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Geek Culture / An after thought on why people get offended at...

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greenlig
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 16:06
Arrow, God gave you a brain and the ability to use it, yes, but you obviously arent using in the way he intended right? i mean, if God gave it to you, wouldnt he want you to be at least a little greatful? He does, and whats more, he requires PERFECT OBEDIENCE!!

PERFECT

None of us can attain that. No man ever has, save Jesus Christ. You saying your going to go to hell because you are using your mind is in a way right and wrong. Yes you are using your mind, but not the way that man was originally created. The 'loophole' to which you refer is non-existent. Yes, you will go to hell if you do not obey or believe in God. You were created to serve God with all your "heart, mind, and soul". If you break that and DO NOT acknowledge the existence of God, then sure, You'll go staright to hell! It is just the same of you fail to recognize the authority that the country has over you. You break the rules, you go to jail. Common sense. There is no loophole. Once again, if you HAVENT READ THE BIBLE, the Bible being the only way to God, THEN YOU JOLLY WELL CANT MAKE ANY STATEMENTS AGAINST IT!!! I mean, its a world with freedom of speech, but when you start attacking the Bible, without having read it and understanding it, you cant truly make an accurate appraisal of what is in it.

Animals only want to kill and dominate? Hrrm....my cat doesnt. The entire world fell into sin when Adam did. Animals included. This doesnt not, however, mean that they are just out "to kill". Sure, they kill to survive(eat,defend,etc), but it is not as if they are just left to fend for themselves. What most of you fail to appreciate is that God keeps holding the cosmos in order. He didnt just set it ticking merrily away on its course.

Wars in Gods name were exactly and only that. Wars in Gods name. There has been times when God called his people to rise up to war(king david etc) but the crusades werent such times. the wars you refer to were mostly the wooings of the Roman Catholic Church, which had many crucial errors in its earlier stages. Im not flaming Catholics here, but the church back then had a very skewed idea of what Gods command was.

What if everyone followed Gods commands? What then? Would the world fall inot disrepair? Would the entire eco-system of the planet die? I think not! Believing that everything has a soul, and respecting everything are two very different concepts. God's commands are tailored to make mankind, after the fall, a more Goldy and BETTER SOCIETY. For all of you that denounce God, what about a BETTER SOCIETY?

My logic is sound arrow, its you who are pushing the 'planet of the apes', apes evolving into more powerful beings than humans?
Sure.

regards
Greenlig

I got best and fairest for soccer WHOOHOOO!
greenlig
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 16:09
Pincho, i'd say its the unbelief in God that has caused problems.

imaging going to heaven and seeing it was run by God when you expected that it would be run by men and you lived your life accordingly?

Actually, dont imagine heaven in that case, try to imagine hell.

I got best and fairest for soccer WHOOHOOO!
nuclear glory
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 16:11 Edited at: 23rd Oct 2003 16:14
That's a good point Pincho. If everyone went to Heaven it'd become just like the Earth. And God, already knowing this, has prepared for it. That is one reason that not all will go to Heaven.
greenlig
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 16:11
Btw, i dont believe that we can convince anyone here, and we(christians) arent. We are just putting forward what we believe to be the truth.

Dont be afraid that we are trying to Bible bash you. We aint.

I got best and fairest for soccer WHOOHOOO!
greenlig
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 16:12
EXCELLENT POINT NUCLEARGLORY!!!

I got best and fairest for soccer WHOOHOOO!
Easily Confused
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 16:21
This thread still here!?

Man has been arguing of the existance of a god for thousands of years with no conclusion, and I find a bit funny that you guys really think that you are actualy going to resolve this argument by chatting about it in this forum. It's not going to happen.

(sounds of loud thunder from above)

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nuclear glory
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 16:25
God has already done the proving of his existence. We've just been arguing for thousands of years of whether to accept it or not. And, unfortunately, you're right, this forum won't make people accept it. It's deeply saddening.
Arrow
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 16:25 Edited at: 23rd Oct 2003 16:26
Quote: "Animals only want to kill and dominate?"
ROTFL, not animals, knothead, humans.

