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Geek Culture / playstation 4?

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Raven
19
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Joined: 23rd Mar 2005
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 04:23
Quote: "Now that just isn't true. Most of the people who have commented in this thread with negative points about the PS3 don't own one. The majority of 'gripes' have been wrong too. For example, most PS3 games are on DVD disks - WRONG, BluRay has lost the HD war - WRONG, you can't copy off your saved games - WRONG, DVD players can play HD-DVD disks - WRONG (only the hybrid disks which contain the movie in both formats can be played in standard DVD players), the new PS3 can't play PS1 games - WRONG, the PS1 emulator isn't available 'out of the box' - WRONG, HD-DVD hardware owns more of the market than BluRay hardware - WRONG, etc. etc. and more recently 'people just really aren't playing online much' - WRONG."


No, must of what has been mentioned so far about the failings of the console have been from me.
Not only do I own a PS3, but half of what I've said you've taken in; and somehow not understood what has actually been said.

I never said they use DVD for games, I said they don't use the extra space you get from BluRay with the exception of a few games; which quite frankly are extremely short making absolutely no sense to why the hell they're using that much space.

Lair is the only game I know of that actually uses the additional space available. The game itself is absolutely crap, and despite the impression of having "free roaming" there is far less actual gaming area to play in than Destroy All Humans. There is no reason for that game to be using more than 17GB of data (which btw is the max that DVD can use)

What's more is the bullcrap you posted back about Xbox 360 games being cut-down to fit on DVD because it doesn't have the basic 25GB space to fit it all that BluRay has. It's just 100% complete crap.

Mass Effect still have 40hrs (ish) of storyline gameplay with hundreds of hours of potencial gameplay. Over 100 different systems, 10 distinctly different alien races all with their own possible individual traits and appearance making up hundreds to thousands of unqiue characters throughout with the entire storyline of over 22000 lines of dialog entirely voice acted.

All on a single DVD. Yet you're claiming other developers have been limited by the space on DVD? It's crap complete sodding crap, if they've been limited by space perhaps they should think about working on desktop applications for Windows or MacOSX where bloated software is acceptable over the useability and features.

More to the point I'd love to hear you actually provide proof to your claim that games have had to be cut-back on the 360 due to disk space.

Quote: "DVD players can play HD-DVD disks - WRONG (only the hybrid disks which contain the movie in both formats can be played in standard DVD players)"


Maybe you should check the spec of HD-DVD, which is freely available on Wikipedia. HD-DVD is REQUIRED to support SD-DVD formats, which standard DVD players can play.
In-fact most of what HD-DVD specs make required, BluRay have as optional for the publisher.

Quite frankly those are the only ones I can be arsed to bother replying to cause you're just being stupid. Every damn thing said you'll twist to fit whatever you can actually answer; then you get the sodding answer full of as much BS as you're claiming others have.

You're blinding loyalty to the PS3 and anything PS3 related (like BluRay) is just plainly retarded. If you can't learn to read and understand english perhaps you should reconsider arguing about points.

Jeku
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Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 04:51
To put it bluntly, a game should NOT be more than 1 DVD in size. The size of the game in GBs is not equal to the length of the game play. This *should* be obvious to most but from what I'm reading it's not.

Textures, videos, models, music, etc. should be compressed smartly. The only reason I can think of needing a Blu-Ray is with HD-quality video, but even then I would rather play a game than watch an interactive movie.

Matt Rock
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Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 05:17
Quote: "To put it bluntly, a game should NOT be more than 1 DVD in size. The size of the game in GBs is not equal to the length of the game play. This *should* be obvious to most but from what I'm reading it's not."

I'd agree with linear games, but disagree with non-linear games. I love having tons and tons of play area... BF42, the GTA series, and several others are great examples of that. And from a technological standpoint, the one thing holding you back from making some monsterous planet-sized game world is not having enough space. I doubt blu-ray even has enough space for that, lol, but still, I think bigger is better when it comes to disc space in non-linear games.

tha_rami
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Location: Netherlands
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 05:54
Quote: "WRONG, BluRay has lost the HD war"

Not yet. Even now, a few days later, I got a new paper with the same message: the PS3 is catching up, Bluray is going down.


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Jeku
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Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 06:00
Quote: "I love having tons and tons of play area..."


I think you misunderstood my post. This is what I said:

Quote: "The size of the game in GBs is not equal to the length of the game play. This *should* be obvious to most but from what I'm reading it's not."


A game that is 4GB is not necessarily larger in gameplay size than a game that is 1GB. Understand? FF7 is dozens of hours long, and fits on a single CD-ROM. Heavenly Sword is 5-10 hours in length and is on a Blu-Ray disc.

tha_rami
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 06:10
Being on the subject of gamelength, am I the only one disturbed by the current trend of 6 hour games?


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Jeku
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 06:16
No, you're not the only one. However, I like it I play so many games--- pretty much all of the new ones that I want to try, and I don't have time to beat them all. Short ones like COD4 are a blessing for me. There's no way in 9 hells I will play through a 40-hour RPG

I'm in the minority, though. I like linear, scripted games, and not open world sandboxes.

tha_rami
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 06:27
I don't know, I like both of them as long as they are well-executed. Scripted ones do tend to be intenser.


