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Geek Culture / An after thought on why people get offended at...

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Brandon
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 03:11
Quote: "
Do you suppose that God lets him burn people in a lake of fire? And what are these sins? Not believing in God is presumably a sin.. So not believing in God is a reason for the Devil to burn you in a lake of fire? So you get to Heavens gate with a perfect record, but you didn't believe in God. "You can't come in, you have to burn in hell..sorry!" and this person at the gate is an angel? and God doesn't intervene? You really want to care about this God? A problem I have with his existence is this trait that he has to be so hiddeously portrayed.
"


First off the devil won't be burning anyone in the Lake Of Fire, he'll be in torment himself. (Misery loves company)
There is not 1 person to ever go through life without commiting a sin except for Jesus. Lying , stealing, adultry, murder, evil thoughts, etc... God can't allow any of that near him.

And let me tell you, no one will get to the gates of heaven with a perfect record. Everyone has sinned no matter how good they are, and God can't let sin near him, and he can't pretend that it never happend, he must judge it.

The only reason that anyone will go to hell is because they didn't accept Jesus's death on the cross as the payment for thier sin, so, they'll have to pay for it themselves.

I hope that answers your questions
Brandon
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 03:32
Quote: "
Brandon, you seem quite the authority on Christianity, so, if you have time, I've been wondering this for a while.

According to your religion, are their various levels of damnnation? I'm pretty sure that if you don't believe in god, no matter how peacefully and kindly you live your life, you end up damned (which, like Pincho, I find rather problematic). So what if you live a hateful and evil life? Surely you'd get more punishment than, say, a nature-worshipping druid, someone who lives in (even fake, according to your religion) peace and harmony with nature... or would those two people recieve the same levels of damnation?
"


It's not about what the person has done, with God, sin is sin. And all of us have done it. It's not about who did something worse than someone else, but it is the fact that it is sin, and God provided a way for us to still escape hell, but anyone who doesn't believe that Jesus died on the cross for thier sins and confess it, ... God can't pretend that they did. All a person has to do is believe and confess, ... I don't think there is a level of tourture in the Lake Of Fire.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 03:35
So we have an encoded Bible that was written with a knowledge of the future. Therefore all the sinners were already known before they sinned. Therefore all people that are going to hell are already known by God. This gives the word faith a pointlessness because it was never required in the first place. It makes existence a pre-recorded event. I was never going to believe in God even before Jesus was around that was known. God could have changed peoples fate by showing himself and altering the future. Some facts can create new problems. A list of rabbi in the correct order would be fantastic, but I suppose that if I look up the details regarding this example it will be totally flawed. These examples are always there to confuse you, but mostly they are white lies. Probably the encoding was like 4 letters along, now 6, now 2, and totally in a random fashion like that.

Pincho.
Fallout
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 03:38
So, do we get a chance to have a moment of revelation, realise that God does exist, come to terms with the sacrifice Jesus made, and then get into Heaven? Sounds kinda stupid, but you can't blame someone for not believe, but if they then go "ahhh, I was wrong all along. I see what you're getting at. Cheers Jesus." Do we get in?

And also, is it wrong to only consider this whole process just incase it ends up being true and just incase we might go to hell?

Insiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!
greenlig
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 03:52
good point brandon.

i was going to say something but Brandon has done it for me

i think that the two biggest problems that people have with God is that he is either(in their estimation), a big santa claus, or a cruel God.

He is neither. He is the epitome of love, but that doesn not exclude him from being jealous for his name and glory. When it all comes down to the wire, God loves his elect, and our purpose it to serve him and glorify him.

We glorify him by serving him correctly. This doesnt mean we dont sin, it just means Jesus died on the cross fro us, and instead of looking at our sins, God looks at Jesus who washed them away.

reagrds
Greenlig

I got best and fairest for soccer WHOOHOOO!
Brandon
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 03:52
Quote: "
So, do we get a chance to have a moment of revelation, realise that God does exist, come to terms with the sacrifice Jesus made, and then get into Heaven? Sounds kinda stupid, but you can't blame someone for not believe, but if they then go "ahhh, I was wrong all along. I see what you're getting at. Cheers Jesus." Do we get in?