Quote: "You were created to serve God with all your "heart, mind, and soul". "
False, man was created with free will and the choice to follow him, angels were create to worship God.

Tell me something, since you are so fluent in the bible, could you explain to me somethings that's eluded me. When does Saten goto hell? Genises never meansons that, it said he was cast down to earth, not hell. And for that matter when does hell come into play, I don't remember hearing about when it was formed. In fact the only chapter I've read that deals with Satan accualy being cast into hell is Revelations. Can you explain this to me?

I find it a tad deserning that Relilion who's prophet said "Turn the other cheek" is now saying join us or go to hell.


DDR is the best form of exercise money can buy.
Joeyjoejoe Shabadoo
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 16:41
Hell comes into play somewhere I forgot but "the pit" is mentioned sometimes.

All I can say is "see you in hell...from heaven"

This sig is poinless. Poin poin poin poin!
Joeyjoejoe Shabadoo
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 16:44
Hmm just thinking:

If christiananity is right all non christians goto hell and christians goto heaven.
If hindu is right then we all become cocroaches.
If scientists are right there is no alfterlife, this is all there is baby!
If Pincho is right we die and goto annother place just like earth, but will we still wonder what crewated that place?

Were all dooomed arrrrrggg

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nuclear glory
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 16:45 Edited at: 23rd Oct 2003 16:50
@Arrow

Revelation Chapter 20, Verse 2:
"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, "

"And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should decieve the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

Verse 7:
"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,"

(Then it talks about him doing more deceptive acts and "compassed the camp of the Saints")

Verse 10:
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever"


This is not only Revelation however. Daniel 8:25 refers to this event in reference to the Anti-Christ:

"And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. "

This is the man who will appear to create balance in our society. Hence the verse: "and by peace shall destroy many"

And it is not "join us or go to hell" but rather

"accept Jesus as paying the penalty for your sin, or pay the penalty yourself"
Arrow
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 17:09
So it's join us and fear going to hell or goto hell?

So if satan goes to hell in Revelation, which has yet so pass, that means half of the bible contradicts itself and Satan walks the earth.

Quoting scriptur goes both ways, need I quote "Song of Salum"?


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Joeyjoejoe Shabadoo
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 17:17
Christians dont fear going to hell.

God and Satan playing monopoly:

"Goto hell donot pass earth do not collect 200 soals"

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nuclear glory
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 17:25 Edited at: 23rd Oct 2003 17:27
Please do quote from the Song.

Hell exists for the judgement of sin. Being that God is "Holy" he cannot allow sin in his presence. If you are not separated from your sin then you get cast into hell with your sin. (you die in your sin)

Jesus is the method by which you may be cleansed from your sin. You aren't required to preach, join a church, or wear an "I'm a Christian" name tag. You just accept him.

You can immediately/anywhere accept Jesus and ask him to forgive you your sins, and he will. You just talk to him 1 on 1... it's that simple. And you don't have to tell me or anyone else. Although, I'm not sure why I'd want to keep his salvation a secret.

Please show the contradiction. As the Bible never stated he was cast into the pit until Rev.
In Genesis he was cast to the Earth and "was wroth".
WOLFY
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 17:36 Edited at: 23rd Oct 2003 17:37
I am a Christian, but I also believe in Science. The 2 work hand in hand. To put it in a way that everyone here can understand it:

Life is a 3D game. God was the programmer. We have been trying to figure out the source code (science) so we can figure out the game objective. We have come up with a lot of different alogorithims to simulate different parts of the game. Some of them are close, some are not. Using the alogorithims that we have come up with has helped us do more in the game because it is easier to simulate things. However, as we come up with more and more of these simulations we forget more and more that they are not the exact source. We begin to think of ourselves as the programmer, not God, and drive ourselves further and further away from the games objective. God programmed himself into the game once to show us what the objective is. We took his game character and gave him a big old GAME OVER. We do still have the game manual (bible) to guide us towards the objective, but like most games people don't bother to read it.
Bottom line is this. Even if we had all of the source, it is the hardest way to figure out how to play the game. Give credit to the programmer for a great experience and just enjoy the ride. You don't have to know the first thing about the engine to beat the game.

