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Geek Culture / Pirate Bay founders jailed :O

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 08:55
That's not the only way executives get to the top but sadly a lot of them.

Chris K
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 10:00
Quote: "If you shoplift a CD and you weren't going to buy it anyway then it's not a lost sale."


Obviously it is. This is because shops have to buy their actual stock but don't need to buy their digital stock.

It's precisely the point that the 'shops' can produce an infinite amount of stock for no cost that people feel it is OK.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 13:43
Quote: "That's not the only way executives get to the top but sadly a lot of them."


What is this founded on? Is it speculation, or do you have facts and figures on how many exevs trample on people to get to the top. It is often the joke and sometimes true, but I wonder how much of it is fact and how much of it is fiction?

Quote: "Piracy is wrong, yeah, but someone who's downloaded something illegally probably wasn't going to buy it anyway, so how can it be counted as a lost sale? There's no way to quantify how many people would have bought the software they torrented; it would pretty much be torrent it or go without it for most of those people."


Why should a person receive a product that is worth money but aren't willing to pay for it? If you want something, then pay for it, if you can't afford it, save up, if you're not willing to buy it, then it can't be that important for you to buy.

But also think, how many peope can use that as an excuse? Think if everybody who pirated Crysis just weren't 'willing' to pay for it, by the fact they're pirating shows that it's likely they're not going to pay for it anyway. Like any shoplifter isn't going to pay for their item (the only different of course, is that the shop will make a lot on the produce of the item...then again if enough people pirate and a company doesn't break even because so many have pirated, then they've made a loss anyway.)

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entomophobiac
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 13:55
"I agree that piracy is bad in most cases, and for game developers releasing only/mainly single player PC games it's a huge deterrent. I just think going after the owners of TPB is the wrong way to fix the problem, going after them won't get TPB shut down and even if they manage that then another similar site will just spring up in another country with more lenient laws."

I think this is a very valid argument, really. There's no point for the Swedish legal system to penalize something that can simply be moved across a few borders or placed somewhere in the cloud to get away from Swedish laws.

It's a global problem. Legal consequences may scare people in Sweden for a while, but to completely "eradicate" piracy would require an entirely different distribution model. Right now, most digital products are simply easier to copy illegaly than they are to buy.

In my opinion, though I think that the TPB crew deserve jailtime and fines, I think the piracy dilemma can't be overcome by brute force. It has to be circumvented with such things as Steam or possibly OnLive.

Until then, I'd suggest flogging. Or simply that people realize their precious PC will be dumbed-down and micro-transactioned into oblivion if publishers and developers don't get paid for their products.
David R
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 18:12 Edited at: 24th Apr 2009 18:14
Quote: "Right, don't kid yourself."


Have you ever actually had a job? They pay certain positions better, because the work they do tends to either consume their lives, or flat out suck in terms of life/pay ratio. Being an executive is not some kind of "paradise job" (although it obviously depends upon workplace, but the big names aren't handing out those positions willy-nilly)


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Jeku
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 18:27
Some of the execs at my work come in at 8 and leave at 2:30. They started in the trenches like everyone else and worked their way up.

Drew Cameron
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 20:13
Don't bash the execs just because they are succesful kids. Have you actually ever known someone high up? Dont buy into 2 dimensional stereotypes, they worked for it just like everyone else.

xplosys
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 21:29
Quote: "but don't need to buy their digital stock."


If they pirate it, yes. Otherwise, someone has to pay for it or the creator, producer, agent, etc, etc... don't get paid. When you pirate something, you're not stealing something that is free. A lot of money was invested to get it to the point where you stole it.

Best.

puppyofkosh
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 22:25
Quote: "Being an executive is not some kind of "paradise job"
"


I agree. Recently a CEO of some big company(I forget which) killed himself because of all of the pressure. Obviously you don't want a job like that but its pretty clear that he had a lot of pressure and got overwhelmed.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Apr 2009 00:10
Then again a lot of jobs have their pressure, but some have their rewards, but it's something you got to be able to deal with, there are always people you can go to, pressure is something you can learn to deal with. Though it is sad that whoever that person was decided to commit suicide.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 25th Apr 2009 01:05 Edited at: 25th Apr 2009 01:08
Quote: "Where is this £650000 a year coming from now, do you think, now the bank is running on public money?

