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Geek Culture / Religion (Satanism for me) *NO PRERSONAL ATTACKS HERE*

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Guhill The friendly one
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 15:08
Guess what, my friend gave me a fossilized sharktooth from the Great flood.

(I said that partially to calm everone down on trying to figure out the secret of life)

Without hating, this world would be perfect.
Manticore Night
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 15:09
All that will do is get this locked.

It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)
Guhill The friendly one
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 15:12
@Manticore : Life's a joke. OK, how 'bout this. What if I said I work for the CIA and the Americans are planning to bomb Canada tomorrow near the area you live in. It doesn't matter to you since life's a joke right? It's funny that my 3 year old cousin died in a car crash huh? That's all just a joke to you? Hey, why don't I go on a killing spree. I won't get in trouble, they'll all just laugh at me for doing something hilarious huh?

Without hating, this world would be perfect.
Dave J
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 15:24
Quote: "Newton's laws of gravity."


That hasn't been ultimately proven, it just hasn't been disproven. Like I said, it's IMPOSSIBLE to prove anything to be 100% correct unless a god himself (if he exists) comes down and says, "Yes, that is right".


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
TheAbomb12
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 15:27
Quote: "That hasn't been ultimately proven, it just hasn't been disproven. Like I said, it's IMPOSSIBLE to prove anything to be 100% correct unless a god himself (if he exists) comes down and says, "Yes, that is right"."


and by the same logic I can say that your statement about not being able to prove anything cannot be proved...

Amist the Blue Skies...
Guhill The friendly one
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 15:33
...................

Nothing can be proved, nothing can be disproved. We can only argue until the day we die.

Without hating, this world would be perfect.
Dave J
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 16:49
Quote: "and by the same logic I can say that your statement about not being able to prove anything cannot be proved..."


I never said you cannot prove anything, I just said you cannot prove things like how the world works, who created the universe, etc. We didn't create it, so we can't prove how it works. Things can be proven though, for instance, I'm typing on a computer, that can be proven because Human beings created computers, they defined what they are, and as such, it can be proven.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
TheAbomb12
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 17:40
Quote: "Like I said, it's IMPOSSIBLE to prove anything to be 100% correct "


Amist the Blue Skies...
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 17:42
Oki, erm a few things for ppl to mull over:

Lynx: Read the bible, your idea of it is well out or sync. You'd be suprised at just what it actually says, although some people will tell you to read the 'New English Translation'; i'd suggest a direct hebrew translation. You'll learn more.

- Christianity being invented by the Romans
somehow I doubt it considering the oldest bible found is in Hebrew.

- There being no evidence for the Evolution Theory?
Again this is doubtable, although i've seen a number of books on this subject for and against. Science leads me to believe that although Darwins exact theory is incorrect, the theorics behind it are true.
This has more to do with speicies abilities to adapt to new enviornments when forced to, whilst no doubt remains Apes and Human spawned from the same genetical background; we've both evolved under very different patterns.
For some reason the dominant 3 Human Breeds have adapted into a single compatible Breed, whilst still not 100% compatible; we are closer than any Ape family is to another.
(As a Biogenetist Kain no doubt you'll have covered DNA and Genetical similarities as well as an environmental effects on speicies.)

As for Ceberus, the name is Greek... he is defined in 3 distinct myths/ Greek, Bible, Hindu.
He doesn't posess a name in the Bible, mearly known as the Keeper Beast, the ties in the different religions alone bring me to a number of conclusions.

One of which is that they're all true. The Bible doesn't dispute magic exists, infact Tower of Babylon quite clearly shows there are some supernatural beliefs there. They are however forbidden to be used either the White or Black arts.
Other religions again are not disputed, God never says he is the only god there is... simply that he is the true god to follow.

There is alot more behind the scenes of what the religions will skim for you to simply believe in black or white.

I am extremely scientific, and I do believe scientifically there is a way to prove and disprove things; at the same time I am also quiet religious. You can be both, without a conflict of interests.
Every day a scientist or hell even a programmer will do something and must have a hope/belief it will work without fully knowing the outcome, without that strife to possible be wrong; or be smug in being right ... there would be no advances in science.

