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Geek Culture / Religion (Satanism for me) *NO PRERSONAL ATTACKS HERE*

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Jess T
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 00:33
Quote: "since it's you athiests who supposedly preach freewill, it's wonderfuly ironic that it's the theists who aren't attacking people over their beliefs."


Now, now Mouse, not all the athiest's here are bad, religion hating people

I myself am Athiest, I don't believe in God etc, but I don't have anything against religion, It's prefectly fine for everyone else to do it if they want to.

It's just like Homosexuality in this regard, because I am not personally homosexual, but just because I'm not doesn't mean I am against homosexuality etc.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

Jess.


Team EOD :: Programmer/Logical Engineer/All-Round Nice Guy
Kain
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 00:35 Edited at: 13th Jul 2004 00:37
Quote: "What are your opinions of church and state? "In God we Trust" on US money? The Pledge of Allegiance?"


Ok it'll be nice to change topic for a bit. I really go back and forth on this one. First of all there is no separation of church and state in the constitution. That is an exceedingly common misunderstanding. The constitution only says that the state cannot make an official religion, it doesn't say it can't be involved in them.

I don't think the argument against the name of God on money or in the pledge comes from our laws, it has more to do with common sense. Here is the example I always use when talking with other christians about it:

Would you be willing to say the pledge if it went "One nation, there is no god"

The answer is a resounding no. Well then people who don't believe in god shouldn't have to say there is one. But, at the same time, I do think people are probably making too big of a deal about it. It has more to do with tradition these days than an actual statement....Like I said, I go back and forth

Ian T
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 00:57
Quote: "Now, now Mouse, not all the athiest's here are bad, religion hating people"


Misenterpreted for the third time . My point was that it was some of athiests, not all of them, being aggresive, and none of the theists.


Shooting for Eternium Man.
Ferakon
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 01:19
JOIN THE FOAMY CARD CULT!
[href]http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/130517

heh... go there watch

(sorry a little childish i know! BUT HEY! Its a good cartoon, just had to post it!)
+ its on topic...ish

Go for the eyes boo! Go for the eyes!
Guhill The friendly one
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 02:29
Quote: "I don't really have a problem with who are religious either. My only big gripe is with the hardcore Christians, or at least the particular ones I've met. They always seem to be forcing their beliefs upon you, which really bothers me."


Quote: "I agree with your post almost completely - the problem with the above is that it is part of their belief to enforce their beliefs on you, so they're only doing what they believe is right"


Wrong, not all Cristians believe that we have to force Cristianity on everyone, I personally believe it's wrong to force someone to do anything. Those Christians are just WAY too religious for their own good. They want the best for everyone so bad that they portray Cristians as this very stubborn force that won't leave until you convert. Well, I want to redeem Christians, I never have and never will try to convert anyone, so to the Aluminum Guy, I hoped that changed your views on Christians.

Good Will To All,
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Jimmy
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 02:51 Edited at: 13th Jul 2004 02:51
Guhill: That's why he said "the hardcore christians" And as far as Rich's statement goes, I believe it to be true, in a sense. I know in my religion it's not part of our belief to enforce our beliefs on others, but we do feel we have the truth and a gospel that brings about true happiness, beyond the pleasures of the world. So if someone comes to me and asks me a question about my religion, i'll probably spout off like a firehose, but I won't get confrontational or try to force anything on them.

Think of it this way. Say you discover a mineral in the ground that could benefit all mankind forever, we'll call it Unobtainium. Are you going to keep it to yourself in the salty deserts of Utah or make your discovery known to all so that they can build a ship that can drill to the center of the earth and nuke the core, making it rotate again, thus saving everyone?

I'd hope you'd choose the 2nd. Despite others telling you to stop enforcing your metallics rocks upon them.

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Guhill The friendly one
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 03:01
Quote: "So if someone comes to me and asks me a question about my religion, i'll probably spout off like a firehose"


I have a question about your religion... what is it?

Without hating, this world would be perfect.
Ian T
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 03:03
What Jimmy said is, I think, both important and overlooked by many people. While there may be some or many Christians who try to convert people in an aggresive manner or for ends past what they believe to be an ultimate good, there are also those who try to convert people because they honestly believe they're saving them-- they also tend to be the more mild-mannered and friendly types who are far nicer to be around (Jimmeh!).


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 04:03
@Mouse
Empty your mailbox


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HZence
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 04:03 Edited at: 13th Jul 2004 05:30
Quote: "the problem with the above is that it is part of their belief to enforce their beliefs on you, so they're only doing what they believe is right"


Of course that's true, but you must keep in mind that there is more than one way to go about spreading faith. If, for example, you approach someone in modern society and inform them that due to their lack of beliefs, they'll be going to hell after they die, they're more likely to get pissed off and walk away than to get scared and suddenly become a Jesus freak.