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Krilik
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Location: Arizona, USA
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 07:12
Quote: "Um, no. Downloading files is free for everyone--- there is no cost associated with this."


So? They STILL recieve income from the service regardless if people only use the free service. They have extra money from it that Sony does not get.

Quote: "You're right--- it's been at least a year so far. Still waiting for it on the PS3 and Wii."


Why? You've already admitted to not using your PS3 for anything right now anyway, what's the difference? Just for the sake of having a feature you won't use?

Quote: "Nope, I merely wanted to know these awesome features Zappo was referring to. Now that I know, they really didn't impress me. Sorry to inform you that my PS3 is not the centre of my gaming attention"


Because you've compared them quantatatively to everything you already own. You act like the PS3 is meant to replace what you have. Its not. As a standalone product compared to other standalone products its features exceed the Wii impressivly and offer a pretty decent alternative to the 360, especially if you refuse to pay for a Gold subscription.

Quote: "No actually he isn't.
You've been able to background download while watching things on the 360 from release, what it didn't have though was the streaming option to watch what you're downloading.
There are a number of other background downloading options for when powered-down, in-game, etc.."


No. You had to watch the download queue until around June 2006. I don't know if the power-down option was there or not.

Quote: "Only Microsoft .TV and Online Gaming is covered by the Live Subscription. Everything else is available on the free account, although they claim that sending messages and such isn't possible on the Silver account this is only true when on the xbox.com website. "


Hence why I said, "majority". I know there is a free option, but Microsoft still gets more income from their network than Sony does. And always will.

Quote: "• If you disconnect, on PSN you have to manually find the game you were previously on; where-as Live will have it as a "temporary" friend in-game.
• The Headset is not game-dependant.
• You can move between servers with games (don't bark Home at me as given it was suppose to be released LAST month, it is surprisingly still in closed beta) with friends or just a temporary group.
• You can talk to people without interupting your game, as in send messages, send voice, send video (not streaming), request as friend, request they join you, etc. The whole social aspect is available without shutting down what you're doing. Oh, and also extends to your friends on Windows Live; either on Messenger or Games for Windows Live.
• Ping rated server listing, as quicker servers are listed first. Some PSN games this is a "login and hope for the best" nature.
• Guarenteed Players ONLINE, sorry but unless it's Warhawk... people just really aren't playing online much, and if they are they've passworded the server or tend to swear at you in Japanese because you can't understand their ridiculous ramblings, or get kicked from a server simply for sounding american being accused of being a team-killer before even sodding playing a single round!"


If you plan to play online all the time yes. And if you are paying for it yes. Those are problems. I don't see it like that. I see it as a free solution to when I actually do feel like playing online, which is rare. In that case, PSN is a better alternative to Live, even with the lack of features.

Quote: "And it takes over an hour to download a 1GB demo from the PSN, with the same wired connection I use to download them at twice the speed from XBLA."


Microsoft still gets money from their network. And Live is years ahead of PSN in terms of functionality. Honestly the only way I see it getting better is if Sony can throw money at it, like Microsoft can, or start making money from it, like Microsoft does. Which probably won't happen.

Quote: "Here's a question about the PSN, for anyone who knows. Since there's no central servers, as I understand the servers are all maintained by the individual developers, what's to stop them from turning off a game's servers when the next iteration of the game comes out? ie NHL 2K9 comes out and they shut off NHL 2K8 servers?"


Nothing. But I can still play Socom online. Which I don't really mind anyway, because if you were going to play older games chances are there aren't going to be anyone on anyway. And there are ways to use a connection to your PC and console to host LAN games over the internet. Used to do this in Timesplitters 2. I don't know how many newer games even have a LAN connection anymore though?
Aaron Miller
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Playing: osu!
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 07:17
Quote: "FF7 is dozens of hours long, and fits on a single CD-ROM."

Actually FF7 fits on 3 CD-ROMs. I even have the FF7 game sitting right by me to prove that. I'm not disregarding your argument though as I agree with you. Unless you're talking about some recreation I don't know about?


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
Aex.Uni forums
Raven
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Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 07:22
Quote: "A game that is 4GB is not necessarily larger in gameplay size than a game that is 1GB. Understand? FF7 is dozens of hours long, and fits on a single CD-ROM. Heavenly Sword is 5-10 hours in length and is on a Blu-Ray disc."


Well Final Fantasy 7 is actually 4 discs, and around 40hrs of adverage gameplay. Heavenly Sword, despite using a BluRay disc only actually uses about 12GB of it.

That said you can't really compare, because FF7 did a really good job with compression; the reason that takes up so much space is because of the sheer size of the background media.

Actually I think a really really good comparison between two games and how they can evolve to better utilise technology is Resident Evil 2. Let me explain why a bit.

Resident Evil 2 was released on the N64 and Playstation within a year of each other, graphically speaking both are almost identical. The only thing that the N64 version lacks is pre-rendered movies, they're done as in-game cut-scenes instead.