As for the Bible being disproven, although technically speaking there are a number of things which contradict themselves when taken out of context (as in how some people interpret what is written and said). It has yet to be proven that any of the Bible is wrong or ficticous.
and I believe there is still a $200,000,000 chequé from the United States Government that is held within New York, that would seem to backup this point.

If you think you can disprove it i'm sure the $200million is still up for grabs; most of you are good with google, your welcome to search for the appropriot site.

Dave J
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 17:45
TheAbomb12, you took that completely out of context.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Rob K
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 17:50 Edited at: 11th Jul 2004 18:03
Hi Kain,

"Darwin's Black Box" relies mostly on the idea of irreducible complexity. Do some searches on that and you'll find some effective countering against his assertions:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe/review.html

Quote: "But I do have to admit, it is fun laughing at faggots. Besides, homosexuality is a sin in my religion anyway, so, I figure I'm doing a good deed."


Using religion as an excuse for intolerance and ignorance could never be described as a "good deed"

Quote: " But it is this same lack of understanding that also puts the doubt of religions in us"


In many countries religion was invented for this very reason, to provide a reason for the social hierarchy, and keep the peasants content.


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 17:58
Quote: "Woah, lotta personal attacks in this thread. Some people seriously need to chill out and accept that other people can have different views than they do (Raven, Epo). Remember guys, you don't convince anybody by attacking them..."


You seem to have me confused with a Devout Christian//
I'm not some brain dead moron who has had my free will sucked out of me by the bible. It's annoying how those kinds of Christian make up 90% of the religion now, these are the ones that start damn wars because people can't be convinced.

Personally I stand on the ground where you can believe what the hell you like provided you don't screw around with other peoples lives doing it.
Devout Christians vexx me so damn much!!

The Bible is a guide, as was said before; It's not Strict RULES you must follow or be smited, they're guidelines on how to be a good person. Somewhere along the translation that was forgotten.

AlecM
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 18:00
Kain, the author of “Darwin's black box” completely ignored that fact that mutations occur and can persist in a gene pool with no selective advantage. This is especially true when the gene pool is small enough. These mutations do NOT have to occur simultaneously.

Another point here, Humans didn't descend from apes, we do however share a common ancestor. There is a difference and it is an important one. If anyone believes in the existence of DNA then you cannot ignore evolution. They go hand in hand, there is no way around it. Natural selection is simply a process of random events over long lengths of time. Nothing more.

I don't even know why I'm arguing this, its not like you can convince anyone of the obvious truth if they are trying not to see it. Thats arrogant of me but there is already plenty of that in this thread.


Oh, and Kain. I know lots of atheists, but I don't know a single one who doesn't believe in evolution. And no, a nihilist is not an atheist


Buy it
Rob K
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 18:01
Raven, remember that your views are opinions not fact, and that others are allowed to disagree.

Keep any personal stuff to a minimum guys, or the thread will be locked.


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Dave J
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 18:03
Quote: "I don't even know why I'm arguing this, its not like you can convince anyone of the obvious truth if they are trying not to see it. Thats arrogant of me but there is already plenty of that in this thread."


Yeah, I know what you mean lol.


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Wiggett
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 18:31
actually it was only a few months ago i started believing in god, i mean really, if you can't believe in yourself, you will get no where in life.

OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 18:47
Indeed - I worship myself... Its knows as Nicholasism...


Are you sensitive enough?
Arkheii
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 19:20
God, Satan, Science, all bs to me. I'm pretty much an atheist but I'd rather say "No preferred religion" in my college application form. But atheist sums it up almost the same.

Religion and science are "sciences" just the same. Our crazy brains flipped a few switches and mixed some chemicals in the brain to produce those beliefs. So far, to me, neither science nor religion (any of them) are true. Christianity builds from the bible, Satanism builds from fallacies in the bible, and Science has its share of theories which haven't really been proven.