WOLF

HOOOWWWLLL!!!
Easily Confused
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 17:43
Oh no! nuclearglory is quoting Bible verses!
Run for it! While you still can!

I now expect Elmer Gantry to turn up.

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Unless your name is Bob Ross, then you can do it in thirty minutes.
Arrow
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 17:46
If Hell doesn't exist untill Revelation how can I or anyones go there?

In any case we've gone far off top, the original point was open-mindedness, not my God is bigger than you God, this goes for those who ideas are there "higher power"


DDR is the best form of exercise money can buy.
empty
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 17:49
Well, a bit off-topic, but there's something I'd like to know:
Are there any people in this community who belong to a different religion (other than Christianity), ie. are there any Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists etc.?

I awoke in a fever. The bedclothes were all soaked in sweat.
She said "You've been having a nightmare and it's not over yet"
Arrow
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 18:00
Wish I was Shinto


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empty
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 18:03
You wish? Why aren't you?

I awoke in a fever. The bedclothes were all soaked in sweat.
She said "You've been having a nightmare and it's not over yet"
nuclear glory
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 18:04
Hell existed before Revelation. We find mention of it throughout scripture:

Deuteronomy 32:22
"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

2 Samuel 22:6
"The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;"

Job 11:8
"It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know? "

Job 26:6
"Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering. "

Psalm 9:17
"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."

(It's mentioned over 50 times throughout the Bible)

I do not see an explicit passage as to God creating hell. But in Genesis, there is no explicit reference that he created water either. Examining scripture:

Genesis Chapter 1 - Verse 1:
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

We assume that water was created with the Earth or before the Earth. But, because God did not explicitly mention the creation of a specific item does not mean it was never created.

In Revelation, however, Satan is first cast into the bottomless pit then later into the Lake of Fire. The bottomless pit and Lake of Fire are different from hell. They are commonly confused as the same location.
Arrow
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 18:22 Edited at: 23rd Oct 2003 18:23
Why create... nevermind no one cares.

Shintoism is a very personal Religion, however there are so many branches and sects one must be, for lact of a better word, converted. There are basic beliefs that most sects follow but one need to find a teacher who's can show their sect in order to become Shinto. Also since the religion is Japanese and honoring your ancestors and family, you need to except Japaese ancestors or adopt another's as your own (I'm fairly sure, but like I said, lots of diffent sects). Rather risk finding bad info on the net, I'll remain outside the religion (yet still following it's ideals) untill I can meet someone who can teach me the ways of thier sect.

A quick search on Google can get you the basic info, or you can goto http://www.beliefnet.com/ and look for info there. Beliefnet has info on all religions along with news and forums for each Religion, even Aithism and Satanisim (it's not what you think).


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empty
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 18:40
Ah ok, I see.

I awoke in a fever. The bedclothes were all soaked in sweat.
She said "You've been having a nightmare and it's not over yet"
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 18:46
I may have given the impression that Heaven would be like Earth but really it would have to be much stricter. Similar to God, the humans would make choices about who is reliable enough not to cause any trouble. Then they would either keep you in Heaven or send you back to Earth. As for wondering where we came from in Heaven, we would always have been in Heaven. Hard to imagine but for Heaven to be for eternity, suggests that there was no beginning either. Just forever in both directions. Our bodies just wait for us to go back. We might go back each night when we sleep to give our bodies some exercise. Then a dream is imprinted over the memory. This is just a bunch of examples based on what the people on Earth would do with a similar amount of power.
Fallout
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 19:52
I feel quite jealous now, reading through these posts. Whenever I make an argument, I have to back it up with my own reasoning and my own examples, where as a load of people here can just read out some passages from the bible.

I have one question though, why should we be grateful for God creating us? It's not like we live in a particularly nice world. It's alright for all you middle/upper class rich kids in your nice neighbourhoods, but the vast majority of us, throughout the world, have it bad. Last night, my next door neighbours were attacked by an arsonist and we were temporarily evacuated, and my life is kushti compared to plenty in parts of the arab world, third world, and other sh*tholes of the globe.

