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Geek Culture / PS3 vs XBox 360 (Elite)

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Chenak
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Posted: 1st Oct 2007 19:09 Edited at: 1st Oct 2007 19:10
I've been working in a game store for the past year now.. I have never heard of the xbox360 destroying disks. And we get TONNES of them in for repair. Its mostly just the 3 lights of death or the thing is starting to sound like its going to blow up. I've never ever seen or heard of a 360 eating disks.

As for customer service, a few departments in sony are much much worse than for microsoft (mainly their online gaming dept). But for the most part they are both around equal in the crap customer service. It depends who you get really, I think there is a 1/10 chance of getting good customer service through either sony or microsoft
Samoz83
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Posted: 1st Oct 2007 19:13 Edited at: 1st Oct 2007 19:14
Quote: "xbox360 destroying disks"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_problems
and by the looks of the European Commission looking into it it seems to be a big problem

www.firelightstudio.co.uk
Chenak
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Posted: 1st Oct 2007 19:21
We still haven't had one in, I guess none of our customers take care of their disks so they probably don't notice.
Deathead
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Posted: 1st Oct 2007 19:24
lol! Ubisoft Customer Service is way bad! I remember my dads Rainbow six Vegas Copy having lots of scratches on the disc when he bought it brand new as well in the wrapper. And they said pretty much that my dad put the disc on the floor and skidded around on it.

Krilik
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Posted: 1st Oct 2007 21:28 Edited at: 1st Oct 2007 21:30
Quote: "i mean poorly buit as in they didn't test it first (heat and disc problems). I have only called sony once and that was about the psp and they a lot better than microsoft"


What happened to your PSP?

Quote: "We still haven't had one in, I guess none of our customers take care of their disks so they probably don't notice. "


I think it happens when you stand the 360 vertically. Most people probably are already aware of what causes it and do things to prevent it.

I've also heard of the disc tray not opening sometimes. In order for it to open people have to hit the eject button multiple times.
Libervurto
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Posted: 1st Oct 2007 21:38
Well I've never had any problems at all with my PSOne or PS2. The PS2 still works (with a good whack ) but it is an old timer and will soon completely die on me
All of my friends had PS2s and I only heard of one fault with a laser and that was repaired and returned within a month.
I only know one person with an XBox 360 and he hasn't had any problems with it so far.

I agree that the 360 is too compact, and did you worry when you opened it to see how little packaging there was?

In programming, nothing exists
Krilik
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Posted: 1st Oct 2007 21:45
I think the PS2 laser problem is a complete myth. People accuse the laser as being faulty but its usually a build up of dust on the lenses. Which makes sense because people usually get a disc read error on only certain types of discs. If the laser was actually faulty nothing would work.
Libervurto
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Posted: 1st Oct 2007 21:50
Yeah you're right but it would void the warranty to clean it yourself.

In programming, nothing exists
Zombie 20
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Posted: 1st Oct 2007 21:57
*clears throat*

14 years ago my aunt and uncle bought me my NES..to this day it is still with me and still works just fine so tada .

Dr Manette
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Posted: 1st Oct 2007 22:07
Quote: "14 years ago my aunt and uncle bought me my NES..to this day it is still with me and still works just fine so tada"


And likewise, my SNES works like a charm. Of course, consoles are no longer a mere hunk of plastic and a mother board any more.

Samoz83
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Posted: 1st Oct 2007 23:08
Quote: "What happened to your PSP?"

Its was about returning it for dead pixels

Quote: "I think it happens when you stand the 360 vertically."

I had mine flat

www.firelightstudio.co.uk
Jeku
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Posted: 1st Oct 2007 23:28 Edited at: 1st Oct 2007 23:30
Yes, the 360 is incredibly poorly built. Mine has failed twice already. That is poor design and poor workmanship.

Quote: "14 years ago my aunt and uncle bought me my NES..to this day it is still with me and still works just fine so tada"


Well, there's no moving parts with those old cartridge systems

Zombie 20
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2007 05:40
Ah yes well that is another point there haha.

Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2007 18:02
yeah my master system still works woo!

In programming, nothing exists
SunnyKatt
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Posted: 4th Oct 2007 03:19 Edited at: 4th Oct 2007 03:23
Okay, back to my little review.
i call myself neutral. I love all the systems.
when i said ps3 was for super duper serious gamers, I MEANT that if your the guy who gets the most expensive one because you want too look sophistocated, that kind of super duper serious. x360 is hardcore.

