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Geek Culture / Pirate Bay founders jailed :O

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bitJericho
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 16:11 Edited at: 19th Apr 2009 16:12
I've been known in the past to nab a few songs. I buy all my music from Amazon's mp3 store now though, since it's DRM free.

That said, I don't think it's right and I don't try to make excuses. I did it because I was cheap and unconcerned with the consequences.

Zdrok
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 16:30
Don't go off on me at all for this comment; piracy is wrong. I used to think that LimeWire was pirating, but ti's perfectly legal. The uploading is illegal, but the downloading isn't. So I want a few songs on my MP3 player and I use LW to get them. Does that make me a pirate?

I'm glad that TPB founders are in trouble, but not glad that some think LW is piracy. If it was, it'd say so.

bitJericho
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 16:33 Edited at: 19th Apr 2009 16:35
Downloading is illegal and wrong. The IRAA simply doesn't go after downloaders, because they'd be seen as attacking "their own customers".

They go after the ones distributing, but if they wanted, they could go after you too.

Quote: "If it was, it'd say so."


Wait what? Why would it say so? Most pirate communities don't say "Hey guys, we're pirates, come prosecute us!!!"

Zdrok
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 16:42
Even if it is illegal (the dwnloading), I'm not selling the music.

What I meant by that last sentence, is that if LW was piracy, it'd be taken down and the distributors sued. Just because I'm using a few songs for personal use doesn't mean it's stealing. I'm an honest consumer; you're saying me, some family members, many friends, and at least a billion others are dishonest if they use LW? Most likely the distributors had permission.

If I got sued by artists for downloading their songs off of LimeWire, I'd say that if it's for personal use, it wouldn't be stealing, sue the distribuots instead. I didn't do anything wrong, all I was doing was putting songs onto my MP3 for PERSONAL use only, I wouldn't sell those tracks.

You're saying that downloading demos of Crysis, BF2, Mafia, Medal of Honor, etc. is illegal, right? You said downloading is illegal. If I got sued, I'd say, "Don't sue me. Sue the distributors. Once again, I'm just listening to it for personal use."

bitJericho
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 16:49
LW is doing business the same way TPB is. It's almost impossible to stop it.

You are stealing, and billions others are dishonest. The distributors do not have permission. You could get sued, and you would be found guilty.

Downloading demos is not illegal, just like TPB, limewire can be used for legitimate reasons.

AndrewT
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 16:53
Quote: "Even if it is illegal (the dwnloading)"


Are you denying that downloading music from Limewire is illegal?

i like orange
Zdrok
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 16:53
I don't have anty more to say other than I am an honest customer, it's not my fault for wanting music and using LW.

If they know it's illegal, why not take it down? Because it's legal? Because it's used for so-called legitimate purposes? File-sharing's legal, sharing means giving something to some others, meaning someone is being given that song to listen to, meaning they are using a shared product, meaning it's legal.

And don't critisize me on my morals. It's for personal use, for personal entertainment. The downloading is legal as it's for personal use, the uploading isnt unless permission is granted.

bitJericho
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 16:58
Ok, this is not a statement against your morals. This is a statement that's black and white in the law.

Downloading something you don't have the rights to is ILLEGAL. Limewire cannot be taken down because it's like TPB, it's in countries where it cannot be removed. It's using a P2P system similar to torrents where the network cannot be removed short of removing the internet altogether.

You are breaking the law when you download something for nothing even if it's for personal use.

AndrewT
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 17:00 Edited at: 19th Apr 2009 17:01
Quote: "And don't critisize me on my morals. It's for personal use, for personal entertainment."


100% of the media that I buy--music, movies, video games--is for personal use. Does that mean I can legally download it, for free?

i like orange
Zdrok
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 17:01
If I stop doing this but I still have the music on my MP3 player, is it still stealing? Would you like to tell almost everyone in the world to stop? I haven't got anything from anyone asking me to stop for a $3,000-$11,000 settlement. If I do, I'd apologize and stop.