When I was a Christian, I felt that the correct way was to first learn about what the other person believes (don't assume that a non-believer is the equivalent of an atheist or a satanist, and don't assume that a non-believer automatically has no morals or values) and then proceed to tell them about what you believe and why you believe it. If they show interest, tell them about how others have "come to Christ" in the past. Subsequently, tell them that they're no different.

You'll find the type of Christians that "force their beliefs upon you" don't really know anything about their own religion. Heh. Someone very close to me is a prime example. I lost my faith over a year ago. This year at church one time, I didn't want to stand up because a) I was fed up with the church and b) I did not believe in God. This person got so angry at me that she told me I was a bad person (whoa - a Christian judging someone?! Who'd have thought.) and then informed that I'd be going to hell because I did not believe.

Well, if this lady knew ANYTHING about her own religion, she'd at least know that the fact that I stuck the label "AGNOSTIC" on my forhead overtop of the label "CHRISTIAN" does not alter my fate in any way. It isn't faith that gets us into Heaven. It's salvation. There's a theory called "OSAS" (literally, Once Saved Always Saved) which says, based on biblical evidence, that you can lose your faith, but you can't lose your salvation.

The point is that yes, according to the bible, you are supposed to "spread the good news." I believe that there are limits to that though, and certain lines that should not be crossed.


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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 05:24
@Raven:
Quote: " how can you follow the teachings of a being that was created just to be evil and cause torment to any soul it can posess?"


We don't follow his teachings, we follow LaVey's teachings, which means I may as well show you the following:

~The Nine Satanist Statements~

1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!

2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!

3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!

4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!

5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!

6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!

7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!

8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!

9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years



~The 11 Satanic Rules of the Earth~

1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.

2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.

3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.

4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.

7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

9. Do not harm little children.

10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.

11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.


~The Nine Satanic Sins~

1. Stupidity—The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It’s too bad that stupidity isn’t painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.

2. Pretentiousness—Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn’t applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone’s made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.

3. Solipsism—Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won’t. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of “Do unto others as they do unto you.” It’s work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.

4. Self-deceit—It’s in the “Nine Satanic Statements” but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it’s fun, and with awareness. But then, it’s not self-deceit!

5. Herd Conformity—That’s obvious from a Satanic stance. It’s all right to conform to a person’s wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.

6. Lack of Perspective—Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints—know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.

7. Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies—Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something new and different, when in reality it’s something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the creator and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.

8. Counterproductive Pride—That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you’ve painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, I’m sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow, then do it.

9. Lack of Aesthetics—This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but an eye for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It’s not what’s supposed to be pleasing—it’s what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one’s own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied.

WWSD?
Neil19533
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 05:28
Shouldnt belive in one thing or it will control you. religion is a good method for making people get along with each other but it still creates conflict so i think that we should make a modern day book on how to live.

Any spelling mistakes are totally In tensional.
Lost in Thought
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 05:35
It only needs one line in the book for everyone to get along. If everyone will follow it all will be well.

"Treat others as you wish to be treated."

IMO

Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 05:39
@Neil19533:
Quote: "Shouldnt belive in one thing or it will control you. religion is a good method for making people get along with each other but it still creates conflict so i think that we should make a modern day book on how to live."


I agree
Though Satanism doesn't promote geting along with all

Not supposed to waste your love=P

WWSD?
Jimmy
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 05:48 Edited at: 13th Jul 2004 05:50
Guhill: If you really care to know I am LDS or a mormon.

Ozzum: I don't know if you've already cleared this up, but I'd like to know what exactly is meant by Lesser and Greater magic or just magic in general as far as a Satanist goes. Like how it applies and what you do with your magic

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Peter H
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 06:06
okay guys i'm a christian you want to know why?
you look at evolution and it's in so *many ways flawed...
and so the only way every thing got here has to have been from "a" god creating it...also if you look at all the world the things in it are obviously designed...

then i look at **all the religions that explain god and all of them in some way or another you somehow attain perfection or earn the right to go to "heaven"(or whatever ) and you go to a "bad" place if you are, well...bad

anyway they all revolve around earning your right to go to "heaven"(or whatever) you die...

and then you come to cristianity in which you don't earn your right to go to heaven at all! you are given it for free! you don't have to pay for it instead christ pays for it with his death on the cross...and when i look at my own life and my own heart i see that it must be true becuase i will NEVER be perfect by my own strength.

and if you are wondering how somebody who died 2000 years ago on a cross can pay for your sin and everybody else's sin think of this...he was completely perfect he had unlimited perfection and when you take that unlimited well of perfection and ***atone for peoples sin with it it almost seems silly to think that it could run out in a small period of 2000 years...(or run out at all for that matter!)



