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Geek Culture / Pirate Bay founders jailed :O

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Black Rebel Heart
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 03:44 Edited at: 18th Apr 2009 03:47
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TPB is a pretty cool place tbqh

sucks for music though
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draknir_
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 03:47 Edited at: 18th Apr 2009 03:53
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Quote: "I wish he was tortured too."


LOL, wow.

...

Like it or not filesharing and piracy are here to stay, and while this court judgement may seem like a big win for copyright holders it's really just a tiny drop in a vast sea. I think governments and publishers/copyright holders need to find better methods of distribution and pricing to reduce piracy.
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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 04:04
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Quote: "I think governments and publishers/copyright holders need to find better methods of distribution and pricing to reduce piracy."


They do try, and then we end up with crap like secuROM that end up making people pirate more.

this isn't technically joining in on the thread argument.

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Samoz83
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 05:23
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Quote: "I wish he was tortured too."


bit extreme isn't it?

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Super Nova
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 06:01
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Just read the first few posts but here is my two cents...

Glad they were jailed, most of the people defending them probably used their site on a daily basis and are criminals themselves according to law.

They were supplying the tools for malicious activities, the PIRATE in their name says it all, that was their intentions.

I find it sad that there are so many people who find nothing wrong with what they were doing... shouldn't you have to earn what you have?

"What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion."
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Libervurto
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 06:08
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I hate piracy, I'd much rather give £10 to a film company than £5 to fat guy with a cam-corder. It's not just about the quality of the product, it's where the money is going to.
You're paying to be entertained, if you don't want to pay full price go make your own entertainment.

These guys are responsible because they've created an environment for people to commit piracy. It's kind of like being a pimp and claiming you aren't involved in prostitution.

can't read?
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Veron
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 07:35
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Quote: "I wish he was tortured too."


You have a serious problem.

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MIDN90
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 07:56
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Quote: "I wish he was tortured too."


That isn't necessarily bad. According to the POTUS, torture includes sleep deprivation...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8003537.stm
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dark coder
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 08:57
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Quote: "Glad they were jailed, most of the people defending them probably used their site on a daily basis and are criminals themselves according to law."


Based on what evidence? You do realise someone needs to represent the defendants. Saying that they must be pirates themselves simply because they are defending people who advocate it is akin to saying that lawyers who defend murderers must be murderers themselves, which is completely baseless and asinine.

Quote: "I hate piracy, I'd much rather give £10 to a film company than £5 to fat guy with a cam-corder. It's not just about the quality of the product, it's where the money is going to."


People pay for the torrents now?

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Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 11:06
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Okay, here's my standing on piracy:

Sure, you can hate it, you can rant and rave on about it in forums like this, you can whinge and say 'they should stop it',

but in the long term, what are you gonna do?

If you want piracy to stop completely, then at least tell us how we stop it. I mean, if you were in the shoes of whoever has a vast amount of power, say, the president of the united states, what would you do?

You can't shut down every last piracy/torrent site as other would just appear, you can't find every last pirate and put them behind bars as you'd have a huge amount of people, and to put it plainly you can't stop piracy.

I reckon there's nothing short of blowing up the entire world that could stop it.

"You are not smart! You are very un-smart!"
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Bizar Guy
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 12:05
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It's just great how this doesn't actually effect anything in the end.

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Veron
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 12:11
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Yeah, IanM summed it up pretty well -
Quote: "
Basically (as the TPB people have said) this is all just a show and will have no real impact at all, apart from making TPB a household name."


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Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 12:22
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Quote: "It's just great how this doesn't actually effect anything in the end.
"


My point exactly.

"You are not smart! You are very un-smart!"
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Grandma
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 12:41
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My point exactly.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 12:45
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So they shouldn't be jailed because doing so will not affect piracy?

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 13:12
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A drug lord also shouldn't be taken down because doing so will not effect the drug trade, people can get their crack somewhere else.


I love that logic. It sends out all of the right messages. Right now, I'll have a website designed for piracy, so all those little pirates can go about their business and because the same logic can apply to drug lords, I may as well have the advertisements and donation to jump start my business in the drug trade industry. Download Crysis, donate and then buy some hash. I could earn a fortune illegally because if the police/courts took me down then it wouldn't do much to solve the problem, so it's pointless for them to even bother.




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Robin
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 13:43
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Quote: "A drug lord also shouldn't be taken down because doing so will not effect the drug trade, people can get their crack somewhere else."


