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Geek Culture / Pirate Bay founders jailed :O

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Robert F
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 00:34
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Quote: "Might be an ignorant statement, but how would that work? As far as I know, there must be people seeding it, so at last one computer must do that... how would it work if it is private?

I am not trying to put you down, just curious, lol."


lol, yeah I guess so. That was a mistake by me.


shes a brick HOUSE!
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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 01:45 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2009 01:46
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Quote: "I kind of agree that Jeku's been a little insulting"


What did I say that isn't true? Go ahead and click the Report icon if you think I've said anything insulting or unfair. I don't give credence to people who chastise me behind my back, without telling me how they feel up front first.

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Robert F
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 02:20
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Quote: "Go ahead and click the Report icon if you think I've said anything insulting or unfair."


lol, doesn't it just go to you anyway?


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puppyofkosh
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 05:09
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I believe that's the point.
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Keo C
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 05:47
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Quote: "lol, doesn't it just go to you anyway?"


I think it goes right to the forum admin / TGC employee rather than the mods.


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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 05:55
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Quote: "lol, doesn't it just go to you anyway?"


Nope, to be honest I don't know where it goes!

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Airslide
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 07:11
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Quote: "This is almost funny..."


No kidding

Considering most of us here create software in one form or another I find it interesting that any of us defend TPB. I think your opinion quickly swings around when you are (or are about to) selling something. I think it's sad that things like model packs made for DBP/FPSC by freelance artists trying to get by are pirated when they only cost about $20

I've always been of the mind that if you aren't going to pay for it you shouldn't have it. If you don't think it's worth the money but you are willing to pirate it then evidently you want it enough that you should pay for it. Businesses can't grow if nobody buys their stuff, and the "evil corporations" are what provides us with a lot of top quality products.

As for the comment made earlier about stealing from the thieves - is that how one should fight crime? By becoming criminals? By accepting the path that ultimately leads to anarchy?

That's probably all I'm going to say on this. I don't want to be sucked into this vortex of absolute doom

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TheComet
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 12:14
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I took a look at the Swiss law.

The law says, that anyone in Switzerland can download anything they want, even if it is illegal, legally with no consequences. No one can track you doing so, because that would be illegal.

The only illegal thing is uploading copyrighted material.

And, the Pirate Bay has not been jailed, and probably wont be. So no worries at all.

Quote: "Communist, are you?"


Nope, I'm a socialist.

TheComet

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Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 12:20
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Quote: "even if it is illegal, legally with no consequences."


Apologies for Swiss people, but that's really freaking retarded.

"You are not smart! You are very un-smart!"
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Robert F
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 13:46
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Quote: "Apologies for Swiss people, but that's really freaking retarded."


That is basically the same thing in the Canada im pretty sure. You are allowed to download anything. Don't quote me on that.


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Grandma
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 13:49
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Quote: "Apologies for Swiss people, but that's really freaking retarded."

As far as I know, it's the same in Norway.

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Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 14:49
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Well, that being the case, let's hypothetically say that uploading game torrents in Australia, copyrighted game torrents might I add, was legal. So that means that you could get almost any game for free via Australian torrents in Norway, Switzerland or Canada.

"You are not smart! You are very un-smart!"
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Veron
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 15:50
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Quote: "The law says, that anyone in Switzerland can download anything they want, even if it is illegal, legally with no consequences. No one can track you doing so, because that would be illegal."


That WAS the law over there. Not any longer.

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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 17:32
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Quote: "That is basically the same thing in the Canada im pretty sure. You are allowed to download anything. Don't quote me on that."


I'm confident that just goes for music in Canada, but IANAL, don't quote me either.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 18:02 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2009 18:04
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Right, can we clarify WHAT law was it that they were trialed under?

I should think that the Pirate Bay knew what was on their website, surely they'd try to check as much content as possible? For example, FileFront, they managed to keep their arses covered - they let anybody put anything up there, but not anything illegal/copyrighted and they have a user agreement for that and try to keep an eye on their website and allow for material to be reported. Photobucket does it, so does MySpace, Mega Upload and even YouTube, they can't remove all of the illegal content or content that breaks their terms of service, but their policies combat it and they uphold them. If say YouTube suddenly said: "screw that, we'll let people do what the hell they'll like" no doubt people will jump on them, I reckon Viacom would be the first and other companies might join in.