And anyone prepared to share their opinions should also be prepared to be flamed.

as I was.

2d programmer for life
Libervurto
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Posted: 4th Oct 2007 17:20
yep people are going to argue about this kind of thing because, basically, people argue about anything that involves a lot of money
How lame would it be if there was only one console. It would suck

In programming, nothing exists
Zombie 20
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Posted: 4th Oct 2007 18:12
we could all argue about the games made for it then.

david w
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Posted: 5th Oct 2007 06:28
I have both systems and my ps3 just sits there.

1. I am wating for some good games to come out/if ever.

2. I am wating for the on-line to get up to microsofts unified level.

3. Xbox360 just plain has games that are more fun to play.

4. If a game is on both systems I get the xbox360 version because it has achievements and this gives me something to work for ...bragging rights... for the hard to get achievements.

5. It really basically comes down to 2 reasons why the xbox360 gets played and the ps3 does not.
a. on-line
b. friends

I dont have a wii. So I really cant give an opinion there.

BTW I play on a 1080P 42" tv. The xbox runs at 1080i and the ps3 at 1080p. I cant really tell any major visual differences and neither can any of my friends.

The xbox360 dashboard seems alot more user-friendly than the ps3's xcross system. The wallpaper is really neat, but the xbox360's themes and gamer pics really blows this away.

You can access your pc's media with both relativly easily, so neither one really wins in this area. Its basically the same things stream audio/video. No big deal really.

Ps3 does have a web-browser. But who cares really, and besides its not really that good. The ps3 is a very good system, and I will have to admit that while I am by no means "poor" I did have a hard time justifying the 600+ dollars for it. Sometimes I wonder if I wasted my money because it just sits there. All of my friends have xbox360's because they are cheaper and you get more bang for your buck.......

It has been argued though that over time you will pay more overall for the xbox360 vs the ps3 because of the pay-to-play online. But thats like telling someone with a credit card not get the new pair of jeans for $60 because it will cost $100 in the long run. You see the point?
Jeku
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Posted: 5th Oct 2007 10:40
I have all three systems, too. My PS3 is used 98% of the time to play PS2 games, 1% Blu-Ray movies, and 1% PS3 games. Sad, really.

Quote: "The xbox runs at 1080i"


By the way, the 360 DOES have 1080p support. I believe you need the HDMI cable and you're set.

Plystire
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Posted: 5th Oct 2007 10:52 Edited at: 5th Oct 2007 10:57
I don't have a PS3, or an XBox360, nor do i see any reason to get one right now. I'm not an FPS freak (like my friend who's GOING to get an XBox360 just to play Halo), and I don't care about racing games that don't involve blowing up the competitors. Nor do I see any reason to pay massive amounts of cash for a system that claims BlueRay is the way to go.

If I got a BlueRay drive, the first thing I'd do is go buy a laser pointer as well. Then, I take the laser out of the laser pointer, pry open the BlueRay drive, rip out that laser, and put it in the laser pointer. Then I'd put in some more powerful batteries, and go around burning things or pointing at stars in the sky, because really that's all I can see the BlueRay having over DVDs right now (aside from cost, they got DVDs beat hands down ).

Tilt-function of a controller... oh god, didn't they put that in like.... within a month before release? And I heard many times that it was just a chip hanging from a wire inside the remote. And they got rid of rumble to do it. My Wiimote has tilt-function, a pointer, rumble, AND a port for attaching accessories! Point is, the PS3 and XBox360 controllers are lame compared to the Wiimote.

XBox360... online... right! It's true that it is the only console boasting online play right now (worth using, at least). I wouldn't consider it to be a convincing feature when you are considering the long-run. All consoles are supposed to have online play (playable, online play) at some point or another. (For the Wii, it's supposed to be when Smash Bros. Brawl comes out this December)

Graphics... I've said this once, but I'll say it again. I'm a programmer, I care loads more about gameplay than I do about graphics. But for the sake of talking about it, I think the PS3 could have done with some more CPU power than GPU power, due to it's massive BlueRay discs, and the loading time is just awry. But for graphics it's a monster, indeed. As is the XBox360, simply stunning. But then we come to the Wii, where most people would say "Psh, the Wii doesn't have sh*t on the PS3 or XBox360 in terms of graphics", but you gotta wonder why they always have to add on that last part saying "in terms of graphics". Sure, it didn't get much of an upgrade in graphics, but it still did! It can also process things much better than the GameCube. I think the games on the Wii still look much better than the GC, just like all new consoles should.