I say, go with what works. You'd know that you shouldn't kill people even without reading the bible. We know that vectors are cool and useful in games. Just take the important bits of both worlds and scrap the ideas that are questionable. And most importantly, don't think about how the universe came to be. Instead, concern yourself about how it's going to end.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 19:32
Quote: "Raven, remember that your views are opinions not fact, and that others are allowed to disagree."


They can disagree all they want... i don't care; the only point i was making is misinterpretation and those who see it as set in stone facts are the ones are a danger.

If you want to go around believeing the sky is green and the sea is pink; fine, but as soon as you step into a public place and demand that someone else should... that is when i have a problem with it.

And that is exactly what i've been trying to say.
Sure someone else can see the bible differently, and honestly fine... Christianity is suppose to be acceptance of people though; not forcing them to be a pod person of your religion.

GCEclipse
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 20:26
Quote: "If you want to go around believeing the sky is green and the sea is pink; fine, but as soon as you step into a public place and demand that someone else should... that is when i have a problem with it."


Well put. I totally agree.


I find christianity a very interesting religion, because at the point of its conception there were 2 branches - literalism and gnosticism.

The viewpoint of the Gnostics is that the bible is not literal truth, more an allegorical tale, a metaphor that illustrates the right way to live.

There were some inner mysteries that you bacame party to if you'd progressed enough in the religion.

Gnosticism was wiped out by the literalists.

The literalists believe the bible is the literal truth and are the founders of the roman catholic church.

Its just an interesting point.


Darwin did not set out to disprove the existence of God - in fact, he believed the theories of evolution vindicated his faith in the existence of God. This is all over his writing, and many times he refers to God in this books and theories.

All I'm saying is believing in the concept of evolution is not mutually exclusive from believing in the existence of god.

flibX0r
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 20:55
Would anyone like to join my religion? Its called Poohbahism. Its just like aetheism but we get tax breaks on beer and Skittles. Who wants to join?

Dave J
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 20:58
Me.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
flibX0r
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 21:07
Yay! That makes 6 people now.

Dave J
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 21:11 Edited at: 11th Jul 2004 21:29
For the Poohbah!


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flibX0r
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 21:16
All hail the mighty Poobah, for he hath giveth us teh beer and Skittles

HZence
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 21:27
Quote: "But I do have to admit, it is fun laughing at faggots. Besides, homosexuality is a sin in my religion anyway, so, I figure I'm doing a good deed."


Well I certainly hope that was sarcasm as in your religion, you're not supposed to judge.

Seems to me however, nearly all followers do it anyway.


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Van B
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 21:31
Another 2 here.


Van-B


Muhahahahaha.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 22:01
i'd join cause the perks sound awesome... if only it wasn't for that unfortunate name.
you can't really say your a Poohbahist in polite conversation.

@Van: dude your new sig ROCKS!

flibX0r
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 22:31
Muhahahahaha! My religion is growing! Soon we shall over throw TCA in taking over the world. (Sorry I ripped off your sig Van. I agree with raven, its cool)

Dave J
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 22:42
I saw it, I thought it was ok, then I spent a while trying to figure out which was the start and which was the end of the animation.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Neil19533
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 22:53
holy books are based on real events, this is a form of mind control. if you are told loads of facts and lie when you prove a few of your truthes to be true then people will belive the lie.

i think the holy books are a way that people tried to explaine everything, and how to peacefully live.

and the theroy of evolution as i know it is a living thing will adapt to its surroundings which is very much true. (fish have gills and humans have lungs)

Any spelling mistakes are totally In tensional.
Richard Davey
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 23:48
Humans destroy, ruin, consume, infect, pollute, desecrate, cause offense, kill each other, abuse, torture, lie, steal, etc etc etc - every single minute of every single day.

We fail to accept those that are different, we oppress or argue with those who disgree with our views (this thread being a prime example) and to cope with it all we hide behind things: whether they be "spells and magik" [sic] or plain-faced denial that anything could possibly exist because it "doesn't make scientific sense". They're all shields, they're all avoiding the issues or deflecting them away because we don't like the look of them compared to what we think.