And also, is it wrong to only consider this whole process just incase it ends up being true and just incase we might go to hell?
"


Yes ofcourse I have considered all that you said, I didn't just decide to believe one day without any reasons. And yes I totally agree with you, salvation does sound stupid to those who don't believe it. They mock and laugh at it but I've seen and experienced my self that it is not stupid or false. But rather it makes total sense. And yeah anyone can be saved at anytime, or at least before their death or the 2nd Coming, the choice is to be made while the person is still living.
nuclear glory
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 04:05 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 04:09
Just because God had foresight into the future and the choices that we would make, does not mean that he modified it to be that way. As he tells us "he's not willing that any should perish"

This goes back to something very fundamental. After God created everything, did he know in advance that man would sin? The evidence I've found suggests that he did know. And he already knew the outcome of it all as well. As, notice that when man fell, he immediately gave a promise of the coming Messiah. God had a plan.

And if you look at the very very end of Revelation, you'll find that it's very similar to the front of Genesis. The only difference being that all the turmoil and pain will behind God's people forever.

Knowing that God's plans for us are "good and not evil" why would we choose not to accept the winning plan of God?

As for the ELS codes, if they modified them and randomly picked letters out until they got the words they wanted, then it wouldn't be ELS at all and wouldn't have made it in the front door of the statistical society. Nor would it have attained the credibility that it has. If you haven't, I challenge you to get the software, search for the codes, and examine that the program is not randomly picking out letters, and see for yourself that it is true ELS. There are screenshots of the Hebrew scripture online with the letters circled in red, so you can count the letters for yourself.

@Fallout
Think not that someone will deny Jesus all of their life, and when they die they'll repent and the Lord will let them in. The Bible teaches about this specifically even to people who claim to be religious and for God, but in reality never knew the Lord.

Here's the verse:

Matthew - Chapter 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Everything in scripture says that it's black & white. Either you believe it or you don't. Many people, in the church even, are double minded into thinking that they can believe anything and the Lord will let them in, but that is contrary to scripture, as is apparent from above. If the Lord doesn't know you, you're not getting in.

And to know him isn't complicated or ritualistic, you just ask him to save you and cleanse you from your sins, and your in. (But this must be done with through a real change of heart)
greenlig
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 04:05
Pincho, it was predetirmined.

God created some men for Heaven and some for Hell, just like a potter makes a pot to hold wine and another to hold dirt.

I got best and fairest for soccer WHOOHOOO!
Brandon
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 04:26
Yes greenlig is correct, God has predestined those who are in Christ to life everlasting, but we must also remember that we have the choice if we are in Christ or not.

You can say, "I will flip a coin and if it lands on heads I'll give it to you, and if it lands on tails, I'll keep it." Now, you flip the coin, and lets say that it lands on heads. Now am I forced to give you the coin, or do I have a choice to give it to you or keep it?
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 04:29
What is so good about Heaven if Hitler can get in just by believing? Heaven would be a mess.
Brandon
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 04:33
No one can get in by just believing.
The Devil and demons believe it all, but they shudder when they think of it. If someone says that they believe but then go off and be a Hitler, then they don't truly believe. God knows the heart, there is no deceiving him.
nuclear glory
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 04:40
Hitler would of had to have a change of heart and accepted Jesus. And God knows if you're heart has changed for real. From what I've learned about Hitler; repentance, and the salvation from Jesus (a Jew) wasn't anywhere in his mind.

When your heart changes, you become a new person inside. It would of been a wonderful thing if Hitler in his last few moments would have seen it all at once, and broke before God, and asked for salvation. But, from what I can tell, he didn't.

And so is it for many like Hitler. They get so far gone in their lusts and wickedness, that the idea of turning to God appalls them.

