Jun 2008 22:28
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If you bought a functional product, then you deserve a functional product.

I mean, unless the box said, "This game probably won't work!"

3.11 We do not tolerate posts made for the purpose of putting down another forum member, group of members, religion, our company, our staff or any of our moderators, past or present.
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tha_rami
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Posted: 21st Jun 2008 01:53
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Then return the game. You're not allowed to modify game files.

I love playing 'the other side'


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ionstream
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Posted: 21st Jun 2008 02:01
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Whatever makes you feel better about robbing companies.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 21st Jun 2008 02:09
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I hope you feel much better posting that, ionstream. Honestly, I think it must've been a relief for you. I feel good about myself and I'm not robbing anyone. Not only that, I'm voicing the opinion of hundreds of thousands if not millions of people around the world.

If copy protection prevents you from using a legal game even if you tried your best, you should be allowed to play it anyway, and you should not be forced to pay for it, if you ask me. You can't change my views, period.


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ionstream
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Posted: 21st Jun 2008 02:12
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You should not be allowed to play a game you never paid for. I don't understand how you can possibly believe otherwise. You are robbing the companies that would have otherwise received compensation for your entertainment.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 21st Jun 2008 02:19 Edited at: 21st Jun 2008 02:19
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If we're talking 'should': It should be able to play games I paid for on any computer that fits the minimum system requirements excluding the ones for the absurd copy protection wherever I am, wherever I live. It should be so that if I pay for my game, I have less to complain about than the pirate who downloads it. It should be so that if I buy a game, I can still boot up the game in twenty years, even if the company goes bankrupt.

I'd prefer to download a game I'd like to play, if I couldn't get the legal game in any way or buying the legal game wouldn't work at all. Just like you'd like to have your music on both your MP3 player and your CD/DVD.


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ionstream
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Posted: 21st Jun 2008 02:25
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Again, I bought licenses to put music I buy online onto my MP3 player :/ . Anyways all that stuff you said should happen, as in it'd be ideal. It's not the case now however, and just because it isn't doesn't give you the right to steal. Just buy the game and crack it. That is, of course, unless the whole reason you're pirating is because you're broke in the first place.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 21st Jun 2008 02:29
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I'm anything but broke, believe me, and usually I pay for the games I play. Actually, I paid for almost every single game I played (not counting those played at friends, in stores, ect. ect.)

If I cannot play a game even if I pay for it, I will not pay for it. I will play it, though. Simple.

Like it or not. I've had it with this discussion and before someone jumps in, that's not because of my bad conscience but because this thing is going in circles.


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ionstream
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Posted: 21st Jun 2008 02:38
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Fair enough.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 21st Jun 2008 03:10
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If it's any consolation, not all pirates are bad, I mean I wholeheartedly support the Pirates of Port Royale, if anybody wants to say anything against that, I've got Chuck Norris on speed dial and he'll explode your brain using the internets.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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Jeku
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Posted: 21st Jun 2008 03:28 Edited at: 21st Jun 2008 03:29
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Quote: "wherever I am, wherever I live"


That's where you're wrong. Companies have the right to not sell software in various countries. If Nintendo doesn't release the Wii in Egypt, you don't "have a right" to import it and expect everything to work exactly the same as, say, North America. I believe you should be able to import it if you want, but you can't turn around and pirate a game just because they release a product that requires you to go on the Internet to download (for example a Wii-ware game where your *only* option is to download the product).

I guess you'd have no issue pirating Wii-ware and Xbox Live Arcade games in areas where Internet is not available, eh? Just curious. Just to make things clear for those that don't know, XBLA and Wii-ware games do not require the Internet to play, but they require the Internet to attain (i.e. purchase) because you can't pick them up off the shelf.


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tha_rami
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Posted: 21st Jun 2008 04:53
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Actually, that's an interesting one. You got me thinking there. I think I'd be against that, but I've got no clue why I feel against that. Maybe because those games are actually distributed through the internet.

Let me sleep about that one.


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