Doesn't apply to this case. Think about it...
your drug lord is in possession of the drugs, and sells it directly to the buyers. Taking him down would obviously have an effect. However, to apply this analogy to TPB case, you'd have to be considering them as middle men selling on the drugs, and prosecuting them. Taking down the middle men - which is in effect who TPB are, will not have any effect because people will just get their drugs somewhere else. You have to go after the source of the drugs to have any effect. In this case, it would be the actual people who are sharing the music/movies/whatever - not the people passing it on, or downloading it.

However, as we've already seen, taking legal action against the millions of people worldwide sharing their files is ineffective/impossible. So another solution will need to be found...

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Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 13:55
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Quote: "My point exactly. "


Exactly. I love your way of thinking Grandma

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jezza
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 14:22
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Quote: "Nobody would risk going to jail, moving shop to Sweden (is the owner(s) of TPB even from sweden? Doubtful), just for the lulz. If his bank account doesn't show a balance of hundreds of mill I'd be astounded."

They are Swedish. Their severs are in Thailand atm actually.
And who cares if they are making loads of money? I don't think they are, but even if they were they are still promoting the cause loads. Do you guys know how much support for them there is now they've got sentenced. The media made a bad mistake in publicising it, because now piracy will go up loads, and its right back in their face.
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Veron
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 14:26
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Quote: "Their severs are in Thailand atm actually."


Do you have any proof? Not saying you're wrong, but I just haven't heard it and would like confirmation of it.

Quote: "(is the owner(s) of TPB even from sweden? Doubtful)"


Only one lives in Sweeden (Peter Sunde), the other three i'm not sure about.

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TheComet
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 15:51
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Quote: "5% of something is better than 5% of nothing, which is what they will get if you pirate their music. They will get nothing. Somehow that's better?"


5% of something is worse than 85% of something. Like the guy who sells kitchen knives.

Quote: "That's a joke, right"


Sort of. It was quite late and I wasn't thinking, so lets all forget about that comment of mine.

Quote: "Well, the way you think it should be, and the way it is, don't seem to be aligned. A judge will not accept your excuse of "You see, this is the way it should be." Try it if you're ever arrested for copyright violations"


They are aligned with a few million pirating people. I Know a few who do that.

Quote: "For most media, there are ways to do that legally. You can walk into most CD shops here and listen to any of the albums. You can go to iTunes or Amazon and listen to a preview of each track before purchase. You can rent a movie or game from Blockbuster and watch it before deciding whether to purchase it. Most software companies have trial versions of their software."


Another way for those blasted corporations to beat money out of you...

Quote: "Well, that's not how the world works. You can't just take something and then pay for it if you appreciate the work."


There are always pro's and con's.

Quote: "Yes, it is.

The way they catch you is the MPAA, ESA, IRAA, etc help seed the torrents. When they see you downloading/uploading data, they can log your IP address and get your information through your ISP."


That is illegal to do in Switzerland.

@ xplosys

I agree with you.

TheComet

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 17:22
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Quote: "5% of something is worse than 85% of something. Like the guy who sells kitchen knives."

And yet the guy who sells kitchen knives probably won't sell as many knives as the guy who sells CDs will sell CDs.

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Dared1111
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 19:16
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Some useful things have stemed from illegal activity (if it weren't for illegal activity, alcohol may still be banned in America).
Alot of things are illegal because society has not adapted to doing things safely (Heroin for example).

Piracy will probally always exist. Valve are pretty much conquering it, by giving the buyer a service when they buy. Gabe Newell actually game a speech on this matter. This is proven as Spore originally gave bad service, so it was pirated for better service. If a developer can give better service than pirates to, then the game will actually be brought, not downloaded. Its not actually about DRM, as World of Goo, with no DRM, has a 90% piracy rate, as was shown in the news of the developer's site.

A game designer asked pirates why they pirate. The answers were about because they can and some because they couldnt afford it.

Maybe developer's could provide better service or adapt distribution.
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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 19:54 Edited at: 18th Apr 2009 19:55
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Quote: "They are aligned with a few million pirating people. I Know a few who do that."


There are many more millions of crack cocaine users and pushers. They're both criminal acts. Your point?

Quote: "5% of something is worse than 85% of something. Like the guy who sells kitchen knives."


Did you even read my post? The artists can create their own labels or sign with smaller labels for the chance of a higher return if they please. In fact some of my favourite bands have done just that.

Quote: "Another way for those blasted corporations to beat money out of you..."


When I buy a CD or a game I don't have the feeling that the money was "beaten out of me". I'm not going to argue capitalism with you. There are many countries in the world that have those same issues with people making money, and you're free to move there (if you already don't live there of course). Or, start a political party in your country and try to get the laws changed.

Quote: "There are always pro's and con's."