And being that God knows the real status of your heart with Him, he's not going to let people in to mess up Heaven.
HZence
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 04:48
Quote: "You can say, "I will flip a coin and if it lands on heads I'll give it to you, and if it lands on tails, I'll keep it." Now, you flip the coin, and lets say that it lands on heads. Now am I forced to give you the coin, or do I have a choice to give it to you or keep it? "


That's a terrible example. If we're talking about the same word here - destiny - than you can't choose it. It's "God's" plan for you, it has to happen; you don't make the decision. This is one reason why the bible contradicts itself...

Team EOD :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
Brandon
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 04:56
Yes I believe that God knows what will happen, but my point was that we still choose what we do. And that is not a contradiction. But if you think so then can you point it out to me why you do?
nuclear glory
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 04:58 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 05:06
On predestination, consider this scripture:

Romans 8
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice here at verse 29 - "For whom he did foreknow"

This is very important. Because this means that he knew if you would choose to be in Christ before you were even created. And because he knew that they would accept him, then he predestined them to be conformed to the image of his Son.

These words are very important, and if left out, can look like a contradiction, when in fact, there is no contradiction.

EDIT:
The idea that God chose (or made) who would go to hell and who would go to heaven is contrary to scripture.

However, because God knew you in advance, he already knows who's going to send themselves to hell, and who's going to accept his Son and go to Heaven.
Fallout
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 05:06
So if we are predestined, and God does exist, then if I'm destined to get into heaven, I'm destined to have a change of heart before I die?

That's good enough for me. I'll be myself, until the day I die, and if I'm destined for Heaven, I'll have my predestined change of heart, and if I'm destined for Hell, I'll just be my good old self, and burn when I die.

Insiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!
nuclear glory
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 05:16 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 06:03
It is not so.

He did not predestinate that you would have a change of heart. He knows in advance if there will come a time in your life when you will accept the truth and have a change of heart. This is different from "predestination" in which he would determine for you. This makes it your choice. And being God, he already knows what your choice will be.

And should you choose to accept Christ, he already knew you would make that choice. And He has prepared for it.

However, if you choose to ignore God and play games with your salvation, and send yourself to Hell, God already knew this in advance as well.

The choice remains yours, but nothing you do will surprise God.
Ian T
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 06:27
'Pincho, it was predetirmined.

God created some men for Heaven and some for Hell, just like a potter makes a pot to hold wine and another to hold dirt.'

'he already knows what your choice will be.'

Interesting.

As Fallout said, good enough for me. If nothing I do will surprise god, then I have absolutely no control whatsoever over my fate-- either I'll go to heaven or hell and my actions will have no effect on it.

Carefree kind of philosophy you've got going there

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
Arrow
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 06:29
The code is foolish, it's completely open to perception, I've seen it used to state the anti-chirt is Bill Gates and the current Pope.

Satan can't be pure evil, he was once an angel, no matter his sions, he'll retain a faction of his old ways. anyone esle notice the message of confomace in that story?


DDR is the best form of exercise money can buy.
Ian T
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 06:45
'Satan can't be pure evil, he was once an angel, no matter his sions, he'll retain a faction of his old ways. anyone esle notice the message of confomace in that story?'

Arguable. Yes, it's rather obvious... follow the mainstream, never doubt your set ways. But that's why the strongest Christians are usually conservatives, isn't it-- it's hardly surprising or hidden.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
nuclear glory
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 06:52
@Mouse
I did not state the first set of text you quoted, just to prevent any confusion.

Because you cannot surprise God does not mean that you do not have choice. It means that he already knows your decision and where you will send yourself.

Carefree is not a word I would use to describe it. I take this seriously. It is a serious topic. And one that pains me when people reject Christ in the face of so much evidence.

@Arrow
Take or leave the ELS codes. It's your choice to be ignorant toward them because of an event where someone else misused them and/or lied about them.