And thus this argument ends.

AndrewT
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 17:03
Quote: "The downloading is legal as it's for personal use"


Can you just explain to me what you mean by this? Are you saying that you can freely download all the games, music, and movies you want, as long as their for personal use?

i like orange
Benjamin
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 17:03
Quote: "Hence you either find it completely wrong, or completely right: there is no middle ground."

Not sure what you're trying to say. I know that pirating even Atari ST ROMs can be illegal but I don't really think it's as bad as pirating some recent software, at least in my opinion on the ethical side of things. On the legality of it I don't really need an 'opinion' as yes it's either completely illegal or completely legal, if that's what you mean?

Zdrok
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 17:09 Edited at: 19th Apr 2009 17:10
Quote: "Can you just explain to me what you mean by this? Are you saying that you can freely download all the games, music, and movies you want, as long as their for personal use?
"


This is the complete opposite of what I'm saying.

Let me explain: I have a few tracks from LW on my MP3 player. See? I admitted wholeheartedly to what I'm doing. What I meant is that if I take those tracks and sell 'em, that's a criminal offense. But if I just download a few tracks and put them on my MP3 player for me, myself and I; for personal gain only, I'm still stealing, but it technically wouldn't be. For what legitimate purpose would LW be for? If you downloaded a song just to preview it, is that still stealing? It's a tool, just like DBPro, Leadwerks, etc. You use tools for many uses. Let's compare LW to a car. You can drive it, or run someone over. You, as a human, choose whih path to take. And I chose the "use music for my own use" path, as I didn't know what that legit purpose of LW was.

-e- If you'd like me to stop using LW, please say so.

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 17:10 Edited at: 19th Apr 2009 17:14
Quote: "And thus this argument ends."

That's not how it works.

You can't download something and say that because you only want it for personal use and you're not going to sell it, it's perfectly morally acceptable - It's not. That's a completely ridiculous statement.

Quote: "If I stop doing this but I still have the music on my MP3 player, is it still stealing?"

Yes. Even if you don't listen to it any more, it's still stealing, because you have no right to own it.

Quote: "Would you like to tell almost everyone in the world to stop?"

Almost everyone would love to, I'm sure, but just because it's an impossible task to stop lots of people doesn't mean you can't stop one person at a time.
Quote: "
I haven't got anything from anyone asking me to stop for a $3,000-$11,000 settlement. If I do, I'd apologize and stop."

It's too late then - you've already broken the law. Saying sorry doesn't make it better - you know you're still breaking the law and you should really stop now, regardless of whether anyone knows or not. That is what is morally right.

EDIT: Ninja'd by three people. Pff.

Quote: ". But if I just download a few tracks and put them on my MP3 player for me, myself and I; for personal gain only, I'm still stealing, but it technically wouldn't be."

Yes, yes it would. You stole it - thus it's stealing.

Quote: "If you downloaded a song just to preview it, is that still stealing?"

Yes. Of course it is.

Quote: "It's a tool, just like DBPro, Leadwerks, etc."

However unlike DBPro and Leadwerks, you're using it to break the law.

Quote: "You can drive it, or run someone over. You, as a human, choose whih path to take. And I chose the "use music for my own use" path"

Which is the running people over path. The driving path is not downloading anything from limewire that you don't have the rights to.

Zdrok
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 17:12
Then I'll stop, remove basically half of all songs from my MP3 player (about 5 are from LW), remove all tracks from my PC and they soemhow got onto iTunes too. Then what? Then how would I get the muic? It's difficult to convert iTunes' music into .wma, how else would I do this?

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 17:15
Quote: "Then how would I get the muic?"

By buying it? Isn't that the obvious answer?

Zdrok
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 17:21
Yes.

I have removed LW from my PC and all music on my MP3 and on iTunes from LW is permanently deleted. I apologize for arguing earlier; but help me out here. How do I convert MPEG4 (iTunes) into the .wma format?