But guess what! At the time of posting, the Wii is so close to passing the XBox360 in total sales, it's rediculous! It's also almost sold 3x that of the PS3! Guess what! I'm not the only one who thinks Microsoft and Sony are trying to get some easy cash!

What have the consoles been doing since they came out? Whenever a new one gets released... what's new? The graphics look so much better!!! WOOOOOOT, I think I just pi**ed myself over those graphics! Big whoop, we've been seeing better and better graphics for how long now? 5 generations of Nintendo Systems? 3 generations of Playstations? 2 Generations from Micros**t? But, of course, we have to pump up the graphics, that's what's expected!

Q) How about something new?

Microsoft's A) Let's make the console smaller, that last one was just rediculous in size. Oh and while we're at it, let's throw in ONLINE, just because we love you!

Retort) Yes, the size is an improvement, but don't try to be all manly about it, MS isn't a hardware company, and we know it! Try not to mess things up by cramming full-sized hardware into a tiny box. Online? The PS2 had that! Nothing new...

Sony's A) Hey! We just heard about... I mean, we just developed a new technology called BluRay! Yeah, it's totally the future, man! Can pack a lot more stuff into a single disc! Oh, and since Ninte... I mean, hey look, we got "motion-sensing" 6-axis tilt-control! Check that out! Oh, and did we mention we have COMPLETELY OFF THE CHART graphics this time?

Retort) Yeah, you didn't discover BluRay, so don't act like you're the only ones who have it. Yes it can put an a**load of info on one disc, but did you ever stop to think, that maybe you'd need a better system to READ it quickly? Guess not. Motion-sensing... go look it up in the dictionary, that's not motion-sensing, and the next time you try to do something like this, let's leave it in the test labs a little longer, mmk? What?! Where'd the rumble go!?

Nintendo's A) Well, we started by upping the graphics a little, naturally, we always do that. But we went in a different direction this time. We felt the controls were getting very old-fashioned, and thought that maybe pushing a button or moving a control stick to do everything was a thing of the past! So we made a controller that senses motion! Look how innovative it is! You move and the game responds! Oh, we also felt that for some games this controller wouldn't be the best thing to use, so we put a port on it so you can attach other types of controllers! We also wanted the console to have more use than just to play games on, so we've added a "Channel System" where you can select things like a weather channel or a news channel, or go on the internet, or download old games to play on the Wii!

Retort) Yes, the controller is cool, I like it. I could very easily say that the attachments for this controller are just a way to get money, but I can also say that it's a way to ensure future compatability with newer games that need newer controls. I guess it couldn't be more expensive than a single PS3, right? My arm got tired and it hurts, so right now I hate you, but at the same time I had fun and got a little work-out, so I'm not as mad as I could be. The graphics suck compared to the other systems, but I had fun, and in the end.... isn't that what I bought a video-game for? To have fun? If all I wanted was graphics, I could just go outside! The channels are worthless, but it was a thought, and at least it was real news and weather, and the internet channel crashed when I browsed YOUR SITE!!! Downloading old games... well, if you had the games I WANT available for download right now, it'd be cool, but you don't. It'd be nice to download the legendary games that currently sell for hundreds of dollars for $20.

PC's A) Who cares? You can upgrade me when you see fit, my software is always changing, you can make games for me without spending thousands of dollars for an SDK, and my graphical capabilities are vastly superior to any console now... innovative enough?

Retort) I hate you because you're absolutely right and because the guy who made your OS is a money wh**e, and yet... I need you to play the Orange Box in 5 days.


Let's face it, no console is ever going to live up the customisable PC. If you're smart, you can use your Wiimote on your PC instead of the mouse. The PC was USED to MAKE the game for those consoles!!!

The PC is just going to get new graphics cards, cpus, HDDs, RAM all before the next console comes out, and by the time the new consoles are made, the PC has once again become more powerful! The consoles had their time where no PC could run their games, but not anymore.