If you acknowledge the existence of Satan and believe God's word as true, this is what scripture says:

John 8:44
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. "

The Devil cannot be saved and will not be saved. No man is beyond the point of salvation lest he be in hell. The Devil remains on the Earth at this time. If man can be saved, and the Devil cannot, then it is not possible for man to equal or enlarge upon the evil of Satan. The Devil is evil in the most extreme form. That is why us, as mankind, cannot perceive evil that extreme.
Brandon
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 06:56
Gods ways are higher than ours, he knows everything. But you still have a choice, it is not true that God has predetermined who will go to hell and who will go to heaven. I find that no where in scripture As NuclearGlory stated, it says that he foreknew those who would accept Christ. And the ones that he knows will accept Christ, they have been predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.

Just because God knows the future doesn't mean we don't decide what we do or not. And you can go in circles trying to understand this simple fact and be stuck on it for the rest of your life, or you can do as you wish and just forget it. On a personal note, after running in circles for most of my life, I have chosen to believe.
Ian T
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 07:06
'or you can do as you wish and just forget it.'

That is the very epitome of the other 50% of the reason I am strongly set against the Christian religion-- ignorance. The religion supports blindly following their beliefs, shuns openmindedness, and frowns upon questioning ones religion. A little example-- the world 'witch', which actually came into use a short time (century or so) before the massive witch trials, simply means 'wise person'. Wise people who knew herbs and had healing powers, who were different, who weren't mainstream and normal. So they killed them.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
greenlig
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 07:07
I'd argue that we do not have a choice in our being saved. Once we are called by God, and he has put it in our hearts, we can be saved, but it by no merit of our own choosing. This would make God powerless. The moment we give man any of the credit to his salvation, whether directly or no, God becomes pwerless, because if his power is removed 1 iota, it is completely gone.

Rom. 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

That last statement says it pretty much.

Saying that we accept God is also saying that that is our first step to savaltion. We are therefore the instagators of our salvation. If we are inherantly evil as the Bible states "there is none that doeth good, no, not one", then this act of accepting God is good. If it is dne of our own accored BEFORE we are saved, how is that possible if we cannot do good? I'd put forward that the Holy spirit puts it in us.

Rom. 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

here is some verses that state hoe God came to us before we accept him.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Eph. 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.

1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Tit. 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.


btw, im a veeeeeeeeeery conservative christian.
reagrds,
greenlig

I got best and fairest for soccer WHOOHOOO!
greenlig
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 07:11
It is condemned in the Bible to associate with "familiar spirits", and to my knowledge, witches had a communication with them. I read an article in the paper about it recently.
regards
greenlig

I got best and fairest for soccer WHOOHOOO!
Brandon
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 07:28
Quote: "
That is the very epitome of the other 50% of the reason I am strongly set against the Christian religion-- ignorance. The religion supports blindly following their beliefs, shuns openmindedness, and frowns upon questioning ones religion. A little example-- the world 'witch', which actually came into use a short time (century or so) before the massive witch trials, simply means 'wise person'. Wise people who knew herbs and had healing powers, who were different, who weren't mainstream and normal. So they killed them.
"


Are you saying that all christians are ignorant? Can you tell me where you got this information about what Christianity supports?

The fact of the matter is, you either believe or you don't, it's that simple. Yes I agree that in the name of Jesus, people have done some very ignorant and horrible acts, but this does not speak of true Christianity, which as I said before, is a relationship.

It doesn't shun openmindedness, it calls sin sin, and it doesn't change to fit into our changing Politically Correct views, it remains the same, and you see this as shunning openmindedness?
greenlig
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 07:33
Nice point Brandon

I got best and fairest for soccer WHOOHOOO!
Ian T
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 07:37
Well, see, it puts a price tag on it labeled 'the truth' and labels the stuff it dosen't like 'sin', and since you aren't allowed to question it, you simply state that sin and truth came before openmindedness and closemindedness-- which I disagree with because I am allowed to question it. It's an endless loop, really.

Regardless, I've made my point... while I certainly do not support Christianity, I do support freedom to worship as anyone should so choose, so I'll leave it at that.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
PoHa!84
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 07:45 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 07:47
Quote: "it puts a price tag on it labeled 'the truth' and labels the stuff it dosen't like 'sin'"


Really? "it?" now Christianity is an it? How degrading. Anyways, Christianity doesn't price tag things "it doesn't like" and things "it does like." More like things God doesn't like are sin and things that are the truth (Jesus died for us, etc...).