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 17:23
Zdrok
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 17:25
Hahahaha, you GOTTA teach me how to do that!

Thanks (ironic because Google's my homepage).

bitJericho
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 17:25 Edited at: 19th Apr 2009 17:26
You might also be interested in using Amazon like I do to get DRM-free mp3s.

http://www.amazon.com/mp3

xplosys
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 17:28
Quote: "There is no legal way to convert m4p files directly to mp3 or wma. iTunes does allow you to legally burn an audio CD from w4p files. You can then rip the audio CD to mp3 or wma files."


Again, check the allowed usage of such files that you agree to when you download them.

Best.

Samoz83
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 18:48
Then as Jerico said use the Amazon service and convert them using windows media player.

Jeku
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 19:24 Edited at: 19th Apr 2009 19:28
Quote: "I don't believe for 1 second that everyone here hasn't got at least 1 music/video file from somewhere like Limewire."


Honestly, and you can search my hard drive if you'd like, I've got nothing except old ROMs for older computers like the Atari 1040ST. I used to have that computer when I was younger and my dad gave it away to a neighbour. Plus, you can't buy those games legally if you tried. It's a gray area yes, but I know that nobody is losing money by me having those. That being said, I love sites like GOG.COM because you can purchase outdated software for $5-10 for modern machines

Quote: "both things are as illegal as each other. There is no difference between them in the eyes of the law. Hence you either find it completely wrong, or completely right: there is no middle ground. (It's akin to saying "Murder is wrong, but if you're murdering someone I don't care about, it's fine". It's not comparable to murder, but in terms of the law, both instances are wrong. Your moral and logical judgment is irrelevant)
"


Sure, but when's the last time you saw somebody get charged with copying old Amiga games? Thought so. And yes I'm aware that it is still technically illegal, but ethically I don't think it's wrong, because I am not taking money from someone's hand.

I realize this might sound hypocritical as I previously stated that a judge doesn't care what you think is right and wrong, but up to this point I have more or less just stated what the law is. Personally there are many gray areas we all cross--- I typically speed about 10km over the speed limit, for example. Technically illegal, but not unethical or immoral as it were. Going 50km over in a school zone? No way.

Quote: "Downloading is illegal and wrong."


I just want to say that in some countries, like Canada, downloading MP3s is not illegal, because we already pay a levy for blank media.

Quote: "I didn't do anything wrong, all I was doing was putting songs onto my MP3 for PERSONAL use only, I wouldn't sell those tracks."


Where have you been? The RIAA have been suing Americans for the past several years, even old ladies and little kids, because they download MP3s for personal use. Don't kid yourself.

Zdrok
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 19:29
Well, I have stopped using LimeWire anyways, so s'all good. My view on it is mixed, but my view on piracy is what most others think; it's wrong. Not sure about the former, though.

jasonhtml
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 19:57
i feel like its too bad they got arrested... technically they aren't doing anything wrong and are only providing a service. i wish bittorrenting didnt have such a bad reputation either; it makes the technology itself look bad

Quote: "I don't believe for 1 second that everyone here hasn't got at least 1 music/video file from somewhere like Limewire."


lol you better start believing buddy because i don't listen to music at all

Robin
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 21:12 Edited at: 19th Apr 2009 21:13
I read something a while back about how Obama might have broken copyright laws when he came to visit the UK because he gave the queen a present of an ipod filled with music. The point being he didn't 'own' the music (because it's a digital format, rather than a physical CD/DVD) and didn't have the right the transfer ownership of it - instead he owned a 'license' to listen to the music, which cannot be transferred.

I guess that means that if you buy an mp3, and your friend wants to listen to it too, legally he's not allowed to - he'll have to buy a license to listen to it too. i.e. you pay to have a license to be able to listen to the song.

edit: found link:
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/04/first-sale-president-obama-and-queen-england

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Zdrok
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 21:27
President breaking the law? Can you say irony?