[ To say we descended from monkies is ludicrous - they lead far more civilised lives than we ever will ]

It is inbred, conditioned from within us by the societies in which we live, prejudices and opinions passively formed from an early age. Some of us change views with age (i.e. "I used to be a X, but now I think it's silly") but it's only because of what we see going on in the world around us (i.e. we think what is the point?!), or because of something we've read or been influenced by.

To have faith in something is classed as having "no free will" but ironically it takes far more willpower to sustain that belief than the opposite does.

All of these choices, opinions and passions are what define us as being human, they are what make us unique. The problem is when this uniqueness is turned into a barrier and intollerance against others, as we're seeing here.

Do I believe that the original posters "spell" caused girls to act any differently to him? If you look at the words / ingrediants used then of course not, but if you look at the change it made within his mind then you'll see that he believed it did and therefore it happened, which will manifest itself in the real world.

Do I believe that praying to God will alter the outcome of a given situation? Yes, but not because I believe there is an all-powerful being out there that will wave a mystic wand, but because I believe that the act of praying is conditioning your mind, the God figure is something to focus on .. focusing your thoughts, disassociating yourself in a way, and that it is the power in your mind: your willpower, that either causes the change or causes you to see the outcome in a different way.

I guess you could call it the "power within" (although it sounds quite hippy-ish) that is the true centre of each of us. It is scientifically un-chartered (and ever will be) and for some people they don't like that - they don't like "untangible" things, yet these people have emotions. They feel sad, they feel happy, these are untangible things also, but things they control. No-one can make you un-happy, only you can make yourself un-happy by reacting to those around you. It's really the same thing.

For most of us (I will conceed that there are handicapped people for whom they were born or have lost the ability to control their thoughts) - you control your environment in your mind, that is where we all truly live. If we were all at peace there, then there would be far less issues in the world than there are today. But that will never be the cause because no two peoples idea of "peace" are the same.

Catch 22 or what?

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
Tomy
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Posted: 11th Jul 2004 23:51
Quote: "Newton's laws of gravity.

this is what you look like right now. Speechless.
"


Actually it has been disproven by Niels Bohr (German chemist).
He's the author of the quantumn physics, which clearly say NOTHING in physics is a 100% sure!
You can only calculate a probability that something's gonna happen.


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Eric T
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Posted: 12th Jul 2004 00:37
Here's my thoughts on it.

An all seeing, all knowing person, all controlling who created everything around us. Something for people to Idolize, Fear, and love. I find that crap just a bit hard to belive. If he is all controlling why dosen't he control are us aethiests to belive in him? My belief is there is no god.

I think he is an Ideal created by whoever the hell created him. People can't live in anarchy. They need someone to control them. Well why not come up with this little story about a all powerful being, who will strike you down where you stand if you disobey him (which i am still waiting for, oh all mighty smiting smiter).

Just to add to this fun, Christian based Religions have a heaven and a hell. In heaven, supposedlly you are greeted with love, and in hell greeted with hatred and pain. You have to be good in life to goto heaven. bad in life to goto hell.

Where in the f*ck do you think this came up? Hmmm let see, how do we control people more. Well if we tell them that they will be eternaly getting the f*ck kicked outta them in A place called hell, and we tell them if they are good the will be treated like f*cking kings, maybe they will be good outstanding citizens. Just to add to this fun, lets have a Jewish guy give us the 10 commandments that all christains shall follow. And tell them if they break them, they are going to hell.

Does it work? Of course it does. It mite be the biggest load of horse sh*t, but it works. If you really take the number of Christians in the world, and divide it by the number of crimes that only the christians commit, you'd see that it works.

Then we have Jesus, walked on water, water into wine (damn i would invite this bastard to my party), all these miracles. Only one problem, where is the proof that it ever happened. We are all aware that the monks when translating the bible, fictionalized it, or messed up the translations so bad, the bible isn't even trustable any more. We have basicly lost track of the original bible.