The one and only,
~PlystirE~

In Soviet Russia, road forks you!

Mom: I may not be the alpha and omega, but I can sure as hell be yours!
Jeku
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Posted: 5th Oct 2007 11:06
Quote: "And they got rid of rumble to do it"


I think that's a myth, as there was a lawsuit with Immersion who owns the patent on rumble tech. Sony is finally putting rumble back next year.

Quote: "the PS3 and XBox360 controllers are lame compared to the Wiimote."


I must disagree. I'm always feeling a bit... empty when I play Wii games. Like they're not real games. I can't shake the feeling--- and I absolutely feel so much more at home on my 360 controller. The PS3 controller is horrendous, but that's for another argument

And the Wii has many games that have online play already--- in fact two games I had a hand working on--- Madden 08 and NBA Live 08

Plystire
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Posted: 5th Oct 2007 11:29 Edited at: 5th Oct 2007 11:31
Jeku:

Yes, I heard about the lawsuit between Sony and Immersion as well. In fact, I read the article on my Wii. How ironic, lol.

I know what you mean by feeling at home with a "classic" style controller, but I don't share the feeling about the Wii games not feeling like real games. It's true, they aren't run of the mill type games, and that the way you control them is a little different. I don't see how you can say that the PS3 controller is "horrendous"... it looks and feels (to me) the exact same as a PS2 controller, lol. I was honestly mad when they got rid of the "boomerang" design they had going. But they ditched it because they couldn't fit everything (tilt and rumble) into it without making it bulky and unpleasant.

Perhaps you'd feel more at home when SSB:B comes out on the Wii. It won't be using the Wii-mote, it uses the Classic Controller, or if you so choose, a GC controller. I honestly, love playing Wii games because the way every game has a different style of playing it, it doesn't feel like I'm stuck using one system's controller. (Marble Mania, Wii Sports, and DBZ:BT2 come to mind, as well as many others)

I wasn't aware that the Wii had online play for those games... probably because I have a strong belief that if I wanted to play a sports game, then I'd go outside and play it, lol.


The one and only,
~PlystirE~

In Soviet Russia, road forks you!

Mom: I may not be the alpha and omega, but I can sure as hell be yours!
Jonny_S
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Posted: 5th Oct 2007 11:45
Quote: "I'm always feeling a bit... empty when I play Wii games. "

I feel like that, my wii is pretty much used when I have had too much to drink.
Quote: "And the Wii has many games that have online play already--- in fact two games I had a hand working on--- Madden 08 and NBA Live 08 "

So why not tiger woods 08!

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Plystire
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Posted: 5th Oct 2007 11:50
Quote: "So why not tiger woods 08!"


Because waiting for the other players to tee off would be boring... like REAL golf, lol. But at least in real golf you can shout at them and try to mess 'em up.

Heh, I think developers and players are more concentrated with online being for simultaneous play, rather than turn-based.


The one and only,
~PlystirE~

In Soviet Russia, road forks you!

Mom: I may not be the alpha and omega, but I can sure as hell be yours!
Jonny_S
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Posted: 5th Oct 2007 11:56
Quote: "ike REAL golf, lol. But at least in real golf you can shout at them and try to mess 'em up. "

You can do that on Tiger woods 08, its bloody funny to blow an airhorn when your opponent is about to make a crucial putt. I myself have learnt to block it out though making me unflappable!

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Plystire
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Posted: 5th Oct 2007 12:07
Hahaha, now that's funny.

Maybe I should bring an airhorn with me the next time I go golfing with my dad.


The one and only,
~PlystirE~

In Soviet Russia, road forks you!

Mom: I may not be the alpha and omega, but I can sure as hell be yours!
BiggAdd
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Posted: 5th Oct 2007 22:48 Edited at: 5th Oct 2007 22:52
Quote: "<gloat>If you get Madden 08 Wii you'll see my name in the credits </gloat>"


"Jeku Mcjekiejackjagon jeck"? If that is your real name.

I didn't know they credited tea boys.
Do you work for EA?(If so cool beans!... and what is it like?) or are you freelance?

Sig removed by BiggAdd because he is everywhere.
Jess T
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Posted: 6th Oct 2007 04:41


BiggAdd, you're out of the loop! Everyone here knows Jeku works for EA in Canada.