-*i wont spout of endless facts unless you really want to hear them *-


--**of course you could point out satanism where you practice all kinds of sin...but come on who looking me in the eye could tell me that satanism is right.**--

---*** if you want to know why you have to pay for your sins then here's the reason...
god is a perfectly just god and he is a mercifull god right so when somebody does something wrong(i wont go into what's wrong...) the punshment is DEATH... but not physical death but spiritual death which means being seperated from god for eternity.(i.e. hell) but since god loves us(we are his creations after all) he doesn't want to do that to us(here come the mercy part) so he came up with a plan that is mercifull and just...
he had his son Jesus come to earth in the form of a man(which is a pretty humbling form for god) and not only a human but a very "lowly" human(as in not a king but a shepard...the reason for this humbleness is becuase god wanted to give us an example of being a servant which is what god wants us to be) and die on a crossand during this death not only did he die physically but spiritually like i said earlier...so at the moment of his death he took on all the sins that would ever be commited and was seperated from god...

after three days of being dead he came back to life! not only in the physical sense but also spiritually! so he is no longer seperated from god!---***

any questions?(and i don't mean attacks i mean sensible questions)


Formerly known as "DarkWing Duck"
Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 06:20
@Jimmy: Greater magick involves rituals. Lesser magick is does not

As far as magic is concerned, nothing is off-limits. We have nothing to divide black or white magick with.

WWSD?
Jimmy
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 06:24
Quote: "and then you come to cristianity in which you don't earn your right to go to heaven at all! you are given it for free!"


Now, don't take this as an attack, it's not meant to be in anyway, but that is my #1 problem with mainstream christianity. I mean, that's great, you accept Christ as your savior and that's just about all He could ask for, but the problem lies in the lack of actual devotion. I've seen so many christians say they've been saved and "praise jesus!" and what-not yet in their everyday life they're the complete opposite of everything that He stands for. They drink, smoke, engange in sexual activity outside of wedlock, are abusive, etc.. I believe that at some point, judgement DOES need to be made and if you're not living righteously you do deserve less than those who are. What are your thoughts on that?


Back to Ozzum: But what can you DO with it? What does IT do? Is it some force or power? Can you make things disappear? Heh, I'm just clueless on the matter.

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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 06:24
@Magellan Studios: I could stare you in the eye and say that living for yourself and making you happy is the way to beIf your God is merciful, then why does he condemn people to Hell if they don't believe? That's not mercy.

@Manticore Night: No, I wasn't insulting you

WWSD?
Jimmy
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 06:29
Quote: "If your God is merciful, then why does he condemn people to Hell if they don't believe? That's not mercy"


That's funny, because that's not how MY God is

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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 06:31
AJimmy
Quote: "Back to Ozzum: But what can you DO with it? What does IT do? Is it some force or power? Can you make things disappear? Heh, I'm just clueless on the matter."


You can do virtually anythingthough I don't know about making stuff disappear
There are financial spells, love spells, curses, breaking love spells, countering spells, luck spells, bath spells (while looking up magick I once did see a site with bath spells on it), wish spells, mind reading spells, etc.

There are thousands of sites dedicated to spells and the sort. I've viewed a few, because I'm too lazy to make up my own (unless I can't find a spell...then you kinda have to).

WWSD?
Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 06:32
@Jimmy: How is your God? Just curious

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Jimmy
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 06:33 Edited at: 13th Jul 2004 06:38
So it's basically like prayer.

Well, according to my religion there are multiple degrees or "sections" of heaven. Because we believe so strongly in doing your part in ensuring your salvation, people who do not accept Christ and His gospel, yet still live righteously according to His standards and commandments will not be damned, but at the same time will not be in His presence. It'd be like their state in the world now, but better If that makes sense.

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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 06:41
@Jimmy: NopeNot like a prayer

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Jimmy
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 06:44
Sure it is, people pray for financial success, for love, it happens, woohoo.

Maybe not some of the darker things, like curses and counter-spells, but the principle's the same. Except that maybe you believe the power comes from yourself.

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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 06:50
Yes, they do sometime, but we're using sorcery. We don't sit down on our hands and knees and pray that this happens. We don't tend to pray at all. We light some candles, recite our spell, and move on.

WWSD?
Jimmy
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 06:52
I think what i'm mostly saying is that people pray for the same things you have spells for. Things that don't just HAPPEN magically, but rather things that are helped by our own effort.