The N64 version uses 32MB, the Playstation version uses 520MB.
I'm not against the useage of extra space that is available, but when that extra space is given at the cost of the gamer simply because it's "new" (as is the case with BluRay) with no realistic reasoning then that is when my problem starts.

Look at the PC, because we install to hard disk and the prices of these keeps falling for larger space. It is only fairly recently that games have really started to make the move to DVD.

Several games are still available on both Multi-CD and DVD formats.
People certainly won't be making the move to HD-Formats on the PC for atleast another 5years if trends continue to make it worth while releasing games on such a format.

While you can argue that on the PC as we install to hard disk there is less worry about having to change disks, but personally I hate installing games. I wish they would change to disc-streaming like on console. Halo 2 shows a nice way of a compremise between utilising the Hard Disk for performance reasons, and running with almost no traditional installation.

Something I've never cared about is swapping discs for games, as I said previously is how sodding lazy do you have to have a problem getting up off the couch after several hours of gaming?

I think my biggest issue with this is hardware manufacturers as always giving in to the laziness of developers. Think about it like this the Playstation 3 is suppose to be truely "next-gen" power. Yet so far, we've not seen that.. Assassins Creed does a good job, but it still doesn't show any performance difference in either the 360, Playstation 3 or PC platforms.

All three cost overall roughly the same to purchase, maintain and get games for. None really stands out to having a purpose above the rest in a gaming sense.. i mean each have their foibles and at the end of the day generally comes down to what a gamer prefers to use or just brand loyalty (the latter being what Sony quite frankly depend upon more than anything else)

I dunno, really PC gaming had put me off for the past 6-7years because of developers just being lazy for the platform. As there is so much performance difference between top-end and bottom-end, there isn't much developed that'll happily run on the low-end.
I prefer using my low-end system consistantly over my high-end one because is both are run for 24hrs... my low-end one costs only 35p to run where-as my high-end one costs almost £1.20

I mean you add to this that many PC owners (not gamers, but owners in general) only ever use on-board or budget range cards that come with the machine. Then lazy programming means far far less people can run the games.. which to me seems retarded. To save a development headache you effective cut off over three quaters of your potencial 240million people.

It seems like insanity, and explains why the casual games market has seriously increased in size the last few years.

If you give developers more freedom, they will take it and still create the same content as others without putting in the effort to really optimise that for a given platform. The only solis that console owners have is eventually the market will demand better and there is no expansion going on that developers can utilise. So they have to finally develop more sensibly.

This becomes a big problem when one console is more powerful than another because they can still develop without really trying just to keep something on-par with the competition.

While the PS3 might be a good idea, the real problem that plagues it is.. Sony. The hardware is a good idea, a new larger format is a good idea, etc.. but Sony have developed the console in a way to replace the PC, which frankly it can't.

It isn't a media centre, it isn't a PC and it isn't a gaming console.. but it wants to be all three. This is one of it's biggest flaws, by focusing on everything at once it ends up not being able to do anything particularly well. There have been fundimental decisions made that have slowed game development, lots of empty promises about future content, etc..

While this sort of behaviour is good, while the hardware is in development; once it comes out it needs to be able to hit the ground running. The Playstation 3 SDK for example, they should've tested with their developers if it was needed; and had it available BEFORE release, not 3months afterwards.

I mean BluRay is built-in, yet memory card support isn't. You need a USB attachment (atleast for old PS1/PS2 cards). To me those seem more important. WiFi is built-in on every mode... NOW. The original 20GB though, it wasn't.
You can't change the HDD, like you could in the PS2. You can say "well until recently you couldn't with the 360", but technically you couldn't get a larger HDD.. and I'm talking about features the previous generation had that they've dropped.

Really dunno but, it's infuriating seeing a company slowly killing itself because of the games division. This is the first christmas I recall Sony advertising their stores, to purchase their products.. sure they've always shown off adverts with new products but the store themselves, saying if you can't get to the shops they have an online store and it's also the first year I recall them offering some seriously large savings on their stuff.

Sony Store here is often known for basically ripping you off.
This year their prices can compete with Comet, Argos and such!!

Jeku
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 08:08
Quote: "They have extra money from it that Sony does not get."


Well now you see some of the pluses and minuses of having a pay-as-you-go online service. You are too funny--- first the Sony fanboys are congratulating themselves for not having to pay to play online games, and wow, look at how much those 360ers pay (about $60 a year). On the other hand they have to sit for hours on end to download their demos and games. Centralized servers that are never shut off. Hell, Xbox 1 games from 2002 are still online on Live for those that still want to play.

Quote: "Why? You've already admitted to not using your PS3 for anything right now anyway, what's the difference? Just for the sake of having a feature you won't use?"


Did you read my post? I *am* using it. I'm trying to download some demos and videos from PSN, and watch Fawlty Towers with my wife at the same time. Are you arguing for the sake of it? More like trolling to be honest.

Quote: "Actually FF7 fits on 3 CD-ROMs. I even have the FF7 game sitting right by me to prove that. I'm not disregarding your argument though as I agree with you. Unless you're talking about some recreation I don't know about?"