Jake Jenson is the name you're looking for (as long as I spelt it right)

I think he was responsible for the interface in one of them... But that's just what I can pick up from occasional posts.

Nintendo DS & Dominos :: DS Dominos
http://jt0.org
Libervurto
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Posted: 6th Oct 2007 04:58
Jeku: Menu Man!

In programming, nothing exists
Chris K
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Posted: 6th Oct 2007 11:42
Quote: "I think that's a myth, as there was a lawsuit with Immersion who owns the patent on rumble tech. Sony is finally putting rumble back next year."


They are not packing the DS3 (or planning to), it's being sold as an optional extra.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
5867Dude
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Posted: 6th Oct 2007 11:45 Edited at: 6th Oct 2007 11:46
Quote: "They are not packing the DS3 (or planning to), it's being sold as an optional extra."

Sony is all about making money isn't it!

Anyway there now releasing a 40GB PS3 for £300
Personnally I think that they should make a PS3 without Blu-Ray and a 20GB Hard Disc to make it a true competter to Xbox 360 Core Package!

Plystire
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Posted: 6th Oct 2007 12:46
I can't help but notice that there was only one tiny part of what I wrote that has been disagreed with. Coincidence? I think not!


The one and only,
~PlystirE~

In Soviet Russia, road forks you!

Mom: I may not be the alpha and omega, but I can sure as hell be yours!
Chris K
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Posted: 6th Oct 2007 15:14
God Sony have completely fallen to pieces this generation, this new 40GB PS3 doesn't even have the crap BC we have in Europe (and America now), it has zero.

Phil Harrison was being such an arrogant idiot at E3 a few years ago, taking the piss out of MS for having two SKUs and poor BC. That was really when people started hating Sony with a passion - "The next generation starts when we say it starts", I mean ffs what tossers.

Here's the quote from Phil:

Quote: "Backwards compatibility, as you know from PlayStation One and PlayStation 2, is a core value of what we believe we should offer. And access to the library of content people have created, bought for themselves, and accumulated over the years is necessary to create a format. PlayStation is a format meaning that it transcends many devices -- PSOne, PS2, and now PS3"


I can't find what he said about MS but I believe it was "I don't think you can call that backwards compatibility".

Pride comes before the fall eh.

Third place is actually looking likely now...

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Jeku
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Posted: 6th Oct 2007 20:53
Yes, this is exactly why I bought the 60GB PS3. You see, this is genius marketing for Sony. There are not a lot of good PS3 games yet, and Sony knows everyone is just playing PS2 games on their system. When they get rid of BC, they force everyone to buy up all the remaining BC systems, thus inflating their sales. I was duped, but meh.

Quote: "I think he was responsible for the interface in one of them... "


Yes, not the most glamorous programming job, but still programming! In a few months I'll be working on my next game which is (suprise, surprise) another American football game that's NOT Madden. Not too hard to guess that one

Hopefully by next May I'll be moved onto a different part of the company where I can get out of the Front End area. Don't get me wrong, Front End programming is cool, but it's not as cool as A.I. in my opinion

BiggAdd
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Posted: 6th Oct 2007 22:53
Quote: "BiggAdd, you're out of the loop"


I knew I fell out of something. A right! Not ass kissing, but EA have shipped out some pretty good titles this year in my opinion.

Sig removed by BiggAdd because he is everywhere.
Jeku
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Posted: 7th Oct 2007 00:50
Quote: "Not ass kissing, but EA have shipped out some pretty good titles this year in my opinion."


I think so too-- and from an unbiased perspective. EA is really trying to do more original IP, which is great--- Skate, Playground, Army of Two, MySims, etc.

Deathead
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Posted: 7th Oct 2007 04:12
MySims looks awesome! Army of two aswell nearly all the EA titles this year and next year kick ass!

-Go onto the forums its nice! Join now!
Krilik
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Posted: 7th Oct 2007 06:57
Quote: "God Sony have completely fallen to pieces this generation, this new 40GB PS3 doesn't even have the crap BC we have in Europe (and America now), it has zero."


No it doesn't. It still plays PSone games. The reason why the 40gb doesn't have BC is because they removed a chip the 80gb and European versions were still using from the PS2. That doesn't mean that the 40GB version won't have BC later on through complete software emulation from a firmware update.
Jeku
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Posted: 7th Oct 2007 21:06
Quote: "That doesn't mean that the 40GB version won't have BC later on through complete software emulation from a firmware update."