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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 06:58
I see.

But I prefer to believe in magickYou can't prove it (though a very few scientists have been stufying astral projection).

WWSD?
Jimmy
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 07:01
But astral projection is just an altered state of mind. Putting yourself in a dream world. Which is why I could never believe in magic, because we're just stupid humans with gray crap for brains.

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JoelJ
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 07:06
Magellan Studios: you believe GOD himself died on a cross? or Jesus Christ? or are they the same to you? just currious

anyone sick of this image yet?
Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 07:07
@Jimmy: lol. Well, then why do the cats respond in Astral Projection? Dogs do too, and you can also bring people along with you. There are a few examples of where there is virtually no other explanation, but the person did AP (astrally projected).

WWSD?
Kain
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 07:11 Edited at: 13th Jul 2004 07:17
Quote: "11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him."


Destroy him? Hmm...It sounds like the people that wrote this stuff played one too many online RPGs. I mean, society would collapse if you killed someone for just irritating you lol. Its true what they say, common sense is dead.

Jimmy
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 07:21
Ozzum, it's all in the mind. How do you know if Dogs and Cats react? Yeah maybe they react in your distorted reality, but say you were to astrally project and fly yourself to some place on the earth you'd never been. You wouldn't see what was ACTUALLY there as it was happening, it's impossible.

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Kain
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 07:24 Edited at: 13th Jul 2004 07:26
Quote: "Well, according to my religion there are multiple degrees or "sections" of heaven. Because we believe so strongly in doing your part in ensuring your salvation, people who do not accept Christ and His gospel, yet still live righteously according to His standards and commandments will not be damned, but at the same time will not be in His presence. It'd be like their state in the world now, but better If that makes sense."


Am I correct in assuming you follow the christian faith? If so, I would really like to hear were in the bible you get the idea that there are different sections in heaven, and that people who lived well but weren't "saved" still go to a good place, just not as nice. Everything I've ever read in the bible says otherwise and it seems like the view you are talking about it something that people have invented over time to make their religion less "offensive", without regard for truth.

If their is some scripture you think backs this belief up I'd love to hear it.

JoelJ
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 07:33
i'll get you the scriptures in a sec...im sure jimmy's on it now tho :p

anyone sick of this image yet?
Jimmy
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 07:41 Edited at: 13th Jul 2004 07:42
No, our religion pretty much started out this way, considering it's still less than 200 years old (In this dispensation anyway) So I wouldn't say we do follow most of the Christian ways.

The concept and names of the different degrees of heaven comes from modern revelation from Joseph Smith (the prophet who restored our church) and from this scripture in the bible: 1 Corinthians 15:40-41

That's the KJV, but I believe it reads the same in the newer translations, can't remember though.

He basically defined the 3 different glories. If you're really interested in reading about them they can be found here: http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/76/50-119#50 (won't link :/ ) Versus are highlighted

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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 07:48
@Jimmy:
Quote: "Ozzum, it's all in the mind. How do you know if Dogs and Cats react? Yeah maybe they react in your distorted reality, but say you were to astrally project and fly yourself to some place on the earth you'd never been. You wouldn't see what was ACTUALLY there as it was happening, it's impossible."

No, that was what the scientists saw, not my "distorted reality"

No offence JimmyYou still kickass

WWSD?
JoelJ
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 07:51
"No, that was what the scientists saw, not my "distorted reality""
who were these scientists tho?

anyone sick of this image yet?
Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 07:53 Edited at: 13th Jul 2004 07:56
Don't knowI have a book on it, just let me find it
EDITED for spelling

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Jimmy
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 08:01 Edited at: 13th Jul 2004 08:14
Cats react to their own tails and Dogs... we don't want to get into Dogs and their... reactions. Next time you astral project yourself, I want you to take a video camera and video tape my kitchen. Then i'll believe you.

Don't give me crap about a video camera not working, if you can take another person, you can take a video camera. It's all the same.

But in all seriousness

Quote: "~The 11 Satanic Rules of the Earth~

1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked."


I don't believe someone asked you to post this thread

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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 08:22
Mouse did

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Jimmy
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 08:25
Heh k I guess you're still a satanist *darn*

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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 08:34
Quote: "Heh k I guess you're still a satanist *darn* "

Yup

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Kain
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 08:34 Edited at: 13th Jul 2004 08:38
Wasn't joseph smith the guy who put a paper bag over his head and spun around until he got devinely inspired? I thought he died in jail?

Maybe I'm thinking of someone else who started another denomination though...

Jimmy
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 08:37
Wow Kain, that was mature.