And there are pros and cons to robbing a bank. It's still illegal to pirate music.

We are discussing the law, here, not a pipe dream for an alternate reality that you feel we should all be a part of.

Quote: "Some useful things have stemed from illegal activity"


Even if that were true, the fact is the law is still there at this moment. It doesn't care if you feel like it shouldn't be illegal--- it is.

We're not talking about games and software you can't legally purchase now. I wouldn't be as anal if people want to download old Atari ST ROMs from companies that don't even exist. What we're talking about are games and movies that are still being sold. Use your brains

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David R
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 20:00
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Quote: "
Even if that were true, the fact is the law is still there at this moment. It doesn't care if you feel like it shouldn't be illegal--- it is."


Laws don't get repealed magically, you know


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MIDN90
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 20:14
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Quote: "Laws don't get repealed magically, you know"


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IanM
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 21:35
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I have to laugh when people equate copyright infringement with bank robbery and drug distribution - I think this is part of the reason that so many people have no respect for copyright. You can only cry wolf so many times before people simply stop listening.

Personally I have mixed feelings over copyright. Yes, I think that copyright should exist and it's reasonable for people to profit from their creations, but the fact that copyright lasts so long is just crazy. Then there are the continual moves to extend copyright further (even longer terms as if lifetime + 70 years isn't enough for a book in the UK or 50 years isn't enough for music, watering down of consumer rights such reduction of first sale doctrine, attacks on fair usage etc) - it's really beginning to raise my hackles. Yes, they created the items in question, but they're all based on someone else's work before them.

Quote: "Even if that were true, the fact is the law is still there at this moment. It doesn't care if you feel like it shouldn't be illegal--- it is."

I'm old enough to remember the UK Poll Tax - civil disobedience at it's best. People refused to pay, there were demonstrations and riots, the fall of Margaret Thatcher, then the law changed.

Sometimes it's good to be bad.

Quote: "Their severs are in Thailand atm actually"

No, their servers are apparently in Sweden and the Netherlands.

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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 21:47
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Let's just see if millions of people who illegally download games will change the law. This isn't a new thing. The issue has been around since there have been home computers. Sometimes I wonder why people on this forum especially are defending their right to pirate games so vehemently.

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David R
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 22:02 Edited at: 18th Apr 2009 22:11
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Quote: "Sometimes I wonder why people on this forum especially are defending their right to pirate games so vehemently."


Because the law may be the law, but it doesn't dictate our opinions.


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Lemonade
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 22:09
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Finally those noobs are jailed! I get sick and tired of people telling me to get the latest software off of The Pirate Bay. Now if only they would shut down the site!

Check out my tech blog below!
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IanM
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 22:18
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No-one has gone to jail. only one of them has a chance of going to jail. Read the news noob

@Jeku,
I believe you are reading far more into what I've written than is actually there - in fact I will state here publicly that I have no pirated games on any of my systems, and no pirated games written to CD 'just in case' either.

And I'll say this again - I believe copyright SHOULD exist. I also believe that it should be for a far shorter term than it currently is.

Copyright was supposed to be an agreement between the author and society to a short-term monopoly to enable the author to make enough money to recompense them for the original effort and to enrich the culture of the society.

Not quite what we're seeing today, is it?

Thanks in major part to 'Mickey', what we have are continually extending monopolies creating what is effectively a permanent stream of cash to people who had/have little or no involvement with the original authors, and their belief that they have a right to have money rolling in no matter what.

Example? See the BPI - they complained that youtube was showing videos of song from their members and needed to pay them more money (those members are anyone who ever written/performed a song and membership is effectively mandatory). Youtube cut the videos off (no play, no pay) and now the BPI are complaining that they should play them.

I say, 'good' to youtube and 'get a job you slackers' to the BPI.

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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 22:22 Edited at: 18th Apr 2009 22:24
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But the copyright length is a different topic altogether. Other people in this forum are condoning removing copyright law altogether--- sharing everything and making sure people don't profit from their creativity. They're also turning a blind eye to TPB because bit-torrenting can be used for legal things... technically.

EDIT:

And besides, software copyright doesn't expire, does it?

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 22:35
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Quote: "I have to laugh when people equate copyright infringement with bank robbery and drug distribution - I think this is part of the reason that so many people have no respect for copyright"


It's not 'equating it' they're different crimes, but they're something to compare to when somebody thinks "arresting people won't stop people from pirating" is a suitable argument.

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IanM
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 22:38 Edited at: 18th Apr 2009 22:42
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Currently, in the UK, it's 70 years after the death of the author for books and I believe that's the guide for software too. However, as most software is produced by companies and companies can have an effectively unlimited lifetime ...