Airslide
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 22:01
Quote: "But none of us should want a world where even our leaders--much less the rest of us--can't figure out how copyright law operates in their daily lives."


I very much like this quote

Robin
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 22:08
exactly...I think the whole thing needs to be refreshed and brought up to date with the 21st century. Quite a job though...where to start...

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Quik
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 22:59
i dont think this is right, i mean: the founders of piratebay have a site, where u can upload everything u like, it doesnt mean it is made for piracy, just cuz it is named Piratebay, and to sue someone who has a site like that is like i sue the makers of a knife i cut myself on - becuz it was to sharp. hope u see my point =P


[Q]uik, Quiker than most
Drew Cameron
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 23:13
Why PirateBay should be shut down, and Google should not

Some people here are arguing that PirateBay is just a search engine, and you can use Google to find illegal materials too. Hence, Google\'s creators should also be jailed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_effect

PirateBays PRIMARY purpose is to allow for sharing of copyrighted material. If you listen to some music, watch a film or use software that you OTHERWISE would have PAYED FOR, it is stealing and you are breaking the law.

PirateBay unlike Google, is run with the chief purpose of facilitating piracy. Which is illegal.

Yes, the creators should be jailed and fined. Both legally and morally.

Black Rebel Heart
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 23:14
Quote: "I don't believe for 1 second that everyone here hasn't got at least 1 music/video file from somewhere like Limewire."


I have never paid for music.
Drew Cameron
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 23:15
And finally, yes everyone loves getting stuff for free. Wait until you try and sell something you have worked hard on and people steal it. THEN see how "great" PirateBay is.

I have no doubt that we are working towards a future where people do not pay for entertainment, but that doesn't mean I am happy about it as a content creator.

ionstream
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 23:17
Quote: "I have never paid for music. "


Yeah we pretty much got that from your last few posts. You're done.

xplosys
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 23:19
Quote: "and to sue someone who has a site like that is like i sue the makers of a knife i cut myself on - becuz it was to sharp. hope u see my point =P"


That's a very oversimplified view. A closer analogy would be if the knife had a known defect that caused people to be cut. They didn't intend it to be that way, but they missed the defect. Once they know about it, they have a responsibility to fix it. And if they don't, then you'd better believe they will be sued.

Let's say for the sake of argument that TPB was created for legal file sharing. When it became obvious that it was being abused, they had a responsibility to fix it. They chose to look the other way. They got sued and lost.

It's the same for any product or service. Homes, cars, health care, utilities, etc, etc, etc.

Best.

Quik
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 23:35
Quote: "That's a very oversimplified view. A closer analogy would be if the knife had a known defect that caused people to be cut. They didn't intend it to be that way, but they missed the defect. Once they know about it, they have a responsibility to fix it. And if they don't, then you'd better believe they will be sued.

Let's say for the sake of argument that TPB was created for legal file sharing. When it became obvious that it was being abused, they had a responsibility to fix it. They chose to look the other way. They got sued and lost.

It's the same for any product or service. Homes, cars, health care, utilities, etc, etc, etc.

Best."



How are they supposed to fix that? they have like 1mill+ torrents up, are they to delete all and then let ppl start over and upload new things? ppl will get upset=P Take youtube for example, sure u2be is used to upload ur own things, still more then half of the ppl there is uploading illegal music, movies, Series, aso =P and yes, they try to stop it, but not enuff, now if tpb was doing the same, i bet they would get sued to, just becuz it is the most used site for uploading illegal stuff.

did u all btw know that blizzard helped sueing just becuz Piratebay had WoW uploaded? =P


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xplosys
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 23:43
If you wanted to make a dent in piracy, and make a lot of noise, would you sue some guy who downloaded a song, or the biggest file sharing website out there.