So, how can we prove jesus did all that stuff. Well we can't look at any survalence tapes. No camera's back then. Can't go by word of mouth unless 2000 yr old ground can talk. How can we even prove that Mary was even a virgin, and not knocked up by Joseph after a long drunkin night at club bangladesh?

What i'm trying to say is we can't. Its good that you can belive in it, but untill some of us see some proof that this "God" exists, there is nothing. Word of mouth can be strong, but not that strong.

(On a side note, I would like to point out, how ironic it is that my middle name is "Christian" and that I was born on Dec 25)

Quote: "Would anyone like to join my religion? Its called Poohbahism. Its just like aetheism but we get tax breaks on beer and Skittles. Who wants to join?
"


Damn, sign me up... skittle's n beer. Time for some of that "SkittleBrau".

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Kain
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Posted: 12th Jul 2004 01:29
Quote: "Hi Kain,

"Darwin's Black Box" relies mostly on the idea of irreducible complexity. Do some searches on that and you'll find some effective countering against his assertions:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe/review.html"


Well I've read some of that so far and I'm struck that the author of it is using a lot of the same things he faults the book for. His counter example of a different mouse trap is obviously flawed. He says he can build a simpler mouse trap, but to do so he needs to add something else (staples). So he hasn't reduced the complexity of the trap, only changed it. The requirements the author of the book makes for life are logicaly irreducible. It has to reproduce itself at some point, that is just common sense. It has to be somehow separated from the outside environment, or it would drift away.

Evolution I feel has some logic to it, but the spontanious formation of a cell does not.


Quote: "I mean does it really matter?"


I don't see how anyone can argue that. No matter what you want to believe there is only one real truth about how we came to be. Maybe its the evolutionists, maybe its the muslims, but SOMEONE has to be right or no one is, in which case the truth is out there but no one has it yet. The point is, it does matter. Because if you or I are wrong then we could be in for an unpleasant surprise on the other end.

As I always say to my athiest friends: If you're right and I'm wrong, I'll never know. But if I'm right and you're wrong, you are sure going to find out.

IanM
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Posted: 12th Jul 2004 02:13
So join your religion 'just in case'?

Ach, codswallop. I will accept no god just on someones say-so or on a just in case scenario.

If you do turn out to be right, and I am not accepted by god because of that in some kind of afterlife, then I will still have something he does not - Principals. A god who would condemn me on the basis of belief or non-belief deserves no-ones worship.

I wish people would just let others be. All this 'believe what I believe or else' crap gets right up my left nostril.

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zenassem
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Posted: 12th Jul 2004 02:18
Newtonian physics(gravity) only holds true, in our ability to observe the behavior of bodies which are relative to the world we live in, and our perceptions suffer from a poor SYNC RATE. They don't hold when talking about extremely large celestial bodies like Universes nor do they hold when discussing bodies at the atomic/quark level --as well as when bodies approach speeds that are hard for us to process like the speed of light or approaching the speed of light.

~zen


IanM
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Posted: 12th Jul 2004 03:54
To those whos posts I have just deleted:

If you want to take part in this discussion, keep it on an adult level.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Jul 2004 04:16
Quote: "Evolution I feel has some logic to it, but the spontanious formation of a cell does not"


Kain, explain to me what happens within the body when a cell becomes cancerous?

The Cell sponstanously mutates, simply because something within the dna is rewritten.
Think about it like this... DNA = ASM, as such the body is written from ASM which the body JIT Compiles into Cells.

A Cancer will basically take the DNA and mess around with it producing a response, in all essence it is like the computer virus win32.cygwin ... this virus takes an exe file and bloats it to 1MB, no matter it's original size.
Well when you imagine the cancer cell basically rather than simply bloating by a given ammount it sets and INC BYTE command to reproduce in a given time frame, this causing it to continue to grow until it crashes.

Cells are identical to programs in a respect they are created on DNA and they also end... durnig the process taking energy from the system (which is created from standard hardware).