Why should we be grateful for that? And before you tell me we caused those problems, and God didn't, why didn't he forsee them and try to prevent them? Where the f*ck is our eutopia?

Insiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!
WOLFY
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 21:08
Quote: "Where the f*ck is our eutopia?"

Heaven. Want to get there someday?

HOOOWWWLLL!!!
the_winch
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 21:20 Edited at: 23rd Oct 2003 21:22
Quote: "I feel quite jealous now, reading through these posts. Whenever I make an argument, I have to back it up with my own reasoning and my own examples, where as a load of people here can just read out some passages from the bible."


Especially when some of them where saying earlier on in the thread theat they where looking for the truth not ideas that couldn't be backed up

Quote: "I have one question though, why should we be grateful for God creating us? It's not like we live in a particularly nice world. It's alright for all you middle/upper class rich kids in your nice neighbourhoods, but the vast majority of us, throughout the world, have it bad. Last night, my next door neighbours were attacked by an arsonist and we were temporarily evacuated, and my life is kushti compared to plenty in parts of the arab world, third world, and other sh*tholes of the globe."


Not that I see why we should be grateful either, if we where not created what difference would it make to us?

It could be argued that a lot of the problems in the world are caused by people rather than god. Didn't god give us freewill? Obviously freewill is more important to god than a bit of human suffering.
Brandon
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 22:56 Edited at: 23rd Oct 2003 22:59
Yes freewill is more important to me too. Without freewill what would that make us? Nothing more than Automatons... and I dunno about u but I don't call that life.
Arrow
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 23:09
Freewill is my ethos, that's why I hold open-mindedness to highly. Close-mindedness leads to ideas that the only entity one can see is theirself. That leads to sin. All horror one can do to another stem from removing thier will. Robery, rape, murder and worse all come from the removal or actions against another's will.


DDR is the best form of exercise money can buy.
Brandon
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 23:17
Quote: "
I have one question though, why should we be grateful for God creating us? It's not like we live in a particularly nice world. It's alright for all you middle/upper class rich kids in your nice neighbourhoods, but the vast majority of us, throughout the world, have it bad. Last night, my next door neighbours were attacked by an arsonist and we were temporarily evacuated, and my life is kushti compared to plenty in parts of the arab world, third world, and other sh*tholes of the globe.

Why should we be grateful for that? And before you tell me we caused those problems, and God didn't, why didn't he forsee them and try to prevent them? Where the f*ck is our eutopia?
"


First off, I'm sorry to hear about the pain you go thru where u live , where I live things aren't as bad as that, well, not yet anyhow...

And to answer your 2nd question, God did foresee our problems, but he's not about to make our choices for us, if he did then we would never actually get to do what we wanted to do. This might sound bad but hear me out... Wouldn't it be worse if we wanted to sin but God wouldn't let us, I mean come'on try to imagine it, you want to sin, but God says, "no I won't let you do that". That would be like totally tourtureous I think.
the_winch
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 23:20
Quote: "Wouldn't it be worse if we wanted to sin but God wouldn't let us, I mean come'on try to imagine it, you want to sin, but God says, "no I won't let you do that". That would be like totally tourtureous I think."


Would it be any worse than laws? surely laws of anykind are not what god wanted if he wanted man to be free.
nuclear glory
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 23:23 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 00:20
Gods laws were designed to keep us from hurting ourselves.

EDIT:
In reference to "truth and not ideas that can't be backed up" I ask you, what evidence do you need? I've tried my best to answer questions accurately using facts.

I know why I believe this, and it's not due to "close mindedness".

There was a point in my life I believed as you do. I believed "religion" was brainwashing. And I avoided conversations about the topic.

Don't think that I'm a stranger to those ideas and my mind was just never "freed". That's one reason I try to stay within the boundaries of "hard fact" as I was difficult to convince myself.

That said, I ask you to challenge my faith. Find a flaw in what I've accepted as the truth.

I would like to know of any error.
Fallout
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 00:44
All I think is, for some people it's harder to believe in God than others. Some people are good people, and go through a lot of cr*p in their lives. If they're not the sort to believe easily, then the fact that they have a lot of heart ache isn't gonna make them embrace the so called creator.