Oh, the public.

If that's not theft I don't know what is. People pleaded with him not to be so damned greedy. All he said was "no"."


So? If I wrote his bank a check like that, I'd hold him accountable (which they did, by firing him). They probably should have thought about it before bailing the bank out. Anyway, it's business, and with the loan is the expectation that the bank will recover. The only people getting hurt are the investors, IE, the people who *made* the bank!

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Apr 2009 01:26
If it's the tax-payer's money being used to bail a bank out, then more people are getting hurt, by bailing the banks out and having the banks run under the system that they were under means that money is not spent on the NHS (which has been doing badly), it always means it's not spent on education nor anything else that is of interest to that tax-payers.

Or at least that's how I understand it.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 25th Apr 2009 01:29 Edited at: 25th Apr 2009 01:30
Quote: "If it's the tax-payer's money being used to bail a bank out, then more people are getting hurt, by bailing the banks out and having the banks run under the system that they were under means that money is not spent on the NHS (which has been doing badly), it always means it's not spent on education nor anything else that is of interest to that tax-payers.

Or at least that's how I understand it.
"


Absolutely. However, this so called "evil CEO" was allowed to run the bank by the investors, was allowed to get a retirement package and pay. It's not like he took it from underneath the bank's feet.

If I go to your house and sell you a video game (and you knew what you were buying) for 1m dollars and you give me 1m dollars, you can't come back later and be like "I totally got ripped off, pay me back plz", I'd laugh in your face.

Now, if I go to your house and you steal my game cuz you don't like the price, that's downright wrong.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Apr 2009 03:25
I think people are entitled their agreed pay, by all means, though people don't always view it on a civil right point of view here, just that it's cheeky for a CEO to still earn that kind of money when their bank has gone to crap and that now the tax payers are being charged for it. Perhaps it's more of a question on what's right or decent and not what's legal or what somebody is entitled to. As far as what the bank CEO earns, I sit on the fence on that one.

Besides the tax payers aren't the investors, just the people who bail then out of debt. And I suppose a tax payer will moan when their money isn't being spent on things they don't like and rightfully I believe, as if enough people moan and go through the proper democratic processes, then the tax payer can effect what their money is spent on/invested in.



Oh and I'm on the side of the arguments 'against' pirating, of course physically stealing your game is downright wrong (though not the same as pirating through a digital medium, if I were to download it illegally it would be wrong too, even if I didn't like the prices and wasn't going to buy it anyway. )

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Robin
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Posted: 25th Apr 2009 03:27
yes, there's legal technicalities which it seems mean there's nothing anyone can do to force him to give back/reduce his pension, but then there's also just the idea of *morals and common decency* which Goodwin seems to be lacking in...I dont see how he can live with himself after so devastating bringing down the bank, turning in the biggest annual loss ever recorded in the UK (£24.1 BILLION), get bailed out by tax payers money, and then walk away from the mess, giving himself a pat on the back and a £19MILLION pension....as a 'reward'.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 25th Apr 2009 08:21 Edited at: 25th Apr 2009 08:21
Quote: "yes, there's legal technicalities which it seems mean there's nothing anyone can do to force him to give back/reduce his pension, but then there's also just the idea of *morals and common decency* which Goodwin seems to be lacking in...I dont see how he can live with himself after so devastating bringing down the bank, turning in the biggest annual loss ever recorded in the UK (£24.1 BILLION), get bailed out by tax payers money, and then walk away from the mess, giving himself a pat on the back and a £19MILLION pension....as a 'reward'."


I agree. But in terms of morality, I'm not convinced he did worse than a thief. While he should give it back out of common decency, he took advantage of a situation offered to him and nobody's to blame but the investors that gave him the chance (and that includes the government that bailed the bank out).

Chris K
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Posted: 25th Apr 2009 12:21
Quote: "he took advantage of a situation offered to him and nobody's to blame but the investors that gave him the chance"


Surely this is not the basis of our morality?!
If someone leaves a safe unlocked its not your fault for robbing it?? If someone forgets a bulletproof vest it's not your fault for shooting them?

It was the enablers... I was merely taking advantage a situation that I found myself in

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Grandma
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Posted: 25th Apr 2009 12:29
Quote: "It was the enablers... I was merely taking advantage a situation that I found myself in"

That's the spirit.