Now the idea of spontanus Cell mutation suddenly doesn't seem so far fetched when you consider that the Cancer virus does this very thing, as we still aren't sure how exactly DNA is controlled to make sure a program keeps running with the Intelligence; speculation is all that can me made, but it is considered that this Intelligence is what allows us to adapt to environments, and if you think about this even further the bodies need to adapt could theoretically also control the DNA rewriting to suit the new environment... as such this means your body has full Administration control over your core code.

ergo, the possibility is there it could spontaniously evolve *if* it subconciously saw a need to. For example if an ice age happened tomorrow it is *theoretically* possible your body will realise on the concious level there is no hope of this becomming warmer again, once that is realised your subconcious would kick in and start to grow your hair faster.
We can actually prove this to an extent with the fact that in colder times of the year peoples hair grows faster than in the summer, although this doesn't give conclusive proof it would suggest a correlation between the Concious, SubConcious and Genetic Operation of the body.

It's kinda fascinating stuff when you get down to it, but then biology was never my major subject so there are alot of blanks for me. When learning things I often find that looking for a similar pattern in things which are common to me tend to help me understand better. Most thing in nature are repeating patterns but on higher levels, stumped if i know the way to technically alter these but i can atleast understand the theory behind them.

Quote: "Actually it has been disproven by Niels Bohr (German chemist).
He's the author of the quantumn physics, which clearly say NOTHING in physics is a 100% sure!
You can only calculate a probability that something's gonna happen."


A Scientist believes one thing, everything is subject to change. When you reach a 'constant' it is never called 100% accurate; for the simple reason that there are always unexplained 'exceptions'.

Hense the saying "there is always an exception to the rule".
Newtons Laws of Motion (3rd Law Gravity) is right 99.9% of the time. As far as a scientist is concerned this lets you calculate for margins of possible error but is considered still a constant, with exceptions. (hense correct)
Alot of Quantum Physics is actually pure theoretics, simply because we cannot yet physically interact with events on the level we deal with.

Sure you can measure atoms but whenever you see them through an electro-microscope it is because you have hit it with a particle, thus caused motion and captured it on film.
It is a bit like poking someone with a stick from far away takign a picture and studying it later... you impression on them will just be this angry person ripping your camera from the wall, as your not seeing them at rest.

for every day science you can consider newton's law as well law, they have yet to really be disproven. for the Quantum level science and even further, the laws apply less because we have no way of accurately measuring things; thus we have to use them to make predictions (and we can't actually test to see if we're right unless on a large scale), even still these predictions appear to hold true again 99.9% of the time.

As for the religion, kinda agree with Rich's comments.
and yes it is sad that most Christians now are Literary (Catholic/Protestant) variety. Ho hum. I true do see the Bible as a history book though, perhaps not 100% accurate (i could disput ALOT of the section with the egyptians, as does my lass; as i have a very strong passion for the eygptian and mayan cultures, although the mayan's would've taken slaves the egyptians never did; Outsiders were simply banned from the state. The reason being that they did not allow 'heathans' into thier society, so unless you praised to Ra you were not allowed in egypt. Trade was done on the boarder towns, gold was 'aquired' by the Pharoh by taking his army and 'asking' for them to pay him, it wasn't until the whole Tutkahmun problems that outsiders were given access to the land; this was all because of the internal strife when Tut's dad basically told the egyptians they could only praise Ra and no other gods as there was only one true god ::cough:: i'd love to decypher alot of the writing from around his tomb on that subject actually, but will have to wait until I can next afford to go to egypt )
But on the whole major events are in-tact in the bible and coincide with other races accounts.

As such you find there are also so many underlining texts conserning the deity society and the workings on them in cross overs that either there was a 6,000 year old book club everyone went to... or there is some truth behind the stories.

all open to interpretation but very interesting non-the-less

Jimmy
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Posted: 12th Jul 2004 04:29 Edited at: 12th Jul 2004 04:50
Heh, I deleted my random post because I decided to actually read some of this thread and would just like to say I'm glad i'm not most of you, especially Ozzum and the others like him. No happiness can be gained from such a life. As far as I'm concerned it's taking the easy way out, you'll get yours in the end and we'll all be sorry i'm sure.