Destroy you with my mind, I could!

Ian T
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 07:50
Sorry, but I just have to reply to this...

'Really? "it?" now Christianity is an it? How degrading.'

Is it a He? Or a She? No? In that case, what am I supposed to refer to it with but an 'it'? I might call a massive marble mansion that I just spent my life fortune on an 'it', but that's not degrading. Nor was my use of that word. Do I have to use its name every sentance I refer to it in?

Let's see...

'It doesn't shun openmindedness, it calls sin sin'

Is Brendan being degrading too? No, he's being respectful, he has honest faith in his religion.


In other words, that's a bloody stupid thing to post .

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
PoHa!84
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 07:56
Alright, maybe I misread...

::quietly withdraws the "degrading" statement::

But I noticed you didn't respond to the rest of it...

Destroy you with my mind, I could!

Brandon
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 07:56 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 07:58
hi greenlig thx ,
I hear what you are saying, but, I didn't see any evidence saying that we don't have a choice, check this out:

If I wanted to, like right, now I could choose to walk away from God. I could say "I want to go to hell", and then go. And it's true, God won't stop me from doing that if I chose to.

Try to look at it sorta like this. Lets say you have a man walking alongside a cliff. Lets say this man gets saved, now there is a 4ft wall on the edge of the cliff to keep him from slipping and falling off. But he still has the choice to hop over the wall if he wants to.


BTW I'll probally be silent for a while, I've got some programming to do, *yawns*
It's cool if you wanna email me.


Ian T
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 08:03
'But I noticed you didn't respond to the rest of it...'

As I have already said, I am withdrawing from the argument-- I've made my point (read the 'endless loop' part?) and I'm not going to keep following along the same path arguing something like religion that one cannot really have solid evidence to prove (visa vi faith).

Best of luck to you all .

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
PoHa!84
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 08:20
Heh... alright, Mouse.

God Bless.

Destroy you with my mind, I could!

Neophyte
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 10:23 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 10:24
Wow. This thread got huge. And FAST. I've been browsing these forums for almost a year now and I've never seen a thread get so big so quick.

Anyway...

@nuclearglory

I've just been browsing the posts in here and I thought I should point this out.

"As for mankind writing the scripture, the scripture itself tells us that God works through the men who wrote the Bible, going as far as telling them letter by letter what to write. Again, this seems as a reinforced delusion, however, throughout the Old Testament people began to unlock "codes" of the scripture. The codes were founding using an "ELS" system. In short, it you a number (5 for example) and you pick a position in the Hebrew text, and it would take that letter and record it, then move ahead 5 letters and record the letter, move ahead 5 letters, etc... And they began to find complete words and phrases (Note: this was done using the original Hebrew text, which was not translated or modified) The number of codes they found make it mathematically impossible that they are there on accident. And what's even more interesting, is that that many codes are prophetic. Some of the codes found are:

"America in Iraq"
"Scud B"
"Intelligent Weapon"
"Hitler"
"

The whole bible code thing is bunk. Read this review and judge for yourself.

http://www.ams.org/notices/199708/review-allyn.pdf

Basically, the whole thing is so shifty that you could make prophecies with Moby Dick if you wanted to.

http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html

To quote the website:
Quote: "No laws of probability are violated here, or even stretched a little. That is also true of Drosnin's book, which is the whole point of this page. Once you learn Drosnin's rules (none) and the method (a bit of messy programming) you can find things like this anywhere. The reason it looks amazing is that the number of possible things to look for, and the number of places to look, is much greater than you imagine.
"


"and tons of others. Oftentimes they don't know what to search for until something happens, so they find the codes after the fact."

I'll admit this made me chuckle a little bit. Did it ever occur to you that they modify the "code" to find what they want? Isn't it a little convient that they find all of these things after the fact?