Oops, you're right I'm just merely trying to name a large RPG. Okay, Chrono Trigger, which can fit on a single SNES cart.

tha_rami
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 08:37
The good old days... the times when games were hard, long and there was no saving during levels... aah...


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Zombie 20
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 09:22
contra...ahhh.....

Dr. Mannete- OMG It's Zombie's voice, it's so Suave!

Zappo
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 11:52 Edited at: 19th Nov 2007 12:01
Quote: "Here's a question about the PSN, for anyone who knows. Since there's no central servers, as I understand the servers are all maintained by the individual developers, what's to stop them from turning off a game's servers when the next iteration of the game comes out?"

There is nothing to stop them turning off the server for a particular game, although it would destroy their old/budget game market. I expect this is the same for the Live network though too unless they have an agreed minimum supported online period. Of course as games get older less and less people play them online so keeping the server software running on a shared server wouldn't take up much resources. Its probably just not worth turning it off for the flack they would get from old gamers.
Quote: "I never said they use DVD for games"

This is what you actually said, "The ONLY title I've seen use BluRay yet for actually holding game data is Lair. Although you can say "well all of the PS3 games are using BluRay", this just isn't true.". So you didn't actually mean that then? Okay.
Quote: "What's more is the bullcrap you posted back about Xbox 360 games being cut-down to fit on DVD because it doesn't have the basic 25GB space to fit it all that BluRay has. It's just 100% complete crap."

Getting a bit shirty now, aren't we? It isn't crap. Check out this link on the official Bizarre forum. The third post down is from 'Ben', a member of the Bizarre staff talking about PGR4 on the 360. They have since released a statement saying that they didn't cut down the contents - it was all done by design. Okay Bizarre - heard that one before
Also, in last months official PS3 magazine, Epic's VP Mark Rein said that Unreal Tournament 3 (even with compression) will probably have to lose some maps due to DVD space limitations on the 360. If they do then they will probably make them available to download as extras but it still proves the point that stuff will have to be cut down for DVD storage. Perhaps not many now but its a growing concern. Plus, having to download extras doesn't help those with 360 cores that don't have a hard disk.
Quote: "Maybe you should check the spec of HD-DVD, which is freely available on Wikipedia. HD-DVD is REQUIRED to support SD-DVD formats, which standard DVD players can play.
In-fact most of what HD-DVD specs make required, BluRay have as optional for the publisher."

Reread your own link there Raven. The specs say that HD-DVD players must be backward compatible and able to play DVD disks (which incidentally BluRay players have to do also), NOT the other way round. For a start off, the menu system on HD-DVD uses HDi (developed by Microsoft) which isn't the same as the more primitive navigation system on DVDs. The only HD-DVD disks which will play on a normal standard DVD player are the hybrid disks which contain a copy of the movie in both formats. There is even a section on that very page called 'DVD/HD DVD hybrid discs'. Read it.
The BluRay specs are pretty solid too. They do give the publisher a selection of codecs and two methods for doing the menu but all BluRay players must support them all so they aren't optional. They are all part of the spec.
Quote: "Quite frankly those are the only ones I can be arsed to bother replying to cause you're just being stupid."

That's rather offensive considering I have proved all of the facts I have given. I would actually say that your abuse warrants a newbie slap, but I think everyone knows what you are like. Perhaps you should actually research before you type rather than give abuse when people prove you are wrong. Funny that.


Chart data provided with kind permission from ELSPA
tha_rami
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 17:20
The PS3 camp politically avoided:

Quote: ""WRONG, BluRay has lost the HD war""

Not yet. Even now, a few days later, I got a new paper with the same message: the PS3 is catching up, Bluray is going down.


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Beast E Gargoyle
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 18:50
retro goodness streets of rage!

Winner my a longshot!
Krilik
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Posted: 20th Nov 2007 07:12
Quote: "Well now you see some of the pluses and minuses of having a pay-as-you-go online service. You are too funny--- first the Sony fanboys are congratulating themselves for not having to pay to play online games, and wow, look at how much those 360ers pay (about $60 a year). On the other hand they have to sit for hours on end to download their demos and games. Centralized servers that are never shut off. Hell, Xbox 1 games from 2002 are still online on Live for those that still want to play."


What? Where are the PS3 fanboys complaining about having to sit for "hours on end"? There was no contradiction in what I'm talking about. YOU are expecting the service to compare to Live NOT me. I'm stating a FACT of said circumstance. And further down my post I've already explained my POSITIVE position about PSN. Should I clap for the Xbox owners? Because I've already stated that I can play Socom on the PS2 online too right now... Its a 2002 game. And I don't have to pay for anything.

Quote: "Did you read my post? I *am* using it. I'm trying to download some demos and videos from PSN, and watch Fawlty Towers with my wife at the same time. Are you arguing for the sake of it? More like trolling to be honest."