I don't think the "I feel this way or that way" will ever be settled. There are at least two very definite trains of thought here, but the facts remain the same.

TBP was knowingly facilitating piracy, got caught, and will have to pay the price. What they could or should have done, how their clients should have acted, how you personally feel about sharing.... all irrelevant to the court case.

Best.

Robin
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Posted: 19th Apr 2009 23:55
@ Drew:
It doesn't matter what the chief purpose of google is...if they are facilitating copyright theft, intentionally or otherwise (i.e making it easy to search for torrents) then action should be taken.

Interesting/naive quote from the "International Federation of the Phonographic Industry's CEO and chairman John Kennedy":
Quote: ""The comparison with Google is amateurish," he said. "Whereas The Pirate Bay was set up to make piracy easier, Google, which has many pros and many cons associated with it, will cooperate if we ask them.""

I'd bet google's lawyers would trample all over any such case put before them. I hope that court case happens..

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Jeku
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Posted: 20th Apr 2009 00:02 Edited at: 20th Apr 2009 00:03
Quote: "it doesnt mean it is made for piracy, just cuz it is named Piratebay"




Quote: "It doesn't matter what the chief purpose of google is."


Actually it does. Intent can play a large part in a lawsuit. TPB's intent is for distribution of illegal material. That much can not be argued, and it's silly to argue.

Robin
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Posted: 20th Apr 2009 00:10
Ok, but still - if they are found to be unintentionally assiting copyright theft - which I think it can be argued that google are - then action would have to be taken...however, I would like to see anyone attempt to force google to filter its results

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xplosys
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Posted: 20th Apr 2009 00:16 Edited at: 20th Apr 2009 00:18
Quote: "I would like to see anyone attempt to force google to filter its results"


Yeah, that's a tough one. Kind of like suing the phone book because one of the listed persons was a drug dealer. Now if the listing was under the category of drug dealers, then they might have a case.

And by the same token, if Google starts returning list items like...

"All Pirated Media! Get your illegal downloads here!" they might have to do a little work on that too. LOL They already have the ability to filter results so it should be no big deal.

Best.

ionstream
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Posted: 20th Apr 2009 00:18
Google will actually take down links to illegal sites when they're asked to, so at least they're trying.

feiting shadow
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Posted: 20th Apr 2009 00:18 Edited at: 20th Apr 2009 00:21
This argument is very circular, you guys also cut the dandylion's head to get rid of the weeds?

First, analyze. The media loves to bloat cases like these, one prime example is Kevin Mitnick. The alleged super-hacker who simply got into a news company, who then decided to blame him for everything else. (from the old freeKevin site).

A very recent example is ConFicker. No hacker's dumb enough to point millions of machines towards himself, but apparently it "Finds all your info, somehow decrypts it, disables everything, and sends the info to a chinese man", to summarize what everyone's supposed to think. I personally responded to a news article on WPRI.com telling them why it's impossible... instead of removing my comment, the whole article got taken off. (but I saved a copy knowing they'd hide the real information, can upload it anytime). Have you guys noticed how the news says now, "Conficker hit 700 machines" but it won't say How it hit those machines??? What about the other 100 articles you see/read? Think they're not doctor'd?

My point is, you guys are debating, albeit intelligently, over what you're "supposed to think", not what's real.

Shove everything into functionality to see what matters. I personally intended to upload my indie stuff to all torrent sites when I finished something worth doing. It's helpful. And while I don't play old Atari, who's losing money on MAME games? Practicality states one thing, legality states another.

Also, "legality" doesn't really have moral weight. Heroin needles were in JC Penny catalogues in 1920. Currently, there's tons of innocent people in Jail from cases that have been altered by attorneys just to profit. My friend's brother's serving life now 'cause he was escorting a caravan of kids in the marines, ones tummy ached so he rubbed it, and the kid said 'Ew he touched me'. That was bloated into a case in which the attorney convinced 12/13 jury members it was sexual, the 13th cried when the case was over in disbelief the others were convinced.