Why did the Pirate bay not cover themselves like that? Surely if they looked at some of their links, they'd know that people were using their website illegally and distributing things illegally and by not covering their arses like that, I'm guessing that's where laws are broke. They'd have to be very naive to miss that.

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dark coder
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 18:18
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Quote: "they'd know that people were using their website illegally and distributing things illegally and by not covering their arses like that, I'm guessing that's where laws are broke. They'd have to be very naive to miss that."


Because it's not quite the same as people uploading illegal content to their site. They merely list and track torrents, torrents themselves are just files that(unless I'm mistaken) store a list of tracker URLs, a list of files in the archive, their sizes and other basic info. They themselves don't contain any illegal material so they weren't strictly in the wrong about what content was on their site. At best, you could compare it to them handling out a list of people to buy illegal drugs or whatever from.

I haven't read that much into it but I believe they were found guilty on aiding copyright infringement, which I guess technically correct.

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David R
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 18:59 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2009 19:00
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Quote: "I find it interesting that any of us defend TPB."


What I find interesting, is that so few here can objectively think about the rights/wrongs of the logic behind the trial without being personally offended (a la defending TPB = hating software, advocating piracy, not wanting anyone's products to sell etc.)

I always remember the phrase "You can't see the picture when you're inside the frame". You can't make reasonable or logical judgements if you're personally attached to something, so for something so 'flame bait prone' as TPB, I think it's really necessary to detach and think laterally, not to just assume "LOLOL THEYRE PIRATZ I HOPE THEY DIE LOLOLOL" and get offended when someone says otherwise.


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IanM
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 19:18
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I agree (the name-calling is a little disappointing too).

As far as I was aware, simply providing information without actually infringing was legal. If it wasn't then search engines would be sued all over the place - they aren't (even though there are more torrents available via google than TPB).

It's only when you move into the morality of the situation that you can have a view that says that it's either right or wrong.

From what I can see, the judgement made on this seems to have been made on the morals of the situation and not the law. If that's the case then I find that scary, as morals change depending on who you are talking to at the time, how good a mood they're in, their religion etc

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djmaster
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 19:49
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how do the companies all of suddenly have losses? what about 5 years ago? or even 2 years ago? noone complained,now all of suddenly the losses are gigantic,i say they just want more cash for their own

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Robin
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 19:52
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From what I understand, the case was for 'being assessories to copyright theft'...i.e. their intent, or whether they knew that what they were doing was illegal, is irrelevant to the verdict. Under this reasoning, I think google could also be tried for being assessories to copyright theft.

Does anyone know a good place to read about the full details of the case?

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Izzy545
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 19:56
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Robin> Once again, the difference is that Pirate Bay knew full well that they were hosting illegal torrents, and they couldn't care less. Any attempt to contact them to remove them would only result in public ridicule, according to their website.

Google on the other hand, would remove illegal links if contacted.

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Robin
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 20:31
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Quote: "Google on the other hand, would remove illegal links if contacted."

You're missing my point. My point is: when are google going to be contacted and asked not to index any website which links to illegal torrents? I'm not questioning the validity of TPB verdict, I'm just pointing out that it's setting a very open precedent, and now anybody/any search engine/any website linking to illegal torrents should be taken down/censored. I just dont know if that's at all practical/going to reduce piracy at all...

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 21:33
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What is more important? The details and dissected words of a law? Or.. the spirit of why certain laws exist in the first place?

Anti-piracy laws exist to protect companies from having their copyrighted materials used under conditions that they do not allow. If the letter-of-the law doesn't make certain approaches to piracy technically illegal, then what you have is a "loophole", not something that defeats the spirit of the law. Technology will keep changing to find new loopholes. The laws will keep changing at a slightly slower pace. As pirates look for new ways to get around laws, the laws will be broadened to cover things with a wider brush. The wider approach of the laws will then start to infringe on things that are not meant to be smacked with the spirit of the law. As usual, everyone suffers.

I think the approach of "why would I BUY the product when it is CRAP" is hystericaly hypocritical. The question *should* be, why would you USE a product that is crap. The cost is irrelevant. If something is overpriced or doesn't work right, then market demand will allow better, cheaper alternatives to be born. Unless, of coarse, everyone just pirates the overpriced crappy software. Then, there is no incentive for it to be improved by the company that makes it OR replaced by a competitor.