Maybe, just maybe, your argument is kind of ridiculous coming from someone who just said all their other hardware can already do what the PS3 does? Seriously, when someone comes to me that I know doesn't own other hardware that can play a DVD and complains about your point, I'll care. What you said, was only said, for the sake of arguing. You can easily put your DVD in your 360 while your PS3 downloads stuff, its not a problem.
Jeku
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Posted: 20th Nov 2007 09:34
Actually you completely misread my post. I didn't say the PS3 users were complaining. It's no use bringing anything up with you in this discussion as you're one of those "I am never wrong" kinds of pseudo-debaters. It's all cool, if that suits you then that's great. Have fun with your PS3 and the tons of great games

tha_rami
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Posted: 20th Nov 2007 13:09
I think they call that a sophist.


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Beast E Gargoyle
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Posted: 20th Nov 2007 19:35
I want a ps3 for christmas! Is there a good site where i can get a great deal on it say around $300?

Streets of Rage the best 3d beat em up ever check out the wip on apollo forums!
Kentaree
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Posted: 20th Nov 2007 20:04
Think the cheapest around here is 400 euro, which would mean it's closer to 500dollar (prices are high in Ireland). That said, I haven't been actively checking prices, but I doubt you'll get one for $300

Krilik
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Posted: 20th Nov 2007 21:17
Quote: "Actually you completely misread my post. I didn't say the PS3 users were complaining. It's no use bringing anything up with you in this discussion as you're one of those "I am never wrong" kinds of pseudo-debaters. It's all cool, if that suits you then that's great. Have fun with your PS3 and the tons of great games "


Right...

Quote: "On the other hand they have to sit for hours on end to download their demos and games."


I guess this was your attempt to merely state something thats going on, and not a point for your "argument" to make it look like PS3 users care about it. Whatever.
tha_rami
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Posted: 20th Nov 2007 21:22
Quote: "I guess this was your attempt to merely state something thats going on, and not a point for your "argument" to make it look like PS3 users care about it."

Actually, that's perfectly possible. He doesn't in any way state that PS3 users care about it, he says they have to sit for hours.

Although I'd care about it.


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Krilik
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Posted: 20th Nov 2007 21:31
Not when it goes hand in hand with this statement

Quote: "Well now you see some of the pluses and minuses of having a pay-as-you-go online service. You are too funny--- first the Sony fanboys are congratulating themselves for not having to pay to play online games"


There is an implication there that PS3 users are unsatisfied with what they have. As if they stopped congratulating themselves for not having to pay to play, because of his realization.
Jeku
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Posted: 20th Nov 2007 21:46
^^ And that is how the brain works for someone who can't help but spin an opinion of someone else's because it doesn't match their own. See how many times I've been accused of implying something.

There is absolutely no point in arguing with someone (me) who is basing everything on user experience. Every practical observation I have made about the PS3, 360, and Wii comes from my own experience, using and developing for, and nothing more. Other times I ask about something if I'm not familiar. Therefore, there is absolutely no point in the accusations--- in fact there are certain people from this forum that I can safely say can't be objective about Sony, you included.

Like I said, enjoy your PS3 with its awesome library of games

Krilik
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Posted: 20th Nov 2007 22:18
No that's how plain english works. Maybe you should refrain from using idioms you don't understand if its going to twist what ever you're thinking. Saying one thing, and then saying "on the other hand" IMPLIES there is a disgreement between the two things. This case being the circumstance of the PSN, and the subject being PS3 users. FROM YOUR POST.



English 101

on the other hand, from another side or aspect; conversely

"I like the taste of cake".

"Cake makes me sick."

"I like the taste of cake, on the other hand cake makes me sick."

"PS3 users are happy about free pay to play."

"PS3 users have to sit for hours on end to download content."

"PS3 users are happy about free pay to play, on the other hand PS3 users have to sit for hours on end to download content."

There, a lesson for free.
Chris K
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Posted: 20th Nov 2007 22:45
Well, yeah, but even if they are happy with the service they still might not like the fact that it is slow...

As in, people like cake but they don't like getting fat.

It doesn't stop them liking cake or the PS3...

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Krilik
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Posted: 20th Nov 2007 23:03
Sure, but no one here that is a "PS3 fanboy" has commented on not liking the fact that is slow, and also liking it being free. Which is why I asked where they are. As in, he made that comment out of his "experience" of what was happening, and not for any other purpose. Giving him the benefit of the doubt that it is indeed something worth noting. But so far its not.
R2D2s Jilted Lover
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 09:00
I get so irritated when people come into the shop (can't say which) and ask for 60GB PS3's. I tell them no cause sony don't make em anymore and they walk out! "No, no it's got to be a 60gb! I want 60GB's! I want to spend £350 on a console so I can play a few of my old ps2 games on! I want four USB slots! I want it to change my car tyres...."