This message was brought to you by Grandma industries.

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mamaji4
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Posted: 25th Apr 2009 12:38 Edited at: 25th Apr 2009 12:41
Quote: "If someone leaves a safe unlocked its not your fault for robbing it??"

I'd like to elaborate on that.
Does that mean if someone hacks into your account and steals your credit card information they are justified. Of course they are. It's not their fault for robbing it. After all it was closed. And it's not even their fault for robbing a safe that was open, leave alone one that was closed.

I don't think a crime like stealing is open to anyone's subjective value judgement.

If at first you don't succeed, relax. You're like the rest of us.
Insert Name Here
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Posted: 25th Apr 2009 12:41
Quote: "Does that mean if someone hacks into your account and steals your credit card information they are justified. Of course they are."

I think someone's confused. He's saying it's his fault for robbing the safe regardless of whether it's open or not.

mamaji4
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Posted: 25th Apr 2009 12:42
Sarcasm is hard to recognise.

If at first you don't succeed, relax. You're like the rest of us.
Insert Name Here
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Posted: 25th Apr 2009 13:31
Especially in text.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Apr 2009 13:49
Especially in Mamaji.

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mamaji4
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Posted: 25th Apr 2009 15:19
Quote: "Especially in Mamaji. "



If at first you don't succeed, relax. You're like the rest of us.
erazerswe
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Posted: 26th Apr 2009 06:39 Edited at: 26th Apr 2009 10:00
A song by Rage against the machine comes to mind..."killing in the name" and the quote "i wont do what you tell me"
The ships will keep on sailing, since we are all the pirate bay!!

[ModEdit]Please don't swear on these forums, even if some of the letters are starred out[/ModEdit]
tha_rami
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Posted: 28th Apr 2009 14:21
I was glad to hear the result.

You know, the problem with the Pirate Bay isn't even that they facilitate torrenting, or that they have a search engine. No, it's that they don't do enough to prevent illegal torrents from being accessible. If they'd do that, good. If not, their service is intently being used by the majority of its users to download illegal content and thus the service should be shut down.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 02:38
Quote: "You know, the problem with the Pirate Bay isn't even that they facilitate torrenting, or that they have a search engine. No, it's that they don't do enough to prevent illegal torrents from being accessible. If they'd do that, good. If not, their service is intently being used by the majority of its users to download illegal content and thus the service should be shut down."


Exactly what the judge said:

http://government.zdnet.com/?p=4731

Tapewormz
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 03:56
You guys need to get your facts straight. The founders of the pirate bay have NOT been jailed. They were sentenced to one year in jail and a heafty fine, but they appealed it. It'll be another 2-3 years before they start this process all over again. If they lose again, they'll appeal it and will keep doing so as they clearly state on their website.

Also, they have not been ordered to take down the site.

So lets recap shall we:

1) Founders not in jail.
2) Founders won't see jail for atleast 6 years.
3) They haven't paid, nor will they pay any of the fine.
4) The site will remain live, as it hasn't been ordered offline.

Tapewormz
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 03:59
Quote: "don't do enough to prevent illegal torrents from being accessible"


I can do a search for a torrent hash in Google and start downloading. Should google be ordered offline, and the founders be put in jail and fined?

Jeku
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 04:00
We've already discussed Google. Read the previous pages, or can I lock this now? We're just going in loops

xplosys
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 05:04
Quote: "1) Founders not in jail.
2) Founders won't see jail for atleast 6 years.
3) They haven't paid, nor will they pay any of the fine.
4) The site will remain live, as it hasn't been ordered offline."


Could I borrow your crystal ball. I'd like to see where I am in 6 years.

Brian.

Lemonade
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 06:49 Edited at: 3rd May 2009 06:53
Quote: "I can do a search for a torrent hash in Google and start downloading. Should google be ordered offline, and the founders be put in jail and fined?"


Ask yourself these two questions:

1. Do you think of "software piracy" when you hear the name Google? 2. Do you know of anyone who goes to the pirate bay to NOT do any illegal activity? I didn't think so.

The owners of TPB are so noobish anyway. I once went to their twitter page--big mistake. Right after they had partially won a court case, one message said something like "JUDGE PWNT LOLZ". um...yah. Good riddance I say.