Most of you just seem lost, no sense of what you're even doing here. I , for one, know why I'm here and everyone else. I won't discuss here, because y'all are more stubborn than a horse being pushed into a pool of exploding gerbils, but I can tell you that practicing every sin for gratification is no way to live and hope that maybe when you're older you'll figure it out, if you're not in jail.

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Rage_Matrix
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Posted: 12th Jul 2004 05:05
Quote: "First off, I'm a Satanist, which is just like Aethism pretty much.
We worship no God (I'll get to this in a moment), we don't make sacrifices (that's what idiots who claim to be Satanists do, the idea was originally thought out by the Spanish Inquisition, get to that a little later), we use magick, etc. Why did we choose the name Satanist then?"


Betcha *any* money you're a teenager.

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Jimmy
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Posted: 12th Jul 2004 05:33
I *believe* he's 14, but I may be thinking of someone else.

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Dgamer
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Posted: 12th Jul 2004 05:36 Edited at: 12th Jul 2004 05:42
Edit: Took my post out...

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HZence
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Posted: 12th Jul 2004 06:10
Rich, that was such an intelligent post. I don't necessarily agree with everything you had to say, but I'd like to comment on afew things said. Well...maybe, everything you said.

Quote: "Humans destroy, ruin, consume, infect, pollute, desecrate, cause offense, kill each other, abuse, torture, lie, steal, etc etc etc - every single minute of every single day."


True.

Quote: "We fail to accept those that are different, we oppress or argue with those who disgree with our views (this thread being a prime example) and to cope with it all we hide behind things: whether they be "spells and magik" [sic] or plain-faced denial that anything could possibly exist because it "doesn't make scientific sense". They're all shields, they're all avoiding the issues or deflecting them away because we don't like the look of them compared to what we think."


You left out faith, and I presume I know why (correct me if I'm wrong): because of your own faith. It seems to me that you're saying everyone is hiding behind beliefs, logic, and credibility, but you fail to mention those who have any sort of faith because, I don't know, perhaps you feel that they don't fall into the category?

Just a thought.

Quote: "To say we descended from monkies is ludicrous - they lead far more civilised lives than we ever will "


How witty...

Quote: "It is inbred, conditioned from within us by the societies in which we live, prejudices and opinions passively formed from an early age. Some of us change views with age (i.e. "I used to be a X, but now I think it's silly") but it's only because of what we see going on in the world around us (i.e. we think what is the point?!), or because of something we've read or been influenced by."


Basic psychology, really. Our beliefs often branch from the beliefs our ancestors, but may be altered because of mob mentality or - dare I say it - logic.

Quote: "To have faith in something is classed as having "no free will""


I'm sorry, either I'm misinterpreting that comment or it just isn't making sense to me. What faith are you referring to?
According to Christianity, we must have faith in God. God also gave us free will. That's sort of contradictory to your statement.

Quote: "but ironically it takes far more willpower to sustain that belief than the opposite does."


That's seems to be an opinion to me. In order to know that's true, you'd have to know how nearly every human being maintains their faith, and how often they struggle with it.

Quote: "Do I believe that praying to God will alter the outcome of a given situation? Yes, but not because I believe there is an all-powerful being out there that will wave a mystic wand, but because I believe that the act of praying is conditioning your mind, the God figure is something to focus on .. focusing your thoughts, disassociating yourself in a way, and that it is the power in your mind: your willpower, that either causes the change or causes you to see the outcome in a different way."


I like that thought. It's almost anti-Christian, too.

Quote: "and for some people they don't like that - they don't like "untangible" things, yet these people have emotions. They feel sad, they feel happy, these are untangible things also, but things they control."


Ah, yes, the "emotion arguement."