People will happier lives have less interfering with their decisions, and therefore might go either way. People at the other end of the spectrum, always fighting in war, and living under tyranny, well .. they're likely to be the same. They'll either believe with a passion, or hate with a passion.

I think it's those of us who fall inbetween these, having a lot of hard times, but not needing God, find it hard to believe, even if we're open minded about it. Man will do what man will do, but if you live your life as a innocent, and there isn't even a touch of subtle intervention to guide you to happiness, then why believe? Who cares? Why believe and love a God who decides your happiness in life comes second to something else?

Insiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 00:45
Quote: "That said, I ask you to challenge my faith. Find a flaw in what I've accepted as the truth. "


Your truth has been handed to you by someone who you do not know. His truth was handed to him, and before that, the truth was handed to them. Going back to the beginning of your truth, there was a book. The book was written by Mankind. The book was written by a mankind that was in its early stages of development. Their world was savage, their lifestyle was simple. Their schooling was basic. They wrote about a man that lived in their times. They gathered their information from witnesses that adored this man. This was their Elvis Presley, and they wanted to present him in a fashion that encapsulated his awesome presence. This man was Jesus, and when he died, his followers were morning his death. They so much wanted to see him again. Then stories came about that people had seen him walking around (like Elvis).. and so he had risen from the grave...although not many other people actually saw him. This became a common trend (Like ghosts, UFO's) and seeing Jesus was their equivelent of modern time ghosts.

Books are never accurate, they are written from the human mind, events are written from information stored in the human brain. The brain works on a principal of imagination. This imagination has flaws. When writing down facts, it has a need to express its ideas in a most extreme way to make the audience feel the emotions that it is trying to portray... The ark was vast..."nah" ... the ark was huge! "I just aint gettin' it through to these people"

How shall I express the enormity of the ark...well it carried animals... If I say it carried 50 animals it doesn't seem like a lot. But it was our livelyhood. I want people to understand what the event meant to us...........

It would be something like the expression of emotion that makes the story so interesting. Not that they wanted to lie, but that they wanted people to feel how they felt at the time.

Go back through all my replies, and they are based on the way mankind is today, in its present state. My proof is always around us in a solid form. I don't even quote scientists unless they show us a working example of what they mean.

Pincho.
Brandon
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 01:11 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 01:12
How can you just say something like that Pincho, it sounds like that came right off the top of your head. To me it sounds like you haven't even read the Bible, if you did then you'd have known that Jesus was predicted in the Old Testament. The way he would live, even the exact way in which he died is accuratley predicted 100%, in the Old Testament book of Isaiah, and it was written many centuries before he was even born. And there is even a passage in Daniel Chapter 9 that even goes as far as to predict the very day that he would come.

Are you sure that mankind was in it's early stages of development only 2,000 years ago?

And one last thing, we christians don't just believe because it sounds good and because someone else told us all, we believe because we know, we have had a real experience with God through Jesus Christ and it's not any fairy tale mumbo jumbo either. It's real.

And what you say about books never being accurate, well.. the Bible isn't a book, it's a collection of books written over the span of 1800+ years by more than 40 individuals, seems to flow together like 1 book though doesn't it?
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 01:16 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 01:18
I thought that Christians didn't believe in the books wriiten before the times of Jesus because that suggests that he copied the events in the book. So I skipped that part to help you out a bit. Also the dates then don't tie in with Jesus, they tie in better with his brother.. I think his name was James or similar.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 01:23
You've got to understand that it's hard for someone to read the Bible when it starts off so flawed with the ark. I really don't collect all the facts about the Bible because that would be a waste of my efforts.
empty
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 01:34
Quote: "if you did then you'd have known that Jesus was predicted in the Old Testament. The way he would live, even the exact way in which he died is accuratley predicted 100%, in the Old Testament book of Isaiah, and it was written many centuries before he was even born. And there is even a passage in Daniel Chapter 9 that even goes as far as to predict the very day that he would come."

The Jewish people will disagree here.