But if you honestly think that then you are very, very mistaken.

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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 08:37
Dunno about that
But I never knew Jimmy was a mormon until now=P

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Kain
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 08:39 Edited at: 13th Jul 2004 08:47
Ok not sure about the murder part but I know he went to jail for something serious...I'll look into it.

How am I being immature?


<edit> Here give this a read: http://www.irr.org/mit/jspage.html

One of the first things I saw about him upon running a search.

Benjamin
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 09:25
Quote: "Yeah maybe they react in your distorted reality, but say you were to astrally project and fly yourself to some place on the earth you'd never been. You wouldn't see what was ACTUALLY there as it was happening, it's impossible."

Well actually I have a weird but true story for you . This guy my mum knew had been having dreams about this house(one that he had never been to), and years and years later on in his life he went to a house, and it was the house that he had been dreaming of all his life. Weird huh?

I sort of believe in astral projection but a part of me makes me think its just peoples imaginations

Hello
Tomy
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 09:27 Edited at: 13th Jul 2004 09:28
Quote: "then i look at **all the religions that explain god and all of them in some way or another you somehow attain perfection or earn the right to go to "heaven"(or whatever ) and you go to a "bad" place if you are, well...bad "


there are so many religion which are not the way you just described it. Mainly eastern religions.
There are religions who don't even have a "heaven" - or a god.
Or for example there's an old religion (from the earlier inhabitants of Scandinavia (don't know the term in English)) which said your coming to a great place (again don't know the english term) if you're dying in war, and if your dying peaceful you're going to sh*tty place.

Quote: "and then you come to cristianity in which you don't earn your right to go to heaven at all! you are given it for free! you don't have to pay for it instead christ pays for it with his death on the cross...and when i look at my own life and my own heart i see that it must be true becuase i will NEVER be perfect by my own strength.
"


you must have misunderstood somethings...
You're not coming in heaven for free! That's NOT christianity.
Actually christianity is one of those religions who is exactly the way you just described it.

Jesus only died on the cross to give us the possiblity to come into heaven, tho you're not coming in for free. ONLY the "good" ones come into the heaven, while the "bad" ones are going to hell.
and you gotta believe me my grandfather is vicar
Ever heard of the purgatory? (this is catholic tho)
There you come after death and there is decided if you're going to hell or to heaven - no matter if Jesus died on the cross.


Quote: "Now, don't take this as an attack, it's not meant to be in anyway, but that is my #1 problem with mainstream christianity. I mean, that's great, you accept Christ as your savior and that's just about all He could ask for, but the problem lies in the lack of actual devotion. I've seen so many christians say they've been saved and "praise jesus!" and what-not yet in their everyday life they're the complete opposite of everything that He stands for. They drink, smoke, engange in sexual activity outside of wedlock, are abusive, etc.. I believe that at some point, judgement DOES need to be made and if you're not living righteously you do deserve less than those who are. What are your thoughts on that?
"


i see your point but how do you define "good" and "evil"?
How can you see what's good and what's bad?
"Good" and "evil" don't actually exist as such, they are just subjective terms for what we like or don't like.
I mean if i killed hunderts of ppl, you'd say i'm evil.
Tho why isn't it good? i mean there are too many ppl on earth destroying the environment, why isn't it good to kill ppl and help the nature that way.
And that's what disturbing me with christianity: Definition of good and evil. ppl who are acting in another way than you want them to act and other than described in the bible are "evil".
This is how christianity basically defines evil.

Now my opinion: (warning good be taken as offencive from christians, tho it's not meant offencive)

I believe religions which want you to act in a determined way were invented by humans to control the people.
Religion was always a good way to keep people under control. Think about France in the 17th and 18th century...
People just didn't revolt because they were afraid of the consequences (at least the king was believed to be the representant of god, who you have to accept or you're going to hell).

In my opinion the highest thing you can achieve in life is personal illuminating.
And as a philosopher said once: "There's also a life before death".
And you should NEVER care about what's after death, cuz the present is important and you should try to achieve what you want, cuz this might be your only chance. And if your following a religion for your whole life doing things that the religion tells you to do, you never come to personal illuminating, cuz you lived for someone else.


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Guhill The friendly one
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Posted: 13th Jul 2004 09:38
Ozzum, I have a question for you. Why did you become Satanist anyway? Does it help bring peace at all? If you just became Satanist because it looks "cool" and you get to cast spells you're making a big mistake. If that's not why, please tell me.

Good will to all,
and don't worry, if you step in my lair I will not destroy you,
Guhill The Anti Hate

Without hating, this world would be perfect.

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