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dark coder
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 07:41
Quote: "Do you know of anyone who goes to the pirate bay to NOT do any illegal activity?"


Everyone that goes there? Downloading torrent files is hardly illegal after all. Unless you're talking about the potential illegal things one can do after they have these files.

Quote: "um...yah. Good riddance I say."


Sentencing the owners doesn't kill the site, so there was nothing gotten rid of really.

Izzy545
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 08:18
Quote: "Everyone that goes there? Downloading torrent files is hardly illegal after all. Unless you're talking about the potential illegal things one can do after they have these files."


That's just silly semantics, the intent is OBVIOUSLY to give links to files that allow them to do illegal activity.

Lemonade
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 09:04 Edited at: 3rd May 2009 09:05
Quote: "That's just silly semantics, the intent is OBVIOUSLY to give links to files that allow them to do illegal activity.
"


Exactly. So many people pretend it's just a "search engine", when in reality they are only trying to defend their main source for pirated material.

Quote: "Sentencing the owners doesn't kill the site, so there was nothing gotten rid of really. "


Unfortunate, but true.

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Little Bill
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 10:19
Quote: "Exactly. So many people pretend it's just a "search engine", when in reality they are only trying to defend their main source for pirated material.
"


So people aren't allowed there own opinion? Just because they think different to you doesn't mean you can assume they are wrong.

GamerDude
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 14:00
HAHA, stupid pirates! That'd teach em'!

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Veron
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 14:03
Quote: "That'd teach em'!"


Funny, doesn't look like its taught them anything.

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 14:08
And they're not stupid either. Anyone who can alter an Exe so it doesn't realise it's pirated is not stupid.

David R
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 14:10
Quote: "That's just silly semantics, the intent is OBVIOUSLY to give links to files that allow them to do illegal activity."


Yeah, a guy on the news OBVIOUSLY killed his wife - why bother with the silly semantics like finding her body?


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tatts
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 15:44
Personally I think there is no need for jailing and fining them seeing it really is'nt going to teach anyone anything. People will alway have one thing set in mind and that's " Just because it happened to them does'nt mean it will happen to me".

The fact is, People should just stop selling programs and such online and start selling their products in stores or through the mail like they did in the old days.

If you order cable tv, You have a choice of what stations you want and what you don't want. The one you don't want such as movie stations, they simply put a FILTER on your line to block them out.

Technology is advanced enough I think that they can design filters that work in the same way as the ones for cable. Perhaps design filters that disables sharing of certain file types or disables sharing period.

One idea is to have it so residents can d/l but not u/p, and just reserve uploading rights to only commercial use of course after proving you run a legit business.
Except design filters that would at least allow people to share things like pictures and no other media types like mp3s,video and so on, specially no file types such as zip and rar files. I think this would be easier to do than anything else. And would probably stop most piracy.
Roxas
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 16:07
Torrents contain none copyrighted data. ThePirateBay hosts only torrents and works as search engine for them, thus ThePirateBay is legal.

This is, when we use laws instead of common sense.

dark coder
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 16:16
Quote: "One idea is to have it so residents can d/l but not u/p"


Great idea, except not. You require upload to do anything.

Quote: "Except design filters that would at least allow people to share things like pictures and no other media types like mp3s,video and so on, specially no file types such as zip and rar files."


Great idea, except not. How would you differentiate between them? You can easily encode binary files in images.

Quote: "And would probably stop most piracy."


It would also stop all internet use. You may as well have just suggested we nuke all populations.

tatts
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 16:23
A torrent is like a door man for a large building. He assists people in and out of the building by opening the door for them.

In this case the "building" being the great web of illegal content.

Which is no different than accompanying someone to do something illegal. Sure they did'nt actually do the crime by sharing it out themselves but they were accomplices to the crime and just as guilty.
dark coder
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 16:29
Quote: "A torrent is like a door man for a large building. He assists people in and out of the building by opening the door for them.

In this case the "building" being the great web of illegal content."


Except not, it's more like a building some people own that's full of post-it notes, anyone can come into the building and add new ones or look at the existing ones and the owners don't care what's written on them. It's just that the majority of the notes have directions written on them for places where you can do illegal things.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 16:45 Edited at: 3rd May 2009 17:09
Well yes, in that analogy (to extend it), the doorman could at least put an effort into making sure that people are doing things legally, he wouldn't be able to see every transaction, but would be on the look out for anything dodgy so that at least when the coppers go around that he can say, "I opened this house up for legal business, and everybody signed a disclaimer and I kept an eye on the business of as many people as possible and kicked out all I caught breaking the rules."