Ron


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David R
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2009 21:54 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2009 22:00
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Quote: "Unless, of coarse [sic], everyone just pirates the overpriced crappy software."


I don't think the crapness of the software itself is the issue - it's the crapness in the way it's sold/bundled. A really good example is Flash CS4. The package costs about ~£400 to buy - which is steep, but reasonable to some degree considering the scope of the application.

The 'crapness' begins however, when, for example, you want to profile the performance of an application made in Flash CS4. The profiler is a completely separate component, but it is bundled in such a way that you have to buy Flex Builder to use it. That's right - it isn't part of Flash. It's part of a completely separate product. So you pay ~£400 for Flash, and an additional ~£400 (for an app that you will use 1 feature of) just to profile what you made. That is the kind of crapness that is being complained about: not the quality of the software

EDIT: I'm not saying this justifies piracy - rather, faced with the decision, very few people are going to blow £200+ on an application to do one single action (profile a Flash CS4 app). I would really like to see the piracy rates on Adobe products actually, it must be through the roof.


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IanM
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2009 00:57
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Quote: "What is more important? The details and dissected words of a law? Or.. the spirit of why certain laws exist in the first place?"

Sure, the spirit of the law is important, but do you really want people making their own judgements on what that spirit is and when to prosecute it? That would be so easy for someone to do ... they're just doing the 'moral' thing after all, even if their moral compass points 180 degrees away from the morals of the people who wrote the law.

That's why it's important to have the laws written in such a way that they cover the spirit of the law in an unambiguous way, and then to follow the words as written. If the words don't manage to cover what was originally meant, that means the law-makers did a poor job in the first place or that the situation has changed, and it's up to the lawmakers to redraft the law to fit.

It's not up to the judges to make their judgements based on their own moral standards. 'I don't like that so I'll treat it as illegal' is the last thing I'd want to be hearing from a judge if I'm ever stood in front of one.

So in answer to your question ... I believe that the words are more important.

However, just to show my inconsistency (I'm human after all), if I find a law morally objectionable to me then I reserve the right to ignore it, and accept the risk of doing so. I'll let you know when I find one

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entomophobiac
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2009 10:12 Edited at: 23rd Apr 2009 10:16
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"Look at the guys, they don't get loads of cash from this, and it's just the media trying to say that they don't care about freedom of speech and all that, they're just saying they do it for themselves, which is pretty obviously false."

Probably one of the most stupid things I've ever read. Being Swedish myself, I know that the voices of a lot of pirates sound the same. Unfortunately, the "freedom fighting" of these gentlemen is leading to game developers such as CryTek, id and Epic -- previously PC-centric developers -- to abandon their PC exclusivity.

Lost revenues. Period.

Recently, Demigod, selling about 18,000 licenses, saw 120,000 logins to their server, crashing it and receiving bad reviews by Gamespot because of that unresponsiveness. Piracy.

Game developers need to survive. If they don't get paid, they don't make games -- simple.

What PirateBay has done is provide other people a service that gives access to strictly copyrighted materials. This is ILLEGAL. Furthermore, via commercials on the 'Bay itself, they've earned money while doing so. Ads on frequented websites can earn people a lot of money; it's how Google became Google, after all. This is also ILLEGAL.

Personally, I wish TPB had received billions of pounds/dollars/moolah in fines, flogging, public humiliation and also a face-to-face discussion with every single PC game developer on Earth that is beginning development on consoles due to the effects of piracy.

And we should call their moms.

"LEGALLY you are allowed to make backups of games for yourself."

If you're trying to say that this is about "legal" in any sense of the word, you're attacking a straw man. According to some esimate I saw, 99.4% of torrents are used for copyrighted material. And using an Internet-based torrent service for "backing up" seems an awful hazzle compared to a DVD image or local disk storage...
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Veron
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2009 10:36
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Quote: "Furthermore, via commercials on the 'Bay itself, they've earned money while doing so. Ads on frequented websites can earn people a lot of money; it's how Google became Google, after all. This is also ILLEGAL."


It's illegal to earn money from advertising now?

Quote: "If you're trying to say that this is about "legal" in any sense of the word, you're attacking a straw man. According to some esimate I saw, 99.4% of torrents are used for copyrighted material. And using an Internet-based torrent service for "backing up" seems an awful hazzle compared to a DVD image or local disk storage..."