In the original copyright law, all copyright was for a maximum of 14 years. My view is that even that 14 years is far too long, considering that the size of the marketplace that can be used to gain recompense is far larger than it was when that law was enacted (late 1700's IIRC).

For media, (again in the UK) it's 50 years, but every time we get close to that, some corporation manages to push it back a few more years.

Quote: "It's not 'equating it'"

Sure it is. You keep calling it 'piracy' don't you?
Even in the recent news someone from some media group in the UK attempted to equate copyright infringement to the Somali pirates.

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sprite
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Posted: 18th Apr 2009 22:43
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Quote: "And besides, software copyright doesn't expire, does it"


It does and it doesn't from what I understand it does after 50years like normal but after that time I think people would have moved on.

I do feel that the copyright law is a good thing as people who make stuff have the right to own that product. However The Pirate Bay case I feel will not change much. It will just move to another site.

If anything the case proves current laws are out dated and need to be updated making it easier to sue someone or request information on who put the files up.

I'll add something later on.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 00:12
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What I find sort of ironic is a lot of Disney cartoons are based off of stories written 100 years prior. (Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, etc).

Where would Disney be if those copyrights never ended?

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 00:58
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Quote: "Quote: "It's not 'equating it'"
Sure it is. You keep calling it 'piracy' don't you?"


'Piracy', that's what it's called, pirating software, what 'The Pirate Bay' are promoting through their website, what they got in trouble with the law for, that's what you're warned about every time you watch a DVD with those crazy 'FACT' intros. Taking other crimes as analogies is to illustrate how the justice system works. When somebody says: "What's the point of taking down The Pirate Bay when there's plenty of other places where somebody can pirate?" kind of miss the point of what the breaking the law is. That is why I compared it to drug dealers - not the same crime, but when trying to illustrate the right point, it is relevant, and that point is: "Crime's will always be there, but you've still got to enforce it and try to prevent it as much as possible."


Equating it would be saying the crimes are on the same level - like piracy and drug dealing are just as bad as each other, as in helping companies lose money and redistributing their products illegally is like getting a load of people hooked up on drugs and giving people the potential of screwing their lives over or dying. I don't think anybody sane or honest would 'equate' the two.

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David R
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 00:58 Edited at: 19th Apr 2009 01:01
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Quote: "sharing everything and making sure people don't profit from their creativity."


Very often, however, excessive piracy is the result of stupid production/publishing protocol - it isn't a deliberate thought process of "I want to screw person [n] out of their creativity etc." for example:

* Pointless publishing delays (when players are desperate to play / users desperate to use. A la Windows, for example)

* Ridiculous pricing models (expensive shareware tools which do one thing is a good example)

* General screwing over of the consumer (Invasive copy protection/rootkits etc.)

* Crappy products. The market is full of turd quality stuff, going for high prices (Why take a risk paying for it?)

* If other people are getting it for free, why should you pay? (the network effect)

Obviously the publishers still don't understand that voting occurs with the consumer's wallet. If any of the above is an unknown or dubious, most will torrent or acquire in other means, just to avoid the possibility of being screwed over (either by price or general stupidity). "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?"


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xplosys
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 01:17 Edited at: 19th Apr 2009 01:21
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David R,

I think that your post accurately describes the reasons many end users pirate software, but I'm curious. What about the the people who make the pirated software available, like the founders of TPB? What is their motivation to create the facility by which the software is pirated?

We know that all of the software they pointed to was already available on the web. What do you think their motivation was to create or facilitate a "super directory" of it. Did they think they were providing a needed service? Or is it something more basic, like "playing pirate"?

Why do so many people, after downloading pirated software, upload it somewhere else and make it available to others. If it were only for the reasons you stated, then their reason would have been satisfied. I have to think that a large part of pirating is notoriety.

Best.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 01:27
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Why does anybody do anything? Maybe it's for the money, maybe the notoriety, maybe the girls.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 01:32 Edited at: 19th Apr 2009 01:41
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Quote: "* General screwing over of the consumer (Invasive copy protection/rootkits etc.)."


This one is a downward spiral:

People pirate software
Software company creates a measure to beat the pirates
Pirates find a way around it
Software company make another measure to beat the pirates
...

...
Software company gets desperate and tries to make something that makes it even more difficult
Pirates continue to pirate

Software companies try to protect their products from piracy the best way they can and things like SecuROM keeps the investors happy (maybe Crysis wouldn't have been so badly pirated if it had a better security measure, weird, it was a game that people loved, it didn't come out too late, it had demos, so the high spec could be tested and they didn't screw anybody over...), however, people think piracy is the best solution? You know what's going to come next? Another security measure. And it's us honest consumers that are getting screwed over and the companies, more so than the pirates.