What did the Pirate Bay do to try and prevent illegal activity through their website? And what did they do to try and make sure that the people using their website were doing so for legitimate reasons?


[edit] Posted at the same time

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Roxas
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 16:59 Edited at: 3rd May 2009 17:00
Even you could be, the doorman can't catch because they aren't doing anything illegal at the Website, the website has content that is not copyrighted nor illegal!
When they "buy" the torrent that is redirect to something else they do it in home. If it redirects to illegal content then that is illegal.

Again this is if we think with using laws and not common sense, if we would use common sense now The Pirate Bay would already be shut.

tatts
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 17:05
Well i'm sure they can write filters for just about anything, after all they can differentiate between good mail and spam, they can filter out language and web sites. They can also force internet providers to start limiting residential bandwidths so much that people will not want to even bother.

And if it did shut the internet down, IMO who cares, with all the garbage that is all over it I personally think they should shut it down. It would solve a lot of problems. I could easily live without it and go back to visiting the store pc products and software.

IMO It is the fault of companies like Microsoft for developing the software that allows people to do this to start with. At one point the internet was only text. If they should sue anyone it should the developers. they should have left the internet to be text only.
But people want to advance so badly.
Roxas
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Posted: 3rd May 2009 17:07 Edited at: 3rd May 2009 17:12
Filtering bittorrent downloads aren't such easy task, anyone can change their IP in the end.
Also if the doorman respects the privacy of customers he wont look into the torrents.

Quote: "IMO It is the fault of companies like Microsoft for developing the software that allows people to do this to start with. At one point the internet was only text. If they should sue anyone it should the developers. they should have left the internet to be text only.
But people want to advance so badly."

Its not their fault, these kind of things are really helpful for legal activites, like in life you can choose if you are criminal or not.
Im glad softwares and technology as evoled as they are, if there would always be somekind of security crap or banning doing tasks such as developing would be much harder.
Heck you could even use SVN for piracy!

Quote: "~ Final Fantasy VIII - Squall ~
An enemy that is pure evil? Right or wrong are not what separate us and our enemies. It's our different standpoints, our perspectives that separate us. Both sides blame one another. There's no good or bad side. Just two sides holding different views."


xplosys
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Playing: FPSC Multiplayer Games
Posted: 3rd May 2009 17:11
Quote: "Except not, it's more like a building some people own that's full of post-it notes, anyone can come into the building and add new ones or look at the existing ones and the owners don't care what's written on them. It's just that the majority of the notes have directions written on them for places where you can do illegal things."


I think that is a perfect analogy. That's exactly what the pirate bay is doing, even as they themselves admit. What then is the owners liability, if any? Is it purely a personal matter or should the public have a say in it as well?

Certainly you would think... "If you don't like what's posted on those notes, don't go there or allow your children to go there." It's not hurting you if you stay away from it. But what about the content of the notes? What if one of them was your address and instructions on how to break in to your house - what to take? What if someone read how to steal your car, and did it?

The neighbors have been complaining for years that they are being robbed because of the notes, but the owner of the house say's that he is doing nothing illegal. He simply opened up the house and allowed them to post notes for job openings, and apartment sharing and such. It's not his fault if people are using it to plan robberies. This goes on for years and more and more people are robbed. Still, the owner says he is doing nothing wrong. He laughs at the neighbors and begins to post his own notes in the house, making fun of them for complaining about being robbed.

Silly story, isn't it? That would never happen.

There is a part of me that want's to back TPB, simply for the sake of what's legal and what isn't. Perhaps it's just standing behind the little guy and not letting the big companies push people around and buy their own brand of justice.

The reason I can't is that TPB had been informed time after time of their "search engine" being used for illegal activity. Not only were they knowledgeable of the facts and totally irresponsible in there running of the operation, but they taunted and made fun of those who were being robbed and otherwise financially damaged by it.

As far as I'm concerned - personally, not legally - they deserve whatever trouble, aggravation, jail time, fines, etc... they get. If only for their total disregard of other rights and property.

Brian.

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