"note: Before you scoff at this and say "they added the codes after the fact" consider this: The codes are being taken from the original, unmodified, Hebrew text. And if they tried to add something, it would throw off all of the other codes. "

Not if they modified these "codes" to account for the change. Do you have any examples of them using these "codes" and finding things like "America in Iraq" before they happen?

I'd go into more detail but I'm pressed for time. I haven't even read all of these posts yet.
Joeyjoejoe Shabadoo
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 12:10
Well this thread has grown really fast.

Just stating my points as im on the christian side too:

*Bibe code is absolute BS, im sorry nope God gave us "free will" so there cant really be "fate". (though there can be events in life that push the person into doing something like missing the bus by sleeping in etc)

Thats all...carry on.

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greenlig
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 12:15
yeha, i dont think the bible codes are true either sorry.

regards
greenlig

I got best and fairest for soccer WHOOHOOO!
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 15:57
Well the codes were always going to be an attempt to make people believe in God. Mainly because there is no proof of God, or of the miracles. Crying statues... water seeping from statues, religious people grab whatever they can to convince themselves that they are right. If you are religious then you have nothing but faith. It's not a safe environment to put yourself in, it is a nieve enviroment to trust something from faith alone.

Example:
Sure if you give me that £5000 I'll give you £7000 back in a few days. You may not know me but watch this, as I get water from a statue you hand me the £5000.

Pincho.
Joeyjoejoe Shabadoo
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"Mainly because there is no proof of God, or of the miracles. "

Theres no proof that there isnt a God.

"Crying statues... water seeping from statues, religious people grab whatever they can to convince themselves that they are right. "

Agreed, most of that IS crap that some arse does, like crop circles (how many people belive in aliens, or had the thought that is just might be real)

"If you are religious then you have nothing but faith."

If you arnt religios you have nothing.

"It's not a safe environment to put yourself in, it is a nieve enviroment to trust something from faith alone"

Agreed that Colts are not safe, but I dont see anything not safe about a proper religion.

"Example:
Sure if you give me that £5000 I'll give you £7000 back in a few days. You may not know me but watch this, as I get water from a statue you hand me the £5000."

WTF seriously explain for us n00bs.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 17:07
Quote: "

1/ Theres no proof that there isnt a God


2/ If you arnt religios you have nothing.

3/ Agreed that Colts are not safe, but I dont see anything not safe about a proper religion.

"Example:
Sure if you give me that £5000 I'll give you £7000 back in a few days. You may not know me but watch this, as I get water from a statue you hand me the £5000."

4/ WTF seriously explain for us n00bs.
"


1/ To want proof that something doesn't exist shows a lack of basic understanding of your physical environment.

2/ I have knowledge of the truth, my solid foundation, the Earth.

3/ Proper religion might depend on God to save the Earth from a meteor strike, rather than let scientists build a device to stop the impending danger.

4/ Faith portrayed as a human trait in a naive person when faced with a human rather than a god.

Pincho.
Joeyjoejoe Shabadoo
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 17:31
"1/ To want proof that something doesn't exist shows a lack of basic understanding of your physical environment."

Same with aliens, there is almost no proof that they exist but alot of people think they could.

"3/ Proper religion might depend on God to save the Earth from a meteor strike, rather than let scientists build a device to stop the impending danger."

Well we would build the device anyways if God wanted the device to work that it would. God told Noah that the world was going to flood so Noah bult the ark.

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Arrow
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 17:42 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 17:44
Quote: "If you arnt religios you have nothing."
Just because aren't part of an espblished religion doesn't meant you have no beliefs, you can stiill be spiryual without Religion.

For once, Mouse and I agree. I've met quite a few open-minded chirstains, but as an establishment it's very closed-minded. Hundreds of preists left when they aloud women to take the cloth, now they are threayiong it again on the gay issue. Comment like the above only inforce the idea that Chirstains are closed-minded. The fact you killed thousands of people over religion kinda hurts your case too. The first three Commandment are all about close-mindedness.