I don't understand how people can be so misinformed about PS3. I don't hate it as such, I think its biggest flaw is how difficult it is to make games using blu-ray tech and this puts developers off. Quite simply there's not enough games on it. And the frame rate makes me cringe.
Zappo
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 12:00
I don't mind waiting for the downloads if its something worth waiting for . I just stick in a game, browse the Web or check my email on the PS3 while I am waiting. When it comes to trailers and special feature videos (like 'making of' type videos) I was starting to get a little annoyed at some of them because I didn't realise they were the same as the adverts on TV, but that's fixed now with the ability to view whatever has been downloaded so far so you can cancel it if its not what you expect.
To be honest, it only seems to be the popular items which are slower than normal. Downloading wallpapers and stuff from the Playstation Store come down at very fast speeds indeed for me. Same as if I was downloading them on my PC.
Quote: "I don't understand how people can be so misinformed about PS3."

Me too, but its partly to do with some of the content of threads like this one perpetuating false information and myths. Of course, when I try to correct these errors I get a torrent of abuse. Go figure.
Quote: "I don't hate it as such, I think its biggest flaw is how difficult it is to make games using blu-ray tech and this puts developers off. Quite simply there's not enough games on it. And the frame rate makes me cringe."

Well, its not difficult to use the BluRay technology but writing for the PS3 processor was previously said to be hard. This is changing though as people realise it isn't harder to work with, just different to what they are used to. A continually updated library from Sony is helping too. Epic have said this themselves after developing Unreal Tournament 3 for the PS3. Once they got their heads round the new technology, they have said it wasn't harder to write for after all.
I agree that it needs more games (although I am sure owners of any console will say the same) but they are coming... slower than we would like, but they are coming.
Not sure what you mean about the framerate. I haven't noticed any slow down or stuttering myself. I know the prereleased preview version of Heavenly Sword had a problem with stuttering but that was fixed for the final retail version. Considering their engine can cope with battling 2000 enemies at once, its pretty impressive.


Chart data provided with kind permission from ELSPA
Kentaree
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 12:33
Zappo, about performance, I think it was the issue that some XBox360 games had higher framerates than the same PS3 games, although personally I don't put that down to the console, but to shoddy porting.

Zappo
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 12:39 Edited at: 21st Nov 2007 12:41
Oh, right. In which case I agree with you Kentaree.

To be honest, does anyone notice stuttering or flickering when watching a television program? Thats only being displayed at between 25 and 30 fps (depending upon your transmission format). As long as games are at least as quick as that I personally don't think there is a problem. I would rather have more detail at 30fps than less detail at 60fps.


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Raven
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 13:39
Quote: "To be honest, does anyone notice stuttering or flickering when watching a television program? Thats only being displayed at between 25 and 30 fps (depending upon your transmission format). As long as games are at least as quick as that I personally don't think there is a problem. I would rather have more detail at 30fps than less detail at 60fps."


Actually your wrong, well sort of.
While it is true that SD programs are displayed at 25/30fps, the data is physically stored as 60fps in alternate frames; that are displayed within the same second.

So frame 1, is only displayed on the odd scanlines then frame 2 is only displayed on the even scanlines.

In this a single frame of SD television ends up a blend of the two which you're brain then peices together as a single image as if it were in constant motion.

You end up with the effect of 50/60fps when the television is
actually only physically rendering 25/30fps.

HD Televisions are capable of rendering in either Progressive, which basically renders the entire screen as a monitor would but it does this at 60fps (PAL-60 or NTSC). With interlaced it still does the traditional scanline technique of odd/even alternate rendering however it does this at the higher frequencies to reach the 60fps and as such creates the lerp blending between frames itself.

This provides the illusion of 120fps, which is why you loose some quality due to the natural aliasing of this technique the program itself has a very life-like feel due to it actually providing you with more frames than your brain can physically translate and as such it does the same thing it does with traditional television.

Going back between physical 60fps and the old SD faux 60fps you certainly do notice a difference. HD Television is often more detailed, better colour depth allowing your eyes to see more physical depth giving a more realistic overall image and also just looks much more natural and smooth to watch.

While no you don't get stuttering from recorded programs (unless your watching DVD and your machine is crap quality) this is because the data is constant. This is another aspect that allows for your to percieve it more realistically.

When dealing with consoles however, while on SD Televisions the difference between 30 and 60fps isn't very great; on HD or standard monitors it is extremely noticeable. That is perceptually however, what is possibly a bigger issue with low fps games is that more often than not control systems are tied directly to the frame-rate. So the higher the framerate (which btw while people shoot for 60fps, HD and SD televisions are both often capable of 75Hz often even 125Hz as their max input) often means a game will feel more responsive and not distanct to control.

A very good example of this is playing Rainbow Six Vegas on the 360 and PS3, as they run at 60fps and 30fps respectively. Why is probably down to poor porting on Ubisofts part but then again they've never exactly been great at it; however on the 360 the game feels very responsive and you can get on with the job at hand quite effectively.

On the Playstation 3 however (which is what I have it for) there are times when the game will not only feel like it's taking a few hundreths of a second to think about what I've just told it to do, sometimes it will just jump frames removing the nice fluid realism of the game.

That isn't an issue with the PS3 itself, but the developers piss-poor programming; however more and more titles for the PS3 seem to feel that 30fps is alright, which is true for say something turn-based or RTS... but full-on action games like FPS, Action-Adventure or Racing. It's completely unacceptable.