Did you even bother to read what he was talking about? We were discussing making a hard copy, CD/DVD backup, for your personal use only. Not making a "backup" on to a torrent website.

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entomophobiac
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2009 11:50
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I saw how my phrasing came out, but I'm also sure that you know exactly what I meant and simply chose to nitpick for purposes of discussion.

The consensus is that they've earned ad money from providing links to illegal copies of copyrighted material, not that advertising in itself is illegal.
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Veron
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2009 12:26
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Quote: "I saw how my phrasing came out, but I'm also sure that you know exactly what I meant and simply chose to nitpick for purposes of discussion."


No, I really have no idea what you mean. Advertising is advertising, and it's up to the person who has their ads on their site whether they want them displayed alongside torrents or not. There is no law which says advertising can not be used alongside torrents, so it's simply the preference of the owner of the adverts themselves.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you could be speaking on moral grounds as well, i.e, earning money from something such as torrents, rather than something 100% legit. Not saying you are talking about advertising on moral grounds, but if you are, it's a pretty stupid thing to talk about.

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Chris K
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2009 12:36
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@ Ian M

But, our legal system is Common Law (as is the US); so most of the time there AREN'T laws actually written down and it IS just up to the judge to make a sensible decision, based on what judges of higher rank have done before (the highest court being the House of Lords).

Most European countries however, have Civil Law where there are actually statutes written down, and it is easier to weasel out of things on technicalities, as TPB are hoping to do.

---

If this case was in the UK, then the judge would make a call and that would become precedent for everyone below him in the heirachy. TPB's lawyers would hope to convince him to effectively write a new law by letting them off - this would not happen as the owners clearly had malicious intent and were blatant and unapologetic about their actions.

Hopefully one day there will be a more mature, less annoying site that is honestly commited to the free distribution of data, or information; a site that responds sensibly to requests to remove illegal material (even if this is just a polite email that explains the logistical difficulties of monitoring uploads, and how it is contrary to the operators beliefs) - not a site that laughs in the face of people who feel robbed.

How do smug little children like TPB help people like me who dream of a fair system where software and media is freely distributed?

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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dark coder
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2009 16:39
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Quote: "What PirateBay has done is provide other people a service that gives access to strictly copyrighted materials."


No, they have torrents that point to legal data too. If you don't want us to 'nitpick' your argument then write that you mean the first time around. If we guess what you actually meant to write incorrectly then that would be a straw man on our part.

I don't think it's quite so simple to say what they're doing is plain ILLEGAL, because strictly speaking they aren't hosting any illegal content. What if I make a comparison to some other crime: A fictitious store called The Slaughter Bay exists whose sole purpose is to sell weapons, such as: knives, axes, chainsaws etc(all legal items). Assuming they break no laws upon their sale(i.e. no selling to minors) then are they really responsible for aiding killings or crimes if these weapons are then used in crimes or to kill people? Now clearly as they are called The Slaughter Bay and make no effort to do background checks on customers, their intent is that these weapons be used for mainly illegal activities. But does that mean the owners should be jailed? In my opinion if this store is really a problem then the laws regarding the sale of said weapons should be changed, jailing the owners won't really fix the problem because you can easily get weapons elsewhere.

I agree that piracy is bad in most cases, and for game developers releasing only/mainly single player PC games it's a huge deterrent. I just think going after the owners of TPB is the wrong way to fix the problem, going after them won't get TPB shut down and even if they manage that then another similar site will just spring up in another country with more lenient laws.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2009 18:38
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Quote: "Quote: "they'd know that people were using their website illegally and distributing things illegally and by not covering their arses like that, I'm guessing that's where laws are broke. They'd have to be very naive to miss that."

Because it's not quite the same as people uploading illegal content to their site. They merely list and track torrents, torrents themselves are just files that(unless I'm mistaken) store a list of tracker URLs, a list of files in the archive, their sizes and other basic info. They themselves don't contain any illegal material so they weren't strictly in the wrong about what content was on their site. At best, you could compare it to them handling out a list of people to buy illegal drugs or whatever from.

I haven't read that much into it but I believe they were found guilty on aiding copyright infringement, which I guess technically correct."



It's not the same, no, but either way what they did was wrong and it would seem illegal, as for whether the charges were just? It could be questionable, then 1 year in prison is perhaps fair, but the masses they're charge for is perhaps too much, but those charging him disagree of course.