That's not the only case I know of, but I have no intent on doing anything about it lest I lose my own life.

My point is, why side with the media? Do you even know who decides what's legal?

I buy what I get personally, but it'll be a long time before I ever decide "it's right because the law says this"

Signed
------
David R
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Posted: 20th Apr 2009 00:21 Edited at: 20th Apr 2009 00:29
Quote: "Actually it does. Intent can play a large part in a lawsuit. TPB's intent is for distribution of illegal material. That much can not be argued, and it's silly to argue."


No: The primary purpose of TPB is to index torrents. That's it. The illegal intent can only be read in from its name - and since when do we judge things legally based upon names?

Quote: "On the legality of it I don't really need an 'opinion' as yes it's either completely illegal or completely legal, if that's what you mean?
"


I meant in regards to finding piracy as a whole, ethically right or wrong. Because both the ROMs and modern software are the same crime in the eyes of the law (i.e. you can't say ROMs are OK but everything else isn't, because they're both the same crime. There's no logic behind that stance)

Quote: "y friend's brother's serving life now 'cause he was escorting a caravan of kids in the marines, ones tummy ached so he rubbed it, and the kid said 'Ew he touched me'."


Sorry, but I call BS on that. You would not get life imprisonment for rubbing a child's stomach, regardless of whether the prosecution managed to spin it as indecent contact / molestation.


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xplosys
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Posted: 20th Apr 2009 00:30 Edited at: 20th Apr 2009 00:32
Quote: "No: The primary purpose of TPB is to index torrents. That's it. The illegal intent can only be read in from its name - and since when do we judge things legally based upon names?"


That's like a drug dealer saying.... my primary purpose is to make drugs. LOL All a pimp does is make woman available.

To come to this conclusion, we must assume that TPB:

1. Did not know that they were facilitating piracy.
2. Were never warned by numerous agencies that they were.
3. Were never asked to stop.

Of course we all know that is not the case.

Best.

David R
21
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Joined: 9th Sep 2003
Location: 3.14
Posted: 20th Apr 2009 00:32 Edited at: 20th Apr 2009 00:32
Quote: "That's like a drug dealer saying.... my primary purpose is to make drugs. LOL"


No it isn't, because drugs are illegal regardless. Running search engines is not. (And by this logic, Google should be incriminated also)


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
xplosys
19
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Joined: 5th Jan 2006
Playing: FPSC Multiplayer Games
Posted: 20th Apr 2009 00:33 Edited at: 20th Apr 2009 00:34
Apparently, running search engines for illegal content is illegal. Now make up your mind... were they running it or not. If they were running it and it was being used for illegal means then guess what?

Best.

David R
21
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Joined: 9th Sep 2003
Location: 3.14
Posted: 20th Apr 2009 00:35 Edited at: 20th Apr 2009 00:35
Quote: " If they were running it and it was being used for illegal means then guess what?
"


Google is screwed too then? (Running it and illegal use is the only criteria by what you just said)


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
xplosys
19
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Joined: 5th Jan 2006
Playing: FPSC Multiplayer Games
Posted: 20th Apr 2009 00:42
Best.
Quote: "Google is screwed too then?"


I think that point was already conceded. If Google is found to be facilitating piracy, they will be asked to correct it. And I'm sure they will, as any responsible company would when they were told about it. When Google is told about illegal content, they remove the listing. I know.

When I contact a hosting service about illegal or copyright materials, they respond and remove the content, sometimes the entire sight. Any responsible company would.

Best.

the_winch
22
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Joined: 1st Feb 2003
Location: Oxford, UK
Posted: 20th Apr 2009 01:08 Edited at: 20th Apr 2009 01:10
Quote: "When Google is told about illegal content, they remove the listing. I know."


Funny, they still index tpb and rapidshare. Both sites that allow users to share and don't monitor content and so are full of illegal content.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.

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