If you don't want to take my word for this, which no doubt you'll argue blue murder that I'm wrong about this. Do a check for the Quakecon RAGE video where John Carmack (yes 3D gaming grandpappy, and all round programming god) actually explains why 30fps is not a target developers should be aiming for.

That's what their RAGE engine was getting and he was very unhappy about it, yeah it looks pretty but he explains why slow rendering for the sake of pretty graphics is just not on.
For a guy who's basically made a bloody fortune out of purely making pretty games that push the envelope it's a pretty big statement that even he conceeded that graphics just ain't worth slow framerates.

tha_rami
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 14:46
Okay, you know, I'm siding with Jeku this time. I suddenly switched towards where I think PS3 fanboys act victimized. I don't know, but Zappo's last post just breathed 'oh dear, they bully me *cries*'.

I've always been unbiased in any console war thread, although, like everyone, I try to explain what I know about the consoles.

The Bluray topic is suddenly well-avoided and we all know that is because of the news that Bluray is indeed not doing as well as hoped, and that HD DVD is catching up.

Bah. Okay, people are a bit rash against the PS3, and it appears this is mainly an XBOX forum, but crap dude, if you've so 'had enough' then please just stop instead of going on and whining. Jeez.

[/end rant]


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Zappo
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 16:01 Edited at: 21st Nov 2007 16:03
Quote: "While it is true that SD programs are displayed at 25/30fps, the data is physically stored as 60fps in alternate frames; that are displayed within the same second."

Yes, interlacing is a funny old thing. Even though it is 50Hz/60Hz (50/60 'fields' per second) like you say, its still really only 25/30 'frames' per second because each is only half a complete frame. Especially as LCD and Plasma TVs can't do interlacing (no CRT means no raster scan) so I understand that have to convert it to a progressive display anyway (or interpolate).
If a game can manage more than 50/60fps on a TV then thats great, but I won't complain if it only stuff out 25/30fps.
Quote: "I don't know, but Zappo's last post just breathed 'oh dear, they bully me *cries*'."

Did you read Raven's post? I won't dwell on it now as he has obviously calmed down but when I post factual researched corrections (with proof) to some of his points and I get phrases like "the bullcrap you posted", "just 100% complete crap", "crap complete sodding crap", "you're just being stupid", "full of as much BS", "just plainly retarded" and "If you can't learn to read and understand english...", I think I am entitled to be a little miffed, even though I kept it professional and decided not to retaliate childishly. Perhaps he was just having a bad day, which we all do from time to time. I certainly didn't play the victim so I don't know where you're getting that from
Quote: "if you've so 'had enough' then please just stop instead of going on and whining."

Was that still directed at me? Haaa! I think you may have dreamed up some of those posts because I don't remember saying I had 'had enough', or whining. I am just trying to correct some misinformation which you Xbox fanboys seem to want to cling to


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tha_rami
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 17:09
Quote: "Was that still directed at me? Haaa! I think you may have dreamed up some of those posts because I don't remember saying I had 'had enough', or whining. I am just trying to correct some misinformation which you Xbox fanboys seem to want to cling to"


I must be a master at manipulation, because your reaction is exactly what I mean.


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Raven
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 17:23
Quote: "I think I am entitled to be a little miffed, even though I kept it professional and decided not to retaliate childishly. Perhaps he was just having a bad day, which we all do from time to time. I certainly didn't play the victim so I don't know where you're getting that from."


Victim or not, if you think I posted that response above because I felt like having some meaningful debat with you and was being rarely pleasent then you're obviously living deeper into cloud cuokoo-land than I previous believed.

And if you ever think I'm having a bad day, perhaps it might be because everytime I read the responses you leave I feel my IQ is lower for doing so.

I mean jesus not only did you twist most of the responses from people to fit your own facts about things (which both yourself and kilik ended up contradicting yourselves on) but just the fact that you responsed to the last post almost completely ignoring the point and obviously having little to no knowledge on how digital-to-digital and digital-to-analog works but then trying to be all bloody "thoughtful" about it.

Just to reiterate your own point that you feel that 25/30fps is good enough for games.

Tell you what when I get home, I'll make something in DBP to show you the point I mean. Maybe you'll actually bother paying attention then to the point because you obviously didnt' bother watching the video I commented about.

I wouldn't be getting so damn frustrated if you were someone which english wasn't their primary language; but you're quite obviously understanding or atleast taking in what is said in order to twist the sodding thing. Atleast when women sodding doing it, there is some sorta prize for letting them win that I'll enjoy... you however gah it's like trying to explain Quantum Theory to a 5year old.

Just don't think anything is actually gonna ever sink in.

Zappo
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 18:10
I see.
statement = whine ???


Oh no, is this post classed as another whine? How do I tell? Perhaps if I disagree with your views on high def technology, then it becomes a whine?


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Zombie 20
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 20:11
Quote: "Xbox fanboys "


*clears throat*

Xbox, Sony, Nintendo FAN, not fanboy, if you're gonna bitch about miniscule items then so am I.