Quote: "Well we would build the device anyways if God wanted the device to work that it would. God told Noah that the world was going to flood so Noah bult the ark."
Oh my god, (no pun intended) that's the most foolish argument ever. I got a stone that protects me from tigers, I know it works cause there are no tigers here.

It's realy starting to bug me that I'm joining the athist argument here (I hate extreams, remember, nuetral), can we hear from some non-chirstain, non-aithist views?


DDR is the best form of exercise money can buy.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 17:50 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 17:51
Quote: ""3/ Proper religion might depend on God to save the Earth from a meteor strike, rather than let scientists build a device to stop the impending danger."

Well we would build the device anyways if God wanted the device to work that it would. God told Noah that the world was going to flood so Noah bult the ark.
"


That quote actually strengthens my argument. "God told Noah.." But what if he didn't tell Noah? Who has been told about a meteor hitting the Earth by God? Not that it is my only example. There are lots of examples where religion has been dangerous. Wars, and hatred, and stonings, and Devil worship. Remember that Devil worship is directly related to the Bible just as much as Christianity. The Devil is part of the Bible. You could say that Christians created the Devil.

Pincho.
Joeyjoejoe Shabadoo
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 17:51
Arrow, I want to buy that rock of yours.

"Just because aren't part of an espblished religion doesn't meant you have no beliefs, you can stiill be spiryual without Religion."

Ok then so you saying that people that arnt of a religion belive what they want.
So than a religion is a group of people that belive what they want.

"can we hear from some non-chirstain, non-aithist views?"

Erm it will still be religion against aithist. The only difference is that most of you dont know as much about hindu or whatever so it will be harder for you to back up your claims.

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Arrow
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 17:58
Not so fast Mr. Joeyjoejoe Shabadoo (that sounds soooooo cool ). Half of all the athists I've met or talked to only hate Chirstian ideals, they don't care one way or another toward other religions. I thinks it's becuase Chirstainty has oppressed people alot in the last 2000 years. I kinda get the feeling that it's a moral issue not to be Christian, kinda like it's a moral issue not to be part of the KKK or Nazi party.


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 18:01
I think that too.
Joeyjoejoe Shabadoo
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 18:05 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 18:06
okok

Well I dont like all things about christianity too (like the extrimity of cathloics and boring church sessions) but you cant expect it all to be good. Personally I dont hate athists and still am not fully agreeing with the "burn in hell if you dont belive" becasue technically when you get to heaven/hell youll belive.

"Not so fast Mr. Joeyjoejoe Shabadoo "
Try saying it fast 10 times.

Ok then I was getting tired of arguind about Christianity, next time make a thread called:

"what would you do if you were vishnuu?"

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the_winch
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 19:45 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 19:47
Quote: "Half of all the athists I've met or talked to only hate Chirstian ideals"


I don't think it's just christian ideals it's the whole organised relignion thing. Most people don't know a lot about other religions. Here with all the racists foreign people with other religions don't openly talk about their own religions with just anybody. If people where as exposed to the other religions they would proberly be just as hated.

Personally I know that we don't know the answers. There might not even be answers. Anyone that claims they know is only guessing, science makes no claims to know just offers theories based on observation, it's the whole claiming to know think that puts me of religion.
nuclear glory
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 21:22
@Neophyte
Greets. I humbly acknowledge your findings and research on the matter of the ELS codes. I should have personally tested it further to verify that it was tried and true before bringing it into a conversation of such importance. Thank you for your post.

@Everyone
The rest of the material I have presented is accurate to the best of my knowledge, if you can find flaw I want to know.

Furthermore, to date, I have not been presented with an error of the scripture. And if the scripture cannot be broken, how would it be that it was made by men?

The scripture clearly states that God will preserve us a Word. If the scripture is truly from God, then nobody will be able to break it.

Psalm 12
6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 21:31
Quote: "Furthermore, to date, I have not been presented with an error of the scripture. And if the scripture cannot be broken, how would it be that it was made by men?

The scripture clearly states that God will preserve us a Word. If the scripture is truly from God, then nobody will be able to break it.
"


Huh you've lost me now. What scripture?

Pincho.

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