Quote: "* Crappy products. The market is full of turd quality stuff, going for high prices (Why take a risk paying for it?)"


Check out demos, read reviews, look on youtube for video clips, find samples, ask people. It works. A company can't always make everybody happy and sometimes crap is dished out, but it's no reason to go out and pirate it.


Though what you've posted maybe reasons, but they'd work out as very poor excuses.




[Edit]

But checking out the Crysis piracy situation, I came across something interesting to add:

Quote: "This week, Crytek president Cevat Yerli said that piracy was so bad on the PC-exclusive Crysis, that the studio would no longer be making PC-exclusive titles."



I think this can kind of suggest a potential outcome of pirating.



Source:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=188087

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sprite
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 02:38 Edited at: 19th Apr 2009 02:54
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The good is things like SecuROM will become out dated soon thank to things like Custom Executable Generation and other tools.

The thing is SecuROM was the frist gen of tools and it had lots of problems the next gen will be better and harder to break. Its really the only thing that can happen. The investors will want to protect their investments. Customers what a product that works so new better products come out.

I'll add something later on.
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Jeku
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 03:40
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@David R - You keep forgetting that the issue here is the site which has an intent to enable the distribution of illegal material. Period. That is illegal in most countries. Period. Discussing whether or not companies should be able to copyright their material is a moot point. Do you really think the judge in this case would even care whether the defendant feels copyright law should be loosened up?

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Little Bill
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My opinion on protection such as SecuROM and stuff is that it's pointless. If people want to pirate it then they will. They don't care if it's going to take a little longer to get working, as long as they get it for free that's all they care about.

If the Pirate Bay gets shut down then people are just going to find a new place to share stuff. They'll move onto (for example) Mininova, that becomes even bigger than the pirate bay as you have Mininovas users as well as people coming from TPB. Then that gets shut down and they move onto somewhere else.

If people want to pirate something, they will. If they can't, they won't buy it. So what's the loss?

I don't believe for 1 second that everyone here hasn't got at least 1 music/video file from somewhere like Limewire. I'll admit I've downloaded some music videos from Limewire or Youtube because they're not available on iTunes.
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Mr Z
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 12:32
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Problem as I see it is that protection do more damage then good. It causes to much of a fuzz for the people actually buying the game and to little for the people that pirate it.

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 12:48 Edited at: 19th Apr 2009 12:49
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I don't know, I mean I remember some of the old SecuRom arguments, pirate protection works only for a small amount of time, where people are prevented enough for developers to make some money. Plus Crysis didn't have a strong security measure and that thing was pirates so badly that they don't want to do PC exclusive titles anymore and I see it not falling under any 'annoyances' anybody would have with it - security didn't get in the way, it wasn't too expensive (it sells for £10 now), you could download the demo (so you know the gameplay and know whether or not it'll work on your system), it wasn't a load of rubbish as lot of people loved it, it wasn't released too late and the developers didn't screw their customers around. They even let you mod the damn thing.

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David R
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 15:55 Edited at: 19th Apr 2009 15:56
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Quote: "@David R - You keep forgetting that the issue here is the site which has an intent to enable the distribution of illegal material

[...]

Do you really think the judge in this case would even care whether the defendant feels copyright law should be loosened up?

"


I'm not talking about TPB specifically, more the legality and logic behind software piracy in general. But it's also worth noting that earlier you said:

Quote: "I wouldn't be as anal if people want to download old Atari ST ROMs from companies that don't even exist"


- both things are as illegal as each other. There is no difference between them in the eyes of the law. Hence you either find it completely wrong, or completely right: there is no middle ground. (It's akin to saying "Murder is wrong, but if you're murdering someone I don't care about, it's fine". It's not comparable to murder, but in terms of the law, both instances are wrong. Your moral and logical judgment is irrelevant)


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bitJericho
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 16:07
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DRM isn't about stopping piracy. It's for controlling legitimate buyers and in the case of some games (like spore), to prevent resale.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 16:07
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Conversely murdering a guy running at a group of kids strapped to a bomb would be the right thing to do.

That's where you could sit in the middle of murder, moral absolutism has its flaws - though of course the laws have to be absolute, but the judge doesn't (sometimes they can be lenient based on the situation) - kind of like the AUP and the mods by comparison.

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 16:08
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Quote: "I don't believe for 1 second that everyone here hasn't got at least 1 music/video file from somewhere like Limewire."


I don't.


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