I awoke in a fever. The bedclothes were all soaked in sweat.
She said "You've been having a nightmare and it's not over yet"
nuclear glory
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 01:38 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 01:40
I commend you on your objectiveness and wisdom enough to not be fooled by blind ideals. It's a great trait.

Think not that someone just told me and I chose to believe it. I myself would only believe based on fact. And people defending the Bible with the Bible seemed as a self-reinforced delusion to me.

However, the Bible has been found time and time again to be archeologically accurate. (See below)

As for mankind writing the scripture, the scripture itself tells us that God works through the men who wrote the Bible, going as far as telling them letter by letter what to write. Again, this seems as a reinforced delusion, however, throughout the Old Testament people began to unlock "codes" of the scripture. The codes were founding using an "ELS" system. In short, it you a number (5 for example) and you pick a position in the Hebrew text, and it would take that letter and record it, then move ahead 5 letters and record the letter, move ahead 5 letters, etc... And they began to find complete words and phrases (Note: this was done using the original Hebrew text, which was not translated or modified) The number of codes they found make it mathematically impossible that they are there on accident. And what's even more interesting, is that that many codes are prophetic. Some of the codes found are:

"America in Iraq"
"Scud B"
"Intelligent Weapon"
"Hitler"

and tons of others. Oftentimes they don't know what to search for until something happens, so they find the codes after the fact.

note: Before you scoff at this and say "they added the codes after the fact" consider this: The codes are being taken from the original, unmodified, Hebrew text. And if they tried to add something, it would throw off all of the other codes. And God clearly states that attempting to predict the future is wicked. If you want to test your own studies on these codes, I suggest you get copies of the Original Hebrew texts and line them up with the code finding program (which searches the Hebrew text stored in the software) and test it yourself. Here are some links:

http://www.biblecodedigest.com/
http://www.grantjeffrey.com/torah.htm

(That's just 1 finding)


The scribes at the time, who were responsible for moving the text of scripture on to new scrolls (to preserve the Word), would check and recheck their work. And if they found one letter wrong, they would burn the entire scroll and start over.


If you have any question about the legitimacy of the Bible, please ask. And I mean specifics. (IE "The Bible says this, where is it?" )

Also, in reference to Jesus, over 500 eyewitnesses saw him after his resurrection. The idea that they all hallucinated or dreamed the events before and after his Resurrection are highly unlikely. As their stories all line up. And the probability of 2 people dreaming or hallucinating the same event, at the same time, in the same place is, again, mathematically impossible. Let alone 500 for that matter.


My faith is founded on both archeological evidence and mathematical impossibility that the scripture is false.


Archeological Examples:
(There was a city mentioned in the Bible that was never found, so people scoffed at the legitimacy of the Bible. Later, during an archeological dig, they uncovered the city and found the seal of the King. It had both the name of the city and the name of the King, all of which lined up exactly with the Bible)

(An event in city was described as the walls "falling flat" according to scripture. When archeologists uncovered the city, they found that the walls had literally fallen flat(not over). They fell flat down as if the Earth opened up and swallowed them. Had the attackers plowed into the wall (which is not what scripture teaches) the walls would have fallen over, not flat)


Again, let me know if you have any specific questions.
Brandon
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 01:39
How can he copy
the place of his birth?
the time of his birth?

How can he make someone pierce him in his side when he's dying on the cross?

How can he force them to pierce his hands?

How can he copy Roman Soldiers gambling for his robe when he's dying on the cross?

Why would he copy his betrayal?

The mockings,
the manner of his Burial, on and on ....

The probablility of just eight of these prophecies being fulfilled is
1 in 10 to the 17th power. That's 100,000,000,000,000,000
To put the size of this number in perspective let's take that many gold coins and let's lay them over the face of Texas. They would cover up the entire state and would be around 2 feet deep.
Then mark an X on one of the gold coins and fly over Texas and drop it anywhere you want. Now blindfold someone, and have him parachute in. Now, what chance would the guy have of getting the marked coin? He'd have the same chance that the prophets had of writing the eight prophecies listed above and having them all come true in any one man.

Now how about we raise the odds to 48 prophecies. That would be 1 in 10 to the 157th power!! That's a 1 followed by 157 0's!!!!