Actually, it does mean that if you listen to what Sony said about their reasons for removing the BC. They basically said that fans don't play PS2 games on their PS3s, and Sony would spend their time better working on PS3 games instead of BC. Riiiight. My 60GB PS3 has had perfect BC so far, with every game I've tried.

Honestly I believe it's a sales tactic to get people to buy up all the remaining 60 and 80GB PS3s. Then, when the fans cry too loudly in the future, they will make a 40GB SKU with the BC chip back in, with the the new rumble controller added. It will be Limited Edition in some way, so the fans feel an urge to buy it before it's sold out.

Deathead
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Posted: 7th Oct 2007 21:31
@Jeku: Doubt it they'll probably release the controller with rumble on its own and ask for loads of money e.g. £40.

-Go onto the forums its nice! Join now!
Chris K
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Posted: 7th Oct 2007 22:13
Quote: "My 60GB PS3 has had perfect BC so far, with every game I've tried."


Yeah, the 60GB ones have 100% BC I think because they have a PS2 inside them (both the CPU and GPU).

Quote: "That doesn't mean that the 40GB version won't have BC later on through complete software emulation from a firmware update."


I believe that's the Oxford English Dictionary definition of Wishful Thinking. Why would they devote so much time and effort to something that won't make them any significant money? Jeku's right, if they want to make a profit this generation, they need people to buy PS3 games, and lots of them.

I also think that they are going to slash the PS2 soon to try and compete with the Wii, and they want people to buy both. It's not a bad plan, really, a £45 slim line PS2 with a software lineup including Singstar for the girls and FIFA '08 for the boys (amongst countless other AAA 'hardcore' games) would be a great seller. With a few more key PS3 exclusives slipping to '08 it would probably be the only way Sony could make a profit this Christmas.

It's a toss up between not being able to afford to cut off the PS2 and not being able to afford to not cut off the PS2.

My guess is they hold off the cheap PS2 till after Christmas, get a decent sales spike for PS3, then drop the PS2 to keep it selling through 08 while people wait for the big guns to arrive for PS3.

I think they also have to hope that Nintendo's and MS's hardware sales spikes aren't to high either, their software sales with both be brilliant for sure.

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Krilik
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Posted: 7th Oct 2007 23:02
Quote: "Actually, it does mean that if you listen to what Sony said about their reasons for removing the BC. They basically said that fans don't play PS2 games on their PS3s, and Sony would spend their time better working on PS3 games instead of BC. Riiiight. My 60GB PS3 has had perfect BC so far, with every game I've tried. "


But have you seen the reception the 40GB has gotten? It doesn't really matter, people are still complaining about it. And if the 40GB SKU doesn't start selling I can already seen Sony trying to push complete software emualtion for it...
Zombie 20
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Posted: 8th Oct 2007 02:06
If sony did that with a controller, I think people would start spitting at the ground, a controller does not have to cost that much.

Libervurto
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Posted: 9th Oct 2007 00:16
of course Sony are all about making money!
They're a commercial company.
They are being a bit vulgar though with their bragging and the whole 40GB with no Back Compatibility (is that true? how come?), they are trying to screw people over to get they're money when they don't need to. I hate it when companies do that, they don't seem to realise that the customer is on their side and actually WANTS to buy their products!
Microsoft are hardly angels in that area either.

In programming, nothing exists
Zombie 20
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Posted: 9th Oct 2007 01:00
If it is true, its truly terrible, why would the dupe out a whole generation of ps2 games, my god thats an ass-backwards move on their part. Lets be honest, how many ps3 games will keep you captivated for more than an hour or so, ps2 has a lot of great titles with a lot of great memories to bring back, why are customers being denied this luxury when sony could be working on improving their games and then wowing us like they claim to be?

Krilik
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Posted: 9th Oct 2007 09:04
The PS2 is still available, no one is being denied anything...
Dan the man
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 16:33 Edited at: 20th Feb 2008 22:44
(Edit)

Roxas
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2008 17:30
I have never seen company that doesnt try to make money...


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Deathead
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 03:10
This thread still up? why isn't it locked.

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 4th Jan 2008 03:45 Edited at: 4th Jan 2008 03:58
edied post


didn't realize thread was so old.

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