Dr. Mannete- OMG It's Zombie's voice, it's so Suave!

ionstream
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 21:06
Raven, try not to be a dick for one moment. Zappo said nothing technically wrong in his response, and as far as "playing the victim" goes, you all are grasping at straws.

Quote: "... obviously having little to no knowledge on how digital-to-digital and digital-to-analog works... Just don't think anything is actually gonna ever sink in."


Stop trying to make yourself seem smart, it's really not working. Save your explanation of interlacing, Wikipedia does a better job. Not that anyone asked for it anyways.

That's not as bad as you think you said.
Jeku
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 21:10
Quote: "Not sure what you mean about the framerate. I haven't noticed any slow down or stuttering myself."


Have you played Lair, yet? It's like a 5fps slideshow during a lot of the gameplay. Ugh.

Krilik
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 22:47
Quote: "which both yourself and kilik ended up contradicting yourselves on"


Here we go again. My name is spelled KRilik. And no I didn't.
Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 23:16
Quote: "I want a ps3 for christmas! Is there a good site where i can get a great deal on it say around $300?"


Not sure about best site to get them from, but I have seen them in Pawn shops (basically where I buy all my games) for under $300. best retail offer I saw so far was the Circut city one I mentioned

Libervurto
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 23:35
Don't you know they hike the prices up at christmas?
hold out till the new year and they'll be cheaper

"You must be someone's friend to make comments about them." - MySpace lied.
tha_rami
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 01:16 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2007 01:19
Jeez. I've not gotten angry in a long, long while on the internet, and I'll avoid posting a massive rant, but seriously, some people need a reality check. Grasping at straws? We're stating that you're acting whiny and for some reason, I think a lot of people will agree with that statement.

It could be that you're just making fun of us by acting a complete retard, or that your social skills are below zero (like Milk Paton would say, your EQ is lower than my ball count), but honestly, you're kidding, right? You're not being serious with this?


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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 02:42
I agree too, and not just from this forum, but from others on the internet. The PS3 "fanboys" are very sensitive about differing opinions. Toss aside the comments from the usual flamers (and no I'm not going to name names)--- you know, the ones who throw up the generic unfounded insults--- and I can understand. But those of us who have real concerns, i.e. the crap game to good game ratio, are constantly being accused of "victimizing". If I make a comment about how Sony was ridiculing Microsoft for their lack of consistent backwards compat. on the 360 (which they did do), this can be spun by an emotional PS3 fanboy as attacking them with unfounded lies.

I don't have enough fingers for how many times I was personally accused of saying one thing and hinting at another, or spreading "unfounded lies", etc. etc. Honestly I'm used to it so I don't let it bother me, but yes I agree that the PS3 supporters most often display a high level of sensitivity toward negative comments.

Hell, you don't see me fly off the handle when somebody gives me an honest impression of their 360 or Wii experiences. I give the utmost respect to those who have actually tried it. Many of the PS3 fanboys on this forum a.) have never played the competition's consoles and/or b.) do not even have a PS3



ionstream
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 03:15
It was Raven's post that ticked me off, as he was just posting to make himself seem enlightened. I don't own a PS3 as it is clearly the worst system of the three (and that rhymed). I don't care about the console wars, but I do care when someone is being ripped into for no reason.

I actually had high hopes for Lair since Factor 5 made it, and I thought the Rogue Squadron games were fantastic (for the most part). Its a shame it turned out to be crud :/ .

That's not as bad as you think you said.
Krilik
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 03:33
For the sake of people who actually have some sense, I'm going to reiterate what I said before I even started "defending" the PS3 in this thread, and I know some are just going to blatantly ignore it because I'm "whining".

Quote: "I've disregarded most of them because they're either hypocrtical, absurd, or derived from arbitrary expectations"


Jeku your example of your "real concern" is hypocritical. Its an industry wide concern, but its only expressed when its a fault of the PS3. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen anyone who purposefully makes a post to comment on either of the other systems lack of good games on their system without having already been pointing out the PS3, or including it. Which includes the kind of people who don't like the line-up on the 360 based on their "fanboyism". Take this for example, look a few of threads down in Geek Culture, "Halo 3 overrated" locked at two pages. This thread is still open with people still complaining about the PS3. Its more annoying because of its blatant hypocrisy and labeling of "whining of victimization" than it is victimizing.

If there was no merit to what I am talking about, there would be threads about how people don't like the 360 and the Wii also. But there isn't. Any time one of these threads pop up the majority of the time its because there is an overwhelming negative opinion about Sony and/or the PS3 of these "real concerns". And honestly I don't see how you can deny it.
tha_rami
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 03:37 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2007 03:37
Honestly, and really honestly, I like the PS3. I can't wait to see it's potential unlocked. I would absolutely love to get my hands on Uncharted.

I won't deny that there is an overwhelming negative opinion about Sony and/or the PS3. I will even add to that that the PS2 won the previous round of the console wars. Combine those two and everyone will see that something must've gone quite wrong with either the console, the games or the marketing.

That everything is picking up again is great, but honestly, some PS3-people here are just whining big time. And believe me, I'm a guy who likes to debate.


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