Now listen carefully, ...... Jesus fullfilled over 300 prophecies.

It sure takes a whole lot more faith to not believe than it does to believe!!

Refusing to choose is a form of choice.

Disbelief is a form of belief.

In choosing, we must not only use the intelligence
God gave us, but we must also use our hearts...
Brandon
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 01:42 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 01:46
Quote: "
The Jewish people will disagree here.
"


That's why the ones who don't believe are not Christians.
But you must remember that many of Jesus's followers were jewish, it is those who did not recognize their Messiah who would disagree. They are also the ones who crucified him as it was predicted in the Old Testament as well...
nuclear glory
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 01:55 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 01:58
@Pincho

A bit about the Ark, what reason do you have to question the Ark?

There were claims as well as footage of an Ark on a Mountain. The Moutain had a quake and ripped the structure in half, so during the warm season you can see it jutting out from the snow. You can even see inside (since it's ripped in half) and many stalls are visible on the inside.

Also, they did a buoyancy test on the Ark structure (using a model of an Ark), and found that it was incredibly buoyant. The size of the Ark was just enough to keep the top of it above surface level. And to capsize the Ark, it would have taken a roll of 90 degrees or more to turn the structure upside down. And the incredible weight of it would have made it very difficult to roll.

Also, from water marks around the World, scientists agree that at one point the Earth experienced great flooding or several "mega tsunamis"
Brandon
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 02:01
Yeah so many facts,
here is a cool link with lots of archeological info.

http://www.wyattmuseum.com/
empty
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 02:15 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 02:16
Quote: "That's why the ones who don't believe are not Christians."

Ah, yes.

Quote: "But you must remember that many of Jesus's followers were jewish, it is those who did not recognize their Messiah who would disagree."

They were Jewish, but then again there was no such thing as Christianity at that time.

Quote: "They are also the ones who crucified him as it was predicted in the Old Testament as well..."

Well, that's not proven (historically).

I awoke in a fever. The bedclothes were all soaked in sweat.
She said "You've been having a nightmare and it's not over yet"
Brandon
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 02:37 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 02:56
Christianity is when a person accepts Jesus's death on the cross as payment for thier sins. It is not an established practise. Unless you are talking about Roman Cathlicism ( God Bless them ). But true Christianity at the heart is a relationship between a person who has accepted Jesus's death as the payment for thier sins.

The Jews that followed Jesus had faith that he was the Messiah, even though none of them knew about the suffering that awaited him, even though he told them time and time again.

But all in all you are right, if you mean that Christianity did not exist in name yet. But those who had faith in the Messiah to forgive them of thier sins are saved as well.

Look at it like this:
Before the birth of Christ, there were people who owed an impossible in debt, but they believed in the coming Master that would pay bill.
Well, 2,000 years ago, the Master came and payed off the bill for those that believed and he established a credit balance for who so ever will.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 02:44
It's all very interesting. I like some of the things about finding secret codes in the Bible etc. I've seen it all before. You have to realise that you are going to find words within words in nearly any book. I had a quick look on this page and found some words. Not much, but I only looked at a few lines. I think that what you actually have to do is not believe in God, but convince yourself that he exists or just have blind faith. Why bother in my opinion. If Hell is what scares people into convincing themselves about him then I would say that Hell is even more unlikely than the existence of god. The Devil has no reason to hide himself from mankind. It might be in his favour to let himself be known. At least that would give him the advantage over an unknown entity. Or do you say that the devil is imprissoned, but that was for only 1000 years, so where is he?

Pincho.
Brandon
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 02:49 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 02:53
Quote: "
The Devil has no reason to hide himself from mankind. It might be in his favour to let himself be known. At least that would give him the advantage over an unknown entity. Or do you say that the devil is imprissoned, but that was for only 1000 years, so where is he?
"


If the devil reveiled himself as he is then everyone would run to God and away from him. He wants anyone that he can trick, to go to hell and suffer because he hates every last one of us. Why would he make himself know when he knows that it would result in people escaping torment and suffering in the Lake Of Fire forever?