If they had legal intention then they could have covered their arses and avoided 'aiding' it or however the law describes itself.

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IanM
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2009 19:25
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This is what I meant when I said
Quote: "From what I can see, the judgement made on this seems to have been made on the morals of the situation and not the law. If that's the case then I find that scary, as morals change depending on who you are talking to at the time, how good a mood they're in, their religion etc"


I should also have added to that '... and affiliations'.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2009/apr/23/pirate-bay-piracy

I don't know whether or not the Judge acted on his affiliations, but that fact doesn't reflect well on the judgement at all, whether you think the result was right or wrong.

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David R
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2009 19:37
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Indeed, that judge seems to have rather a big problem with conflict of interests


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2009 20:22
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This is reminiscant to me of Al Capone's case. He couldn't be nailed for illegally making and selling beer so in the end he got a long sentence for tax evasion, not because tax evasion merits such a sentence but because of his reputation.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2009 20:47
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I enjoy reading about how everyone always rages against the giant evil corporations and how they suck the blood of average hard working people but if they had the opportunity to get in as an executive in one of these companies they would do it in a second and not look back.
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Veron
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2009 21:40
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I suggest that everyone here torrent/download/somehow obtain a copy of the "Steal This Film" movies, both parts 1 and 2. They're extremely informative, and it reveals a lot about what the US Government did to try and force Sweden to take action and shut TPB down. Things such as the WTO threats on Sweden if they didn't act are also mentioned.

TPB also reaffirm why they set the site up in the first place, so I think the movies are a must-see.

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David R
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2009 22:30
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Quote: "but if they had the opportunity to get in as an executive in one of these companies they would do it in a second and not look back."


Don't judge everyone by your own standards


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puppyofkosh
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2009 22:35
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Quote: "Steal This Film"

That was indeed a very informative video.
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 01:43
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Quote: "Don't judge everyone by your own standards"


Right, don't kid yourself.
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 02:14
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Megaton, I think you'll find people only get in those positions by exploiting others to reach the top.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 02:23
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I can't say that I'm more offended by CEOs that exploit people vs pirates. Pirates exploit people as well.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 02:53 Edited at: 24th Apr 2009 02:55
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Look up Sir Fred Goodwin, that might change your opinion.

Greedy fool worked at the Royal Bank of Scotland, slowly driving it into debt to the tune of 33 billion pounds apparently, before getting off scot (/pun) free with £650000 a year.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7667214.stm

I doubt even the whole of Pirate Bay's impact can even be blown out of proportion that much.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 03:06
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I don't see how the two are similar. Goodwin appears incompetent, not a thief.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 03:10
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Where is this £650000 a year coming from now, do you think, now the bank is running on public money?

Oh, the public.

If that's not theft I don't know what is. People pleaded with him not to be so damned greedy. All he said was "no".

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Zeldar
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 03:48
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Pirate Bay Judge Accused of Bias, Calls for a Retrial
http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?p=14802821#post14802821
Note: Some offensive material in forum link.

Signed, Zeldar
.....what?
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xplosys
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 03:53
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As if there's not enough opinion and arguing on this forum. LOL

Best.

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n008
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 05:07 Edited at: 24th Apr 2009 05:08
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Piracy is wrong, yeah, but someone who's downloaded something illegally probably wasn't going to buy it anyway, so how can it be counted as a lost sale? There's no way to quantify how many people would have bought the software they torrented; it would pretty much be torrent it or go without it for most of those people.

"I have faith, that I shall win the race, even though I have no legs, and am tied to a tree." ~Mark75
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xplosys
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 05:22
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I wonder how that relates to a brick and mortar store? If you shoplift a CD and you weren't going to buy it anyway then it's not a lost sale. I realize that there is a tangible item in this example, and there is a loss of stock, but I'm talking about the idea that it's OK to steal because you weren't going to buy it anyway.

It seems like the "long distance" of the internet takes away all the anxiety of stealing. It's like your not really doing it if no one can see you.

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fpsFREE - Contact Me
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Jeku
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Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 24th Apr 2009 08:19
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Quote: "Megaton, I think you'll find people only get in those positions by exploiting others to reach the top."


So all executives have only got their position from exploiting people? Are you sure about that

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