I suppose now I'm supposed to fight back with my "emotions are merely chemical reactions" arguement.

On the other hand, I've had that conversation all too many times and every single time it comes down to opinion from both sides. So I won't go there.

Quote: "If we were all at peace there, then there would be far less issues in the world than there are today. But that will never be the cause because no two peoples idea of "peace" are the same."


Agreed.

Quote: "Catch 22 or what?"


Definitely not "or what." As agnostic, Catch 22 is my rule of thumb.


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Kain
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Posted: 12th Jul 2004 06:26
Quote: "Quote: "Evolution I feel has some logic to it, but the spontanious formation of a cell does not"

Kain, explain to me what happens within the body when a cell becomes cancerous?"


Reread the quote of mine. I said spontanious FORMATION, not mutation. I am talking about there being no life at all, and then suddenly a cell appearing out of random chance. That is VERY different from mutations of a pre-existing cell. Of course things mutate, and I do believe in evolution within a species. There is a lot of genetic variability built in for that to happen.


Interesting that you mention your lack of knowledge about the subject. It is a shame that time doesn't permit more people to study the sciences and make up their own mind, but its a fact of life. Everone is forced to accept someone else's conclusion, one way or the other. The science the public gets is generaly dumbed down and almost certainly biased.

Part of the reason I majored in biology and biochemistry was because I wanted to the ability to make up my own mind about things as important as this.

Kain
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Posted: 12th Jul 2004 06:29
Quote: "According to Christianity, we must have faith in God. God also gave us free will. That's sort of contradictory to your statement."


No its not really. According to christianity you are givin the choice between living your life on earth however you please and spending eternity without god or living your life by its set of guidelines and spending eternity with god. That is your free will. Make sure you understand the tenents of a faith before you criticize them.

Phaelax
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Posted: 12th Jul 2004 06:44
[href]I'm a Satanist, which is just like Aethism pretty much[/href]

Not really. I'm a complete aethiest.(was baptized christian though ) And the whole point of aethism is that you believe in absolutely no supreme being, including satan. And technically, you can't really believe in satan without believing a God exists as well.


Err, I read the rest of your post now. So basically, satanism means you do what you want? I guess that is similar to aethism.

"eureka" - Archimedes
Killswitch
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Posted: 12th Jul 2004 06:44
Tomy

Quote: " maybe i'll become a Buddhist or whatever."


Your reilgious reasoning is soo good!

As for evolution, how do you explain Giant mammels (i.e. giant sloth) becoming regular sloths? Or Primates and Human beings being so genticallay similar (actauly I can disporve this myself, we share 505 of our genes with a bananna!)? Even as we speak evolution goes on, people thumbs are becoming more finger like as they are in use as key tapping entities thanks to computers and mobile phones.

One question I have about evolution (assuming it is real), is it an active or passive process?

By which I mean:

Active: Life is activly trying to find a way to better its self and to over come specific tasks.

Passives: What works works. Take polar bears, say originaly they didn't have pure white fur, but some had lighter fur then others. The lighter furs would survive and pass on their genes to the next generation who would (for the sake of argument) get even lighter fur and so on.

~I see one problem with your reasoning: The fact is that is a chicken~
Dgamer
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Posted: 12th Jul 2004 07:04 Edited at: 12th Jul 2004 07:33
@Killswitch
Just because 2 things are in many ways similar, it doesn't mean that they are related. A watermelon is 99% water, but a cloud is also 99% water, but thats where similarities end.

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Ian T
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Posted: 12th Jul 2004 07:19 Edited at: 12th Jul 2004 07:26
Kain, good for you . It's nice to see someone else who's studied biology & science (moreso than me I see!) and can tell that the world's something that has been created.

As for Rich-- that was a fantastic post. Apart from a few minor quibbles I agree with it wholeheartedly, and so feel I have nothing more to say here ... someone else already said it better.

(By the way, Raven saying Cerebus guarded the biblical gates to hell is another of those gems to go down in the annals of history )


Shooting for Eternium Man.

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