And don't worry about satan being imprissoned, that hasn't happend yet and can't happen for at least 7 more years. He is here on the Earth right now, deceiving people in the Billions.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 02:58
Do you suppose that God lets him burn people in a lake of fire? And what are these sins? Not believing in God is presumably a sin.. So not believing in God is a reason for the Devil to burn you in a lake of fire? So you get to Heavens gate with a perfect record, but you didn't believe in God. "You can't come in, you have to burn in hell..sorry!" and this person at the gate is an angel? and God doesn't intervene? You really want to care about this God? A problem I have with his existence is this trait that he has to be so hiddeously portrayed.

Pincho.
Ian T
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 03:05
Brandon, you seem quite the authority on Christianity, so, if you have time, I've been wondering this for a while.

According to your religion, are their various levels of damnnation? I'm pretty sure that if you don't believe in god, no matter how peacefully and kindly you live your life, you end up damned (which, like Pincho, I find rather problematic). So what if you live a hateful and evil life? Surely you'd get more punishment than, say, a nature-worshipping druid, someone who lives in (even fake, according to your religion) peace and harmony with nature... or would those two people recieve the same levels of damnation?

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
nuclear glory
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 03:10 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 03:24
They tested the ELS system on the book "War and Peace" in Hebrew. And found no significant codes. And the number of the codes found is enormous, the list goes on and on:

A list of all the major tree types were found encoded in the passage where it talks about God creating the plants. The challenged college students to make a passage as long or shorter than that one, in any language they want, and embed all the tree types into their passage. It could be about any topic and must read normally.

The students after several hours of attempt, gave up after 12 trees. The problem being that when you add a letter, it wrecks all of the other codes.

The also found a complete list of rabbis. They found this one because the statistical society said they wouldn't publish the Bible ELS findings unless they found all of the 33 rabbis encoded. Well, they went to their computers, and typed in the name of the rabbis. And they found all 33 of them, encoded right next to each other, along with their exact dates of death. And they were arranged in the proper chronological order! The statistical society then agreed to publish the info. as their requirement had been met.

If the trees and rabbis aren't enough, then those in combination with the tons of other codes they found make this finding completely astonishing. Being that a human would have had tremendous difficulty putting the codes in on purpose, and that it would have been impossible for them to encode prophetic statements with exact dates and times.

It had to have taken a higher form of intelligence with ability to know the future to have put the codes there. And it's throughout the Old Testament, of our men like Moses who, as it is believed, were told letter for letter what to write.

Also, the most common code found throughout the Old Testament is "Yeshua" or "Jesus" in English. While this is a short name to find in Hebrew, the vast number of times it is there makes it mathematically impossible again. There was a passage that went similar to this:

"Who is the Lord?"

and in this passage they found the code "Yeshua" at an ELS setting of like 2. Remember! This is Old Testament scripture before Christ was born. That makes this finding absolutely incredibly.

In reference to the Devil, his greatest victory is convincing people that he doesn't exist. All he has to do is get you to turn away from God.

Also, the Devil does believe in God. The Devil knows exactly who God is and what God's plan is. And I'm sure that the Devil is very familiar with scripture. As when he tempted Jesus, he used scripture to try and back the temptation.

EDIT:
The Devil is far different from a man. He is "pure" evil. The scripture says there is "no good in him". All of the worst men of human history combined are less that 1% of the evil of Satan. Our mind cannot even comprehend evil in it's pure form.

Satan goes to the Lake of Fire because he is evil. And none of God's people burn in the lake of fire. You become "God's person" by accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. And until that point you are not a child of God.

And though it may seem problematic that a "good" person would go to hell or burn in the Lake of Fire, you have to remember that at one point or another we all have sinned. That makes us less than good in the sight of the Lord, because you have to remember that he is Holy and perfect. And Jesus paid the penalty for your sin, so that all who would accept him may be perfect in the sight of God.

The term is called "Grace". The fact that we can screw up and sin, and he's faithful to forgive us. Even as believers. If there was a limit to his Grace, then what happens if we sin one too many times? The Lord looks at your heart, not your actions. And you know if you're right with him.

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